I'm not sure if the firt thread actually got posted or not. It was not political or designed to elicit political views. It was mere a civilian looking for the perspective of those who served.
There seems to be some real disconnect between top military leadership and their governing bodies and possibly civilians overseeing them. I was hoping for some perspective on the Captain's actions, his firing, and the crew's reaction to him leaving, which was admonished by the Navy Secretary, etc.
Also, what does it mean he was fired? I understand he was relieved of his command. But, I haven't seen any mention of a discharge, so was he simply reassigned to a desk job?
The carrier is one node in a multilevel defense system
If you were to attack a carrier, the number of possible firepower system than could be bought against any chosen target within 24 four hours is significant.
Think of the problem as someone has to decide to attack the USA not just the carrier. Missiles, rockets, strategic bombers, submarines, bombers of all different kinds and the locales to respond from present a huge war gaming problem for any attacker.
Its part of a system not the system. If you are on one then it feels like the core of the system. If you attack its one vehicle for projecting lethal response.
all these force projection systems have pros and cons and strengths and weaknesses. And carriers have a range of missions...for some of which they are ideally suited
That's for starters.
No doubt. That's why I stated that the carrier is more important to us for its other impact more so than the military capabilities it brings to the table. Not trying to state that there are hierarchy in what the US willing to lose, but there is in fact one. I'll use Iran as an example. We hit a key Iranian leader in Iraq. They retaliate against our ground forces, and that can slowly escalate tension. But if they decided to go after and actually sink or moderately damage our carrier, it's game on.
Carrier has become our symbol of military might that is to be protected at any cost. And while I believe that its actual military utility is diminishing, it stands for something far more than the aircrafts it can launch. That's why when a situation becomes heated anywhere in the world, our government announcing that it's deploying a carrier battle group always has such a significant impact on that situation.
So while carrier itself is a diminishing military capability, its symbolism and importance to our strategy and policies is still probably greater than any other military asset.
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will follow but the Captain being relieved was the right move whatever his motives were. I think so many sailors cheering shows a ship not focussed on the mission first and reflects poorly on the Captain.
China has spent tremendously on its military in the last couple decades. It will be interesting to see the world response economically from Covid 19 on China and how that impacts their spending in the future.
I don't understand why people keep arguing that mission comes first and if you take care of your people, it's the wrong thing to do. Of course mission accomplishments come first. Nowhere, your most important job is to take care of the people you lead so that they are combat effective. No great leader ever succeeded because they put their men and women second to the mission as someone posted previously in this thread regarding some dumbassed shit like "mission first, people second."
Captain Crozier made his bed and he is lying in it, and there is nothing that will change that. However, when you blindly always put the mission ahead of the welfare of your people, you are going to fail as a leader. You practice judgement and prudence to make the call when the mission is not worth the cost of your people. That's what leaders do. Whether you agree or disagree with the Captain's decision is immaterial at this point, but spare me the shortsighted nonsense about mission always trumping the welfare of those being led.
Where did I say that you don't take care of the sailors? All I said is that is was right he was relieved and that the cheering can also be further evidence in the big picture of things that perhaps they did not understand this which is a reflection of his leadership.
And I think there is a lot of evidence that failed states and rouge actors and places of chaos are a more frequent threat than the actual actions of large states where the elite have a rent extraction system they wish to preserve.
for those states and the majority in the world, the arrival of tons of missiles and 90 state of the art planes armed to the teeth and flown by leading edge trained pilots taking off 24/7 if need be - changes the calculus even for fanatics and psychopaths
That's the thing. You make it seem like their cheering him is another sign of his failing as a leader. I am 100% sure that he understands the importance of mission accomplishment far better than you and I. And I'm certain that he made a calculated decision to put his people before the mission based on a profound time spent thinking things over as he most definitely knew that this may be a career killer. So while I agree with you that his firing was warranted, you make it sound like it was a failing on his part to make this decision while I believe that he made a judgement call that something was more important than his carrier being out at sea or his career.
You don't have to be liked as a leader, but you should be respected as one. Some people can't tell the difference. I'm sure that his people respected him as a leader because they felt that he had their welfare and best interest as priority through these extraordinary circumstances.
only 7 countries have more planes of the same generation than a US Carrier.
Doubt any have equivalent communication, navigation, firing systems in the hands of equivalent pilots
And I think there is a lot of evidence that failed states and rouge actors and places of chaos are a more frequent threat than the actual actions of large states where the elite have a rent extraction system they wish to preserve.
for those states and the majority in the world, the arrival of tons of missiles and 90 state of the art planes armed to the teeth and flown by leading edge trained pilots taking off 24/7 if need be - changes the calculus even for fanatics and psychopaths
The new vertical launch systems on the Arleighs and cruisers add quite a punch without risking pilots' lives. I believe an Arleigh Burke can hold up to 96 cruise missile(although the package is mixed and tailored per mission.) That is quite a bit of fire power in and of itself.
when one looks into it...a carrier group is a ton of force moving into an area with a strike radius that approaches 1000 miles.
ridiculous
Warmth, feeding children, food, health care, clothing and blankets for billion all depend on the daily line from Ras Tanura
And that competitive advantage puts us about 20 Trillion ahead of any other nation
only 7 countries have more planes of the same generation than a US Carrier.
Doubt any have equivalent communication, navigation, firing systems in the hands of equivalent pilots
I'm definitely not arguing that our military forces (especially the carriers) aren't absolutely awesome and powerful. However, in this times when asymmetric tactics, techniques, and procedures as well as ever increasing availability of sophisticated technologies at the cheap are making rogue players and near peer adversaries able to pose non-traditional threat to our forces, a carrier becomes a huge target that may become vulnerable to threats that we haven't prepared for.
The small fast boats I'm Hormuz have become a huge issue for our forces, hence the use of Marine LAVs on decks of amphibious assault ships when they're traversing or floating in the straits. Now think about what we've seen of synchronized drones for Olympics and other events where hundreds of drones can do crazy maneuvers. Make them weaponized, increase their range, and they can overwhelm the defensive systems of any ship we have. The verticle launch system shooting the most advanced surface to air missiles wouldn't be able to stop them, nor can our CIWS on ships. A few of these getting through and hitting the deck of a carrier will turn that into a floating parking lot.
And we're not even talking to some of these Chinese and Russian made coastal defense missiles that are becoming so leathal that you can't come within 200 or more miles from the coast without putting your assets in danger.
These are conversations we're having even at my field grade level at Command and Staff College as we talk about how we (USMC) can better support the Navy with its anti-access/area denial threats. It’s definitely a scary time to be a Navy commander.
Dumbass IMO created a traffic separation scheme just of the Iranian coast where the Northbound lane was 9 miles off their coast and the Southbound was just about inside 12 miles. So you traveled well inside their waters for awhile. I used that separation zone once. Then thought about my anti-piracy protection team(former NSW) and if the bastids ever tried to board us while in those waters how they may try to detain them for questioning. Never used it again.
Warmth, feeding children, food, health care, clothing and blankets for billion all depend on the daily line from Ras Tanura
100% in agreement. While we have the ability to destroy any military or nation, we are best served to make them respect our strength and resolve (or at least be scared of facing us) to maintain stability. But the scary part is that we are moving towards revisionist history where our near peer adversaries will seek to change global calculus against our interests.
Went to the nurse, said it felt like a heart attack. She had me raise my arm up, and asked if it hurt way more -- it did, and she was like "I think your long is being collapsed".
Got rushed to the ER, had a chest tube put in, was told to wait 2-3 weeks to have the air come out (it was a burst alveoli).
That didn't help, so I had to have invasive surgery to chop off 33% of my left lung. I'm at risk as fuck. I will likely not come back from pneumonia that requires a respirator.
I'm at risk with a "pre-existing condition". I'm 31 years old (as of just one month ago) with a ton of family and friends that love me, and definitely not "at risk" person due to my "own choices". I'm not some casualty you can just write off, and it's really fucking crazy for you to say that type of shit.
It's not like everyone that's met me after high school knows about my partial lung, and I can guarantee that there's plenty of people you personally know that have pre-existing conditions which you DON'T know about, that are 100% not their fault.
Once again your doing your game of twisting factual info.
You have zero ideas if they had conditions or not. Yet you sit here and state unequivocally that they did with zero basis of anything other than this warped theory you have about people not going to a Dr when they might have a condition because you know a few people who do that.
Just like the claim, you can smoke dope as a Nuke on a carrier based on what you saw years ago and nothing comes from it.
You keep demanding stats and facts yet you present none of your own. It's getting laughable at this point
I'm not twisting factual info. You are taking stats without any context. You have no idea that they for a fact had no pre existing conditions because of the uniqueness of the American healthcare system. I did 8 weeks of training on this for a healthcare IT company I worked Sales for. The vast majority of people go to the Dr only when they absolutely need to. This in turn makes our health care more expensive. Private insurers don't give a shit because they only care about their profits at the end of the day quarter by quarter and they just increase premiums and deductibles year after year. Which becomes increasingly expensive as our population becomes unhealthier. There seems to be some awareness now about what is and isn't healthy and I've noticed the amount of items that aren't made with total bullshit at grocery stores has gone from a couple items storewide to every food vertical.
There is a huge push in medicare/medicaid for something called MIPS. Part of this program is to push preventative health because its cheaper. It isn't some mystery that people under the age of 40 rarely go to the damn doctor because essentially you are paying out of pocket for visits.
This was 10 years ago when people were lining up to join the military, and they were force discharging people out because they didn't advance past E5. I was in a temp assignment with a few of those bummed out bastards and they all had gold stripes (never went on restriction/got in trouble). Most them weren't the brightest bulbs, but that would absolutely suck because the only reason to reenlist is to do 20 and get the pension unless you have some sweet situation/rating/MOS.
Even then it was hit or miss whether they would get kicked out for weed. Scores for nukes continually drop. It's the harder vocation to fill because people smart people do some research and realize most the bullshit they sell you on is exactly that. 100,000 dollar job out of the Navy was one of them. What they leave out is you generally need to move out to the middle of nowhere outside of an expensive place to get even close to that. More like 70k in South Jersey somewhere if I remember right. And thats after 6 years, you have no 4 year degree to fall back on, and your technical skills aren't very transferrable. And that is after 6 years of suck which I was able to find from research on the internet. Pretty much the worst job in the Navy and not close to worth it for the exit ops. The people they are looking for generally have better opps, even within the military, and see through the bullshit they are getting sold.
Shit if deck department had that type of information I sure as shit would not have signed up for that and would have signed the AECF contract they gave me. I didn't like the idea of signing for six, was dead set on doing cryptonetworks/intel, and figured I'm like the perfect candidate for the military outside the fact I'm a bit of an independent thinker/freebird. Crush my ASVAB and physical tests though, and the recruiters, and others throughout the boot camp process, told me I could pick any job I wanted to at 6 months with a good review. One guy looked at my paperwork and started laughing, he's like why you going in undes. All turned out to be bullshit though. And I wasn't close to the only one in a similar situation. Give smart people no hope, no goals to work towards, and it creates a very toxic work environment especially when they were sold a bag of bullshit. The recruiter doesn't give a fuck though because he doesn't have to deal with it.
Went to the nurse, said it felt like a heart attack. She had me raise my arm up, and asked if it hurt way more -- it did, and she was like "I think your long is being collapsed".
Got rushed to the ER, had a chest tube put in, was told to wait 2-3 weeks to have the air come out (it was a burst alveoli).
That didn't help, so I had to have invasive surgery to chop off 33% of my left lung. I'm at risk as fuck. I will likely not come back from pneumonia that requires a respirator.
I'm at risk with a "pre-existing condition". I'm 31 years old (as of just one month ago) with a ton of family and friends that love me, and definitely not "at risk" person due to my "own choices". I'm not some casualty you can just write off, and it's really fucking crazy for you to say that type of shit.
It's not like everyone that's met me after high school knows about my partial lung, and I can guarantee that there's plenty of people you personally know that have pre-existing conditions which you DON'T know about, that are 100% not their fault.
Dude context. We are talking about people in the military here. I'm sorry to hear about your situation, but there was no way the military would allow you in. If that type of shit happened while you were in, they medical board you out. And suffice to say, yes you are at risk from no fault of your own, but you are an outlier. Yes, there are sick people that are sick from no fault of their own, but when they are talking about diabetes and high blood pressure, these are preventable diseases.
And that competitive advantage puts us about 20 Trillion ahead of any other nation
I'm in, as you like to say, violent agreement with you. Explaining to other sailors that just because we are technically fighting a war over oil (that is a rallying cry of the detractors) that doesn't make us the bad guys. I just felt a much better use of our resources that were spent on that went to green energy so we can get away from that god forsaken place that refuses to move into a more liberal, free open thinking society.
I point out the goal is not oil...the goal is stability.
There is not social justice for billions until there is stability.
Ronnie, I am familiar with the new Marine direction and in full agreement for all the reasons stated.
( what is the vulnerability of a swarm of drones? The nexus of its originating signals and coordination?). My point is Im pretty sure we can hopscotch new threats defensively and offensively.
I wouldn't want to be playing anyone else's cards right now.
Good night all
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preserves our status as the worlds reserve currency.
And that competitive advantage puts us about 20 Trillion ahead of any other nation
I'm in, as you like to say, violent agreement with you. Explaining to other sailors that just because we are technically fighting a war over oil (that is a rallying cry of the detractors) that doesn't make us the bad guys. I just felt a much better use of our resources that were spent on that went to green energy so we can get away from that god forsaken place that refuses to move into a more liberal, free open thinking society.
Sort of tangential to related to you talking to your fellow sailors, I've had some interesting interactions with my civilian friends. A number of my friends (and some great friends) from high school asked me back before 2011 if I felt like deploying to Iraq (not so much Afghanistan though...strangely) was a mistake on my part. I know what they are trying to get at in a polite manner since many were against our invasion of Iraq and hated the president at the time. My answer to them always in a polite but nonchalant manner was that I was too low on the totem pole to worry about anything other than ensuring that my Marines were taken care of and that I accomplished the mission on the ground, which was to conduct counterinsurgency/counterterrorism mission while working with the Iraqi people. I deflected saying that as a Lieutenant and Captain, I really had more pressing matter to focus on than figuring out geopolitical matters. They always seemed so let down, especially since as a fellow liberal (there are some of us Jarheads, who are liberals), they expected me to validate their feelings and opinions.
Ok...so that wasn't too related, but I thought you would find it sort of humorous.
I point out the goal is not oil...the goal is stability.
There is not social justice for billions until there is stability.
Ronnie, I am familiar with the new Marine direction and in full agreement for all the reasons stated.
( what is the vulnerability of a swarm of drones? The nexus of its originating signals and coordination?). My point is Im pretty sure we can hopscotch new threats defensively and offensively.
I wouldn't want to be playing anyone else's cards right now.
Good night all
Yes, with enough focus, we can most definitely come up with means to defend against any threat. But you know how lumbering we are when it comes to putting our focus on something that needs to be done. Look at the total disaster that is the Joint Strike Fighter development and procurement. So while I'm sure that we can find a way to counter a swarm of drones by going after the signal, knowing our history, it won't happen until we actually see such a threat and have been stung badly by it (with resulting loss of lives). We have always and still are so enamored with the bright shiny toys that pragmatic approaches and solutions don't necessarily win out, especially if it doesn't have some big dollar benefit to some congressmen and their districts/states.
We are pretty reactive in our military approach, and I'm certain that our next conflict will also be one of reactive nature where we will adjust after the fact instead of actually dictating others to adjust to us.
Have a wonderful evening.
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I had a spontaneous pneumothorax in 11th grade. Was walking down the hallway between classes, bullshitting with my friends, then felt like I got shot.
Went to the nurse, said it felt like a heart attack. She had me raise my arm up, and asked if it hurt way more -- it did, and she was like "I think your long is being collapsed".
Got rushed to the ER, had a chest tube put in, was told to wait 2-3 weeks to have the air come out (it was a burst alveoli).
That didn't help, so I had to have invasive surgery to chop off 33% of my left lung. I'm at risk as fuck. I will likely not come back from pneumonia that requires a respirator.
I'm at risk with a "pre-existing condition". I'm 31 years old (as of just one month ago) with a ton of family and friends that love me, and definitely not "at risk" person due to my "own choices". I'm not some casualty you can just write off, and it's really fucking crazy for you to say that type of shit.
It's not like everyone that's met me after high school knows about my partial lung, and I can guarantee that there's plenty of people you personally know that have pre-existing conditions which you DON'T know about, that are 100% not their fault.
Dude context. We are talking about people in the military here. I'm sorry to hear about your situation, but there was no way the military would allow you in. If that type of shit happened while you were in, they medical board you out. And suffice to say, yes you are at risk from no fault of your own, but you are an outlier. Yes, there are sick people that are sick from no fault of their own, but when they are talking about diabetes and high blood pressure, these are preventable diseases.
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In comment 14867592 Bill2 said:
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preserves our status as the worlds reserve currency.
And that competitive advantage puts us about 20 Trillion ahead of any other nation
I'm in, as you like to say, violent agreement with you. Explaining to other sailors that just because we are technically fighting a war over oil (that is a rallying cry of the detractors) that doesn't make us the bad guys. I just felt a much better use of our resources that were spent on that went to green energy so we can get away from that god forsaken place that refuses to move into a more liberal, free open thinking society.
Sort of tangential to related to you talking to your fellow sailors, I've had some interesting interactions with my civilian friends. A number of my friends (and some great friends) from high school asked me back before 2011 if I felt like deploying to Iraq (not so much Afghanistan though...strangely) was a mistake on my part. I know what they are trying to get at in a polite manner since many were against our invasion of Iraq and hated the president at the time. My answer to them always in a polite but nonchalant manner was that I was too low on the totem pole to worry about anything other than ensuring that my Marines were taken care of and that I accomplished the mission on the ground, which was to conduct counterinsurgency/counterterrorism mission while working with the Iraqi people. I deflected saying that as a Lieutenant and Captain, I really had more pressing matter to focus on than figuring out geopolitical matters. They always seemed so let down, especially since as a fellow liberal (there are some of us Jarheads, who are liberals), they expected me to validate their feelings and opinions.
Ok...so that wasn't too related, but I thought you would find it sort of humorous.
One of my best friends from my old job is a liberal Marine who served in Iraq and we had a similar convo and he had the same response. It was framed differently though - I asked him if, looking back, our country as a whole should have went in. He said in hindsight no, not in the fashion we did - but once he was there, he was was worried about his brothers, and nothing else mattered. He said he ruminated on everything else when back, but at that time, everything else was immaterial
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In comment 14867592 Bill2 said:
I'm in, as you like to say, violent agreement with you. Explaining to other sailors that just because we are technically fighting a war over oil (that is a rallying cry of the detractors) that doesn't make us the bad guys. I just felt a much better use of our resources that were spent on that went to green energy so we can get away from that god forsaken place that refuses to move into a more liberal, free open thinking society.
Sort of tangential to related to you talking to your fellow sailors, I've had some interesting interactions with my civilian friends. A number of my friends (and some great friends) from high school asked me back before 2011 if I felt like deploying to Iraq (not so much Afghanistan though...strangely) was a mistake on my part. I know what they are trying to get at in a polite manner since many were against our invasion of Iraq and hated the president at the time. My answer to them always in a polite but nonchalant manner was that I was too low on the totem pole to worry about anything other than ensuring that my Marines were taken care of and that I accomplished the mission on the ground, which was to conduct counterinsurgency/counterterrorism mission while working with the Iraqi people. I deflected saying that as a Lieutenant and Captain, I really had more pressing matter to focus on than figuring out geopolitical matters. They always seemed so let down, especially since as a fellow liberal (there are some of us Jarheads, who are liberals), they expected me to validate their feelings and opinions.
Ok...so that wasn't too related, but I thought you would find it sort of humorous.
Yeah I can totally understand that. I was kind of in a weird spot because growing up in a place heavily affected by 9/11 and could see the destruction from up my street I got swept up in the pro war furor (happened when I was 15). I fucking hated school and loved the idea of joining the military. My Dad (A Korean War Vet) my dads buddy (few purple hearts) and their friend (MOH winner who I won't name drop)convinced me otherwise. Said if you really still want to do it, graduate college, then go in. Fast forward 3 years and 6 colleges later the messaging soon became when the fuck you going to join the military. And like my father, and his father before him, I joined the military.
Although at that time I was pretty against the war, but figured I could pick any job I want maxing out the ASVAB and PT tests and going in with enough credit to join as an E3. Boy was I wrong and not sure if you play poker, but I got dealt 2-7 offsuit. My military "career" was practically murphy's law in action. Whenever I talk to kids thinking about it though I always give them my number and tell them call me before you sign anything. Not that I would talk them out of it, the opposite sometimes in fact, but at least I'd let them know all the shit that your recruiters don't tell you. I was at a bit of disadvantage because of the massive change the military had just started to go through (similar to the one that happened in the 80's when the drug war was hyped) and the people I could grab advice that were enlisted were mostly ten years older than me and sf.
But while I was in I had a lot of time to think about it, and I don't really think that the war was a mistake in Iraq. It seems like every geopolitical expert in the region that I read about or talked to seemed to be consensus that our exit "plan" didn't even have a marginal chance for success. Shit I'm glad to see Bill2 posting because I read some of that information from him. But when the people in charge were making the right decisions for all the wrong reasons they clearly didn't give a shit about the aftermath. I hate to be cynical, but it truly bothers me that there are people like that out there and they often find themselves in power, because power seems to attract some unsavory characters.
Anyway its always funny to me that people have this stereotype of people in the military as all the same. Yes, it generally more populated by the more conservative side, but it truly was the first place I experienced a total melting pot of American peoples and culture. And I grew up in North Jersey, a melting pot of its own.
Fast forward to 2010, and I had deployed five times (three to Iraq and one to Afghanistan and one to GTMO, Cuba). In some ways, life was pretty uncomplicated and simple since it was basically train up to deploy and then deploy...rinse and repeat over and over again. Minus my one year spent in various MOS schools and training, my deployments and my time away from home training to deploy had me away from family and friends for 40 months out of 80 months I was stationed at Camp Lejeune and Ft. Meade during my active duty time. Eventually my wife (who I had married before my final deployment in 2009) and I agreed that I was done it all, especially if we were going to start a family. Fast forward another 10 years and I've been in the reserves almost as long as I had been on active duty.
My twin brother (West Point grad and Army SF) and I were deployed at the same time twice, with him in Afghanistan and me in Iraq the first time and me in Iraq and him in Afghanistan the second time. Needless to say, our mother did not enjoy our military careers.
As far as your statement that the military is a melting pot, I agree. However, each service definitely has its own personality and quarks. My service is the most conservative of the services, but even then, what I've noticed is that officers make up the larger portion of liberal service members in most services. Usually your NCOs and SNCOs are the most conservative service members.
Am I the only one reminded of this scene in Crimson Tide while reading all the events of this situation?
Court Scene - ( New Window )
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Where did I say that you don't take care of the sailors? All I said is that is was right he was relieved and that the cheering can also be further evidence in the big picture of things that perhaps they did not understand this which is a reflection of his leadership.
That's the thing. You make it seem like their cheering him is another sign of his failing as a leader. I am 100% sure that he understands the importance of mission accomplishment far better than you and I. And I'm certain that he made a calculated decision to put his people before the mission based on a profound time spent thinking things over as he most definitely knew that this may be a career killer. So while I agree with you that his firing was warranted, you make it sound like it was a failing on his part to make this decision while I believe that he made a judgement call that something was more important than his carrier being out at sea or his career.
You don't have to be liked as a leader, but you should be respected as one. Some people can't tell the difference. I'm sure that his people respected him as a leader because they felt that he had their welfare and best interest as priority through these extraordinary circumstances.
Well thank you for so clearly laying out some of the qualities of a leader. I am really not making it seem like anything. He made a mistake and paid a consequence. This does not define the Captain as a leader one way or the other. It is a event in a long and distinguished career.
The cheering can also be seen as the sailors not understanding that he made a mistake which can be seen to reflect the leadership of the ship.
Currently enjoying this show from Korea.
Am I the only one reminded of this scene in Crimson Tide while reading all the events of this situation?
Court Scene - ( New Window )
You're right....about the Lipizzaners. They are from spain.
The cheering can also be seen as the sailors not understanding that he made a mistake which can be seen to reflect the leadership of the ship.
I don't think it's an either/or thing with them cheering for their commander. I'm certain that the vast majority of those cheering understand the importance of their mission yet can appreciate and respect their commander for what they saw in his actions despite it leading to his firing. Let's give those sailors more credit than to just dismiss their cheering as them not understanding that he made a judgement call. You may think it's a mistake, others may think (myself included) he made a value based judgement call. To use it as an indictment on the leadership of the ship without actually having first hand experience of the leadership of the ship is pretty presumptuous.
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I don't think it's an either/or thing with them cheering for their commander. I'm certain that the vast majority of those cheering understand the importance of their mission yet can appreciate and respect their commander for what they saw in his actions despite it leading to his firing. Let's give those sailors more credit than to just dismiss their cheering as them not understanding that he made a judgement call. You may think it's a mistake, others may think (myself included) he made a value based judgement call. To use it as an indictment on the leadership of the ship without actually having first hand experience of the leadership of the ship is pretty presumptuous.
I don't see how you interpret that as anything but a value based judgement call. You don't get to that spot being a dummy or completely ignorant of politics. But I think you may be giving the sailors a bit too much credit. I'm telling you most are cheering him on because they saw a guy sacrifice his own career for them, which is so unheard of in the Navy it's practically non existant, and generally quite the opposite is common. Getting abused or thrown under the bus to advance careers is extremely common in the Navy as opposed to the other branches. My friend got stationed here at MacDill and she couldn't believe how different the other branches treated the chain of command. It was a much flatter structure. I'd be there cheering him on as well for that very simple fact. Its crazy, because while what he did was wrong, it was a true display of leadership and the whole honor courage and commitment thing. Those are the breaks sometimes but you can't excuse the guy for taking the easy way out.
Well...I like to believe that even squids have some semblance of leadership even though the branch is pretty steeped in hierarchy with it's Captain's wardroom, officers mess, Chiefs mess, and then everyone else. When I was on an amphib for a MEU, we had sailors picking up and delivering our laundry as well as clearing our plates in the officers mess...I was totally blown away. But then again, at the Naval Academy, we had Navy style or Marine Corps style dining at each squad's table. Marine style was the freshmen (plebes) ate first and the seniors ate last following the "officers eat last" concept. Navy, the plebes served everyone first before they got to eat. So it shouldn't have really surprised me how it was on ships.
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Well...I like to believe that even squids have some semblance of leadership even though the branch is pretty steeped in hierarchy with it's Captain's wardroom, officers mess, Chiefs mess, and then everyone else. When I was on an amphib for a MEU, we had sailors picking up and delivering our laundry as well as clearing our plates in the officers mess...I was totally blown away. But then again, at the Naval Academy, we had Navy style or Marine Corps style dining at each squad's table. Marine style was the freshmen (plebes) ate first and the seniors ate last following the "officers eat last" concept. Navy, the plebes served everyone first before they got to eat. So it shouldn't have really surprised me how it was on ships.
My buddy was a language school kick out and he read this book called Two Years Before The Mast and he gave me the cliffnotes. It was absolutely fascinating. It was written by a guy who was trying to become a Dr. but his eyesight was failing him. So he thought two years at sea would strengthen his eyesight. Joined the Navy as a deck seaman and it blew my mind how little deck department evolved since then. This book was written in 1840! Clearly a smart dude and could see through a lot of the psychological tactics they use for control.
Anyway I had a lot of time to think about it and talked to some other people about it. The Army and Marine Corps needs buy in from their enlisted to complete missions. Where as in the Navy there is a very distinct class structure and you work for the brass and not the other way around. I understood why you need to demonstrate a ton of control on the ship, but they pretty much cut a ton of liberty around when I got in, which is time to blow off steam. No overnights anywhere, even outside the Persian Gulf, which absolutely crushed morale. All I wanted was to get away from that bullshit for 3 days a month, but had curfew, and was always forced to have a fucking liberty plan signed by the COC (which by signing it pretty much gives them the right to fuck you if you drank at all). But the upper levels don't give a shit, they'd rather look better by having a few less incidents on port visits than good morale on the ship.
What are you going to do? Not do your job? Good luck with that. Most the time you are doing bullshit busy work anyway, so its not like they need you to be productive anyway.
Thats just one example. Even talking to some guys that joined up around 9/11 they couldn't believe how much things had change in an effort to "corporatize" the Navy. Where as the "Old" Navy became a common refrain. To the point where my department chief had to chew our shit out from the rumbling coming from some of us "older" guys that understood how things used to be (funny how anything past 25 is ancient in the military).
One thing I did notice though was there was a clear generational gap between people my age, born 86, and those 5 years younger me. They were absolutely terrified of breaking rules, which I thought was interesting. Probably a lot to do with zero tolerance policies and the like from schools and helicopter parents. My dad even commented on it. He's like I feel bad for you kids, it's like one mistake and they want to fuck up your life forever today. My parents were boomers so it was pretty cool, had a lot of freedom, and the ability to figure things out on my own. Of course this independent style didn't really jive with how the military evolved past 2010.
I remember asking why my department chief why we didn't have a watch section and work section. He said too much free time causes trouble. Which is ridiculous because you'd still be working 50 some odd hour weeks plus mandatory training and working out. Come down hard on the troublemakers. Make them pull work and watch, problem solved. There is a ton of the mindset, I suffered, so you will suffer too. Which is the complete opposite of good leadership. Leadership in the Navy is given, not earned, although that is probably a military wide problem. I remember being so fucking tired all the time, it made the dangerous work I did, exponentially more dangerous. And night time watches? Forget about it. You start seeing shit out there that doesn't exist because you are so tired. Probably miss that Iranian speedboat coming right at you. Not to mention the amount of people that would just sleep on watch.
First of all, there, this bullshit about only E4 and below getting sick: If you weren’t a side walk sailor and were a fleet sailor, you would know that berthing areas are made up by division. In other military terms, MOS. E6 and below all sleep in the same compartment. So, in other words, it could have been possible that an entire division or department could have become infected and needed to be quarantine. A closed berthing area, limited ventilation, and let me add that the us the same showers and shitters! You have to quarantine the wrong division, say, CIC or your Nukes, you can degrade the ship to different category of readiness because you may have lost the ability to have trained sailors in critical operational billets and or stations.
The possibility of the entire wardroom could have been quarantined since the CO tested positive. Do you not understand the ramifications that it’s possible the most senior officers could have been quarantined, like WEPS, OPS, Engineering??
And by the way, and the biggest fucking bullshit you posted was about ESWS and getting qualified and no one really cared!! Do me fucking favor. Google Operation Preying Mantis. April 18, 1988. This is what leadership and people who give a fuck do! Not whine about night watches and being tired. You should have joined a fucking yacht club if you wanna relax and enjoy liberty. The sailors on the USS Simpson are example of US Navy Pride and Professionalism! Every swinging dick was out there fighting fires and saving their ship! I would bet dollars to donuts a lot of them were ESWS qualified. This qualification meant you knew a little bit about the entire operation of the ship, and if emergency situations, SEE USS Stark 1987 and USS Simpson, it saved the ship and a lot of sailors. I
I had the honor to be stationed onboard the USS Wainwright CG-28 during Operation Preying Mantis AND making chief onboard USS Theodore Roosevelt CVN-71. The year you were born, we were sailing in the Black Sea and crossing the one of Death in Libya. This is why sailors train and why they should honored and not disrespected because of the narrowness of your views of the Navy
Chief Petty Officer
US Navy Retired
Great to "see" you!
Chief Petty Officer
US Navy Retired
Man, I don't know jack about the Navy but that was fantastic!
Got to reading this thread and was getting pretty irritated.
Venting is cool.
Please visit more often
I spent 3 years on the TR. That ship is very dear to my heart. Well, they all are. But going through Chief initiation during the month of July in the Persian Gulf was a milestone I will always treasure.
Be well. Stay safe!
First of all, there, this bullshit about only E4 and below getting sick: If you weren’t a side walk sailor and were a fleet sailor, you would know that berthing areas are made up by division. In other military terms, MOS. E6 and below all sleep in the same compartment. So, in other words, it could have been possible that an entire division or department could have become infected and needed to be quarantine. A closed berthing area, limited ventilation, and let me add that the us the same showers and shitters! You have to quarantine the wrong division, say, CIC or your Nukes, you can degrade the ship to different category of readiness because you may have lost the ability to have trained sailors in critical operational billets and or stations.
The possibility of the entire wardroom could have been quarantined since the CO tested positive. Do you not understand the ramifications that it’s possible the most senior officers could have been quarantined, like WEPS, OPS, Engineering??
And by the way, and the biggest fucking bullshit you posted was about ESWS and getting qualified and no one really cared!! Do me fucking favor. Google Operation Preying Mantis. April 18, 1988. This is what leadership and people who give a fuck do! Not whine about night watches and being tired. You should have joined a fucking yacht club if you wanna relax and enjoy liberty. The sailors on the USS Simpson are example of US Navy Pride and Professionalism! Every swinging dick was out there fighting fires and saving their ship! I would bet dollars to donuts a lot of them were ESWS qualified. This qualification meant you knew a little bit about the entire operation of the ship, and if emergency situations, SEE USS Stark 1987 and USS Simpson, it saved the ship and a lot of sailors. I
I had the honor to be stationed onboard the USS Wainwright CG-28 during Operation Preying Mantis AND making chief onboard USS Theodore Roosevelt CVN-71. The year you were born, we were sailing in the Black Sea and crossing the one of Death in Libya. This is why sailors train and why they should honored and not disrespected because of the narrowness of your views of the Navy
Chief Petty Officer
US Navy Retired
Thank you!
Venting is cool.
Please visit more often
Totally agree. You were and are still one of the very best of BBI. Hope you and your family are staying safe, healthy, and sane, my friend.
Just another of a whole bunch of very good men found on this site
I don't know what to tell you man, I was on an aircraft carrier deployed twice to the war zone. I'm just relaying what was the consensus aboard these ships, among many of the departments. Sleep deprivation has negative effect on performance, period. How many incidents happened aboard ships because of overtired sailors? The job is dangerous enough as it is, at least in deck department. When there are ways to work around it, they should be taken.
I submit that although is has defects and weaknesses, our naval traditions and institutions ( and those of the Brits) are the only proven guiding principles as compared to what is out there.
Small example:
Once the Bismarck sunk the Hood, all Brit naval commanders anywhere in the North Sea or North Atlantic changed direction and headed for the Bismarck. And told them about it via radio. Told them not to surrender they were dead men.
When the Admiralty decided a few hours later to pursue the Bismarck, most ships of any kind capable of blue water had already started.
When the rudder got hit there was already full panic the officers could not reverse.
The officers could not get men to man stations or do anything except flee. Hitler refused to allow abandon ship and threatened the officers families if they did. Mutiny's began to break out throughout the ship.
Meanwhile the Brits kept up the radio demoralization without any plan or order to do so. "All dead. All of you are dead. No surrender. No turning over the ship. no rescues. No one comes on board. You and the ship are history." Non stop every shift. The last days on the Bismarck were pure hell.
The charge of Taffy 3 was not an exception to the culture. McCluskey risking drowning at sea was not a one off exception. HB Roberts was not an exception. Firing from the Arizona as it went down was not an exception.
Being the only nation that makes carriers actually work across long operating tours is not an accident. Being the only carrier fleet who can operate day and night and in storm condition levels that they can is not an accident.
So for all of the oppressive nature and sad experiences the ultimate test of a culture and its practices remains:
Did it work when it counted most?
I defy anyone to say anything but Yes and Yes Absolutely