State of affairs:
-Shepherd - savvy and polished in every way. Somewhat undersized, but not for a slot WR. The key concern is the concussions so there is a heightened risk of an early retirement.
-Tate - tough vet who plays way bigger than his height
-Slayton - seems to be a great find; high end speed, decent hands, good chemistry with DJ (random/unimportant: despite having undoubtedly elite speed, he doesn't have a running style that jumps off the screen to make you think he's as fast as he truly is)
Others:
-let's keep Engram in the TE bucket for now although that may not be entirely true
-Core probably remains a STer and a good one.
-Sills may be a hidden gem but he needs to get more physical to achieve success at this level
-Coleman was resigned but I'm not a believer
Draft hope: I'd like to see them draft 2 WRs on Day 3. I'd like to see them target a slot guy and a bigger guy, perhaps round 5 and one of the 7s.
Slot target:
James Proche - he's very much like Shepherd
Van Jefferson/KJ Hill - both elite route runners albeit not physically impressive
Size:
Tyler Johnson - extremely competitive, almost like Anquon Bolden in many ways
Joe Reed - somewhat similar to Laviska Shenault who will go several round earlier; 6'2" 220 and highly athletic
Quintez Cephus - another highly competitive player; blocks his ass off, dangerous and physical after the catch; not going to get behind a lot of people but has a lot of other assets
WRs I don't care for:
Big guys that aren't physical enough: Tee Higgins, Isiah Hodgins, Collin Johnson, Ben Victor
Bad hands: Juwan Johnson, Quartney Davis, Quez Watkins, John Hightower
Can you talk about this guy a bit? At a glance, he seems to have some Michael Gallup in him (thin, wiry build, good speed/hands) but that's only based on minimal knowledge on my part.
It's plausible that there are 2 or 3 available that the Giants have a first round grade on.
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the Giants take a WR much higher than anticipated.
I'm just a fan so this is just pure speculation and hope but I'd rather see a draft that looks like this:
1 LB Simmons
2 OT Wilson
3 C Biadasz
4 Edge Willekes
5 then WR like say, Cephus
than...
1 LB Simmons
2 WIDE RECEIVER
...and then have to address C/OT after that
I'd rather see them draft the best player than leave talent on the board to fill a need.
Flowers says hi.
Nice size and different than our other guys.
LOL I've been priming that pump for weeks.
Brugler's summary:
"SUMMARY: A three-year starter at Wisconsin, Cephus was the go-to receiver in head coach Paul Chryst’s pro-style scheme, lining up both inside and outside. A basketball-first athlete the first 18 years of his life, he took a winding road to this point in his career, including a 22-month absence from the field at Wisconsin (broken leg and off-field issues, including his expulsion after the sexual assault charges), returning in 2019 to lead the team in receiving. Cephus is a good-sized athlete with the catch radius and toughness that translates well to the pro game. Although he doesn’t labor in/out of his breaks, his patterns lack nuance and he must adopt more attention to detail. Overall, Cephus needs to better coordinate the athleticism within his routes, but his hardwood background is apparent with his body control and ball skills, displaying NFL impact potential if he adds polish."
No character issues -- acquitted in a trial and his coaches and teammates would follow him anywhere.
I think his 'shortcomings' are fixable and may be a factor of his late arrival to the position.
He is also an excellent downfield blocker (you have to be to play WR at UW).
Brugler has him at 5-6th round and I would love us to nab him.
That could well mean that we get the top-rated defender at 4 (Young/Simmons/Okudah) and then select a WR at 36.
I know some will contend that since the WR class is so deep the Giants can wait until day three. But when you have so much first round talent at a single position (like WR) it means that a potential #1 WR could slip to 36.
If Mims or Jefferson somehow slide to 36, I hope the Giants go that route instead of the "fill the OL holes" option.
BPA at 4 and 36. Then fill the holes in rounds 3-7.
So did Ramses Barden. I question his ability to separate from NFL DB's and route running.
Think Tate is safe for this year.
That's a tall order.
I would be delirious with 3 among: OT, OC, FS, ER, WR
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if WR is so deep in this draft and we have such huge holes at positions that are not deep, why would we take a WR early (first 3 rounds)?
The premise in the OP is to NOT use an early draft asset on a WR but rather 2 late ones e.g. Cephus in RD5 and Proche with one of the 7s.
I understand that (maybe I should've made that clear). My Q was directed at posts by JonC, et al, who say we might take WR at 36.
On the other hand, if they go OT in the first, it's going to be very difficult for them to go offense in the second.
So I'm thinking they're going to push drafting a receiver past the second round if their board permits it. But what do I know?
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You don’t mention Antonio Golden-Gandy? Kid has the goods to be a very very good WR in the league. Huge catch radius, good hands and speed, not to mention he’s 6’4. Definitely my dark horse to be the pick in the 4th rd
So did Ramses Barden. I question his ability to separate from NFL DB's and route running.
I agree. I thought he was really slow in and out of his breaks during senior bowl practices.
Seems we have WAY too many gigantic holes at pos. with less depth in the draft.
I respect JonC and his opinions, but it makes no sense to me taking a WR at 36 in a deep draft when, we could potentially still be looking for a starting OT and C or impact D if we went OT in 1st.
I'm a big believer in BPA, but there are limits. Like when you need a starting C and their are a few good ones that are going to be gone by the 3rd rd; while you can still get a good WR in 3rd and beyond.
Seems we have WAY too many gigantic holes at pos. with less depth in the draft.
I respect JonC and his opinions, but it makes no sense to me taking a WR at 36 in a deep draft when, we could potentially still be looking for a starting OT and C or impact D if we went OT in 1st.
I'm a big believer in BPA, but there are limits. Like when you need a starting C and their are a few good ones that are going to be gone by the 3rd rd; while you can still get a good WR in 3rd and beyond.
Yeah, I'd be really worried to exit this draft without a starting OC and OT who we couldn't have as a swing OT at a minimum in 2020 and feel good about starting potential down the road.
Or the run on WRs would push down talent at other positions.
A really good prospect on day 3.
A really good prospect on day 3.
Thank you!
A really good prospect on day 3.
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Good speed runs a 4.45 forty . He has a lean body and his route running needs to be refined. Was productive at RI improving every year. See if you can get his game tape versus Virginia Tech. He beat down the Hokies with 9 catches for over 150 yards.
A really good prospect on day 3.
And the hands have gotta be 10 3/4 inches at least!
I have fantasies that begin with taping her mouth.
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Good speed runs a 4.45 forty . He has a lean body and his route running needs to be refined. Was productive at RI improving every year. See if you can get his game tape versus Virginia Tech. He beat down the Hokies with 9 catches for over 150 yards.
A really good prospect on day 3.
And the hands have gotta be 10 3/4 inches at least!
You were freaking out about someone saying media on a military thread and you post this? Really?
You can't be a "big believer in BPA" and then draft for need to fill roster holes.
And while I agree that you can still get a good WR in 3rd and beyond, this team needs a #1 receiver to stretch the field. You're much more likely to get that at 36 than you are in later rounds, where you'll mostly find complementary WRs.
It's plausible that there are 2 or 3 available that the Giants have a first round grade on.
If Getty takes Simmons 4th overall and then a WR at 36 "because he's the BPA" I will personally attempt to get into Giants HQ and beat DG about the head and shoulders with an empty Diet Coke 48 oz plastic bottle.
That's like an undisciplined idiot who goes to the grocery store needing pasta and vegetables but comes home without those but rather 5# ground chuck "because it was on sale" (and the veggies and pasta were full price) when his freezer is already full of ground chuck...
Collecting the best value available doesn't help if you don't have the right combo of ingredients to make a fucking dinner.
And I'm thinking Klaatu would drive me there, too.
Not at all elite physically, but the guy is simply a baller. Reminds me Abit if a slower Hakeem Nicks, and maybe a harder worker.
If you reach for a center at 36 you may very well still suck at center when you could have had a WR with first round talent.
We go round and round with this every year, but some of you are physically incapable of seeing beyond the knee-jerk instinct to plug holes.
I'm done with it. It's not complicated, but it feels like explaining calculus to my dog.
That’s Slayton. No issue adding another but if he makes even a small improvement that’s a real good pick. Kid can play
You were freaking out about someone saying media on a military thread and you post this? Really?
If you reach for a center at 36 you may very well still suck at center when you could have had a WR with first round talent.
We go round and round with this every year, but some of you are physically incapable of seeing beyond the knee-jerk instinct to plug holes.
I'm done with it. It's not complicated, but it feels like explaining calculus to my dog.
So your dog is good at understanding over-played tautologies like BPA?
p.s.--Wide receivers who get open means the QB doesn't have to hold onto the ball as long and OL don't need to hold their blocks as long. Wide receivers who can stretch the defense means fewer defenders in the box with a shorter distance to the QB. And fewer defenders in the box makes the running game better. And a better running game means fewer 3rd & 10's. It takes eleven players to run the ball and it takes eleven players to protect the QB. You're not gonna go far with nothing but slot receivers on the field. The Giants need a true #1 WR to complement Barkley and make this offense percolate!
I love Round 2 players. Plenty of starter-level talent and a few that will impactful because they may be a bit more grounded and/or have "chip on their shoulder" for not being the top picks of teams. Particularly out of the diva WR-classes.
If the BPA in the first 1-3 rounds happens to be QB, RB or K are we taking him? I don't think so.
And if there are a dwindling # of starting caliber Cs at 36, where the BPA is a WR, but the value is close and the draft is deep at WR, but not C, I would be surprised if we take WR.
But I will trust DG, JJ, et al, just like I trusted DG last year when we drafted DJ because I know I don't know better.
NYG doesn't have a pressing need here but the value could be too good to pass at 36. Also, this is potentially Tate's last season with the Giants and Shepard has a history with concussions.. It would be smart to add more talent to the pipeline.
Getting a receiver with some size and a larger catch radius would benefit Jones and round out this group. Higgins, Pittman, Mims, Claypool fit that profile.
Agree with this take, although the current shape of the roster coupled with the depth of this WR class would seemingly compel The Org to gamble that pick 99 or 110 produce a functional wideout.
Also, the presence of Barkley and Engram probably de-prioritizes the need for an impact wideout, at least temporarily.
Of the group you listed, Mims and Pittman stand out as intriguing candidates. It seems like the league may be drifting away from contested catch specialists in favor of natural separators. Not sure Claypool and Higgins share the baseline movement skills.
Higgins in particular is a tough eval; he was productive at high level at a young age (something of a skeleton key for predicting wideout success) but being a rebound specialist is a hard way to live vs. pro CBs. Think he’s more Mike Williams and less DeAndre Hopkins.
Tate’s imminent departure and Shepard’s inside/outside skills likely offers them the freedom to target more of a slot specialist at 99/110. Duvernay, KJ, and Tyler Johnson are good candidates. Admittedly the latter two don’t have ideal athletic traits; Johnson didn’t even get a Senior Bowl invite.
We probably won’t be lucky enough to have a shot a big school sleeper size/speed guy like Bryan Edwards, or a lid-popper like Hamler. Van Jefferson has a nice combination of size, athleticism, and route-running acumen but a 24-yr old rookie who never topped 700 yds in a season?
Altogether, both Reese & Gettleman have drafted a wide range of body types at WR. Guys as small as Moss and Jernigan, and as big as Ramses and Kelvin Benjamin. All of them equally ineffective. As colleagues, they once coveted Darrius Heyward-Bey; when DHB went early, they were “stuck” with Hakeem Nicks. Hopefully this class offers similar fortune, if not outright saving The Org from itself.
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Agree, but the problem is the defense needs an impact player and the O-line needs reinforcements at several spots. In today's NFL, you almost have to get your tackles in the first round and your guards and centers in the second, because the bust rate for linemen is so high. In this draft, it will be very difficult for the Giants to pass on a lineman if they go defense in the first.
On the other hand, if they go OT in the first, it's going to be very difficult for them to go offense in the second.
So I'm thinking they're going to push drafting a receiver past the second round if their board permits it. But what do I know?
I really like Isaiah Wilson and Josh Jones at #36, and going defense at #4, but the talk is Wilson and OT prospects of his value range could be gone in the first round. Not seeing the impact defenders at #36, unless you find a diamond in the rough. My board looks like defense at #4 and hopefully an OT I really like at #36. But, in terms of value at #36, WR is going to be way up there.
This draft isn't really lining up to address premium holes for NYG despite the high picks, and I'm a value picker over need anyway.
I mean high WR BPA value is obvious wherever whenever it appears, but it almost inevitably occurs at steeper discounts per value in later rounds, by definition. In a weak WR class last year we got D. Slayton in the 5th round... Whereas the Patriots got N'Keal Harry with the 32nd pick...
Now in a super strong WR class we need to jump on a WR early as opposed to waiting to see who slips through the cracks?
Slayton, if one didn't notice, has the toolbox of a true #1 WR. And the argument for adding a WR based on likely 2021 needs: Tate perhaps being released and Shep one hit away from retirement, points to drafting a slot guy based on NEED.
But folks want the biggest, flashiest hood ornament type WR at 36, where maybe there's a Zack Baun or a top CB - if in the 1st round we grabbed the best OT.
Makes little sense to me unless the WR at 36 is through the roof better than the next 15 WRs on the board.
Sign me up for Cephus or someone similar in rounds 5 or later please.
I like Baun and would consider him, but he's more of a Van Noy and less of an Edge talent. Not seeing alot of Edge talent in this range.
I like Baun but I think he going to be gone. The OT I like in round 2 is Cleveland and hoping that Jones or Jackson could be available as well.
I agree with that, and I'm not saying that we take just any OC. As I said above, I'm assuming the value is close.
An extra #2 or #3 in this draft would not suck. I see help available at OL and WR.
I mean high WR BPA value is obvious wherever whenever it appears, but it almost inevitably occurs at steeper discounts per value in later rounds, by definition. In a weak WR class last year we got D. Slayton in the 5th round... Whereas the Patriots got N'Keal Harry with the 32nd pick...
Now in a super strong WR class we need to jump on a WR early as opposed to waiting to see who slips through the cracks?
Slayton, if one didn't notice, has the toolbox of a true #1 WR. And the argument for adding a WR based on likely 2021 needs: Tate perhaps being released and Shep one hit away from retirement, points to drafting a slot guy based on NEED.
But folks want the biggest, flashiest hood ornament type WR at 36, where maybe there's a Zack Baun or a top CB - if in the 1st round we grabbed the best OT.
Makes little sense to me unless the WR at 36 is through the roof better than the next 15 WRs on the board.
Sign me up for Cephus or someone similar in rounds 5 or later please.
How is it contradictory?
I'm contradicting myself because I won't leave 1st round talent on the board at 36 just because I might be able to get 4th round talent in the 5th?
Yes there is a lot of WR talent in this draft, but leaving Reager, or Mims on the board because we might get Cephus later and he might be a "steal" is fucking stupid. He isnt even in the ballpark as a prospect.
You guys always like to throw "flashy" around with WR for some reason. It's not about flash, it's about value.
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often is self contradictory.
I mean high WR BPA value is obvious wherever whenever it appears, but it almost inevitably occurs at steeper discounts per value in later rounds, by definition. In a weak WR class last year we got D. Slayton in the 5th round... Whereas the Patriots got N'Keal Harry with the 32nd pick...
Now in a super strong WR class we need to jump on a WR early as opposed to waiting to see who slips through the cracks?
Slayton, if one didn't notice, has the toolbox of a true #1 WR. And the argument for adding a WR based on likely 2021 needs: Tate perhaps being released and Shep one hit away from retirement, points to drafting a slot guy based on NEED.
But folks want the biggest, flashiest hood ornament type WR at 36, where maybe there's a Zack Baun or a top CB - if in the 1st round we grabbed the best OT.
Makes little sense to me unless the WR at 36 is through the roof better than the next 15 WRs on the board.
Sign me up for Cephus or someone similar in rounds 5 or later please.
How is it contradictory?
I'm contradicting myself because I won't leave 1st round talent on the board at 36 just because I might be able to get 4th round talent in the 5th?
Yes there is a lot of WR talent in this draft, but leaving Reager, or Mims on the board because we might get Cephus later and he might be a "steal" is fucking stupid. He isnt even in the ballpark as a prospect.
You guys always like to throw "flashy" around with WR for some reason. It's not about flash, it's about value.
I doubt that would happen and it would be stupid to pass on a top talent for good value later on in the same position.
What I and others have been arguing, I think, is that if at Round 3 you are faced with a good WR and a good Center, the depth of the former pool could be a factor.
An I think you underestimate Cephus and I think he would be a steal in the 5th (at least) comparable value to Slayton.
As I just said in another thread: I keep forgetting to mention that Okudah has singled out Cephus as the best WR that he's faced. In this case, I would take Okudah's point of view above most people's.