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Daniel Jones: the most important off-season player on roster

M.S. : 4/9/2020 1:22 pm
I'm a little surprised BBIers have not brought his name up more often, especially as it pertains to his continued development.

IMO, our entire re-build does not begin until this very fine young QB takes the next step up in becoming a dependable, winning NFL QB.

What exactly does that mean?

(1) He must absolutely cut down on his fumbling; if it should continue in Year Two, he'll be benched;

(2) He needs to speed up his progressions, and needs to get the ball out faster;

(3) Improve upon his pocket presence, and know where to step while keeping his eyes downfield.

I believe (1) and (2) are related, and I believe Daniel Jones will makes the necessary adjustments. If he doesn't (especially #1), then we've got much bigger issues than, say, staying at #4 and selecting an offensive tackle vs Isaiah Simmons, or vice versa.

I believe #3 is the one area that cannot really be taught. Either you have the dual vision to look downfield while sensing what's going on around you, or you don't. That was one of the major differences between Kerry Collins and a younger Eli Manning. Kerry Collins reacted to pressure by looking down at his feet; Eli had the ability to slip and slide while keeping his eyes downfield.

Of course, a fantastic offensive line mitigates #3, but there will be critical moments in a game when the QB must buy time, move around and then deliver a strike.

The great news is that Daniel Jones showed so many good things in his rookie season despite a talent-challenged offensive line. But his road to stardom is not fully paved, and this young man still has his work cut out for him.
Asshat: he has gain about 10 to 15 lbs of muscle  
George from PA : 4/9/2020 1:26 pm : link
Working hard this off season....

Claims to really like playbook
2  
MotownGIANTS : 4/9/2020 1:26 pm : link
has some merit but also the OL need to get it together otherwise all passes are short and underneath ....

The issue is 2 fold ... not to mention better blocking less hits and swats at the ball...etc
Fumbles:  
giant power : 4/9/2020 1:30 pm : link
look at the game film, many of the Jones fumbles were in the act of throwing. Defenders hitting his arm as it was moving with the ball. He was blind sided on many of them. Improved OL play will help dramatically.
Because people think he is the next coming  
Darth Paul : 4/9/2020 1:30 pm : link
and 25+ turnovers does not matter.

He should be very good, but you are correct, if he does not fix turnovers, our defense will need to REALLY improve.
One more Comment:  
giant power : 4/9/2020 1:32 pm : link
I whole heartedly agree with the OP: Jones is the most important player going forward. We need continued growth and maturity.
RE: Asshat: he has gain about 10 to 15 lbs of muscle  
The_Boss : 4/9/2020 1:33 pm : link
In comment 14863761 George from PA said:
Quote:
Working hard this off season....

Claims to really like playbook


Hopefully most of that muscle gain is in his grip strength.

😆
Agree with your thoughts  
Lines of Scrimmage : 4/9/2020 1:33 pm : link
I think Garrett is going to be really good for him. He is going to really push this team to better balance and play action which is going to help with some of "holding the ball" issues. I thought they had too much on his plate last year and I hoping they simplify things with more running the ball.



We just need...........better lineman!
RE: Asshat: he has gain about 10 to 15 lbs of muscle  
darren in pdx : 4/9/2020 1:43 pm : link
In comment 14863761 George from PA said:
Quote:
Working hard this off season....

Claims to really like playbook


Are they not allowed to receive playbooks until OTAs?
Jones moving forward  
BillyM : 4/9/2020 1:50 pm : link
all fair points.

To that, I think it happens. He has the skills and ability. He needs to refine timing and ball security.

Let's not forget the kid absolutely was gun slinging MOST games last year.

RE: Fumbles:  
joeinpa : 4/9/2020 1:51 pm : link
In comment 14863765 giant power said:
Quote:
look at the game film, many of the Jones fumbles were in the act of throwing. Defenders hitting his arm as it was moving with the ball. He was blind sided on many of them. Improved OL play will help dramatically.


Amen , the repeated mentioning of his “fumbling” problems with out proper context is just more lazy reporting by the media.

Most quarterbacks on many of this plays give up the ball. Now if you want to say he got hit because of lack of awareness, that a harder to prove or disapprove

Hit in a t of throwing, is that lack of awareness or just bad protection
RE: RE: Fumbles:  
Nine-Tails : 4/9/2020 1:54 pm : link
In comment 14863793 joeinpa said:
Quote:
In comment 14863765 giant power said:


Quote:


look at the game film, many of the Jones fumbles were in the act of throwing. Defenders hitting his arm as it was moving with the ball. He was blind sided on many of them. Improved OL play will help dramatically.



Amen , the repeated mentioning of his “fumbling” problems with out proper context is just more lazy reporting by the media.

Most quarterbacks on many of this plays give up the ball. Now if you want to say he got hit because of lack of awareness, that a harder to prove or disapprove

Hit in a t of throwing, is that lack of awareness or just bad protection


Barkley’s inability to pass block whatsoever was also huge reason as well. In games Barkley didn’t play, there were less fumbles, albeit a small sample size. Kudos to Barkley for coming back early, but he was a net negative for a large stretch of the year.
RE: RE: Fumbles:  
M.S. : 4/9/2020 1:55 pm : link
In comment 14863793 joeinpa said:
Quote:
In comment 14863765 giant power said:


Quote:


look at the game film, many of the Jones fumbles were in the act of throwing. Defenders hitting his arm as it was moving with the ball. He was blind sided on many of them. Improved OL play will help dramatically.



Amen , the repeated mentioning of his “fumbling” problems with out proper context is just more lazy reporting by the media.

Most quarterbacks on many of this plays give up the ball. Now if you want to say he got hit because of lack of awareness, that a harder to prove or disapprove

Hit in a t of throwing, is that lack of awareness or just bad protection

At times, I believe Daniel Jones held onto the ball too long which exacerbated his fumbling problem.
RE: RE: Fumbles:  
M.S. : 4/9/2020 1:56 pm : link
In comment 14863793 joeinpa said:
Quote:
In comment 14863765 giant power said:


Quote:


look at the game film, many of the Jones fumbles were in the act of throwing. Defenders hitting his arm as it was moving with the ball. He was blind sided on many of them. Improved OL play will help dramatically.



Amen , the repeated mentioning of his “fumbling” problems with out proper context is just more lazy reporting by the media.

Most quarterbacks on many of this plays give up the ball. Now if you want to say he got hit because of lack of awareness, that a harder to prove or disapprove

Hit in a t of throwing, is that lack of awareness or just bad protection

At times, I believe Daniel Jones held onto the ball too long which exacerbated his fumbling problem.
i think being in isolation for a couple of months might really help  
markky : 4/9/2020 2:02 pm : link
with Jones' grip strength.
Horrible job by Shemur  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 4/9/2020 2:04 pm : link
not bootlegging him and changing his launch points ffs, really let the D tee off on Jones. Unless I'm missing something and teams were calling some kind of counter.

I would have also instructed Jones to make a quick read and then run for it, due to our horrible blocking, not linger in the pocket.

Also a 50-50 TE is a security blanket, for any QB but especially a young one.
RE: Agree with your thoughts  
JB_in_DC : 4/9/2020 2:06 pm : link
In comment 14863773 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
I thought they had too much on his plate last year


Yeah this was particularly glaring to me in the Arizona game. Kingsbury was asking his rookie qb to do very little, running a ton, letting him get a lot of easy quick passes off PA and roll-out action. Meanwhile Shurmur was just throwing Jones to the wolves.
RE: Fumbles:  
ZogZerg : 4/9/2020 2:17 pm : link
In comment 14863765 giant power said:
Quote:
look at the game film, many of the Jones fumbles were in the act of throwing. Defenders hitting his arm as it was moving with the ball. He was blind sided on many of them. Improved OL play will help dramatically.


Agree. He certainly needs to work on things, but he was under so much duress last year that definitely impacted the numbers. Hopefully a stud OT at #4 helps with both running and pass protection.

In addition, learning another new offense will certainly have its challenges, especially with no OTAs.
3 is directly related to 2  
UConn4523 : 4/9/2020 2:24 pm : link
btw
so is everyone just 100% sold  
Enzo : 4/9/2020 2:25 pm : link
on his passing ability? I know I'm not. He showed some flashes but overall he still ranked near the bottom of the league in several QB stats. Not saying he can't or won't improve, but there does need to be improvement going forward or he simply won't be a franchise QB.
RE: so is everyone just 100% sold  
M.S. : 4/9/2020 2:34 pm : link
In comment 14863841 Enzo said:
Quote:
on his passing ability? I know I'm not. He showed some flashes but overall he still ranked near the bottom of the league in several QB stats. Not saying he can't or won't improve, but there does need to be improvement going forward or he simply won't be a franchise QB.

I was debating whether or not to mention that there are probably certain throws (like a deep out) that are difficult for DJ to make. If you need a QB to drill the ball into a deep window, DJ is not the first QB that comes to mind. I think he has all the makings to be a fine QB, but he is not an “arm talent.”
I  
Toth029 : 4/9/2020 3:09 pm : link
Absolutely have faith with him going into the future. They have an assortment of other problems to fix til he's given s proper chance. Barkely was not good last year due to his injury and I blame the pass pro on coaching. I like Garrett and the new coaches that Judge brought in.

Excited to see, although this virus will hamper a lot of the early on learning. But they're smart kids and McCoy being there also helps.
arm talent  
Payasdaddy : 4/9/2020 3:10 pm : link
I think DJ has good, not elite arm talent
at least better than average
7/10 grade
Think he he showed plenty to build upon, real leadership potential, intangibles, handling NY ETC
Still has a decent amount of refinement needed
But if u told me last april if thats what we were signing up for, I would take it again
Jones and barkley are why the O-Line will get multiple high picks...  
Torrag : 4/9/2020 3:14 pm : link
in this Draft. Can't wait any longer. Young QB's are ruined by the level of pressure he faced last season if it continues.
Asshat: I believe he got it Monday  
George from PA : 4/9/2020 3:19 pm : link
The playbook
Benched?  
map7711 : 4/9/2020 3:23 pm : link
Lol. Ridiculous
RE: so is everyone just 100% sold  
UConn4523 : 4/9/2020 3:25 pm : link
In comment 14863841 Enzo said:
Quote:
on his passing ability? I know I'm not. He showed some flashes but overall he still ranked near the bottom of the league in several QB stats. Not saying he can't or won't improve, but there does need to be improvement going forward or he simply won't be a franchise QB.


The throws he can make are what gives him a leg up. Sure he needs to get more zip sometimes but if he's gaining muscle there's reason to believe his arm strength can/will improve.

But his accuracy is better than I thought it would be at all 3 levels. Some of his TD throws were gorgeous. And he was throwing to a bottom 5 WR group with bottom 5 protection and a hurt Barkley for basically the entire season. What did you expect?
RE: Jones and barkley are why the O-Line will get multiple high picks...  
Gregorio : 4/9/2020 3:41 pm : link
In comment 14863886 Torrag said:
Quote:
in this Draft. Can't wait any longer. Young QB's are ruined by the level of pressure he faced last season if it continues.


Agreed. If Jones becomes shell shocked he has no chance to be effective. With decent-to-good protection he at least has a fighting chance.
The game slows down  
MacGruber : 4/9/2020 3:41 pm : link
Responding to the admins comments..

(1) He must absolutely cut down on his fumbling; if it should continue in Year Two, he'll be benched;

(2) He needs to speed up his progressions, and needs to get the ball out faster;

(3) Improve upon his pocket presence, and know where to step while keeping his eyes downfield.


All three of these things will be solved by 2 things.

First and foremost is watching game film and getting more practice in. NFL ball is played at a much faster speed.. As anyone who has done sales, played sports, anything active.. Everything slows down the more experience you get. NFL ball is much faster and it can be alot. to handle at first, but, as you gain more reps the game will "slow down" and you'll adjust.

Second is strong offensive line play. As some other people mentioned, the majority of his fumbles were blind side hits while in throwing motion. A quarter of a second more from the O line and a quarter of a second more from him speeidng up play with experience and those fumbles all turn into 10-15 yard gains. 

Some people seem to forget how bad our O line is/was and also HOW MUCH of a difference college ball is to NFL ball. It takes time to adjust.

Not saying he doesn't have other things thatt should be worked on... but we will see how he adjsuts this year. (Hopefully theres a season haha)
Great post  
MeadowlandsMike : 4/9/2020 4:01 pm : link
Which is why improving the OL is even more critical. Eli had the excellent awareness and peripheral vision. Jones may not be on that level but his ball placement is absolutely elite already. Get him better protection.
RE: RE: so is everyone just 100% sold  
MeadowlandsMike : 4/9/2020 4:05 pm : link
In comment 14863898 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 14863841 Enzo said:


Quote:


on his passing ability? I know I'm not. He showed some flashes but overall he still ranked near the bottom of the league in several QB stats. Not saying he can't or won't improve, but there does need to be improvement going forward or he simply won't be a franchise QB.



The throws he can make are what gives him a leg up. Sure he needs to get more zip sometimes but if he's gaining muscle there's reason to believe his arm strength can/will improve.

But his accuracy is better than I thought it would be at all 3 levels. Some of his TD throws were gorgeous. And he was throwing to a bottom 5 WR group with bottom 5 protection and a hurt Barkley for basically the entire season. What did you expect?


Bottom 5 receivers is harsh. It was lack of health. But a receiving corps of Sterling, Golden, Engram, Darius Slayton and Barkley is actually pretty decent.
On fumbles  
Fred in Atlanta : 4/9/2020 4:14 pm : link
I thought he got much better with that as the year went on, but I have not looked at the stats.
Well that’s what I’m talking about  
UConn4523 : 4/9/2020 4:15 pm : link
most of them missed half the season or played hurt. For a rookie to play the way he did, and connecting best with a fellow rookie should ease the worries on his throwing.

Add in there’s no Plax on this team to throw it up to, it’s a ton of timing and right windows (I believe he led the league in throws to the smallest window/separation).
RE: RE: so is everyone just 100% sold  
Enzo : 4/9/2020 4:16 pm : link
In comment 14863898 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 14863841 Enzo said:


Quote:


on his passing ability? I know I'm not. He showed some flashes but overall he still ranked near the bottom of the league in several QB stats. Not saying he can't or won't improve, but there does need to be improvement going forward or he simply won't be a franchise QB.



The throws he can make are what gives him a leg up. Sure he needs to get more zip sometimes but if he's gaining muscle there's reason to believe his arm strength can/will improve.

But his accuracy is better than I thought it would be at all 3 levels. Some of his TD throws were gorgeous. And he was throwing to a bottom 5 WR group with bottom 5 protection and a hurt Barkley for basically the entire season. What did you expect?

what you may have expected for him vs. his actual output is irrelevant. The occasional "gorgeous TD" was nice but again, for those not paying attention, his passing metrics were below average as a rookie and they weren't all that great in college either. My original point remains - he simply needs to be a better passer or he may not be the long term answer at the position.
I am hoping that Garrett is more flexible about his offensive system  
Ivan15 : 4/9/2020 4:31 pm : link
and fitting it to the players than the last 2 head coaches who were basically hired because of the systems they liked.

As a QB, Garrett has seen and played in more different systems than McAdoo and Shurmur will ever see.
Enzo  
UConn4523 : 4/9/2020 4:36 pm : link
it isn't irrelevant at all. I provided 1 anecdote, one that a lot of guys can't replicate year 1 in the league. Telling us all that "he needs to be a better passer" is pretty irrelevant and just as hollow as what you are claiming about my comment.

I provided reasons why his rookie year was impressive. If you expected him to perform better under these circumstances then you either A. have unrealistic expectations B. want to be contrarian or C. both.

Daniel Jones needs to improve, just like every other rookie QB that ever stepped foot in the NFL. He's got all the tools, lets see what happens.
RE: Enzo  
Enzo : 4/9/2020 5:01 pm : link
In comment 14863980 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
it isn't irrelevant at all. I provided 1 anecdote, one that a lot of guys can't replicate year 1 in the league. Telling us all that "he needs to be a better passer" is pretty irrelevant and just as hollow as what you are claiming about my comment.

I provided reasons why his rookie year was impressive. If you expected him to perform better under these circumstances then you either A. have unrealistic expectations B. want to be contrarian or C. both.

Daniel Jones needs to improve, just like every other rookie QB that ever stepped foot in the NFL. He's got all the tools, lets see what happens.

wow, that's a lot of hot air. I couldn't care less whether you think his rookie year was "impressive" - it doesn't mean a damn thing. And you seem fixated on what I or others may have have expected for him as a rookie but that's also irrelevant.

The stats we have on him at this time are not great. Yes that's true for many rookie QBs picked high in the draft but the difference is that many of them (probably the vast majority of them) showed above average to elite passing ability in college. Jones did not. The sentiment here on BBI for many seems to be that all Jones has to do is clean up the turnovers and we have our franchise QB. IMO, there's a lot more to it than that.
I saw a QB who has his eyes downfield and is an accurate passer.  
idinkido : 4/9/2020 5:22 pm : link
In terms of fumbles and pocket awareness, DJ had no pocket to step up to. Once we get a Center who can hold ground, then the Tackles' play will improve because there is less ground to protect, and the fumbles will be cut down. This is a strange off season so I don't know how it will affect DJ's progress and I do believe that over the next several years we will see DJ as a capable and successful QB.
Pointless to argue  
UConn4523 : 4/9/2020 5:27 pm : link
I already said he needs to improve. If you can't see the good he's done and are defaulting to "stats" that don't even take into account the team he's on, then I don't know what to tell you.

And his "stats" in college weren't great either and there was a very big reason for that. I'll let you do a little critical thinking on why that was.
Why worry about it?  
jestersdead : 4/9/2020 5:34 pm : link
Giants are drafting Herbert at 4 and trading Jones to the Pats for their 1st, 3rd and 1st next year


/sarcasm off
and my comment earlier about "gorgeous throws"  
UConn4523 : 4/9/2020 5:45 pm : link
wasn't because the plays looked pretty, its because he threw the ball where no one else but his receiver can catch it or threw it on the money under duress. The long TD to Ellison against the Cardinals between 2 defenders and getting hit on the TD to Tate against Chicago come to mind. He also ended the season with a near 94 QB rating the last 5 games of the season.

That to me means he can make most of or all of the throws. Getting stronger should help with arm strength. Having a healthy WR corps and an improved line/run game should also help. He faced an uphill battle both at Duke and year 1 in the NFL - thinking abut what he can do in an improved offense should have people excited.
RE: so is everyone just 100% sold  
Jay on the Island : 4/9/2020 9:25 pm : link
In comment 14863841 Enzo said:
Quote:
on his passing ability? I know I'm not. He showed some flashes but overall he still ranked near the bottom of the league in several QB stats. Not saying he can't or won't improve, but there does need to be improvement going forward or he simply won't be a franchise QB.

I am sold. Good QB’s elevate the talent around them and that is exactly what Jones did last season. What he did with a weak offensive line, mediocre coaching staff, and numerous injuries to his top weapons is impressive.

RE: i think being in isolation for a couple of months might really help  
Jay in Toronto : 4/9/2020 10:00 pm : link
In comment 14863813 markky said:
Quote:
with Jones' grip strength.


I see what you did there.

Now take your hand out from under the blanket!
The Game Will Slow Dramatically  
Spike13 : 4/9/2020 10:23 pm : link
For DJ, this year. That will equate to a much better ability to check through his reads/progressions. IMHO, that stood out as a major hindrance to his play last year, as most of the backs/backers, needed only to watch his eyes, in Order to look fundamentally astute.
Plus  
Carl in CT : 4/9/2020 10:36 pm : link
What have we done for him this offseason with $100m? Answer absolutely nothing!
I thought there were plenty of times  
M.S. : 4/10/2020 6:39 am : link

When the pocket got ugly very fast for Daniel Jones.

My question: Did anyone see him bail out super-fast and buy himself more time on the outside?

I'm sure he did once in awhile. But I think more often than not Daniel Jones just stood in there and took a beating.

It is 100% unfair to compare our guy to a small handful of elite NFL QBs. Nevertheless, there are a couple of Houdini QBs who can regularly defeat collapsing pockets.
Nine-Tails and Spike - yep  
LBH15 : 4/10/2020 8:44 am : link
Both Barkley and Jones have shown plenty of ability to make plays. Now start providing them a stable support group in a strong Oline and let them develop into stars.

A few mobile tackles and a sturdy Center and this offense will be very good in another year.
Never read Sy'56's review of Daniel Jones pre-2019 Draft  
M.S. : 4/11/2020 11:30 am : link

He has a lot of nice things to say, but here are the negatives:

"...there were constant red flags in his tape that are hard to ignore. He didn’t see things well and his decisions were too inconsistent. There just seemed to be a lack of a true feel for the pocket..."

"Jones has enough arm strength, touch, and athletic ability. But there isn’t a quick mind here, he doesn’t see everything a top tier QB does whether it is coverage or pass rush based."

I guess this is what I was kinda saying in #2 and #3.
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