Tis the season everyone! After what feels like a decade of the same broken record.
As every season plays out. As every QB hit grows that much more repetitive and vicious, as every stuffed RB in the back field grows more disheartened. With every loss, we all moan and proclaim the same damn thing, every single year.... "fix the O Line!"
And here we go again. As the draft approaches, our mindset of "fix the damn o line" starts to slowly skew. Usually due to some shiny new toy like Barkley or Simmons, as an example. I preface by saying I love both players, and understand why they would be considered. They are dynamic. In their own respective way.
To all that, if you draft a shiny new toy, you better make sure it is surrounded by a foundation that allows him to reach the highest of heights. For Barkley, the highest level, his ceiling, with blocking could be top 5 all time. Are we not tired of the two spins ahead of the line of scrimmage to salvage 2 yards? When do we let him loose? Downhill, with holes to hit?
Equally, you have your franchise QB (I'm confident in that) who just needs some damn seconds. The combination of the two, with real blocking opens up play action, something I feel like I rarely have seen in years. It cascades to Shep, Engram, Slayton, everyone's play. It controls the clock and rests the damn defense.
Yes, I'd prefer the trade back for our tackle, maybe to Miami, Carolina or Chargers. To that, if you have a tackle close in grade to Simmons, take him.. Enough is enough.
When does the lunacy end??? Can we shake the amnesia each year, finally, and get a stud on one of our o line ends. A first rounder. A day one starter?
Connelly, Martinez and round 2. You get Jones and Barkley killed and the last few years are a waste
Not 7-8 years painful
I hope our new coach and FO have more vision.
As I've posted on another thread: The D needs an impact player. But if you go D in the first it's very hard not to take an O-lineman in the 2nd, because the line needs reinforcements, and it's become tough to find starting-caliber linemen in the later rounds. But if you take a tackle in the first, you almost have to take a defender in the 2nd, because the defense was so bad. But at the end of the day, the Giants will stick to their board, and if someone falls to them that blows up their ideal plans, they'll probably go BPA. Or look to trade down.
We need a better tackle, for cheap, at least while Jones develops. In doing so, you save FA cash and buy your LB and for coverage.
I LOVE Simmons. If they take him I'll be totally cool with it. He's the real deal.
But how many more years guys? Trying to be cute with tackles and o line? How many. Go watch 2008. That's what I want; a line that says f+ck you, here we come. And sure they were a collective of a second rounder, another second rounder via free agency, a fifth and two un-drafted. But that sh+t doesn't happen all the time. We had Kareem Mckenzie. I want another like him. Now. In today's market Kareem costs 17-20 million.
Exactly what have we done to address and upgrade the O-line?
Nope. Edge rusher next year.
The only thing that trumps oline right now is a dominant edge rusher. So you pick Young.
Quote:
Would you say the same thing if for some minor miracle Chase Young dropped to us?
The only thing that trumps oline right now is a dominant edge rusher. So you pick Young.
Agree:
1) Chase Young
2) Ideally trade back a few spots, pick an OT, and then get an edge/LB with the 2nd pick from Jax/Miami
3) Pick an OT
Barring that unlikely occurrence no other prospect has significantly distanced himself from the high quality OT options available. Or made a convincing argument that any other priority trumps Jones and Barkleys success given our investment and the impact the QB position has on the game.
4: R1P4 - OT MEKHI BECTON
LOUISVILLE
36: R2P4 - WR BRANDON AIYUK
ARIZONA ST.
99: R3P35 - C TYLER BIADASZ
WISCONSIN
110: R4P4 - WR JAUAN JENNINGS
TENNESSEE
150: R5P4 - G CALVIN THROCKMORTON
OREGON
183: R6P4 - TE COLBY PARKINSON
STANFORD
218: R7P4 - OT SCOTT FRANTZ
KANSAS ST.
238: R7P24 - RB RAYMOND CALAIS
LOUISIANA
247: R7P33 - C COHL CABRAL
ARIZONA ST.
255: R7P41 - OT TERENCE STEELE
TEXAS TECH
But he didn't even finish his rookie contract before being dropped by the team that coveted him so much that they traded up to get him.
Frankly, I view Simmons as another one of those LB crap shoots. He might be great. Or he might bust.
Even Sy says you can make the argument that Center is this team's biggest need, as I have said for months. And they also really need a couple of really good OTs too, all this to protect their considerable investment in a franchise QB and a potentially great RB. Plus, they have already made some significant moves to upgrade the defense, particularly at LB and DB.
In looking at this team's needs and the talent available this spring, the needs and the talent definitely intersect at an OT in the first round and a C in the second round. That's exactly where need meets value, and that's what smart drafting is all about. More defensive upgrades are definitely needed, but they will have to wait.
Fix the damn OL now. Don't get Jones or Barkley hurt. And a better OL will also help keep the defense off the field which makes them better, too.
I would also like to add not every QB can take a hit like Eli. What good will Jones be with torn ACLs or separated shoulders.
Which teams have the best offensive lines and what have they won recently? I thought Dallas had a pretty good one.
Barring that unlikely occurrence no other prospect has significantly distanced himself from the high quality OT options available. Or made a convincing argument that any other priority trumps Jones and Barkleys success given our investment and the impact the QB position has on the game.
Three things a team needs to win...
- Find someone who can throw the ball well
- Find guys to protect him
- Find guys that can beat their protection guys and hit their guy who throws the ball well
I'm ok with b but there has to be a trade worth making. I am not ok with a)
I get your point. But I also remember how bad the defense has been last year and beyond, pathetically bad; play of the offensive line in comparison, not nearly as bad.
Not saying you re wrong about getting one of those tackles, but it s no slam dunk either.
I'm ok with b but there has to be a trade worth making. I am not ok with a)
The great thing about this year is there are some OT guys who aren’t reaches at #4.
the team needs more talent on both sides of the ball. We tried to force the trade on the o-line when we over-drafted guys like Flowers and Pugh.
I think the o-line coaching the last couple of years was dreadful. Confused players not picking up basic stunts.
I would happy with any of the top three defenders. And I wouldn't puke with an o-lineman that they had a real conviction about. But you can't force the trade.
Also, are the potential OT at top of round 2 much lesser a player than the top 6 that will be drafted in round 1?
Serious question
This idea that we have to spend a top pick on it every other year,and be like the Cowboys,is not necessary in my eyes.
Quote:
You draft a player. You trust your ranking at get the best player that fits a need. I want to fix the Oline too, but then when you're pegging yourself in like that you either a) reach to fill your need or b) trade down to maximize the overall draft assets and still get your position
I'm ok with b but there has to be a trade worth making. I am not ok with a)
The great thing about this year is there are some OT guys who aren’t reaches at #4.
I disagree and think #4 is too high for all of them. If we traded back to 6-9 that's where I think they slot.
IMO, Burow, Young, Okudah, Simmons, and Brown are all worthy of top 5 status and the OL don't measure up to any of those.
This idea that we have to spend a top pick on it every other year,and be like the Cowboys,is not necessary in my eyes.
Free agency painted the picture of what this pick is likely going to be.
80+ millions to spend
-15mil on CB
-15mill on 2 LBs
-3.5 mil on a backup swing tackle
-One of the best blocking TEs in the NFL (good help for a potential rookie tackle?)
For example take Simmons in round one and hope we get out best lb since LT. There will never be an LT so don't risread by statement.
In the second round OT like Wilson of Georgia, or Clevland, or the tackle from TCU should be available
In round 3 we can get our center, probably our greatest OL need with Hennessey or the kid from Wisky.
This may not meet with everyone's agreement but it looks at the draft strategically. That might solve some of the Giants greatest overall needs.
I hope going into the draft develop an overall strategy similar to this.
Also, are the potential OT at top of round 2 much lesser a player than the top 6 that will be drafted in round 1?
Serious question
Not a simple question. You can use Sy’s rating numbers I guess and tier the guys yourself.
If they are close then seems you go with least risk or highest positional need, or flip a coin.
Quote:
In comment 14863971 Tim in VA said:
Quote:
You draft a player. You trust your ranking at get the best player that fits a need. I want to fix the Oline too, but then when you're pegging yourself in like that you either a) reach to fill your need or b) trade down to maximize the overall draft assets and still get your position
I'm ok with b but there has to be a trade worth making. I am not ok with a)
The great thing about this year is there are some OT guys who aren’t reaches at #4.
I disagree and think #4 is too high for all of them. If we traded back to 6-9 that's where I think they slot.
IMO, Burow, Young, Okudah, Simmons, and Brown are all worthy of top 5 status and the OL don't measure up to any of those.
So at 4 they are a mistake but at 6 they work fine.
Uh huh.
Why can’t the offensive line get the better players and just get competence on defense?
And I would stray from this view that historical units can just be reincarnated.
Quote:
We need to start building the Oline through the draft but it doesn’t have to start with a top 5 pick. We are utterly lacking in playmakers especially on Defense. We aren’t going to win super bowls without that either. We don’t need superstars on Oline, just competence. But we better start getting players on the defensive side who give opposing side something to think about. With top 5 pick, that’s where I’m looking. That doesn’t prevent us from improving the Oline. Our best Oline was not a 1st round pick.
Why can’t the offensive line get the better players and just get competence on defense?
And I would stray from this view that historical units can just be reincarnated.
Quote:
In comment 14863982 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In comment 14863971 Tim in VA said:
Quote:
You draft a player. You trust your ranking at get the best player that fits a need. I want to fix the Oline too, but then when you're pegging yourself in like that you either a) reach to fill your need or b) trade down to maximize the overall draft assets and still get your position
I'm ok with b but there has to be a trade worth making. I am not ok with a)
The great thing about this year is there are some OT guys who aren’t reaches at #4.
I disagree and think #4 is too high for all of them. If we traded back to 6-9 that's where I think they slot.
IMO, Burow, Young, Okudah, Simmons, and Brown are all worthy of top 5 status and the OL don't measure up to any of those.
So at 4 they are a mistake but at 6 they work fine.
Uh huh.
Funny, I don't see the word mistake anywhere in my post. I simply disagreed with your statement there are some OT who aren't reaches at #4. I gave you the guys I have rated higher and that only includes one QB.
Care to list your non reach OT's and who you'd have them graded over out of the five players I listed?
Because to me if a guy is rated 6-9 and you take him at 4, that's reaching. It might not be a big reach but it's taking him above where he's graded. If you have the OT's rated higher than me that's fine, we just disagree. No need to put words in my mouth or the snarky uh huh.
Play the long game.
Sorry, but when you spend the #2 overall pick on a RB and the #6 pick on a QB in successive years, you do end up painting yourself into a corner with regard to your OL.
Unless of course you intend to play the reallllllly long game and replace both the RB and QB again before winning.
Quote:
In comment 14864020 Eman11 said:
Quote:
In comment 14863982 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In comment 14863971 Tim in VA said:
Quote:
You draft a player. You trust your ranking at get the best player that fits a need. I want to fix the Oline too, but then when you're pegging yourself in like that you either a) reach to fill your need or b) trade down to maximize the overall draft assets and still get your position
I'm ok with b but there has to be a trade worth making. I am not ok with a)
The great thing about this year is there are some OT guys who aren’t reaches at #4.
I disagree and think #4 is too high for all of them. If we traded back to 6-9 that's where I think they slot.
IMO, Burow, Young, Okudah, Simmons, and Brown are all worthy of top 5 status and the OL don't measure up to any of those.
So at 4 they are a mistake but at 6 they work fine.
Uh huh.
Funny, I don't see the word mistake anywhere in my post. I simply disagreed with your statement there are some OT who aren't reaches at #4. I gave you the guys I have rated higher and that only includes one QB.
Care to list your non reach OT's and who you'd have them graded over out of the five players I listed?
Because to me if a guy is rated 6-9 and you take him at 4, that's reaching. It might not be a big reach but it's taking him above where he's graded. If you have the OT's rated higher than me that's fine, we just disagree. No need to put words in my mouth or the snarky uh huh.
Eman - I thought the way you characterized the word "reach" that it is reasonable you were suggesting mistake. If not, that is my fault for bad interpretation.
And 4 to 6 to me isn't a reach but anyway that's not the way an NFL team typically selects. They tier the players and if done properly should prevent apparent reaches the way you are denoting.
IMV...
There are 2 blue-chip Tier 1 players - Burrow and Young
There are around 6 players in Tier 2 including two OTs - Tua, Wirfs, Wills, Brown, Okudah and Simmons.
Quote:
+1
Play the long game.
Sorry, but when you spend the #2 overall pick on a RB and the #6 pick on a QB in successive years, you do end up painting yourself into a corner with regard to your OL.
Unless of course you intend to play the reallllllly long game and replace both the RB and QB again before winning.
I get it, but it still would not dictate and force me to pick OT at #4.
I'd draft Wills. You rarely see the kind of smooth athletic footwork, balance, hip swivel with anchor, hand play with power, recovery ability(on the rare occasions he needs it) and finishers mentality in one OT.
1 sack allowed in 929 pass reps in the SEC and he's a plus level run blocker.
I'd draft Wills. You rarely see the kind of smooth athletic footwork, balance, hip swivel with anchor, hand play with power, recovery ability(on the rare occasions he needs it) and finishers mentality in one OT.
1 sack allowed in 929 pass reps in the SEC and he's a plus level run blocker.
Respectfully disagree with your tier placings.
I think both Okudah and Simmons are tier 1 draft prospects.
I'd draft Wills. You rarely see the kind of smooth athletic footwork, balance, hip swivel with anchor, hand play with power, recovery ability(on the rare occasions he needs it) and finishers mentality in one OT.
1 sack allowed in 929 pass reps in the SEC and he's a plus level run blocker.
Wills would be my guy if I was GM, but I think he can be a pro bowl RT for the next 8-10 years, or very close to it.
Our OL is Horrible. We need a LT, RT and a Center.
Get the LT and cut Solder and resign Golden.
Quote:
Exactly. The grades will be very close between these prospects.
I'd draft Wills. You rarely see the kind of smooth athletic footwork, balance, hip swivel with anchor, hand play with power, recovery ability(on the rare occasions he needs it) and finishers mentality in one OT.
1 sack allowed in 929 pass reps in the SEC and he's a plus level run blocker.
Respectfully disagree with your tier placings.
I think both Okudah and Simmons are tier 1 draft prospects.
Ok. That’s where we differ. Plenty here agree with you.