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A an evaluation of the state of the rebuild (Long)

twostepgiants : 5/2/2020 10:17 pm
I wanted to take a look at how far we have come by starting with a comp of the rosters when a .new GM and HC were hired to now.

End of 2017 Assumed 2020
QB- Eli Manning. Daniel Jones
RB- Paul Perkins. Saquon Barkley
WR- Odell Beckham. Golden Tate
WR- Sterling Shepard “
WR- Roger Lewis. Darius Slayton
TE- Evan Engram. “

OL- Ereck Flowers. Nate Solder
Justin Pugh. Will Hernandez
Weston Richburg. Nick Gates
Bobby Hart. Zeitler
Brett Jones. Anthony Thomas

DL- JPP. Leonard Williams
Dalvin Tomlinson. “
Olivier Vernon. Dexter Lawrence
Damon Harrison

LB- Devon Kennard. Blake Martinez
Johnathan Casillas. Ryan Connelly
BJ Goodson. Lorenzo Carter
Ryan Fackrell

S- Landon Collins. Jabril Peppers
Darrian Thompson. Xavier McKinney


CB- DRC. James Bradberry
Janoris Jenkins. DeAndre Baker

The state of the 2017 roster when a new GM and HC were hired was such that it built upon aging, underperforming and malcontented Ill-fitting pieces with no cohesive plan or scheme.

The offense was centered around its WRs with no hope of a running game. The idea was out talent everyone with OBJ, Shepherd and Engram. Eli was best at a deep throwing attack but had a WCO. The OL was a mix of run, pass and guys who could move around on the OL and did nothing very well.

The defense had guys who could do one thing well (pass rush - Vernon) or run stop (Snacks) or make plays (Jenkins) But as a whole they also couldn’t stop the run, or stop the pass or rush the passer because it relied on just 1-2 guys for each thing.

The money was tied in 5 guys. Eli, JPP, Snacks, Vernon and Jenkins for the next 2-3 years, Eli had 2 yrs left with 16-17 mil cap hits, Vernon had 3 yrs left with 13-15 mil cap hits each, Jenkins had 2 yrs left with 10-11 cap hits, Snacks had 3 yrs left on a 5 yr 46 mil deal, and JPP had 3 yrs left on a 4 yr 62 mil deal.

Three players are scheduled to account for 38.62 percent of the Giants 2018 salary-cap space. Those three are, in order, quarterback Eli Manning ($22.2 million, 15.12 percent), and defensive ends Jason Pierre-Paul ($17.5 million, 11.92 percent) and Olivier Vernon ($17 million, 11.58 percent).”

Add to that fact, the teams two best players, OBJ and Collins were approaching the last years if their contracts and would need to get paid.

This team was locked in on its core Eli, JPP, Vernon, Snacks and Jenkins for 2-3 yrs plus potentially OBJ and Collins.

The gIants were hitting 2018 in FA with just 30 mil in cap space but with only 41 roster spots filled and they had Pugh and Richburg leaving 2 spots on the OL to sign plus the vacancy by a cut Hart due to bad attitude.

That was 3 spots needed on OL with the best FA OL list being Norwell, Solder and the teams very own Justin Pugh coming in 3rd according to ESPN best available list.

Don’t forget the culture mess of Eli Apple, Bobby Hart, OBJ, Flowers, Jenkins and probably Collins as we found out.

They had a whole or more than 1 at virtually every spot on the roster and little avenue to fill said spot other than the draft.

I had little hope that any youngster on roster would rise up and pan out like Flowers or Apple due to work ethic or attitude.

The situation was not very good. that’s what Dave Gettleman inherited when he took over.

IMO a roster in need of a complete salvage, not even a rebuild.

What is this team now?

It’s core of Jones and Barkley and Thomas. They are all on rookie deals for 3 to 5 more seasons.

The team now has viable rushing (Barkley) and passing threats (Barkley, Tate, Shephard, Engram, Slayton & Lewis) and the OL will be geared around the idea of “hog mollies” big guys playing the 1 spot in the OL. There are now 3 players drafted on the OL in the top 3 rounds. Plus your QB has some mobility.

This team will now be able to absorb a cap hit if necessary on a Solder next year and the ability to move on from a Shephard or Engram by being able to target a WR in FA or the Draft next year.

On defense, the DL has a consistent theme of run stoppers. The secondary now has pieces in Bradberry. peppers and McKinney plus high investment players in Baker, Beal and Holmes that might make a powerful secondary vs the pass.

This isn’t a 1 guy for every role with a lead dog that can one thing but whole units.

The defense has Lawrence, McKinney, Baker, Peppers, Holmes, Beal all on rookie deals from 2-5 years.

The money is Williams, Martinez and Bradberry who are on 1-3 yr deals just signed with the money hits happening year 1 so they can maintain flexibility.

The problem on the D is the LB unit and pass rush and they now have the ability to target that next year in FA or the Draft.

This team still has holes (LB, C for example) and is still rebuilding. But it is very young and has cap flexibility moving forward, it is years away from having to make a key decision like on Barkley and they have a 5th year option on him (plus even if they make him the league highest paid RB that’s say 15-16 mil compared to 22 mil for a WR and they can take the bigger hit in yr 1 while you still have Jones, Thomas, Lawrence, McKinney on rookie deals.

This team is no longer Eli, Vernon, OBJ, Snacks, JPP, Jenkins, and Collins

but it is Jones, Barkley, Thomas, Lawrence, McKinney. Bradberry, Martinez and Williams.

This team can now target its holes and weaknesses with FA money and the draft, you can almost predict a 2021 offseason focus on WR and LB (edge)

The Giants also have a slew of youngsters that we hope can continue to emerge like Lawrence, Peppers, Gates, Connelly and Slayton or make the big step like Baker, Beal, Hernandez or hopefully some of this years picks hit,

I see a team that has rebuilt from the ashes and has some hope moving forward.

I see some very good things upcoming for this franchise for the first time in a long time. There is light at the end of this tunnel.




Good post  
Reale01 : 5/2/2020 10:26 pm : link
I see a lot of progress in the roster. Not so much in the record. I think the coaching staff may have held the team back a bit last year. They should have been close to 500. I am excited about the future .... at the moment.
The secret to winning  
Chip : 5/2/2020 10:53 pm : link
Is having great drafts and solid players on their rookie contracts and filling around them with your stars who have earned a second contract. This was not happening pre Gettleman. The drafting was absolutely horrible after the 2nd round. Also there were to many first round busts like Flowers, Apple both early round picks coupled with JPPs accident and the Diva WR who worked out well in the trade. It is how we ended up in a mess that was never going to be fixed in one or two years. There were other issues like Solder which was a desperation move and over paid.
I do think we are going in the right direction now except with a rookie coach and new coordinators and a young team with what will be limited practice time this seasib may turn out to be bad as well. Hopefully we stay patient with Judge and he gets year 2.
Baloney  
Mike in Boston : 5/2/2020 10:54 pm : link
We had a team that had been 11-5 the year before, that the coach lost. And instead of building around the talent that was present and bringing in a good coach, they got rid of all the talent and brought in a (to be kind) mediocre coaching staff with the result that, 3 years into a rebuild we have no more talent than we did when Gettleman got here, and the most wildly optimistic fans are hoping for an 8-8 season.
Best case scenario here for OL and health  
SGMen : 5/2/2020 10:54 pm : link
Lets assume experience wins the day:

Solder-Hernandez-Pulley-Zeitler-Thomas (rookie starter)

Lets say the coaching improves and health is improved. This OL has the potential to be better than the shit show we had last year. That would be huge for D. Jones and S. Barkley. I think we have better blocking at TE which will also help.

On defense, we have a lot of young talent but we need D. Lawrence to become a BEAST pushing the pocket and for Williams to finally flash a shade more pocket push too than his consensus past suggests. There is core talent on the DL.

I see the CV19 situation hurting us as teams will have less preparation time.
If we are a competitive 8-8 for first year Judge, well, I'd say that sounds about right.
Let's see since 2017  
bluepepper : 5/2/2020 11:37 pm : link
9 total wins. Fired the HC. The fix of our OL went so well that we had to spend 3 of our first 5 picks on OL this draft. For DB we've signed an expensive FA, used a first round pick, a 2nd round pick, a 3rd round pick, 2 4th round picks, part of a trade and still not clear we're better than average back there. Our best pass rusher unless Golden comes back is a guy who scored 1 sack as a second stringer for the Packers last year.

Getting our next franchise QB is huge and swapping Eli for DJ improves the cap situation a ton. Our DL appears stout against the run which is also a plus but all in all I'd say the post-2017 rebuild has been less than a smashing success so far.
0.500 would be a miracle but we remain optimistic  
Ivan15 : 5/2/2020 11:43 pm : link
.
RE: Baloney  
WillVAB : 5/3/2020 7:13 am : link
In comment 14894256 Mike in Boston said:
Quote:
We had a team that had been 11-5 the year before, that the coach lost. And instead of building around the talent that was present and bringing in a good coach, they got rid of all the talent and brought in a (to be kind) mediocre coaching staff with the result that, 3 years into a rebuild we have no more talent than we did when Gettleman got here, and the most wildly optimistic fans are hoping for an 8-8 season.


All of that “talent” was fool’s gold. Look at how all of those players performed after the Giants moved on. The only one who has been decent is JPP.
Kyler Fackrell  
Rjanyg : 5/3/2020 8:43 am : link
.
Mike in Boston  
cosmicj : 5/3/2020 8:48 am : link
Your view was exactly that of Mara and DG in the spring of 2018 and it’s safe to say that it proved to be comprehensively wrong. DG admitted the mistake publicly.
RE: RE: Baloney  
GiantsRage2007 : 5/3/2020 8:49 am : link
In comment 14894356 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 14894256 Mike in Boston said:


Quote:


We had a team that had been 11-5 the year before, that the coach lost. And instead of building around the talent that was present and bringing in a good coach, they got rid of all the talent and brought in a (to be kind) mediocre coaching staff with the result that, 3 years into a rebuild we have no more talent than we did when Gettleman got here, and the most wildly optimistic fans are hoping for an 8-8 season.



All of that “talent” was fool’s gold. Look at how all of those players performed after the Giants moved on. The only one who has been decent is JPP.



Probably better skill position talent in 2017 but years of ignoring and/or missing on OL/DL picks killed this team. Can't win losing at the point of attack over and over. Also, the mutiny of 2017 and subsequent 2 yr mistake with Shurmur skews our view of the 2016/2017 seasons... The team under McAdoo had tons of talent but tons of strong personalities that needed an experienced HC - a Coughlin team, McAdoo was in over his head when the losing started... too bad, I thought that 2016 team was pretty close with some additions in 2017. Then it all imploded. I will say, you'll notice of all the guys they jettisoned from that team - almost all of them have been trouble elsewhere too. Oh well...
Twostep  
cosmicj : 5/3/2020 8:52 am : link
Thanks for this post. It clearly shows what a roster mess the Giants were after 2017. Every aspect of the team was screwed up. You were even being kind by not pointing to some of the front office issues. With Ross gone and several scouts dismissed since then, you can see the work needed on that front, too.
Very good post  
Rick in Dallas : 5/3/2020 9:02 am : link
This team had to be stripped down to the bone to start the rebuild. You might add in two horrific HC hires during that period of time.
Their was a huge cancer on this team ( malcontent players) that has been cured.
I have this gut feeling that the front office has hit a home run in hiring Judge as the HC. I hope so for us Giants fans. I feel we are one good FA period and draft to be a viable contender again.
Good OP  
LBH15 : 5/3/2020 9:07 am : link
It really does show what an awful roster Gettleman inherited.

How in the world did DG incorrectly assess that team and not just start blowing it up from the beginning?

I know I put a question mark but it’s more a rhetorical.
LBH  
cosmicj : 5/3/2020 9:12 am : link
I’ll guess an answer: because the organization was a mess functionally, Gettleman was feeling awful and exhausted with a yet-undiagnosed case of lymphoma, and there were a legion of decisions to make. This led to the overwhelmed leadership making a series of mistakes.

This is an explanation, not an excuse, as they like to say. Note that since the situation stabilized, the front office decisionmaking has improved and looks downright rational, even if you don’t agree with each and every choice.
Well then...what was the turning point  
LBH15 : 5/3/2020 9:16 am : link
When did they all have the come to Jesus moment?
The week they dumped Snacks?  
LBH15 : 5/3/2020 9:18 am : link
.
...  
christian : 5/3/2020 9:25 am : link
The roster is younger, cheaper, has fewer bad contracts, and seemingly fewer knuckleheads. Extremely positive developments.

The staff looks more attractive too. Young, really bright head coach. Vet offensive coordinator with some big seasons under his belt. A bunch of guys with success at big college programs.

Gettleman has done a much better job on the locker room and sideline with this second chance.

I respect it. He really stumbled in 2018, but has recovered nicely.
There are only 3 holdovers in the starting limeup  
twostepgiants : 5/3/2020 9:32 am : link
And the bottom of the roster is the same

When you have to change over like 45-50 spots out of 53 in 2 years with limited cap space and draft picks, you are bound to have some swings and misses

Of course, Gettleman missed wildly on his first HC in Shurmur and his big free agent signing in Solder so no excuses there.
LBH  
cosmicj : 5/3/2020 9:33 am : link
Don’t know. Maybe a reassessment and more realistic view of the Giants’ situation combined with more time to make decisions? Just a guess.
this quote hits it on the head  
Eric on Li : 5/3/2020 9:48 am : link
In comment 14894448 christian said:
Quote:
The roster is younger, cheaper, has fewer bad contracts, and seemingly fewer knuckleheads. Extremely positive developments.


whether or not they got the right head coach this time will likely be the critical factor in how the results turn out, but the roster is on much more solid footing because the majority of it is homegrown from good drafts.

In the list above I count 14 starters drafted (or signed by this org as UDFA) - which is a pretty high % of starters comparatively around the league.

Of those 14:
3 were from Reese era
4 from 2018
5 from 2019
2 from 2020

Whoever wins the nickel job is likely #15 (Love or Holmes?). And 2 other starters are still sort of technically on their first contracts since they were added via trade (Peppers, LW). Bradberry was also drafted by DG, just in 2016 for Carolina but now on 2nd contract.

To be a good organization everything starts with the draft.
LBH15 - part of the reason he didn't blow it up entirely right away  
Eric on Li : 5/3/2020 9:59 am : link
OBJ was coming off surgery, needed a contract, trade value was likely all time low.

Flowers & Apple were shopped heavily with no takers.

Collins was heading into contract year coming off a pro bowl.

Vernon, Snacks, Jackrabbit were all heading into year 3 of the big contracts Reese gave them - so via trade in the offseason likely didn't hold a ton of value because other teams could just spend similarly and not give up draft picks. Plus all 3 were still border line pro bowlers and dumping them cheap would have only opened up more holes.

At the time none of those guys were obvious dumps except Flowers/Apple, and I think we all acknowledged nobody was giving anything up for them - so the clean slate approach probably made the most sense.

Also 1 thing Gettleman did blow up (rightfully) was the OL - letting Pugh/Richburg walk, cutting Jerry/Hart, and then spending most of his FA $ there, plus a top 35 pick. There's only so much resource available to spend in 1 offseason. The results didn't turn out great but turning over an entire OL in 1 offseason is not a high percentage play - it was out of desperation.
Spot on OP  
SCGiantsFan : 5/3/2020 11:33 am : link
Feeling the ground, or foundation, of franchise is more solidly built. Going forward we are in good shape. This years draft should help contribute greatly. This year might be a wash due to CV-19. That should not keep the team from continuing on its current course.

These below comments some things up really well.

Rick in Dallas : 9:02 am : link : reply
I have this gut feeling that the front office has hit a home run in hiring Judge as the HC. I hope so for us Giants fans. I feel we are one good FA period and draft to be a viable contender again

cosmicj : 9:12 am : link : reply
I’ll guess an answer: because the organization was a mess functionally, Gettleman was feeling awful and exhausted with a yet-undiagnosed case of lymphoma, and there were a legion of decisions to make. This led to the overwhelmed leadership making a series of mistakes.

christian : 9:25 am : link : reply
The roster is younger, cheaper, has fewer bad contracts, and seemingly fewer knuckleheads. Extremely positive developments.

The staff looks more attractive too. Young, really bright head coach. Vet offensive coordinator with some big seasons under his belt. A bunch of guys with success at big college programs.

Eric on Li : 9:59 am : link : reply
OBJ was coming off surgery, needed a contract, trade value was likely all time low.

Flowers & Apple were shopped heavily with no takers.

Collins was heading into contract year coming off a pro bowl.

Vernon, Snacks, Jackrabbit were all heading into year 3 of the big contracts Reese gave them - so via trade in the offseason likely didn't hold a ton of value because other teams could just spend similarly and not give up draft picks. Plus all 3 were still border line pro bowlers and dumping them cheap would have only opened up more holes.
RE: LBH15 - part of the reason he didn't blow it up entirely right away  
ColHowPepper : 5/3/2020 12:08 pm : link
In comment 14894484 Eric on Li said:What's also missing from the not blow it up right away is, imo, the ownership factor: Maras in the worst way wanted one more run for Eli. That and their propensity not to look football-critically at the years of their stewardship.
Add to twostep's good OP  
ColHowPepper : 5/3/2020 12:12 pm : link
What makes the saga even more dire, more depressing, is that the Giants had been in a more or less constant "year 1 or year 2 of re-build" since, really, 2012.

How many times did we say here, "you can't expect the re-build to be completed in one year, too many holes". It's been that way ad nauseam. Year after year, except for the chimera that was 2016, it was the same. And it's what makes the ineptitude, the failure to truly commence a re-build, that much more of a fail. It's why the Giants have been doormats in recent years.
RE: RE: LBH15 - part of the reason he didn't blow it up entirely right away  
Eric on Li : 5/3/2020 12:15 pm : link
In comment 14894604 ColHowPepper said:
Quote:
In comment 14894484 Eric on Li said:What's also missing from the not blow it up right away is, imo, the ownership factor: Maras in the worst way wanted one more run for Eli. That and their propensity not to look football-critically at the years of their stewardship.


I agree with this. There was 100% an emotional pull to not move on from Eli. But even with that emotional pull, rationally I don't think it was entirely wrong to stick with him until they found the next guy and I think it's fair to have not been sold on any of the alternatives in 2018. Especially at the expense of Barkley.
I think anyone being honest with themselves can see  
twostepgiants : 5/3/2020 12:25 pm : link
That the Giants needed to repack virtually every single starter on that team.

And that’s tough to do quickly and get right, it was at minimum a 3 yr year rebuild even if you hit on everything due to the lack of bug FA money in years 1-2 and the lack of extra picks like Dolphins just had.

Only 3 remain: Shephard, Engram and Tomlinson and Engram can probably go too and Shaphard has big injury issues. I have no issue with Tomlinson but he needs to prove he is worth a second contract.
CHP and Eric- good points  
LBH15 : 5/3/2020 12:29 pm : link
Although the blunt answer is DG missed it. He didn’t think he had to blow it up. In fact, he made many moves in the beginning that were 180 degrees in the opposite direction signing aging veterans, giving up draft picks, giving Eli his vote of confidence.

I have never been a supporter that he was given this mandate by owners. Moreso, I think they wanted DG to do his fair analysis and come with his recommendations.

Unfortunately for all...DG told them what they wanted to hear.
RE: CHP and Eric- good points  
ColHowPepper : 5/3/2020 1:09 pm : link
In comment 14894616 LBH15 said:
Quote:
Although the blunt answer is DG missed it. He didn’t think he had to blow it up. ....
I have never been a supporter that he was given this mandate by owners. Moreso, I think they wanted DG to do his fair analysis and come with his recommendations. Unfortunately for all...DG told them what they wanted to hear.
Could be. But how do you dis-entangle, how does one separate the two? They arrive at the same conclusion. I'm not sure DG had the moxie, the conviction, to butt heads with ownership.

It's why I think JJ is such a good add in the chemistry: he has conviction, and imo he's given DG a shot of backbone, even if he, alone, might finally have arrived at this 'come to Jesus' moment on his own.
and, twostep, it might be only two,  
ColHowPepper : 5/3/2020 1:10 pm : link
not three, if as I hope EE gets moved
i.e., a trade or change to WR  
ColHowPepper : 5/3/2020 1:16 pm : link
.
RE: RE: RE: Baloney  
Mike in Boston : 5/3/2020 1:42 pm : link
In comment 14894413 GiantsRage2007 said:
Quote:
In comment 14894356 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 14894256 Mike in Boston said:


Quote:


We had a team that had been 11-5 the year before, that the coach lost. And instead of building around the talent that was present and bringing in a good coach, they got rid of all the talent and brought in a (to be kind) mediocre coaching staff with the result that, 3 years into a rebuild we have no more talent than we did when Gettleman got here, and the most wildly optimistic fans are hoping for an 8-8 season.



All of that “talent” was fool’s gold. Look at how all of those players performed after the Giants moved on. The only one who has been decent is JPP.




Probably better skill position talent in 2017 but years of ignoring and/or missing on OL/DL picks killed this team. Can't win losing at the point of attack over and over. Also, the mutiny of 2017 and subsequent 2 yr mistake with Shurmur skews our view of the 2016/2017 seasons... The team under McAdoo had tons of talent but tons of strong personalities that needed an experienced HC - a Coughlin team, McAdoo was in over his head when the losing started... too bad, I thought that 2016 team was pretty close with some additions in 2017. Then it all imploded. I will say, you'll notice of all the guys they jettisoned from that team - almost all of them have been trouble elsewhere too. Oh well...


Look, we were 11-5 in 2016 with a first year head coach. Any one hoping for 11-5 this year, after three years and a total roster change? I didn't think so. So don't tell me we are better off. Now maybe the last two years make us more pessimistic than we should be about this team, but I don't think so.

The most important thing Gettleman had to do when he came on board was get a better coach, and he failed to do that. So we had to get rid of all those players with strong personalities. And replaced with younger players (which is good) with less personality (probably also good) but at best comparable. Maybe they got it right with Judge, I hope so.

Gettleman first moves were  
twostepgiants : 5/3/2020 1:51 pm : link
Hiring Shurmur

He let Pugh & Richburg walk

He let DRC and Hart go.

He signed Solder in FA and moved Flowers to RT

He signed Kareem Martin (for Bettcher presumably) and Omamheh and Stewart.

He drafted Saquon & Hernandez

He resigned OBJ to a long term big money deal.

He opted not to draft a QBs and retained Eli as an unchallenged starter.

The preponderance of the moves centered around rebuilding an OL and arming Eli with a new weapon in Barkley and a new reliable LT in Solder and a new offensive guru in Shurmur,

Gettleman definitely gambled that Eli had another year or two and might be rejuvenated with a new OL, a returning OBJ and Barkley,

What is also possible is that Gettleman decided early that the contract situation of Eli and others was untenable for an immediate rebuild and that he didn’t think any of the 2018 QBs were franchise QBs.

The only worse path than the one we were on might have been starting a rebuild around the wrong QB drafted at 2 like Josh Rosen,

It hasn’t been perfect but I think we are right path

RE: Mike in Boston  
Mike in Boston : 5/3/2020 1:54 pm : link
In comment 14894412 cosmicj said:
Quote:
Your view was exactly that of Mara and DG in the spring of 2018 and it’s safe to say that it proved to be comprehensively wrong. DG admitted the mistake publicly.


Yeah. He also said he picked Shurmur because of his professional demeanor. Which he hasn't admitted was among the the stupidest things any GM has ever done. So we wasted the first two years of rebuilding, and have no more talent than we did when Gettleman got here. How many guys do we have in the top quarter of the league at their position. Barkley and probably no one else even close. A team with average talent should have 5 or 6.

RE: RE: Mike in Boston  
Mike in Boston : 5/3/2020 1:56 pm : link
In comment 14894680 Mike in Boston said:
Quote:
In comment 14894412 cosmicj said:


Quote:


Your view was exactly that of Mara and DG in the spring of 2018 and it’s safe to say that it proved to be comprehensively wrong. DG admitted the mistake publicly.



Yeah. He also said he picked Shurmur because of his professional demeanor. Which he hasn't admitted was among the the stupidest things any GM has ever done. So we wasted the first two years of rebuilding, and have no more talent than we did when Gettleman got here. How many guys do we have in the top quarter of the league at their position. Barkley and probably no one else even close except Bradberry. A team with average talent should have 5 or 6.


Among the guys Gettleman inherited you might have found OBJ, Snacks, JPP, Jackrabbit, maybe Collins.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Baloney  
twostepgiants : 5/3/2020 1:59 pm : link
In comment 14894674 Mike in Boston said:
Quote:
In comment 14894413 GiantsRage2007 said:


Quote:


In comment 14894356 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 14894256 Mike in Boston said:


Quote:


We had a team that had been 11-5 the year before, that the coach lost. And instead of building around the talent that was present and bringing in a good coach, they got rid of all the talent and brought in a (to be kind) mediocre coaching staff with the result that, 3 years into a rebuild we have no more talent than we did when Gettleman got here, and the most wildly optimistic fans are hoping for an 8-8 season.



All of that “talent” was fool’s gold. Look at how all of those players performed after the Giants moved on. The only one who has been decent is JPP.




Probably better skill position talent in 2017 but years of ignoring and/or missing on OL/DL picks killed this team. Can't win losing at the point of attack over and over. Also, the mutiny of 2017 and subsequent 2 yr mistake with Shurmur skews our view of the 2016/2017 seasons... The team under McAdoo had tons of talent but tons of strong personalities that needed an experienced HC - a Coughlin team, McAdoo was in over his head when the losing started... too bad, I thought that 2016 team was pretty close with some additions in 2017. Then it all imploded. I will say, you'll notice of all the guys they jettisoned from that team - almost all of them have been trouble elsewhere too. Oh well...



Look, we were 11-5 in 2016 with a first year head coach. Any one hoping for 11-5 this year, after three years and a total roster change? I didn't think so. So don't tell me we are better off. Now maybe the last two years make us more pessimistic than we should be about this team, but I don't think so.

The most important thing Gettleman had to do when he came on board was get a better coach, and he failed to do that. So we had to get rid of all those players with strong personalities. And replaced with younger players (which is good) with less personality (probably also good) but at best comparable. Maybe they got it right with Judge, I hope so.


The Giants went 11-5 because they dropped a 100+ mil on the D and had an easy schedule and new HC with a new system.

The league adjusted. The Giants O fell off the rails by the end of the year and couldn’t even get 20 pts most games. The signs were already there.

In year 2, McAdoos lack of control allowed the personalities to get comfortable and take over. The schedule was tougher, the league adjusted, the coach had trouble controlling his team, the ship had hit an iceberg,

I’m not really sure what your point is. This team mostly doubled down on 2018 by adding Barkley and Solder and resigning OBJ and keeping Eli, Vernon, Snacks and Jenkins were all still here,

What are you advocating for? Keeping Ben McAdoo?

The only major changes really made to the “talent” you say they had was JPP.

So I have no idea of your real point or alternative,
RE: RE: CHP and Eric- good points  
LBH15 : 5/3/2020 2:03 pm : link
In comment 14894639 ColHowPepper said:
Quote:
In comment 14894616 LBH15 said:


Quote:


Although the blunt answer is DG missed it. He didn’t think he had to blow it up. ....
I have never been a supporter that he was given this mandate by owners. Moreso, I think they wanted DG to do his fair analysis and come with his recommendations. Unfortunately for all...DG told them what they wanted to hear.

Could be. But how do you dis-entangle, how does one separate the two? They arrive at the same conclusion. I'm not sure DG had the moxie, the conviction, to butt heads with ownership.

It's why I think JJ is such a good add in the chemistry: he has conviction, and imo he's given DG a shot of backbone, even if he, alone, might finally have arrived at this 'come to Jesus' moment on his own.


If it was or is entangled then it doesn’t work. The Giants could still have success but imagine it would be more of a flash versus reasonably sustainable.

Maybe DG did just go along but then that would have been a change in his stripes from Carolina.
RE: Good OP  
eric2425ny : 5/3/2020 2:10 pm : link
In comment 14894426 LBH15 said:
Quote:
It really does show what an awful roster Gettleman inherited.

How in the world did DG incorrectly assess that team and not just start blowing it up from the beginning?

I know I put a question mark but it’s more a rhetorical.


I think part of it is he knew he couldn’t fix it all in a season or two, but you can’t really come out and say ok everyone, this team is garbage and we won’t be good again for four or five years. Even if we all know it as fans, a GM will still try to make things look better than they are because they have to draw fans to the stadium. And you never know, maybe the team gets lucky and makes some kind of a run.
My best guess is  
twostepgiants : 5/3/2020 2:59 pm : link
Gettleman determined that this roster was a mess but did have “talent”

I think he determined that this was 3-5 year rebuild and you need a QB for a rebuild

I think DG evaluates the 2018 class and determined he did not see a franchise QB, a determination that may prove correct. That made sticking with Eli inevitable and Linley due to cap hit,

And he saw a generational talent in Barkley on the board

I think DG legitimately saw the ability to begin to dismantle (Pugh, Richburg, JPP, Hart all gone) and give Eli a shot just in case with OBJ and Saquon and a new OL while not killing his flexibility to rebuild should it flop. And I think that’s why he abandoned ship so fast when he saw reality and moved on from Snacks and Apple during the season and then traded off Odell and Vernon post season and the reversal on Collins.

LBH - this is where I think it's speculation that's unknowable  
Eric on Li : 5/3/2020 3:22 pm : link
In comment 14894616 LBH15 said:
Quote:
Although the blunt answer is DG missed it. He didn’t think he had to blow it up.


What if he believed Apple/Flowers sucked, and Snacks/Vernon/Jackrabbit were overpaid, but couldn't get anything for them?
What if he knew signing OBJ was a risk, but had no attractive alternative until he showed he was healthy on field?
What if he they weren't in love with Darnold, Rosen, or Allen?

I don't think he was as sold on the roster he inherited competing as people like to portray because he clearly hedged to keep all his future options on the table. Within weeks of the 2018 season Flowers was cut, Apple/Snacks traded, and his first moves of 2019 offseason were letting Collins walk and trading OBJ/Vernon.

The move everyone points to is cutting Eli for the sake of cutting Eli to save money and "accelerate the rebuild". Well drafting the wrong QB would have decelerated any rebuild before it started - and somebody had to play QB until they found a QB they liked in the draft.
Great point on Eli  
twostepgiants : 5/3/2020 4:06 pm : link
If we had cut him, we take not just a 16 & 17 mil cap hit for 2 years but we also need to sign a QB

Every team that drafted QB in 2018 signed or traded for a vet QB at considerable cost

Jets signed Bridgewater for up to 15 mill & McCown for 10 mil

Bills signed McCarron for 2 yrs 9 mil

Browns traded a 3rd for Tyrod Taylor and his 16 mil deal

Cards signed Bradford for 2 yrs up to 20 mil per

The Giants werent going into the 2018 season with Davis Webb and Alex Tanney at QB and Acquiring them costs
Given what we now know  
twostepgiants : 5/3/2020 4:32 pm : link
It was perhaps the best alternative what Gettleman choose.

We have kept Eli and drafted his successor and we had the passing of 5he torch and a true farewell for Eli. He went on his terms and the team is better off than they were at end of 2017 with some hope.

Had the Giants cut Manning after the fan rebellion AND not selected a successor with the 2018 2 pick, I can’t imagine the reaction to that. Lets not even get into the draft pick ramifications for 2019 for Jones,

Had they selected a QB over Barkley in 2018, which might have been Sam Darnold or Josh Rosen or Josh Allen, Rosen looks like a bust, Allen is winning but looks like he being carried by a solid team and has not overwhelmed, Darnold has flashes but has been unnervingly inconsistent. I’m not sure we would have been that thrilled with the QB spot, I’ll take Jones right now over all 3 options with Saquon.

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Baloney  
WillVAB : 5/3/2020 4:43 pm : link
In comment 14894687 twostepgiants said:
Quote:
In comment 14894674 Mike in Boston said:


Quote:


In comment 14894413 GiantsRage2007 said:


Quote:


In comment 14894356 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 14894256 Mike in Boston said:


Quote:


We had a team that had been 11-5 the year before, that the coach lost. And instead of building around the talent that was present and bringing in a good coach, they got rid of all the talent and brought in a (to be kind) mediocre coaching staff with the result that, 3 years into a rebuild we have no more talent than we did when Gettleman got here, and the most wildly optimistic fans are hoping for an 8-8 season.



All of that “talent” was fool’s gold. Look at how all of those players performed after the Giants moved on. The only one who has been decent is JPP.




Probably better skill position talent in 2017 but years of ignoring and/or missing on OL/DL picks killed this team. Can't win losing at the point of attack over and over. Also, the mutiny of 2017 and subsequent 2 yr mistake with Shurmur skews our view of the 2016/2017 seasons... The team under McAdoo had tons of talent but tons of strong personalities that needed an experienced HC - a Coughlin team, McAdoo was in over his head when the losing started... too bad, I thought that 2016 team was pretty close with some additions in 2017. Then it all imploded. I will say, you'll notice of all the guys they jettisoned from that team - almost all of them have been trouble elsewhere too. Oh well...



Look, we were 11-5 in 2016 with a first year head coach. Any one hoping for 11-5 this year, after three years and a total roster change? I didn't think so. So don't tell me we are better off. Now maybe the last two years make us more pessimistic than we should be about this team, but I don't think so.

The most important thing Gettleman had to do when he came on board was get a better coach, and he failed to do that. So we had to get rid of all those players with strong personalities. And replaced with younger players (which is good) with less personality (probably also good) but at best comparable. Maybe they got it right with Judge, I hope so.




The Giants went 11-5 because they dropped a 100+ mil on the D and had an easy schedule and new HC with a new system.

The league adjusted. The Giants O fell off the rails by the end of the year and couldn’t even get 20 pts most games. The signs were already there.

In year 2, McAdoos lack of control allowed the personalities to get comfortable and take over. The schedule was tougher, the league adjusted, the coach had trouble controlling his team, the ship had hit an iceberg,

I’m not really sure what your point is. This team mostly doubled down on 2018 by adding Barkley and Solder and resigning OBJ and keeping Eli, Vernon, Snacks and Jenkins were all still here,

What are you advocating for? Keeping Ben McAdoo?

The only major changes really made to the “talent” you say they had was JPP.

So I have no idea of your real point or alternative,


Exactly. DG made a good faith effort to make it work with all of that “talent” in ‘18 and the team started off 1-7 or something along those lines. At that point he blew it up and traded what he could.

He walked into a bad situation. Soft HC market. Tricky cap situation with aging, overpaid, under producing players. No depth. No OL.

Since then he’s churned the roster and fixed the cap. Time will tell if the personnel decisions turn into wins.
Yeah 2018 was terrible  
Mike in Boston : 5/3/2020 5:01 pm : link
Because they hired an incompetent head coach.

RE: Yeah 2018 was terrible  
twostepgiants : 5/3/2020 5:27 pm : link
In comment 14894840 Mike in Boston said:
Quote:
Because they hired an incompetent head coach.


Again, are you advocating for keeping Ben McAdoo?
I had some hope going into 2018  
djm : 5/3/2020 5:30 pm : link
That they could catch lightning in a bottle with Barkley and the skill players but really, I don’t know how anyone can really be that disappointed or surprised from the 5-11 record. We should have wanted more than shurmur but I really find it weird that giants fans crush DG at every turn. There was little magic he was going to perform heading into 2018. They had little to no real cap room. They couldn’t even really blow it all up yet. Yet all we see here are people killing DG for some of those mid level FA contracts and the big solder contract. We need to take into account how dire things were and how hamstrung the giants were plus DG didn’t hire shurmur on his own accord and even if he did, there wasn’t exactly a murderers row of HC candidates that year.

3-4 of the way into the 2018 season the real rebuild truly began. Maybe it was a few months too late maybe not, but there’s little doubt DG did what was needed these last 2 years or so. And when you really boil down all the moves and nitpick the negatives, there’s very little to be concerned about going forward, as far as team building and roster construction / flexibility is concerned. Now we just need to grow and win.
RE: LBH - this is where I think it's speculation that's unknowable  
LBH15 : 5/3/2020 5:34 pm : link
In comment 14894750 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 14894616 LBH15 said:


Quote:


Although the blunt answer is DG missed it. He didn’t think he had to blow it up.



What if he believed Apple/Flowers sucked, and Snacks/Vernon/Jackrabbit were overpaid, but couldn't get anything for them?
What if he knew signing OBJ was a risk, but had no attractive alternative until he showed he was healthy on field?
What if he they weren't in love with Darnold, Rosen, or Allen?

I don't think he was as sold on the roster he inherited competing as people like to portray because he clearly hedged to keep all his future options on the table. Within weeks of the 2018 season Flowers was cut, Apple/Snacks traded, and his first moves of 2019 offseason were letting Collins walk and trading OBJ/Vernon.

The move everyone points to is cutting Eli for the sake of cutting Eli to save money and "accelerate the rebuild". Well drafting the wrong QB would have decelerated any rebuild before it started - and somebody had to play QB until they found a QB they liked in the draft.


Eric I just can’t get there on your points albeit fair views. If DG wasn’t sold on the roster then you go into rebuild mode and do everything you can to shed salaries, accumulate picks via trades and trade downs, get younger, try out other roster players, etc. He did none of this, in fact the opposite. And you certainly don’t go running back #2 if you don’t like your roster, even in general.

Most of his misses revolve around not making a better decision with Eli. He felt he could win still, and bought him pieces to do it. But 2011 was a long time ago, and Eli couldn’t save this flawed roster anymore,

I would have been fine not going QB in 2018 if DG couldn’t get there with his evaluations. So Eli stays on the payroll another year...not ideal but whatever. But certainly need to convert that pick into more than just a good running back as it truly was the only good asset they had to work with other than OBJ.

Again, in my view he missed it. And I cannot get behind a view that he didn’t like his roster but was hamstrung from changing it and therefore decided to just hang with Eli, pay Solder a fortune and draft a running back #2 overall. Those themes don’t work together.



We don’t even need to kill Shurmur  
djm : 5/3/2020 5:38 pm : link
To me he’s a footnote in our history. When the fire was raging he didn’t allow it to spread or reek any more havoc. It most definitely could have been worse, as crazy as that sounds. Giants got more value out of beckham than we probably deserved and shurmur can take some of that credit. We got more value out of a lot of guys than we probably should have gotten and at the very least, shurmur didn’t get Daniel Jones killed both physically and mentally. At least shurmur sort of kept the house from rotting from the inside out and jones is poised for a nice career.

In my view mcadoo was even worse than we even know. The moment we hired this guy as HC the inevitable long dark path of the wilderness took hold. There was no way out until the giants went through it and then conducted the purge. And here we are...
On Barkley  
twostepgiants : 5/3/2020 5:48 pm : link
I think people need to remember he had literally a record setting rookie season. He had over 2000 total yards, 15 TDs and 90 recs and 5 yds per carry. It was a monster year

Saquon opened up the 2019 season with 2 straight 100+ yd games on almost 8 yds per carry

Then he got hurt a few carries into game 3.

When he finally got healthy the last 3 games he had over 400 yds and 5 TD in last 3 games. He had a 90 receiving game to boot, those numbers in 3 games are nuts,

I think people have lost kinda touch with Saquon and how much he dominates. The 5 games he was healthy he was phenomenal.

He got hurt, it happens. He tried to play through it, this is not a long term injury or a career one.

Lets see what 2020 has in store for Saquon Barkley before passing a judgement on the pick.
RE: RE: LBH - this is where I think it's speculation that's unknowable  
Eric on Li : 5/3/2020 6:00 pm : link
In comment 14894873 LBH15 said:
Quote:

Eric I just can’t get there on your points albeit fair views. If DG wasn’t sold on the roster then you go into rebuild mode and do everything you can to shed salaries, accumulate picks via trades and trade downs, get younger, try out other roster players, etc. He did none of this, in fact the opposite. And you certainly don’t go running back #2 if you don’t like your roster, even in general.



You're forgetting he also traded JPP for a 3rd. I'm not arguing he was in full rebuild mode, my point is that I don't think he was entirely in go for it mode either. He was starting a roster transition. He showed both that he was willing to deal overpaid vets when he got good value back but also willing to give the talent that was here a chance to show they were more like their '16 performances than '17. And I would argue it was less of a choice and more just a reality because nobody was likely willing to give up much of anything up for them.

If Gettleman came in and did a full rebuild right away, what is different today? As far as I can tell we'd possibly have some more cap room but also possibly have gotten a little bit less in trades.
Ouur rebuild has been a long, strange one  
Matt M. : 5/3/2020 6:00 pm : link
because of mistakes made by the current GM, prior GM and prior 2 coaches. We should have been rebuilding in 2016, but the offensive success in 2015 with the new WCO offense was overly relied upon. When McAdoo became HC, his offense miraculously changed. But, the initial WCO success caused us, in part, to place a lower priority on the OL. And, of course we ignored LB. Then Gettleman/Shurmer made the mistake of thinking we could compete with some tweaks that first year. That also set us back.

So, is this year 1 of the current rebuild or something like year 5 of a weird rebuild?

On top of that, I think if we had a draft like this one a few years ago, we very well may have been witnessing a wonderful golden year period for Eli with some playoffs involved. Instead, he toiled behind one of the worst OLs I've seen in 35 years of watching football for about 3 or 4 seasons, to go along with one of the historically worst defenses and a terrible coaching staff top to bottom.

Today, I am optimistic in the current regime because they seem interested in prioritizing actually coaching up players and positions and are not married to a bad scheme regardless of personnel. At least on paper, there will also be some accountability. I believe with this draft and the current staff, we should at least return to respectability and competitive, good for 7-8 wins. IF we build on that, I axpect to compete in 2021.
Matt - it's been a long decay with 3 distinct "retool attempts" IMO  
Eric on Li : 5/3/2020 6:39 pm : link
Retool #1 2010-2012 a lot of the core from the 2007 SB team remained but they also added some good players like Rolle, Canty, Boley via FA with a lot of good young players Nicks, Phillips, JPP, Joseph, Cruz, etc. They won another SB so I'd call that a successful retool.

Retool #2 2013-2015 was the first bottoming out started on the field with the 0-6 start to the 2013 year. Reaching for Pugh was the first step towards failing to finally rebuild the OL and after this season they then compounded the mistake by signing Schwartz/drafting Richburg in 14, and then drafting Flowers in 15. Other bad moves along the way were letting Joseph walk in FA and signing Beason to a big deal. This was an extremely poor 3 year period of roster management (and injury luck - JPP fireworks, Phillips knee, Wilson neck, Beatty pec, Cruz knee) and the poor performance on the field led to Coughlin getting the axe. Without OBJ this would have been the end of Reese too. Unsuccessful retool #1.

2016-2017 this is where things got real bad with a double dip of failed retools and what appeared to be a civil war over Eli. McAdoo was a terrible coach, Reese continued to make bad picks like Apple and stick with his earlier bad picks like Flowers/Hart, and spent like crazy for another retool of the D (which did kind of work). Blind squirrel found a nut in 2016 but 2017 became a rock bottom of epic proportions. Very unsuccessful retool #2.

That brings us to 2018-2020, which I would call transitional rebuild. Could they have dynamited the roster in a more profound way? Yes. But I'm not sure what tangible benefit it would have brought bc they weren't going to rebuild it in 1 year any way. They purged most of thoe players within 12 months and got good trade value when they did so. Hiring Shurmur was clearly a move intended to help bring in a new QB since that was his specialty. Though he perhaps was a good mentor for Jones, as HC he was a disaster. I see a noticeable improvement in the roster building in this period compared to the previous regime (like the OP) but if we've learned anything it's that getting the coach right is equally if not even more important.
RE: RE: RE: LBH - this is where I think it's speculation that's unknowable  
LBH15 : 5/3/2020 6:42 pm : link
In comment 14894891 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 14894873 LBH15 said:


Quote:



Eric I just can’t get there on your points albeit fair views. If DG wasn’t sold on the roster then you go into rebuild mode and do everything you can to shed salaries, accumulate picks via trades and trade downs, get younger, try out other roster players, etc. He did none of this, in fact the opposite. And you certainly don’t go running back #2 if you don’t like your roster, even in general.





You're forgetting he also traded JPP for a 3rd. I'm not arguing he was in full rebuild mode, my point is that I don't think he was entirely in go for it mode either. He was starting a roster transition. He showed both that he was willing to deal overpaid vets when he got good value back but also willing to give the talent that was here a chance to show they were more like their '16 performances than '17. And I would argue it was less of a choice and more just a reality because nobody was likely willing to give up much of anything up for them.

If Gettleman came in and did a full rebuild right away, what is different today? As far as I can tell we'd possibly have some more cap room but also possibly have gotten a little bit less in trades.


I think the structure around DJ would have been further along. I admit I don’t know how much but clearly further. We are all just sitting here in year 3 and still have zero idea whether this is working.
Maybe I'm mising something?  
Marty866b : 5/3/2020 7:00 pm : link
From 3-13 to 5-11 to 4-12 and STILL have one of the worst rosters in the NFL with holes just about everywhere and we're praising this GM? From 2018 until 2020 we have drafted #2,#6, and #4 in the draft. We've had five first round selections in the last three years. You would think that any fairly competent GM should improve the overall talent on the roster besides having money to spend on free agents. We are 9-23 with this GM and it's time to see some better results on the field. We have a new coach and no one knows if he is the right choice but he has seemingly assembled a good coaching staff and has said all the right things.
I'm just tired of watching terrible, losing football.
sorry but I'm calling bs re: structure around QB not being a priority  
Eric on Li : 5/3/2020 7:06 pm : link
building structure around whoever the QB of the future was exactly what they prioritized when they:

hired QB guru Shurmur
pumped a ton of resource into OL (Solder + Hernandez + Zeitler)
acquired QB friendly weapons like Barkley/Golden Tate
and even when they kept Eli around as a safety net/mentor and traded OBJ

All of those things helped Daniel Jones before he was even drafted. With hindsight there are always going to be some misses that could have been avoided (especially hiring Shurmur) but as we look at the roster today there's probably as good of a structure around Jones as we could have hoped for turning over 8 of the 10 other players on the offense.
No I disagree. Structure could have been done and  
LBH15 : 5/3/2020 8:11 pm : link
implemented much better. Solder, Ogletree, Tate, Stewart, Bethea, Remmers and other middling veterans who’s best days were clearly behind them. No investment in credible pass rushers. No look towards youth on the Oline other than Hernandez.

Even this draft, DG had to implement a strategy for the Oline. It had to be done because of both poor and lack of investment earlier. And we still don’t have a reliable Center and had to bypass a strong WR pool because of these desperate needs.

Structure could have been planned out much better.
I’m not sure anyone is praising the GM here  
twostepgiants : 5/3/2020 8:25 pm : link
I certainly am not, he has made mistakes. Overall I feel like we are on the right track.
RE: No I disagree. Structure could have been done and  
Eric on Li : 5/3/2020 8:28 pm : link
In comment 14894949 LBH15 said:
Quote:
implemented much better. Solder, Ogletree, Tate, Stewart, Bethea, Remmers and other middling veterans who’s best days were clearly behind them. No investment in credible pass rushers. No look towards youth on the Oline other than Hernandez.

Even this draft, DG had to implement a strategy for the Oline. It had to be done because of both poor and lack of investment earlier. And we still don’t have a reliable Center and had to bypass a strong WR pool because of these desperate needs.

Structure could have been planned out much better.


I'd be interested to hear you explain how. It's pretty easy to look back at the domain of who was available over the last 2 years. What would have been better in your eyes?
...  
christian : 5/3/2020 8:55 pm : link
It's entertaining the extent some will go to avoid accepting a simple concept Gettleman admits -- he miscalculated 2018.

Forget about the bottom of the roster acquisitions and decisions. He got Solder, Martin, Omameh, and Ogletree wrong. The four biggest acquisitions all fell flat.

Imagine if Bradberry, Martinez, Frackrell, and Williams all bomb. Would that be fine to excuse away?

And the point isn't "they didn't hamstring the team going forward."

The point is when you bring in a pro personnel expert, you need him to get these moves right.

Imagine if the Giants had a quality vet LT, inside linebacker, outside linebacker and got right guard squared away earlier.

How much better would this team be?
RE: ...  
Eric on Li : 5/3/2020 9:27 pm : link
In comment 14894985 christian said:
Quote:
It's entertaining the extent some will go to avoid accepting a simple concept Gettleman admits -- he miscalculated 2018.

Forget about the bottom of the roster acquisitions and decisions. He got Solder, Martin, Omameh, and Ogletree wrong. The four biggest acquisitions all fell flat.

Imagine if Bradberry, Martinez, Frackrell, and Williams all bomb. Would that be fine to excuse away?

And the point isn't "they didn't hamstring the team going forward."

The point is when you bring in a pro personnel expert, you need him to get these moves right.

Imagine if the Giants had a quality vet LT, inside linebacker, outside linebacker and got right guard squared away earlier.

How much better would this team be?


I don't think anyone would dispute the results of the '18 FA were poor. The players he added didn't produce. I do think they invested in the right positions though.
Christian  
twostepgiants : 5/3/2020 10:16 pm : link
The difference between 2018 and 2020 is

The Giant in 2018 with the exception of Solder where bargain basement hunting, we signed Martin due to his familiarity with Bettcher and his system for 3 yr 21 mil, 7 mil that’s about 40th or so in NFL. We signed Omamah for 3 yr 15 mil, 5 mil per that’s in the 80-90th range of NFL. Ogletree was acquired with a 7th rounder for a 4th and 6th pick.

The Giants only had 30 mil to spend and had 12 roster spaces to fill plus 3 starting OL slots, we were very limited in choice.

These were not bi game hunting acquisitions. Solder was devastating though.

Unfortunately with Solder we went “shopping hungry” as Gettleman says. We were turned by Norwell and the next best OL was our own Justin Pugh. We had 3 vacancies on OL to fill

This year we signed James Bradberry to the 4th highest paid CB contract. Martinez is the 23rd highest paid LB. in both situations there were some choices and we could have went after other positions like RT and opted to draft a CB or LB at 4.

Williams we deliberately traded for early and a 3rd rounder to get the rights to tag him for FA and we paid him a tag dollar at 16 mil which is top 5 at DT and we know he would dispute it for DE tag.

Fackrell is bargain hunting on a 1 yr 4.5 mil deal.

This year would be devastating because we had 80+ mil in FA to spend and a lot of choices so to botch it would be terrible.
There are some that will say DG went shopping hungry  
LBH15 : 5/3/2020 10:31 pm : link
in this last draft as well.

Pulling up OTs versus better available players because of desperation, mostly caused be him not getting the OL fixed.

RE: RE: ...  
LBH15 : 5/3/2020 10:37 pm : link
In comment 14895022 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 14894985 christian said:


Quote:


It's entertaining the extent some will go to avoid accepting a simple concept Gettleman admits -- he miscalculated 2018.

Forget about the bottom of the roster acquisitions and decisions. He got Solder, Martin, Omameh, and Ogletree wrong. The four biggest acquisitions all fell flat.

Imagine if Bradberry, Martinez, Frackrell, and Williams all bomb. Would that be fine to excuse away?

And the point isn't "they didn't hamstring the team going forward."

The point is when you bring in a pro personnel expert, you need him to get these moves right.

Imagine if the Giants had a quality vet LT, inside linebacker, outside linebacker and got right guard squared away earlier.

How much better would this team be?



I don't think anyone would dispute the results of the '18 FA were poor. The players he added didn't produce. I do think they invested in the right positions though.


I would disagree when it came to the career life cycle those free agents he signed were on. They weren’t building block free agents...they were supplements. And his lack of positional awareness in 2018 and some of 2019 has hurt this team. Hopefully it didn’t again in 2020.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
Eric on Li : 5/3/2020 11:01 pm : link
In comment 14895082 LBH15 said:
Quote:


I would disagree when it came to the career life cycle those free agents he signed were on. They weren’t building block free agents...they were supplements. And his lack of positional awareness in 2018 and some of 2019 has hurt this team. Hopefully it didn’t again in 2020.


what "building block" player has gotten to FA in the last 3 offseasons?

what positions have they spent the most $ on via FA/trades?
Would have to look but guys like Solder, Bethea  
LBH15 : 5/3/2020 11:25 pm : link
and Tate don’t move much if anything forward.
And the positional awareness comment  
LBH15 : 5/3/2020 11:27 pm : link
was to drafts.
...  
christian : 5/4/2020 12:18 am : link
These are the real total costs of the 4 players from 2018 over the last two years, and the minimum real costs for the UFAs signed this year if they are Giants 2 or less years.

The point is the 4 vets signed to be multi-year starters, cost more and at a higher percentage of the cap, and all sucked. The most expensive vets you sign should be good players.

At least Frackrell and Williams are rentals, even if an outcome where Williams stays one year is a let down.

Alec Ogletree - 19.9 (Terminated)
Patrick Omameh - 10.05 (Terminated)
Kareem Martin - 11.1 (Terminated)
Nate Solder - 35 (To Date)
76.05

Bradbery- 29.8M (Minimum guaranteed)
Martinez - 19M
Frackrell - 3.5
Williams - 16.2
68.5
RE: ...  
twostepgiants : 5/4/2020 3:36 am : link
In comment 14895122 christian said:
Quote:
These are the real total costs of the 4 players from 2018 over the last two years, and the minimum real costs for the UFAs signed this year if they are Giants 2 or less years.

The point is the 4 vets signed to be multi-year starters, cost more and at a higher percentage of the cap, and all sucked. The most expensive vets you sign should be good players.

At least Frackrell and Williams are rentals, even if an outcome where Williams stays one year is a let down.

Alec Ogletree - 19.9 (Terminated)
Patrick Omameh - 10.05 (Terminated)
Kareem Martin - 11.1 (Terminated)
Nate Solder - 35 (To Date)
76.05

Bradbery- 29.8M (Minimum guaranteed)
Martinez - 19M
Frackrell - 3.5
Williams - 16.2
68.5


Those numbers are a bit misleading but I understand your point. The 2018 FA hurt and Im not saying it didnt

My point has been that the State if the 2017 roster left it so that mistakes like these we’re likely

We were cap strapped with tons of vacancies and overwhelming needs. We needed to find 3 OL starters in the 2018 offseason had very little money to accomplish this .

When you need to overturn like 45/48 of 53 roster spots in just 2 years you are going to have some serious missteps.

It is a shame that DG missed on virtually all of our 2018 & 2019 FA signings especially Solder. That has definitely set this rebuild back.

No mgt team is capable of being right like that.
RE: RE: Yeah 2018 was terrible  
Mike in Boston : 5/4/2020 7:09 am : link
In comment 14894867 twostepgiants said:
Quote:
In comment 14894840 Mike in Boston said:


Quote:


Because they hired an incompetent head coach.




Again, are you advocating for keeping Ben McAdoo?


If you are only counted coaches hired that off-season, what about Vrabel. For that matter if Judge is a better answer, we could have hired him two years ago as well as now. The idea that the only choices available were MacAdoo or Shurmur is nonsense. There are always any number of coaches available, and others might have been lure from the college ranks with the right offer.
RE: ...  
Big Blue '56 : 5/4/2020 7:22 am : link
In comment 14894448 christian said:
Quote:
The roster is younger, cheaper, has fewer bad contracts, and seemingly fewer knuckleheads. Extremely positive developments.

The staff looks more attractive too. Young, really bright head coach. Vet offensive coordinator with some big seasons under his belt. A bunch of guys with success at big college programs.

Gettleman has done a much better job on the locker room and sideline with this second chance.

I respect it. He really stumbled in 2018, but has recovered nicely.


Did you just say something nice here? 😎

Spot on post, imo
It's about two things,  
RollBlue : 5/4/2020 8:40 am : link
1. Is Judge the right guy? Coaching has been below average for 5-6 years.
2. Is Jones the right guy to replace Eli - QB play has been on the decline for 3-4 years.
RE: RE: RE: Yeah 2018 was terrible  
twostepgiants : 5/4/2020 8:47 am : link
In comment 14895162 Mike in Boston said:
Quote:
In comment 14894867 twostepgiants said:


Quote:


In comment 14894840 Mike in Boston said:


Quote:


Because they hired an incompetent head coach.




Again, are you advocating for keeping Ben McAdoo?



If you are only counted coaches hired that off-season, what about Vrabel. For that matter if Judge is a better answer, we could have hired him two years ago as well as now. The idea that the only choices available were MacAdoo or Shurmur is nonsense. There are always any number of coaches available, and others might have been lure from the college ranks with the right offer.


There is the realm of what is realistic. For example, I’m sure there will be some All-Pro or maybe even a future HoFer drafted well after us like Ed Reed and Ray Lewis, But it’s not fair to say we “should” have taken them at 4 and known.

The major coaching candidates were Josh McDaniels, Matt Patricia, Steve Wilks and Pat Shurmur and I believe all of them were offered interviews with every single team that was interviewing that year. Those were the real choices. The Giants kind of gave interviews Steve Spagnuolo and Eric sTudesville out of courtesy,

I think it’s fair to say that those were the candidates. If you have a gripe it should be out of the guys who were realistic to hire.

Mike Vrabel and Frank Reich got jobs after this period and had very few interviews. The Tennessee job opened late with an unexpected firing and the Colts job reopened after McDaniels turned it down. I believe Reich was only interviewed by the Colts. Vrabel also interviewed with the Lions due to the NE Gm connection

As for Judge he wasn’t interviewed by anyone until 2 years later and that was the Giants and he was seemingly. Headed to the college ranks,

There was no obvious choice the Giants passed on, and it’s likley that Tennessee, had they not made the playoffs, may have even went for one of the McDaniels-Patricia-Shurmur-Wilks first for the job over Vrabel.

Vrabel is 50-50 hindsight, we should have taken the guy that we know panned out even though he was on no-ones radar then. You probably can’t find a single BBIer who was arguing at seasons end - you know what Mike Vrabel is the guy, hire him!

So it’s really an unfair criticism.
Sure for me that was hindsight  
Mike in Boston : 5/10/2020 10:00 am : link
But Gettleman was getting paid to find the best available coach, not interview the same guys everyone else was interviewing. He's supposed to know that in foresight. There is no excuse for hiring Shurmur. And the reason he gave "He had a professional demeanor" is absurd.

We are three years into a rebuild and no one has hopes of winning 6 games, much less making the playoffs. You can't gey more incompetent that that as a GM.
I put HC decisions more on Mara  
ron mexico : 5/10/2020 10:16 am : link
Than Gettleman.
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/10/2020 2:32 pm : link
Besides the absurdity of having "no hope", what is the proper way to rebuild. What is the right timing??

Quote:
We are three years into a rebuild and no one has hopes of winning 6 games, much less making the playoffs. You can't gey more incompetent that that as a GM.


How long was the Niners rebuild? And what were John Lynch's results the first two seasons?

Did the Jaguars or Raiders ever rebuilld or just have blips of a decent season and then go back to poor/mediocre?

How long was the Rams rebuild?

We see very few rebuilds these days. We see a franchise QB who can help turn a team around quickly or we see long stretches of mediocrity like with the Bills and Lions where the rebuild is perpetual with hope intermittently sprinkled in.

What's the proper rebuild?
I think the idea is to build an organization that can have continued  
ron mexico : 5/10/2020 3:12 pm : link
Success. We should be aiming for the Steelers and the pats, not the raiders and the jags.
...  
christian : 5/10/2020 4:34 pm : link
The better question is probably what’s a fair window to judge whether the leaders charged with building the team have displayed the requisite ability to build a consistent winner.

In the post 2004 Bill Polian rule change era (what really should be considered the demarcation of this era of football) — I believe only one team has won a Super Bowl with a sub .500 record the previous year, the Eagles.

Champions are by and large ascending or in their window. The Giants need to get to that.

My take is a GM should be able to get a team in that window after three full off seasons. Three drafts, three UFA seasons, three shots at prepping the roster.

If the Giants aren’t at or close to .500 this year, it’s a big concern.

There is probably a good bit of subjectivity to a proper rebuild  
LBH15 : 5/10/2020 4:49 pm : link
but drafting #6 and #4 in the two years following the year you hit rock bottom and drafted #2 isn’t giving anyone “warm n’ fuzzies”.

But that is the result of missing it with Eli and the roster as a whole coming out of the box. We hope.
My take is Gettleman made a lot of mistakes in 2018  
SGMen : 5/10/2020 6:22 pm : link
First, trying to keep a winning team going while rebuilding was not a smart move. Hiring Shurmur was clearly not a good move. UFA signings that didn't work out. But he didn't have a crystal ball either.

He drafted well in 2019 and while yes it is way to early to tell for 2020 I do believe LT Thomas and FS McKinney were solid picks that will start as rookies and likely play well given their pedigrees and experience.

I am still holding out hope that an upgraded OC is available via cuts or perhaps some crazy trade (#6 plus a player or something?).

I think we are in great shape for a run in 2021 and beyond. The key is Jones development; finding a pass rush from the scheme by utilizing player strengths and matching up & timing blitzes well; and, health.
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