I wanted to take a look at how far we have come by starting with a comp of the rosters when a .new GM and HC were hired to now.
End of 2017 Assumed 2020
QB- Eli Manning. Daniel Jones
RB- Paul Perkins. Saquon Barkley
WR- Odell Beckham. Golden Tate
WR- Sterling Shepard “
WR- Roger Lewis. Darius Slayton
TE- Evan Engram. “
OL- Ereck Flowers. Nate Solder
Justin Pugh. Will Hernandez
Weston Richburg. Nick Gates
Bobby Hart. Zeitler
Brett Jones. Anthony Thomas
DL- JPP. Leonard Williams
Dalvin Tomlinson. “
Olivier Vernon. Dexter Lawrence
Damon Harrison
LB- Devon Kennard. Blake Martinez
Johnathan Casillas. Ryan Connelly
BJ Goodson. Lorenzo Carter
Ryan Fackrell
S- Landon Collins. Jabril Peppers
Darrian Thompson. Xavier McKinney
CB- DRC. James Bradberry
Janoris Jenkins. DeAndre Baker
The state of the 2017 roster when a new GM and HC were hired was such that it built upon aging, underperforming and malcontented Ill-fitting pieces with no cohesive plan or scheme.
The offense was centered around its WRs with no hope of a running game. The idea was out talent everyone with OBJ, Shepherd and Engram. Eli was best at a deep throwing attack but had a WCO. The OL was a mix of run, pass and guys who could move around on the OL and did nothing very well.
The defense had guys who could do one thing well (pass rush - Vernon) or run stop (Snacks) or make plays (Jenkins) But as a whole they also couldn’t stop the run, or stop the pass or rush the passer because it relied on just 1-2 guys for each thing.
The money was tied in 5 guys. Eli, JPP, Snacks, Vernon and Jenkins for the next 2-3 years, Eli had 2 yrs left with 16-17 mil cap hits, Vernon had 3 yrs left with 13-15 mil cap hits each, Jenkins had 2 yrs left with 10-11 cap hits, Snacks had 3 yrs left on a 5 yr 46 mil deal, and JPP had 3 yrs left on a 4 yr 62 mil deal.
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Three players are scheduled to account for 38.62 percent of the Giants 2018 salary-cap space. Those three are, in order, quarterback Eli Manning ($22.2 million, 15.12 percent), and defensive ends Jason Pierre-Paul ($17.5 million, 11.92 percent) and Olivier Vernon ($17 million, 11.58 percent).”
Add to that fact, the teams two best players, OBJ and Collins were approaching the last years if their contracts and would need to get paid.
This team was locked in on its core Eli, JPP, Vernon, Snacks and Jenkins for 2-3 yrs plus potentially OBJ and Collins.
The gIants were hitting 2018 in FA with just 30 mil in cap space but with only 41 roster spots filled and they had Pugh and Richburg leaving 2 spots on the OL to sign plus the vacancy by a cut Hart due to bad attitude.
That was 3 spots needed on OL with the best FA OL list being Norwell, Solder and the teams very own Justin Pugh coming in 3rd according to ESPN best available list.
Don’t forget the culture mess of Eli Apple, Bobby Hart, OBJ, Flowers, Jenkins and probably Collins as we found out.
They had a whole or more than 1 at virtually every spot on the roster and little avenue to fill said spot other than the draft.
I had little hope that any youngster on roster would rise up and pan out like Flowers or Apple due to work ethic or attitude.
The situation was not very good. that’s what Dave Gettleman inherited when he took over.
IMO a roster in need of a complete salvage, not even a rebuild.
What is this team now?
It’s core of Jones and Barkley and Thomas. They are all on rookie deals for 3 to 5 more seasons.
The team now has viable rushing (Barkley) and passing threats (Barkley, Tate, Shephard, Engram, Slayton & Lewis) and the OL will be geared around the idea of “hog mollies” big guys playing the 1 spot in the OL. There are now 3 players drafted on the OL in the top 3 rounds. Plus your QB has some mobility.
This team will now be able to absorb a cap hit if necessary on a Solder next year and the ability to move on from a Shephard or Engram by being able to target a WR in FA or the Draft next year.
On defense, the DL has a consistent theme of run stoppers. The secondary now has pieces in Bradberry. peppers and McKinney plus high investment players in Baker, Beal and Holmes that might make a powerful secondary vs the pass.
This isn’t a 1 guy for every role with a lead dog that can one thing but whole units.
The defense has Lawrence, McKinney, Baker, Peppers, Holmes, Beal all on rookie deals from 2-5 years.
The money is Williams, Martinez and Bradberry who are on 1-3 yr deals just signed with the money hits happening year 1 so they can maintain flexibility.
The problem on the D is the LB unit and pass rush and they now have the ability to target that next year in FA or the Draft.
This team still has holes (LB, C for example) and is still rebuilding. But it is very young and has cap flexibility moving forward, it is years away from having to make a key decision like on Barkley and they have a 5th year option on him (plus even if they make him the league highest paid RB that’s say 15-16 mil compared to 22 mil for a WR and they can take the bigger hit in yr 1 while you still have Jones, Thomas, Lawrence, McKinney on rookie deals.
This team is no longer Eli, Vernon, OBJ, Snacks, JPP, Jenkins, and Collins
but it is Jones, Barkley, Thomas, Lawrence, McKinney. Bradberry, Martinez and Williams.
This team can now target its holes and weaknesses with FA money and the draft, you can almost predict a 2021 offseason focus on WR and LB (edge)
The Giants also have a slew of youngsters that we hope can continue to emerge like Lawrence, Peppers, Gates, Connelly and Slayton or make the big step like Baker, Beal, Hernandez or hopefully some of this years picks hit,
I see a team that has rebuilt from the ashes and has some hope moving forward.
I see some very good things upcoming for this franchise for the first time in a long time. There is light at the end of this tunnel.
I do think we are going in the right direction now except with a rookie coach and new coordinators and a young team with what will be limited practice time this seasib may turn out to be bad as well. Hopefully we stay patient with Judge and he gets year 2.
Solder-Hernandez-Pulley-Zeitler-Thomas (rookie starter)
Lets say the coaching improves and health is improved. This OL has the potential to be better than the shit show we had last year. That would be huge for D. Jones and S. Barkley. I think we have better blocking at TE which will also help.
On defense, we have a lot of young talent but we need D. Lawrence to become a BEAST pushing the pocket and for Williams to finally flash a shade more pocket push too than his consensus past suggests. There is core talent on the DL.
I see the CV19 situation hurting us as teams will have less preparation time.
If we are a competitive 8-8 for first year Judge, well, I'd say that sounds about right.
Getting our next franchise QB is huge and swapping Eli for DJ improves the cap situation a ton. Our DL appears stout against the run which is also a plus but all in all I'd say the post-2017 rebuild has been less than a smashing success so far.
All of that “talent” was fool’s gold. Look at how all of those players performed after the Giants moved on. The only one who has been decent is JPP.
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We had a team that had been 11-5 the year before, that the coach lost. And instead of building around the talent that was present and bringing in a good coach, they got rid of all the talent and brought in a (to be kind) mediocre coaching staff with the result that, 3 years into a rebuild we have no more talent than we did when Gettleman got here, and the most wildly optimistic fans are hoping for an 8-8 season.
All of that “talent” was fool’s gold. Look at how all of those players performed after the Giants moved on. The only one who has been decent is JPP.
Probably better skill position talent in 2017 but years of ignoring and/or missing on OL/DL picks killed this team. Can't win losing at the point of attack over and over. Also, the mutiny of 2017 and subsequent 2 yr mistake with Shurmur skews our view of the 2016/2017 seasons... The team under McAdoo had tons of talent but tons of strong personalities that needed an experienced HC - a Coughlin team, McAdoo was in over his head when the losing started... too bad, I thought that 2016 team was pretty close with some additions in 2017. Then it all imploded. I will say, you'll notice of all the guys they jettisoned from that team - almost all of them have been trouble elsewhere too. Oh well...
Their was a huge cancer on this team ( malcontent players) that has been cured.
I have this gut feeling that the front office has hit a home run in hiring Judge as the HC. I hope so for us Giants fans. I feel we are one good FA period and draft to be a viable contender again.
How in the world did DG incorrectly assess that team and not just start blowing it up from the beginning?
I know I put a question mark but it’s more a rhetorical.
This is an explanation, not an excuse, as they like to say. Note that since the situation stabilized, the front office decisionmaking has improved and looks downright rational, even if you don’t agree with each and every choice.
The staff looks more attractive too. Young, really bright head coach. Vet offensive coordinator with some big seasons under his belt. A bunch of guys with success at big college programs.
Gettleman has done a much better job on the locker room and sideline with this second chance.
I respect it. He really stumbled in 2018, but has recovered nicely.
When you have to change over like 45-50 spots out of 53 in 2 years with limited cap space and draft picks, you are bound to have some swings and misses
Of course, Gettleman missed wildly on his first HC in Shurmur and his big free agent signing in Solder so no excuses there.
whether or not they got the right head coach this time will likely be the critical factor in how the results turn out, but the roster is on much more solid footing because the majority of it is homegrown from good drafts.
In the list above I count 14 starters drafted (or signed by this org as UDFA) - which is a pretty high % of starters comparatively around the league.
Of those 14:
3 were from Reese era
4 from 2018
5 from 2019
2 from 2020
Whoever wins the nickel job is likely #15 (Love or Holmes?). And 2 other starters are still sort of technically on their first contracts since they were added via trade (Peppers, LW). Bradberry was also drafted by DG, just in 2016 for Carolina but now on 2nd contract.
To be a good organization everything starts with the draft.
Flowers & Apple were shopped heavily with no takers.
Collins was heading into contract year coming off a pro bowl.
Vernon, Snacks, Jackrabbit were all heading into year 3 of the big contracts Reese gave them - so via trade in the offseason likely didn't hold a ton of value because other teams could just spend similarly and not give up draft picks. Plus all 3 were still border line pro bowlers and dumping them cheap would have only opened up more holes.
At the time none of those guys were obvious dumps except Flowers/Apple, and I think we all acknowledged nobody was giving anything up for them - so the clean slate approach probably made the most sense.
Also 1 thing Gettleman did blow up (rightfully) was the OL - letting Pugh/Richburg walk, cutting Jerry/Hart, and then spending most of his FA $ there, plus a top 35 pick. There's only so much resource available to spend in 1 offseason. The results didn't turn out great but turning over an entire OL in 1 offseason is not a high percentage play - it was out of desperation.
These below comments some things up really well.
Rick in Dallas : 9:02 am : link : reply
I have this gut feeling that the front office has hit a home run in hiring Judge as the HC. I hope so for us Giants fans. I feel we are one good FA period and draft to be a viable contender again
cosmicj : 9:12 am : link : reply
I’ll guess an answer: because the organization was a mess functionally, Gettleman was feeling awful and exhausted with a yet-undiagnosed case of lymphoma, and there were a legion of decisions to make. This led to the overwhelmed leadership making a series of mistakes.
christian : 9:25 am : link : reply
The roster is younger, cheaper, has fewer bad contracts, and seemingly fewer knuckleheads. Extremely positive developments.
The staff looks more attractive too. Young, really bright head coach. Vet offensive coordinator with some big seasons under his belt. A bunch of guys with success at big college programs.
Eric on Li : 9:59 am : link : reply
OBJ was coming off surgery, needed a contract, trade value was likely all time low.
Flowers & Apple were shopped heavily with no takers.
Collins was heading into contract year coming off a pro bowl.
Vernon, Snacks, Jackrabbit were all heading into year 3 of the big contracts Reese gave them - so via trade in the offseason likely didn't hold a ton of value because other teams could just spend similarly and not give up draft picks. Plus all 3 were still border line pro bowlers and dumping them cheap would have only opened up more holes.
How many times did we say here, "you can't expect the re-build to be completed in one year, too many holes". It's been that way ad nauseam. Year after year, except for the chimera that was 2016, it was the same. And it's what makes the ineptitude, the failure to truly commence a re-build, that much more of a fail. It's why the Giants have been doormats in recent years.
I agree with this. There was 100% an emotional pull to not move on from Eli. But even with that emotional pull, rationally I don't think it was entirely wrong to stick with him until they found the next guy and I think it's fair to have not been sold on any of the alternatives in 2018. Especially at the expense of Barkley.
And that’s tough to do quickly and get right, it was at minimum a 3 yr year rebuild even if you hit on everything due to the lack of bug FA money in years 1-2 and the lack of extra picks like Dolphins just had.
Only 3 remain: Shephard, Engram and Tomlinson and Engram can probably go too and Shaphard has big injury issues. I have no issue with Tomlinson but he needs to prove he is worth a second contract.
I have never been a supporter that he was given this mandate by owners. Moreso, I think they wanted DG to do his fair analysis and come with his recommendations.
Unfortunately for all...DG told them what they wanted to hear.
I have never been a supporter that he was given this mandate by owners. Moreso, I think they wanted DG to do his fair analysis and come with his recommendations. Unfortunately for all...DG told them what they wanted to hear.
It's why I think JJ is such a good add in the chemistry: he has conviction, and imo he's given DG a shot of backbone, even if he, alone, might finally have arrived at this 'come to Jesus' moment on his own.
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In comment 14894256 Mike in Boston said:
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We had a team that had been 11-5 the year before, that the coach lost. And instead of building around the talent that was present and bringing in a good coach, they got rid of all the talent and brought in a (to be kind) mediocre coaching staff with the result that, 3 years into a rebuild we have no more talent than we did when Gettleman got here, and the most wildly optimistic fans are hoping for an 8-8 season.
All of that “talent” was fool’s gold. Look at how all of those players performed after the Giants moved on. The only one who has been decent is JPP.
Probably better skill position talent in 2017 but years of ignoring and/or missing on OL/DL picks killed this team. Can't win losing at the point of attack over and over. Also, the mutiny of 2017 and subsequent 2 yr mistake with Shurmur skews our view of the 2016/2017 seasons... The team under McAdoo had tons of talent but tons of strong personalities that needed an experienced HC - a Coughlin team, McAdoo was in over his head when the losing started... too bad, I thought that 2016 team was pretty close with some additions in 2017. Then it all imploded. I will say, you'll notice of all the guys they jettisoned from that team - almost all of them have been trouble elsewhere too. Oh well...
Look, we were 11-5 in 2016 with a first year head coach. Any one hoping for 11-5 this year, after three years and a total roster change? I didn't think so. So don't tell me we are better off. Now maybe the last two years make us more pessimistic than we should be about this team, but I don't think so.
The most important thing Gettleman had to do when he came on board was get a better coach, and he failed to do that. So we had to get rid of all those players with strong personalities. And replaced with younger players (which is good) with less personality (probably also good) but at best comparable. Maybe they got it right with Judge, I hope so.
He let Pugh & Richburg walk
He let DRC and Hart go.
He signed Solder in FA and moved Flowers to RT
He signed Kareem Martin (for Bettcher presumably) and Omamheh and Stewart.
He drafted Saquon & Hernandez
He resigned OBJ to a long term big money deal.
He opted not to draft a QBs and retained Eli as an unchallenged starter.
The preponderance of the moves centered around rebuilding an OL and arming Eli with a new weapon in Barkley and a new reliable LT in Solder and a new offensive guru in Shurmur,
Gettleman definitely gambled that Eli had another year or two and might be rejuvenated with a new OL, a returning OBJ and Barkley,
What is also possible is that Gettleman decided early that the contract situation of Eli and others was untenable for an immediate rebuild and that he didn’t think any of the 2018 QBs were franchise QBs.
The only worse path than the one we were on might have been starting a rebuild around the wrong QB drafted at 2 like Josh Rosen,
It hasn’t been perfect but I think we are right path
Yeah. He also said he picked Shurmur because of his professional demeanor. Which he hasn't admitted was among the the stupidest things any GM has ever done. So we wasted the first two years of rebuilding, and have no more talent than we did when Gettleman got here. How many guys do we have in the top quarter of the league at their position. Barkley and probably no one else even close. A team with average talent should have 5 or 6.
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Your view was exactly that of Mara and DG in the spring of 2018 and it’s safe to say that it proved to be comprehensively wrong. DG admitted the mistake publicly.
Yeah. He also said he picked Shurmur because of his professional demeanor. Which he hasn't admitted was among the the stupidest things any GM has ever done. So we wasted the first two years of rebuilding, and have no more talent than we did when Gettleman got here. How many guys do we have in the top quarter of the league at their position. Barkley and probably no one else even close except Bradberry. A team with average talent should have 5 or 6.
Among the guys Gettleman inherited you might have found OBJ, Snacks, JPP, Jackrabbit, maybe Collins.
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In comment 14894356 WillVAB said:
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In comment 14894256 Mike in Boston said:
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We had a team that had been 11-5 the year before, that the coach lost. And instead of building around the talent that was present and bringing in a good coach, they got rid of all the talent and brought in a (to be kind) mediocre coaching staff with the result that, 3 years into a rebuild we have no more talent than we did when Gettleman got here, and the most wildly optimistic fans are hoping for an 8-8 season.
All of that “talent” was fool’s gold. Look at how all of those players performed after the Giants moved on. The only one who has been decent is JPP.
Probably better skill position talent in 2017 but years of ignoring and/or missing on OL/DL picks killed this team. Can't win losing at the point of attack over and over. Also, the mutiny of 2017 and subsequent 2 yr mistake with Shurmur skews our view of the 2016/2017 seasons... The team under McAdoo had tons of talent but tons of strong personalities that needed an experienced HC - a Coughlin team, McAdoo was in over his head when the losing started... too bad, I thought that 2016 team was pretty close with some additions in 2017. Then it all imploded. I will say, you'll notice of all the guys they jettisoned from that team - almost all of them have been trouble elsewhere too. Oh well...
Look, we were 11-5 in 2016 with a first year head coach. Any one hoping for 11-5 this year, after three years and a total roster change? I didn't think so. So don't tell me we are better off. Now maybe the last two years make us more pessimistic than we should be about this team, but I don't think so.
The most important thing Gettleman had to do when he came on board was get a better coach, and he failed to do that. So we had to get rid of all those players with strong personalities. And replaced with younger players (which is good) with less personality (probably also good) but at best comparable. Maybe they got it right with Judge, I hope so.
The Giants went 11-5 because they dropped a 100+ mil on the D and had an easy schedule and new HC with a new system.
The league adjusted. The Giants O fell off the rails by the end of the year and couldn’t even get 20 pts most games. The signs were already there.
In year 2, McAdoos lack of control allowed the personalities to get comfortable and take over. The schedule was tougher, the league adjusted, the coach had trouble controlling his team, the ship had hit an iceberg,
I’m not really sure what your point is. This team mostly doubled down on 2018 by adding Barkley and Solder and resigning OBJ and keeping Eli, Vernon, Snacks and Jenkins were all still here,
What are you advocating for? Keeping Ben McAdoo?
The only major changes really made to the “talent” you say they had was JPP.
So I have no idea of your real point or alternative,
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Although the blunt answer is DG missed it. He didn’t think he had to blow it up. ....
I have never been a supporter that he was given this mandate by owners. Moreso, I think they wanted DG to do his fair analysis and come with his recommendations. Unfortunately for all...DG told them what they wanted to hear.
Could be. But how do you dis-entangle, how does one separate the two? They arrive at the same conclusion. I'm not sure DG had the moxie, the conviction, to butt heads with ownership.
It's why I think JJ is such a good add in the chemistry: he has conviction, and imo he's given DG a shot of backbone, even if he, alone, might finally have arrived at this 'come to Jesus' moment on his own.
If it was or is entangled then it doesn’t work. The Giants could still have success but imagine it would be more of a flash versus reasonably sustainable.
Maybe DG did just go along but then that would have been a change in his stripes from Carolina.
How in the world did DG incorrectly assess that team and not just start blowing it up from the beginning?
I know I put a question mark but it’s more a rhetorical.
I think part of it is he knew he couldn’t fix it all in a season or two, but you can’t really come out and say ok everyone, this team is garbage and we won’t be good again for four or five years. Even if we all know it as fans, a GM will still try to make things look better than they are because they have to draw fans to the stadium. And you never know, maybe the team gets lucky and makes some kind of a run.
I think he determined that this was 3-5 year rebuild and you need a QB for a rebuild
I think DG evaluates the 2018 class and determined he did not see a franchise QB, a determination that may prove correct. That made sticking with Eli inevitable and Linley due to cap hit,
And he saw a generational talent in Barkley on the board
I think DG legitimately saw the ability to begin to dismantle (Pugh, Richburg, JPP, Hart all gone) and give Eli a shot just in case with OBJ and Saquon and a new OL while not killing his flexibility to rebuild should it flop. And I think that’s why he abandoned ship so fast when he saw reality and moved on from Snacks and Apple during the season and then traded off Odell and Vernon post season and the reversal on Collins.
What if he believed Apple/Flowers sucked, and Snacks/Vernon/Jackrabbit were overpaid, but couldn't get anything for them?
What if he knew signing OBJ was a risk, but had no attractive alternative until he showed he was healthy on field?
What if he they weren't in love with Darnold, Rosen, or Allen?
I don't think he was as sold on the roster he inherited competing as people like to portray because he clearly hedged to keep all his future options on the table. Within weeks of the 2018 season Flowers was cut, Apple/Snacks traded, and his first moves of 2019 offseason were letting Collins walk and trading OBJ/Vernon.
The move everyone points to is cutting Eli for the sake of cutting Eli to save money and "accelerate the rebuild". Well drafting the wrong QB would have decelerated any rebuild before it started - and somebody had to play QB until they found a QB they liked in the draft.
Every team that drafted QB in 2018 signed or traded for a vet QB at considerable cost
Jets signed Bridgewater for up to 15 mill & McCown for 10 mil
Bills signed McCarron for 2 yrs 9 mil
Browns traded a 3rd for Tyrod Taylor and his 16 mil deal
Cards signed Bradford for 2 yrs up to 20 mil per
The Giants werent going into the 2018 season with Davis Webb and Alex Tanney at QB and Acquiring them costs
We have kept Eli and drafted his successor and we had the passing of 5he torch and a true farewell for Eli. He went on his terms and the team is better off than they were at end of 2017 with some hope.
Had the Giants cut Manning after the fan rebellion AND not selected a successor with the 2018 2 pick, I can’t imagine the reaction to that. Lets not even get into the draft pick ramifications for 2019 for Jones,
Had they selected a QB over Barkley in 2018, which might have been Sam Darnold or Josh Rosen or Josh Allen, Rosen looks like a bust, Allen is winning but looks like he being carried by a solid team and has not overwhelmed, Darnold has flashes but has been unnervingly inconsistent. I’m not sure we would have been that thrilled with the QB spot, I’ll take Jones right now over all 3 options with Saquon.
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In comment 14894413 GiantsRage2007 said:
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In comment 14894356 WillVAB said:
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In comment 14894256 Mike in Boston said:
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We had a team that had been 11-5 the year before, that the coach lost. And instead of building around the talent that was present and bringing in a good coach, they got rid of all the talent and brought in a (to be kind) mediocre coaching staff with the result that, 3 years into a rebuild we have no more talent than we did when Gettleman got here, and the most wildly optimistic fans are hoping for an 8-8 season.
All of that “talent” was fool’s gold. Look at how all of those players performed after the Giants moved on. The only one who has been decent is JPP.
Probably better skill position talent in 2017 but years of ignoring and/or missing on OL/DL picks killed this team. Can't win losing at the point of attack over and over. Also, the mutiny of 2017 and subsequent 2 yr mistake with Shurmur skews our view of the 2016/2017 seasons... The team under McAdoo had tons of talent but tons of strong personalities that needed an experienced HC - a Coughlin team, McAdoo was in over his head when the losing started... too bad, I thought that 2016 team was pretty close with some additions in 2017. Then it all imploded. I will say, you'll notice of all the guys they jettisoned from that team - almost all of them have been trouble elsewhere too. Oh well...
Look, we were 11-5 in 2016 with a first year head coach. Any one hoping for 11-5 this year, after three years and a total roster change? I didn't think so. So don't tell me we are better off. Now maybe the last two years make us more pessimistic than we should be about this team, but I don't think so.
The most important thing Gettleman had to do when he came on board was get a better coach, and he failed to do that. So we had to get rid of all those players with strong personalities. And replaced with younger players (which is good) with less personality (probably also good) but at best comparable. Maybe they got it right with Judge, I hope so.
The Giants went 11-5 because they dropped a 100+ mil on the D and had an easy schedule and new HC with a new system.
The league adjusted. The Giants O fell off the rails by the end of the year and couldn’t even get 20 pts most games. The signs were already there.
In year 2, McAdoos lack of control allowed the personalities to get comfortable and take over. The schedule was tougher, the league adjusted, the coach had trouble controlling his team, the ship had hit an iceberg,
I’m not really sure what your point is. This team mostly doubled down on 2018 by adding Barkley and Solder and resigning OBJ and keeping Eli, Vernon, Snacks and Jenkins were all still here,
What are you advocating for? Keeping Ben McAdoo?
The only major changes really made to the “talent” you say they had was JPP.
So I have no idea of your real point or alternative,
Exactly. DG made a good faith effort to make it work with all of that “talent” in ‘18 and the team started off 1-7 or something along those lines. At that point he blew it up and traded what he could.
He walked into a bad situation. Soft HC market. Tricky cap situation with aging, overpaid, under producing players. No depth. No OL.
Since then he’s churned the roster and fixed the cap. Time will tell if the personnel decisions turn into wins.
Again, are you advocating for keeping Ben McAdoo?
3-4 of the way into the 2018 season the real rebuild truly began. Maybe it was a few months too late maybe not, but there’s little doubt DG did what was needed these last 2 years or so. And when you really boil down all the moves and nitpick the negatives, there’s very little to be concerned about going forward, as far as team building and roster construction / flexibility is concerned. Now we just need to grow and win.
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Although the blunt answer is DG missed it. He didn’t think he had to blow it up.
What if he believed Apple/Flowers sucked, and Snacks/Vernon/Jackrabbit were overpaid, but couldn't get anything for them?
What if he knew signing OBJ was a risk, but had no attractive alternative until he showed he was healthy on field?
What if he they weren't in love with Darnold, Rosen, or Allen?
I don't think he was as sold on the roster he inherited competing as people like to portray because he clearly hedged to keep all his future options on the table. Within weeks of the 2018 season Flowers was cut, Apple/Snacks traded, and his first moves of 2019 offseason were letting Collins walk and trading OBJ/Vernon.
The move everyone points to is cutting Eli for the sake of cutting Eli to save money and "accelerate the rebuild". Well drafting the wrong QB would have decelerated any rebuild before it started - and somebody had to play QB until they found a QB they liked in the draft.
Eric I just can’t get there on your points albeit fair views. If DG wasn’t sold on the roster then you go into rebuild mode and do everything you can to shed salaries, accumulate picks via trades and trade downs, get younger, try out other roster players, etc. He did none of this, in fact the opposite. And you certainly don’t go running back #2 if you don’t like your roster, even in general.
Most of his misses revolve around not making a better decision with Eli. He felt he could win still, and bought him pieces to do it. But 2011 was a long time ago, and Eli couldn’t save this flawed roster anymore,
I would have been fine not going QB in 2018 if DG couldn’t get there with his evaluations. So Eli stays on the payroll another year...not ideal but whatever. But certainly need to convert that pick into more than just a good running back as it truly was the only good asset they had to work with other than OBJ.
Again, in my view he missed it. And I cannot get behind a view that he didn’t like his roster but was hamstrung from changing it and therefore decided to just hang with Eli, pay Solder a fortune and draft a running back #2 overall. Those themes don’t work together.
In my view mcadoo was even worse than we even know. The moment we hired this guy as HC the inevitable long dark path of the wilderness took hold. There was no way out until the giants went through it and then conducted the purge. And here we are...
Saquon opened up the 2019 season with 2 straight 100+ yd games on almost 8 yds per carry
Then he got hurt a few carries into game 3.
When he finally got healthy the last 3 games he had over 400 yds and 5 TD in last 3 games. He had a 90 receiving game to boot, those numbers in 3 games are nuts,
I think people have lost kinda touch with Saquon and how much he dominates. The 5 games he was healthy he was phenomenal.
He got hurt, it happens. He tried to play through it, this is not a long term injury or a career one.
Lets see what 2020 has in store for Saquon Barkley before passing a judgement on the pick.
Eric I just can’t get there on your points albeit fair views. If DG wasn’t sold on the roster then you go into rebuild mode and do everything you can to shed salaries, accumulate picks via trades and trade downs, get younger, try out other roster players, etc. He did none of this, in fact the opposite. And you certainly don’t go running back #2 if you don’t like your roster, even in general.
You're forgetting he also traded JPP for a 3rd. I'm not arguing he was in full rebuild mode, my point is that I don't think he was entirely in go for it mode either. He was starting a roster transition. He showed both that he was willing to deal overpaid vets when he got good value back but also willing to give the talent that was here a chance to show they were more like their '16 performances than '17. And I would argue it was less of a choice and more just a reality because nobody was likely willing to give up much of anything up for them.
If Gettleman came in and did a full rebuild right away, what is different today? As far as I can tell we'd possibly have some more cap room but also possibly have gotten a little bit less in trades.
So, is this year 1 of the current rebuild or something like year 5 of a weird rebuild?
On top of that, I think if we had a draft like this one a few years ago, we very well may have been witnessing a wonderful golden year period for Eli with some playoffs involved. Instead, he toiled behind one of the worst OLs I've seen in 35 years of watching football for about 3 or 4 seasons, to go along with one of the historically worst defenses and a terrible coaching staff top to bottom.
Today, I am optimistic in the current regime because they seem interested in prioritizing actually coaching up players and positions and are not married to a bad scheme regardless of personnel. At least on paper, there will also be some accountability. I believe with this draft and the current staff, we should at least return to respectability and competitive, good for 7-8 wins. IF we build on that, I axpect to compete in 2021.
Retool #2 2013-2015 was the first bottoming out started on the field with the 0-6 start to the 2013 year. Reaching for Pugh was the first step towards failing to finally rebuild the OL and after this season they then compounded the mistake by signing Schwartz/drafting Richburg in 14, and then drafting Flowers in 15. Other bad moves along the way were letting Joseph walk in FA and signing Beason to a big deal. This was an extremely poor 3 year period of roster management (and injury luck - JPP fireworks, Phillips knee, Wilson neck, Beatty pec, Cruz knee) and the poor performance on the field led to Coughlin getting the axe. Without OBJ this would have been the end of Reese too. Unsuccessful retool #1.
2016-2017 this is where things got real bad with a double dip of failed retools and what appeared to be a civil war over Eli. McAdoo was a terrible coach, Reese continued to make bad picks like Apple and stick with his earlier bad picks like Flowers/Hart, and spent like crazy for another retool of the D (which did kind of work). Blind squirrel found a nut in 2016 but 2017 became a rock bottom of epic proportions. Very unsuccessful retool #2.
That brings us to 2018-2020, which I would call transitional rebuild. Could they have dynamited the roster in a more profound way? Yes. But I'm not sure what tangible benefit it would have brought bc they weren't going to rebuild it in 1 year any way. They purged most of thoe players within 12 months and got good trade value when they did so. Hiring Shurmur was clearly a move intended to help bring in a new QB since that was his specialty. Though he perhaps was a good mentor for Jones, as HC he was a disaster. I see a noticeable improvement in the roster building in this period compared to the previous regime (like the OP) but if we've learned anything it's that getting the coach right is equally if not even more important.
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Eric I just can’t get there on your points albeit fair views. If DG wasn’t sold on the roster then you go into rebuild mode and do everything you can to shed salaries, accumulate picks via trades and trade downs, get younger, try out other roster players, etc. He did none of this, in fact the opposite. And you certainly don’t go running back #2 if you don’t like your roster, even in general.
You're forgetting he also traded JPP for a 3rd. I'm not arguing he was in full rebuild mode, my point is that I don't think he was entirely in go for it mode either. He was starting a roster transition. He showed both that he was willing to deal overpaid vets when he got good value back but also willing to give the talent that was here a chance to show they were more like their '16 performances than '17. And I would argue it was less of a choice and more just a reality because nobody was likely willing to give up much of anything up for them.
If Gettleman came in and did a full rebuild right away, what is different today? As far as I can tell we'd possibly have some more cap room but also possibly have gotten a little bit less in trades.
I think the structure around DJ would have been further along. I admit I don’t know how much but clearly further. We are all just sitting here in year 3 and still have zero idea whether this is working.
I'm just tired of watching terrible, losing football.
hired QB guru Shurmur
pumped a ton of resource into OL (Solder + Hernandez + Zeitler)
acquired QB friendly weapons like Barkley/Golden Tate
and even when they kept Eli around as a safety net/mentor and traded OBJ
All of those things helped Daniel Jones before he was even drafted. With hindsight there are always going to be some misses that could have been avoided (especially hiring Shurmur) but as we look at the roster today there's probably as good of a structure around Jones as we could have hoped for turning over 8 of the 10 other players on the offense.
Even this draft, DG had to implement a strategy for the Oline. It had to be done because of both poor and lack of investment earlier. And we still don’t have a reliable Center and had to bypass a strong WR pool because of these desperate needs.
Structure could have been planned out much better.
Even this draft, DG had to implement a strategy for the Oline. It had to be done because of both poor and lack of investment earlier. And we still don’t have a reliable Center and had to bypass a strong WR pool because of these desperate needs.
Structure could have been planned out much better.
I'd be interested to hear you explain how. It's pretty easy to look back at the domain of who was available over the last 2 years. What would have been better in your eyes?
Forget about the bottom of the roster acquisitions and decisions. He got Solder, Martin, Omameh, and Ogletree wrong. The four biggest acquisitions all fell flat.
Imagine if Bradberry, Martinez, Frackrell, and Williams all bomb. Would that be fine to excuse away?
And the point isn't "they didn't hamstring the team going forward."
The point is when you bring in a pro personnel expert, you need him to get these moves right.
Imagine if the Giants had a quality vet LT, inside linebacker, outside linebacker and got right guard squared away earlier.
How much better would this team be?
Forget about the bottom of the roster acquisitions and decisions. He got Solder, Martin, Omameh, and Ogletree wrong. The four biggest acquisitions all fell flat.
Imagine if Bradberry, Martinez, Frackrell, and Williams all bomb. Would that be fine to excuse away?
And the point isn't "they didn't hamstring the team going forward."
The point is when you bring in a pro personnel expert, you need him to get these moves right.
Imagine if the Giants had a quality vet LT, inside linebacker, outside linebacker and got right guard squared away earlier.
How much better would this team be?
I don't think anyone would dispute the results of the '18 FA were poor. The players he added didn't produce. I do think they invested in the right positions though.
The Giant in 2018 with the exception of Solder where bargain basement hunting, we signed Martin due to his familiarity with Bettcher and his system for 3 yr 21 mil, 7 mil that’s about 40th or so in NFL. We signed Omamah for 3 yr 15 mil, 5 mil per that’s in the 80-90th range of NFL. Ogletree was acquired with a 7th rounder for a 4th and 6th pick.
The Giants only had 30 mil to spend and had 12 roster spaces to fill plus 3 starting OL slots, we were very limited in choice.
These were not bi game hunting acquisitions. Solder was devastating though.
Unfortunately with Solder we went “shopping hungry” as Gettleman says. We were turned by Norwell and the next best OL was our own Justin Pugh. We had 3 vacancies on OL to fill
This year we signed James Bradberry to the 4th highest paid CB contract. Martinez is the 23rd highest paid LB. in both situations there were some choices and we could have went after other positions like RT and opted to draft a CB or LB at 4.
Williams we deliberately traded for early and a 3rd rounder to get the rights to tag him for FA and we paid him a tag dollar at 16 mil which is top 5 at DT and we know he would dispute it for DE tag.
Fackrell is bargain hunting on a 1 yr 4.5 mil deal.
This year would be devastating because we had 80+ mil in FA to spend and a lot of choices so to botch it would be terrible.
Pulling up OTs versus better available players because of desperation, mostly caused be him not getting the OL fixed.
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It's entertaining the extent some will go to avoid accepting a simple concept Gettleman admits -- he miscalculated 2018.
Forget about the bottom of the roster acquisitions and decisions. He got Solder, Martin, Omameh, and Ogletree wrong. The four biggest acquisitions all fell flat.
Imagine if Bradberry, Martinez, Frackrell, and Williams all bomb. Would that be fine to excuse away?
And the point isn't "they didn't hamstring the team going forward."
The point is when you bring in a pro personnel expert, you need him to get these moves right.
Imagine if the Giants had a quality vet LT, inside linebacker, outside linebacker and got right guard squared away earlier.
How much better would this team be?
I don't think anyone would dispute the results of the '18 FA were poor. The players he added didn't produce. I do think they invested in the right positions though.
I would disagree when it came to the career life cycle those free agents he signed were on. They weren’t building block free agents...they were supplements. And his lack of positional awareness in 2018 and some of 2019 has hurt this team. Hopefully it didn’t again in 2020.
I would disagree when it came to the career life cycle those free agents he signed were on. They weren’t building block free agents...they were supplements. And his lack of positional awareness in 2018 and some of 2019 has hurt this team. Hopefully it didn’t again in 2020.
what "building block" player has gotten to FA in the last 3 offseasons?
what positions have they spent the most $ on via FA/trades?
The point is the 4 vets signed to be multi-year starters, cost more and at a higher percentage of the cap, and all sucked. The most expensive vets you sign should be good players.
At least Frackrell and Williams are rentals, even if an outcome where Williams stays one year is a let down.
Alec Ogletree - 19.9 (Terminated)
Patrick Omameh - 10.05 (Terminated)
Kareem Martin - 11.1 (Terminated)
Nate Solder - 35 (To Date)
76.05
Bradbery- 29.8M (Minimum guaranteed)
Martinez - 19M
Frackrell - 3.5
Williams - 16.2
68.5
The point is the 4 vets signed to be multi-year starters, cost more and at a higher percentage of the cap, and all sucked. The most expensive vets you sign should be good players.
At least Frackrell and Williams are rentals, even if an outcome where Williams stays one year is a let down.
Alec Ogletree - 19.9 (Terminated)
Patrick Omameh - 10.05 (Terminated)
Kareem Martin - 11.1 (Terminated)
Nate Solder - 35 (To Date)
76.05
Bradbery- 29.8M (Minimum guaranteed)
Martinez - 19M
Frackrell - 3.5
Williams - 16.2
68.5
Those numbers are a bit misleading but I understand your point. The 2018 FA hurt and Im not saying it didnt
My point has been that the State if the 2017 roster left it so that mistakes like these we’re likely
We were cap strapped with tons of vacancies and overwhelming needs. We needed to find 3 OL starters in the 2018 offseason had very little money to accomplish this .
When you need to overturn like 45/48 of 53 roster spots in just 2 years you are going to have some serious missteps.
It is a shame that DG missed on virtually all of our 2018 & 2019 FA signings especially Solder. That has definitely set this rebuild back.
No mgt team is capable of being right like that.
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Because they hired an incompetent head coach.
Again, are you advocating for keeping Ben McAdoo?
If you are only counted coaches hired that off-season, what about Vrabel. For that matter if Judge is a better answer, we could have hired him two years ago as well as now. The idea that the only choices available were MacAdoo or Shurmur is nonsense. There are always any number of coaches available, and others might have been lure from the college ranks with the right offer.
The staff looks more attractive too. Young, really bright head coach. Vet offensive coordinator with some big seasons under his belt. A bunch of guys with success at big college programs.
Gettleman has done a much better job on the locker room and sideline with this second chance.
I respect it. He really stumbled in 2018, but has recovered nicely.
Did you just say something nice here? 😎
Spot on post, imo
2. Is Jones the right guy to replace Eli - QB play has been on the decline for 3-4 years.
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In comment 14894840 Mike in Boston said:
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Because they hired an incompetent head coach.
Again, are you advocating for keeping Ben McAdoo?
If you are only counted coaches hired that off-season, what about Vrabel. For that matter if Judge is a better answer, we could have hired him two years ago as well as now. The idea that the only choices available were MacAdoo or Shurmur is nonsense. There are always any number of coaches available, and others might have been lure from the college ranks with the right offer.
There is the realm of what is realistic. For example, I’m sure there will be some All-Pro or maybe even a future HoFer drafted well after us like Ed Reed and Ray Lewis, But it’s not fair to say we “should” have taken them at 4 and known.
The major coaching candidates were Josh McDaniels, Matt Patricia, Steve Wilks and Pat Shurmur and I believe all of them were offered interviews with every single team that was interviewing that year. Those were the real choices. The Giants kind of gave interviews Steve Spagnuolo and Eric sTudesville out of courtesy,
I think it’s fair to say that those were the candidates. If you have a gripe it should be out of the guys who were realistic to hire.
Mike Vrabel and Frank Reich got jobs after this period and had very few interviews. The Tennessee job opened late with an unexpected firing and the Colts job reopened after McDaniels turned it down. I believe Reich was only interviewed by the Colts. Vrabel also interviewed with the Lions due to the NE Gm connection
As for Judge he wasn’t interviewed by anyone until 2 years later and that was the Giants and he was seemingly. Headed to the college ranks,
There was no obvious choice the Giants passed on, and it’s likley that Tennessee, had they not made the playoffs, may have even went for one of the McDaniels-Patricia-Shurmur-Wilks first for the job over Vrabel.
Vrabel is 50-50 hindsight, we should have taken the guy that we know panned out even though he was on no-ones radar then. You probably can’t find a single BBIer who was arguing at seasons end - you know what Mike Vrabel is the guy, hire him!
So it’s really an unfair criticism.
We are three years into a rebuild and no one has hopes of winning 6 games, much less making the playoffs. You can't gey more incompetent that that as a GM.
How long was the Niners rebuild? And what were John Lynch's results the first two seasons?
Did the Jaguars or Raiders ever rebuilld or just have blips of a decent season and then go back to poor/mediocre?
How long was the Rams rebuild?
We see very few rebuilds these days. We see a franchise QB who can help turn a team around quickly or we see long stretches of mediocrity like with the Bills and Lions where the rebuild is perpetual with hope intermittently sprinkled in.
What's the proper rebuild?
In the post 2004 Bill Polian rule change era (what really should be considered the demarcation of this era of football) — I believe only one team has won a Super Bowl with a sub .500 record the previous year, the Eagles.
Champions are by and large ascending or in their window. The Giants need to get to that.
My take is a GM should be able to get a team in that window after three full off seasons. Three drafts, three UFA seasons, three shots at prepping the roster.
If the Giants aren’t at or close to .500 this year, it’s a big concern.
But that is the result of missing it with Eli and the roster as a whole coming out of the box. We hope.
He drafted well in 2019 and while yes it is way to early to tell for 2020 I do believe LT Thomas and FS McKinney were solid picks that will start as rookies and likely play well given their pedigrees and experience.
I am still holding out hope that an upgraded OC is available via cuts or perhaps some crazy trade (#6 plus a player or something?).
I think we are in great shape for a run in 2021 and beyond. The key is Jones development; finding a pass rush from the scheme by utilizing player strengths and matching up & timing blitzes well; and, health.