Some of the guys on Offense were in decline. Also think leads were protected a good bit more in 2016 with conservative offensive play and relying on the Defense to hang on. Not sure they played that way in 2015.
Thoughts?
I think I read a stat somewhere that the 2015 Giants....
McAdoo and not close.
won 11 games, made the playoffs, and won many of those games with game management, which is very much related to the coach (and something complained about in the years prior).
he also made an effort to move the Giants forward observing it needed changes (cough cough) -- a few years before the powers that be... imagine this being 2yrs forward of full rebuild right now.
RE: I think I read a stat somewhere that the 2015 Giants....
lost 7 games in which they were either tied or had taken the lead with under three minutes to go in the game.
They finished 6-10. If the defense could have held a lead in just half of those games, there might have been a different outcome.
defense was awful, but TC's game/clock management was an issue as well.
Well, it's a lot harder to manage a game when you know your defense can't ever get a stop. It changes the way you have to call the game. And they could NEVER get a stop. They were god awful.
Giants score 3 4th quarter TD's to tie the game against undefeated Superbowl bound Carolina Panthers, but leave 51 seconds on the clock, in which Cam Newton calmly drives them down the field with zero resistance to kick a chip shot walk off FG. Lots of games like that in 2015.
McAdoo and not close.
won 11 games, made the playoffs, and won many of those games with game management, which is very much related to the coach (and something complained about in the years prior).
he also made an effort to move the Giants forward observing it needed changes (cough cough) -- a few years before the powers that be... imagine this being 2yrs forward of full rebuild right now.
I think you're confusing an opinion with a fact. This is a simple opinion of what each thinks in reference to which coach may have been a better coach. Your response would be better suited for a question where a fact would be able to satisfy the question.
The most out of touch and ridiculous take on here is this crap that coughlin’s time or clock mgmt was so bad in 2015. Week 1 at Dallas maybe but Eli was just as culpable as the HC if not worse.
Please find me a hc that gets more out out if that fucking trash heap of a NYG team in 2015. Please. The best player on defense was rookie Landon Collins or DRC. That D was monumentally terrible. The O had no business scoring 427 pts that season, yet they did. Wonder why.
And I want to say one more thing about that Carolina game in 2015....
That's the infamous OBJ vs. Norman game as we all know. Whatever you want to say about it, that was a fiery fucking game. For us to come back, down 21, in the fourth quarter.... After that fucking performance between Norman and Odell, especially after Odell caught the game tying TD OVER Norman, after all that bullshit, and stomped over him in the endzone.... You'd think that would inspire some fucking fight in the defense.
Instead, we got the same dink, dink, dunk, FG that we had seen all season. No fire. After all that emotion. No fight, no fire, they just rolled over and got fucked. Like a bitch.
lost 7 games in which they were either tied or had taken the lead with under three minutes to go in the game.
They finished 6-10. If the defense could have held a lead in just half of those games, there might have been a different outcome.
defense was awful, but TC's game/clock management was an issue as well.
Well, it's a lot harder to manage a game when you know your defense can't ever get a stop. It changes the way you have to call the game. And they could NEVER get a stop. They were god awful.
Giants score 3 4th quarter TD's to tie the game against undefeated Superbowl bound Carolina Panthers, but leave 51 seconds on the clock, in which Cam Newton calmly drives them down the field with zero resistance to kick a chip shot walk off FG. Lots of games like that in 2015.
to be fair, TC had clock/game management issues prior to that season. But, yeah, on a team with a terrible defense, those shortcomings were magnified.
Whether coincidence or not, the Giants offense had a spark under McAdoo in '14 and '15. The offensive line certainly wasn't good, but it wasn't the shambles it turned into the next 4 years. Manning was slowing down a touch, but he wasn't shot, and the addition of Beckham was like a shot of adrenaline.
The defense was just completely dreadful and by '15 and couldn't stop anyone. That team started a completely finished Brandon Merryweather at safety. That was a deeply bad defense.
I think McAdoo's performance as both the offensive minded HC AND....
the offensive coordinator, and playcaller of the 2016 and 2017 team (until they told him to hand it off to somebody else) pretty much showed that any "spark" attributed to McAdoo was in fact coincidence, considering they fell of a cliff after TC left.
RE: Shurmur would have won a lot of games in 2016 too
They won close games
Many dictated by game management
That’s not debatable
The defense was huge of course- but in the end it was close games that were won- not lost like in prior years - the coaching strategy helped -
They won close games
Many dictated by game management
That’s not debatable
The defense was huge of course- but in the end it was close games that were won- not lost like in prior years - the coaching strategy helped -
Just because mcadoo didn’t lose those games doesn’t mean he was ahead of the curve in terms of game or clock mgmt. Give me a break. Conversely, just because the giants lost so many close games in 2015 doesn’t mean coughlin was to blame.
The giants in 2015 lost because that terrible defense on paper, played terribly. The giants won in 2016 because the good defense on paper, played very very well. And Eli and Beckham hit some HRs when needed. If Eli and Beckham don’t hit those HRs and mcadoo doesn’t ruin a ready made team week after week we’re looking at a 1970s type team.
To one thing - place all the blame for the other - carry the one ... you get to your answer.. selective crediting lol.
Or you can watch the games - see the team manage the clock better and run a more conservative offense designed to the teams strengths - and see the team win games based on the defense, the coach, and obj making huge plays .
To one thing - place all the blame for the other - carry the one ... you get to your answer.. selective crediting lol.
Or you can watch the games - see the team manage the clock better and run a more conservative offense designed to the teams strengths - and see the team win games based on the defense, the coach, and obj making huge plays .
The question is, do you question what you believe to see? Just because you think you see something doesn't mean it was present. Your initial post basically said anyone not seeing it your way was wrong, which is odd considering the question is for an opinion.
To one thing - place all the blame for the other - carry the one ... you get to your answer.. selective crediting lol.
Or you can watch the games - see the team manage the clock better and run a more conservative offense designed to the teams strengths - and see the team win games based on the defense, the coach, and obj making huge plays .
The question is, do you question what you believe to see? Just because you think you see something doesn't mean it was present. Your initial post basically said anyone not seeing it your way was wrong, which is odd considering the question is for an opinion.
According to some Mcadoo was an offensive coordinator who didn’t deserve credit for the offense putting up points- and when he became head coach he takes blame for the offense dropping off but gets no credit for wins or game management- and then gets blame for all losses when they stink for a variety of issues, himself included
Awesome stuff
That you decided to not answer my question. That probably tells me what I need to know.
no i dont question what i see. we are comparing a coach that has only lost and not shown any game management ability... and a coach that led the last relevant Giants team to close win after close win-- of which nobody wants to credit because he was the first to see that the team needed a massive overhaul.
do you want to ask me another question within a question about my statements? or have an opinion on the topic or sport?
RE: Who was the offensive play caller for the 2016 Giants?
the same guy that called them in 2014 and 2015 as the OC when they lost a sh$t ton of games with generally empty stat offense, a sh$t defense, and bad game management.
RE: RE: Who was the offensive play caller for the 2016 Giants?
the same guy that called them in 2014 and 2015 as the OC when they lost a sh$t ton of games with generally empty stat offense, a sh$t defense, and bad game management.
The 2016 line didn't make the leap forward many thought it would. Flowers was lauded for toughing it out in 15, but he made no strides the next year. Pugh was banged up a bunch.
The Giants couldn't run the ball at all. It was clear Cruz was shot. They had no tight end. And most of all Manning truly started to look old. The only offense was Beckham.
It was a sneak peak to what was coming the next 2 years.
it wasn't drop off the cliff from 6th to 26th bad.
It was coaching. Coughlin got a lot more out of those shit rosters than either McAdoo or Shurmur ever did. 2013 was one of the worst rosters I've ever seen, and he got that team to 6 wins, even to 4-5 at one point after an 0-6 start.
It was ALWAYS a roster problem. Always. That's what is crystal clear to me, now, in hindsight.
Who said anyone taught anyone anything ?
Wtf are you arguing here? Nobody ever debated coughlin having an impact on the offense that Ben brought in- of course he did he was the head coach and is an offensive mind
That doesn’t take away that he brought in a different system with a different drop back for a vet qb and called the plays and was a netT positive for offensive production after the debacle of 2013
that were added to the existing system, some short range passing to compensate for the inadequate line protection and the movement away from 5-7 step drops.
The offense was very much still the Tom Coughlin offense that was predicated on throwing the ball deep.
When he did finally implement his "different system", the offense went off a cliff.
I think anybody that defends McAdoo to ANY degree....
during that season, then no wonder they did well. because you have been VERY hopeful, during the ongoing disaster that you were 3yrs late to see unfolding.
its just very strange that you have made a thread about 2 coaches... now about defending a different coach.
i just want it to be clear again-- you have now made McAdoo take zero credit for the 2016 defense and game management and 11 wins--- take all blame for the 2016 offense (which was conservative by design). and take zero credit for 2014 and 2015 offenses. and likely he is responsible for the debacle of 2017 all by himself.
Maybe it’s just because Shurmur was here more recently and I have blocked out some of the bad McAdoo days but I think if I had to choose I’d take McAdoo back. Shurmur was better as the face of the organization for sure but he was hopelessly lost and overmatched as a coach. I just never felt like he had any handle on the game.
Obviously the league in general thinks more of Shurmur, he got another OC job pretty easily. I don’t think either ever should or will lead a team again. McAdoo somehow managed to go 11-5 one season, Shurmur only won 9 games in two years.
Hope to god that Judge is another Harbaugh or Tomlin type and is here for 20 years. The Giants need a real leader.
Eli, Jennings and Vareen went downhill. Add in a OL that was getting beat more than it’s fair share and that’s how the offensive rankings dropped precipitously.
Coaching change...yeah it probably didn’t help but it didn’t cause it.
surprised when 2016 is talked about that it is rarely pointed out that the Giants were top 5 in health that year. I believe they were #3. It has been the only time since 2000 that they were even in the Top 10.
2014 and 2015 the Giants were in the bottom 5 of the league. In 2017 they were in the Bottom 5 and in 2018, they were in the Bottom 10.
The outlier in there is 2016. And I don't know what Coughlin would have done, but he and Little Bill are the only coaches to win Super Bowls in the past 20 years with teams in the bottom 10 in health. I'd have to check, but they might be the only teams to win titles in the bottom half.
That question is like comparing two visits to the toilet and which one was bigger.They both were crap!!
Some of the guys on Offense were in decline. Also think leads were protected a good bit more in 2016 with conservative offensive play and relying on the Defense to hang on. Not sure they played that way in 2015.
Thoughts?
They finished 6-10. If the defense could have held a lead in just half of those games, there might have been a different outcome.
From what I recall, there were a lot of walkoff losses in 2015. But it's been a while.
Those completely flipped in 2016.
Those completely flipped in 2016.
Yes, in 2016 run defense was great and pass defense held up enough and got a lot of late turnovers/stops. 2015 pass defense was a joke.
But imv, the main reason the offense got worse was declining Eli, Jennings, injured Vareen and OL was playing worse.
McAdoo and not close.
won 11 games, made the playoffs, and won many of those games with game management, which is very much related to the coach (and something complained about in the years prior).
he also made an effort to move the Giants forward observing it needed changes (cough cough) -- a few years before the powers that be... imagine this being 2yrs forward of full rebuild right now.
They finished 6-10. If the defense could have held a lead in just half of those games, there might have been a different outcome.
defense was awful, but TC's game/clock management was an issue as well.
Quote:
lost 7 games in which they were either tied or had taken the lead with under three minutes to go in the game.
They finished 6-10. If the defense could have held a lead in just half of those games, there might have been a different outcome.
defense was awful, but TC's game/clock management was an issue as well.
Well, it's a lot harder to manage a game when you know your defense can't ever get a stop. It changes the way you have to call the game. And they could NEVER get a stop. They were god awful.
Giants score 3 4th quarter TD's to tie the game against undefeated Superbowl bound Carolina Panthers, but leave 51 seconds on the clock, in which Cam Newton calmly drives them down the field with zero resistance to kick a chip shot walk off FG. Lots of games like that in 2015.
McAdoo and not close.
won 11 games, made the playoffs, and won many of those games with game management, which is very much related to the coach (and something complained about in the years prior).
he also made an effort to move the Giants forward observing it needed changes (cough cough) -- a few years before the powers that be... imagine this being 2yrs forward of full rebuild right now.
I think you're confusing an opinion with a fact. This is a simple opinion of what each thinks in reference to which coach may have been a better coach. Your response would be better suited for a question where a fact would be able to satisfy the question.
They were both terrible.
Please find me a hc that gets more out out if that fucking trash heap of a NYG team in 2015. Please. The best player on defense was rookie Landon Collins or DRC. That D was monumentally terrible. The O had no business scoring 427 pts that season, yet they did. Wonder why.
Instead, we got the same dink, dink, dunk, FG that we had seen all season. No fire. After all that emotion. No fight, no fire, they just rolled over and got fucked. Like a bitch.
Quote:
In comment 14900516 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
lost 7 games in which they were either tied or had taken the lead with under three minutes to go in the game.
They finished 6-10. If the defense could have held a lead in just half of those games, there might have been a different outcome.
defense was awful, but TC's game/clock management was an issue as well.
Well, it's a lot harder to manage a game when you know your defense can't ever get a stop. It changes the way you have to call the game. And they could NEVER get a stop. They were god awful.
Giants score 3 4th quarter TD's to tie the game against undefeated Superbowl bound Carolina Panthers, but leave 51 seconds on the clock, in which Cam Newton calmly drives them down the field with zero resistance to kick a chip shot walk off FG. Lots of games like that in 2015.
to be fair, TC had clock/game management issues prior to that season. But, yeah, on a team with a terrible defense, those shortcomings were magnified.
The defense was just completely dreadful and by '15 and couldn't stop anyone. That team started a completely finished Brandon Merryweather at safety. That was a deeply bad defense.
They were both terrible.
Because shurmur was a good game manager on what planet? Game
Management led to many 2016 victories not just blind luck.
Quote:
Mcadoo got lucky in 2016 and then fell apart the second adversity hit in 2017. Shurmur just never got lucky. He faced tougher schedules.
They were both terrible.
Because shurmur was a good game manager on what planet? Game
Management led to many 2016 victories not just blind luck.
$200 million in free agent spending led to 2016 victories.
2017 and beyond showed why that was not such a great idea.
Many dictated by game management
That’s not debatable
The defense was huge of course- but in the end it was close games that were won- not lost like in prior years - the coaching strategy helped -
They also failed to score 20 points for an NFL record 8 game stretch from 2016 to 2017.
Many dictated by game management
That’s not debatable
The defense was huge of course- but in the end it was close games that were won- not lost like in prior years - the coaching strategy helped -
Just because mcadoo didn’t lose those games doesn’t mean he was ahead of the curve in terms of game or clock mgmt. Give me a break. Conversely, just because the giants lost so many close games in 2015 doesn’t mean coughlin was to blame.
The giants in 2015 lost because that terrible defense on paper, played terribly. The giants won in 2016 because the good defense on paper, played very very well. And Eli and Beckham hit some HRs when needed. If Eli and Beckham don’t hit those HRs and mcadoo doesn’t ruin a ready made team week after week we’re looking at a 1970s type team.
Or you can watch the games - see the team manage the clock better and run a more conservative offense designed to the teams strengths - and see the team win games based on the defense, the coach, and obj making huge plays .
Or you can watch the games - see the team manage the clock better and run a more conservative offense designed to the teams strengths - and see the team win games based on the defense, the coach, and obj making huge plays .
The question is, do you question what you believe to see? Just because you think you see something doesn't mean it was present. Your initial post basically said anyone not seeing it your way was wrong, which is odd considering the question is for an opinion.
Quote:
To one thing - place all the blame for the other - carry the one ... you get to your answer.. selective crediting lol.
Or you can watch the games - see the team manage the clock better and run a more conservative offense designed to the teams strengths - and see the team win games based on the defense, the coach, and obj making huge plays .
The question is, do you question what you believe to see? Just because you think you see something doesn't mean it was present. Your initial post basically said anyone not seeing it your way was wrong, which is odd considering the question is for an opinion.
According to some Mcadoo was an offensive coordinator who didn’t deserve credit for the offense putting up points- and when he became head coach he takes blame for the offense dropping off but gets no credit for wins or game management- and then gets blame for all losses when they stink for a variety of issues, himself included
Awesome stuff
no i dont question what i see. we are comparing a coach that has only lost and not shown any game management ability... and a coach that led the last relevant Giants team to close win after close win-- of which nobody wants to credit because he was the first to see that the team needed a massive overhaul.
do you want to ask me another question within a question about my statements? or have an opinion on the topic or sport?
the same guy that called them in 2014 and 2015 as the OC when they lost a sh$t ton of games with generally empty stat offense, a sh$t defense, and bad game management.
Quote:
?
the same guy that called them in 2014 and 2015 as the OC when they lost a sh$t ton of games with generally empty stat offense, a sh$t defense, and bad game management.
Now THAT’S what is debatable.
2004: 22nd
2005: 3rd
2006: 11th
2007: 14th
2008: 5th
2009: 8th
2010: 7th
2011: 9th
2012: 6th
2013: 28th
2014: 13th
2015: 6th
NYG Offense under Mcadoo as HC:
2016: 26th
2017: 31st
But yeah, I guess McAdoo taught Coughlin how to run an offense.
The Giants couldn't run the ball at all. It was clear Cruz was shot. They had no tight end. And most of all Manning truly started to look old. The only offense was Beckham.
It was a sneak peak to what was coming the next 2 years.
It was coaching. Coughlin got a lot more out of those shit rosters than either McAdoo or Shurmur ever did. 2013 was one of the worst rosters I've ever seen, and he got that team to 6 wins, even to 4-5 at one point after an 0-6 start.
It was ALWAYS a roster problem. Always. That's what is crystal clear to me, now, in hindsight.
7-9 was a miracle. Peyton Hillis at Running Back.
Who said anyone taught anyone anything ?
Wtf are you arguing here? Nobody ever debated coughlin having an impact on the offense that Ben brought in- of course he did he was the head coach and is an offensive mind
That doesn’t take away that he brought in a different system with a different drop back for a vet qb and called the plays and was a netT positive for offensive production after the debacle of 2013
Weird post/argument
Never has there been so much desire to take the other side of a schurmur vs Mac discussion lol
The offense was very much still the Tom Coughlin offense that was predicated on throwing the ball deep.
When he did finally implement his "different system", the offense went off a cliff.
Did anybody not expect to lose in Green Bay after we had gone six consecutive weeks without scoring 20 points?
There were posts about it on BBI.
its just very strange that you have made a thread about 2 coaches... now about defending a different coach.
i just want it to be clear again-- you have now made McAdoo take zero credit for the 2016 defense and game management and 11 wins--- take all blame for the 2016 offense (which was conservative by design). and take zero credit for 2014 and 2015 offenses. and likely he is responsible for the debacle of 2017 all by himself.
You think that's attributed to McAdoo's conservative by design playcalling?
And if so, gee, it sure was nice for him to have the 2nd ranked defense to do that!
Obviously the league in general thinks more of Shurmur, he got another OC job pretty easily. I don’t think either ever should or will lead a team again. McAdoo somehow managed to go 11-5 one season, Shurmur only won 9 games in two years.
Hope to god that Judge is another Harbaugh or Tomlin type and is here for 20 years. The Giants need a real leader.
Coaching change...yeah it probably didn’t help but it didn’t cause it.
2014 and 2015 the Giants were in the bottom 5 of the league. In 2017 they were in the Bottom 5 and in 2018, they were in the Bottom 10.
The outlier in there is 2016. And I don't know what Coughlin would have done, but he and Little Bill are the only coaches to win Super Bowls in the past 20 years with teams in the bottom 10 in health. I'd have to check, but they might be the only teams to win titles in the bottom half.