I wanted to just narrow this down in terms of the specific responsibility of Gettleman when it relates to draft picks. I know there is a healthy back and forth debate in the pinned thread, but some of the points are getting lost in the enormity of the thread.
No, Gettleman can not foresee a draft pick committing armed robbery or similar felonies. Is that the bar, though?
Most of us understand that 1st round picks, in particular, are more crucial to getting right because of the high investment in terms of dollars in these picks, but also because of the most often overlooked factor...the
opportunity cost of getting it wrong. In any draft, when you are picking in that top 40 or 50 players, and you really whiff, there is still likely to be a pretty good concentration of players that are real talents that went off the board behind you.
The point is, the Giants didn't NEED to trade back up in the first round, but they used an extra 4th and 5th rounder to do so, to go with #37 overall. That's three picks expended for DeAndre Baker. And the point is, while there was nothing in his draft profile that said "future violent felon," what was in his draft profile were character flags, work ethic issues, not intelligent, didn't take the pre-draft process seriously, didn't test at the combine well, average size, average speed for the position, poor hands, scheme-specific (zone coverage not a strength). And I won't ignore the positives, either...he only allowed 1 TD I believe in his college career...ultimate competitor, highly confident, swagger, rises to the challenge, an "island" type of corner, Jim Thorpe Award winner.
But I posted this in the other thread...here are the CBs that went off the board following the #30 pick:
Player------------Overall Pick # Drafted
Byron Murphy--#33
Rock Ya-Sin--#34
Sean Murphy-Bunting--#39 (All-Rookie Team for the Bucs taken after Giants 2nd round pick at #37 they traded up from).
Trayvon Mullen--#40
JoeJuan Williams--#45
Greedy Williams--#46
Lonnie Johnson--#54
That's plenty of talent at the position. They could've still traded up and taken Byron Murphy, who was Sy's guy. They could've stayed put and taken Sean Murphy-Bunting, who was taken just two picks after #37, the pick we moved up from. Murphy-Bunting made the All-Rookie Team and had a tremendous year for the Bucs, 3 INTs (with a pick-6) and a FF, 8 passes defensed. And there of course were the other corners.
So did it make sense to spend those picks on a trade up there? My thoughts last year were that they should trade up...back into the top 50 with the extra picks they had...get an extra 2nd. I certainly realize the extra value in the 5th year option, but there were a lot of similarly rated players in the top half of the 2nd round. The guy I really loved was A.J. Brown, taken far too late at #51. But what I would've done isn't important.
The greater point here is that when you have a prospect that has flags, like Baker, you should be reticent to use a premium pick on those guys. And for Baker, they used #37, #132, and #142 to get him, which is, no matter how many extra picks they had, a tremendous amount of draft capital expended on a guy with his draft profile and who interviewed poorly. Character and intelligence should be high up there when making decisions with premium picks. Bill Belichick puts a huge emphasis on intelligence. I hope that Judge's influence in the coming years helps to avoid repeating this kind of mistake.
Here is what Sy'56 wrote immediately after the draft:
ROUND 1 - #30 OVERALL
Deandre Baker � CB/Georgia � 5�11/193
Summary: Baker was a three year starter for the Bulldogs that progressively improved as a prospect from the beginning of 2017. The two-time all SEC defender (1st Team in 2018) brings the kind of confidence and swagger that can take on the numerous challenges of playing cornerback in the NFL. He can be left alone on an island and stick with anyone on all levels of the route tree as well as make plays on the ball like a receiver. His issues can be correctable, mainly the technique-based and mental ones. The lack of power presence can be an issue at times but in a league where contact is allowed less and less in coverage, the corners that can get the job done via instincts, agility, and speed stand out a bit more.
*I was surprised by the trade up, and I was surprised by the selection. Before I get in to why, know that I had a top 15 overall grade on him and I think it was a great value-grab. What surprised me was the fact he didn�t receive a lot of love from the UGA coaching staff when it came to character and work ethic. In addition, it was public knowledge he didn�t interview very well. While that is all subjective and it shouldn�t be a make or break, with how NYG has been trying to steer this �team culture� idea back on the straight and narrow, a trade up for Baker was puzzling. In addition, there were a handful of corners there that fit the similar grade. Was it necessary to trade up? I�m not sure but I do understand why. They had picks to burn, Baker was their top guy that probably fits the scheme more than the others, and there is one more thing that may go unnoticed by some. Drafting Baker in round 1 allows for the 5th year team option to be added to the rookie contract so that if he does indeed become a big time player, they won�t have to pay him big time money until his sixth season. Baker will likely compete for a starting spot opposite Janoris Jenkins with Sam Beal and if I had to pick a winner right now, it is Baker. He is a competitor that shows up on game day and plays well in the highest-pressure situations. Really good fit and a really good pick.
WHO I WOULD HAVE TAKEN
Byron Murphy � CB/Washington - 5�11/190
Summary: Third year sophomore entry. Murphy missed 7 games in 2017 with a broken foot but came back with a 1st Team All Pac 12, 2nd Team All American performance. Despite the lack of game�experience, Murphy proved to be one of the more NFL-ready corners in the class with his top shelf athletic ability and ball tracking. He does play a little light which will need to change in the NFL, but his aggressive style and fast twitch reactions make him scary to throw near. If the technique can get cleaned up and he can improve in zone coverage, he has starting corner written all over him.
*The need for more talent at corner was obvious. With NYG back on the clock, Murphy was my top available player and because I like the upside and character with him more so than Baker, I leaned in his direction even though he may struggle to handle bigger, more physical receivers more so. Murphy is Mr. Smooth out there with the anticipation and reaction I always look for from the position. He screams �dependable� every time I watch him and I love who this kid is off the field. |
Link:
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2& thread=582854
With all the facts that were known, and given extra resources were used for a trade up for this player...criticism and blame should be rightfully placed at Gettleman's feet. No matter who else is in the room pounding the table, sans the owner or VP of Player Personnel, the buck stops with the GM, and they are ultimately judged on these decisions. Baker's red flags were known. They were known by Sy'56, they were known by the Georgia staff, they were known by Walter Football, they were known by Tony Pauline. But the Giants
That was a poor choice. And I say that as a fan that believes Gettleman has been getting this franchise back on the right track. But certainly, the job could've been done quicker without big missteps like this one. And it's also important to note that Baker was not the consensus top corner, either. Murphy was very close and was also considered by many as the top corner in the draft, who reportedly left UW with a 3.5 GPA. And I know many will scoff at academic achievement, but it's about how a person takes care of their responsibilities. All of those things should matter, because if they are taking care of responsibilities in other aspects of their life, the chances are greater they will take care of the responsibilities given to them on your football team.
I know this is long, so I'll put a bow on it...the pick itself might not have been the worst gamble in the history of the draft had he been there at #37, but trading up, using extra resources on a player with this profile and considering the other players still on the board, that's a terrible decision, one that should be greatly criticized and DG should take a hit on this.
And as I've said, I've been a DG defender plenty of other times...particularly when it comes to drafting Saquon, but it isn't fair to completely whitewash his responsibility just because you can't see an armed robbery coming. Not being a felon
IS NOT the bar for the smart allocation of premium draft picks. And with his job, and their resources as an organization and a scouting staff...using those picks to move up in the first round for this player with these flags...it's kind of inexcusable.
How can they be doing everything right? No matter what happens it's no one's fault? No one should be held accountable?
No matter who the coach is, no matter who the GM is no matter what the latest example of their incompetence is this guy spends an inordinate amount of his time blindly defending them like a brainwashed Baghdad Bob.
It's scary and kind of sad in a way and also kind of hilariously funny.
Imagine what the conversation would be on BBI if one of the other NFC East teams who had the worst record in the NFL the past 3 years who had drafted Flowers, Beckham, Apple spent 3 picks on Baker and then saw him arrested for armed robbery.
It’s amazing
One poster accused him of being a paid shill, I actually hope that is the case because if not, good lord.
Usual tactic from FMIC here
He also said "active criminal past". My usual tactic stays pretty consistent - calling out moronic comments.
It's legal to play poker for money in home games in many states, under certain guidelines. In Connecticut, it's legal, "provided natural persons shall be exempt from prosecution and punishment under this subsection for any game, wager or transaction which is incidental to a bona fide social relationship, is participated in by natural persons only and in which no person is participating, directly or indirectly, in professional gambling."
Unlicensed high stakes games in Florida, definitely not, though.
That was funny
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or he's got a severe mental illness. What has to go wrong in your mind to spend the time and effort hour after hour, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year to defend an organization 100% of the time no matter what the subject is when that organization has the the worst record in the NFL for the past 3 years and 6 losing seasons out of their last 7.
How can they be doing everything right? No matter what happens it's no one's fault? No one should be held accountable?
No matter who the coach is, no matter who the GM is no matter what the latest example of their incompetence is this guy spends an inordinate amount of his time blindly defending them like a brainwashed Baghdad Bob.
It's scary and kind of sad in a way and also kind of hilariously funny.
Imagine what the conversation would be on BBI if one of the other NFC East teams who had the worst record in the NFL the past 3 years who had drafted Flowers, Beckham, Apple spent 3 picks on Baker and then saw him arrested for armed robbery.
It’s amazing
One poster accused him of being a paid shill, I actually hope that is the case because if not, good lord.
You do realize flipping that around makes you look pretgy bad too. I doubt they have paid critics, so you just waste a bunch of time criticizing from thread to thread regarding a team you supposedly root for.
Good Lord is appropriate there too, if not moreso. Think about it. You actively hate the team whose message board you frequent for hours a day.
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looking forward to their upcoming bank robbery.
It's legal to play poker for money in home games in many states, under certain guidelines. In Connecticut, it's legal, "provided natural persons shall be exempt from prosecution and punishment under this subsection for any game, wager or transaction which is incidental to a bona fide social relationship, is participated in by natural persons only and in which no person is participating, directly or indirectly, in professional gambling."
Unlicensed high stakes games in Florida, definitely not, though.
What's your point? Mine was that high stakes illegal poker doesn't = red flag for armed robbery. One of my friends gambled tonf of money with bookies each year and ive never once seem him show a single trait of violent tendencies - in fact he's usally the guy preventing fights.
This "we should have known Baker would do this because of the red flags" garbage is complete nonsense. No one is absolving DG for drafting him - he did it and its not a bad pick and he's got to live with that. But to suggest we should have seen this coming is 100% bullshit and disingenuous.
Are you not entertained?
After a certain point in the draft, you are looking at players with various issues. It could be their height, their work ethic, their size, their intelligence and yes their character. You scout the player, talk to the scouts, talk to the college coaches, talk to the player and you make assessments on is this correctable. Can the player play and be a contributor to the team. I am sure the giants knew his strengths and weaknesses and they felt he was better than any of the other cornerbacks available (which is why they traded up for him).
There is absolutely nothing about his work ethic, being lazy or anything that came out prior to him being drafted that he would pull this garbage.
McKinney, was expected to be a late first round pick, but fell to the 2nd round because according to reports he didn't run well in the 40. If he is slow on the NFL level and can't keep up with wide receivers, blame the GM. If he goes out tomorrow and robs a bank, blame the player.
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In comment 14903789 UConn4523 said:
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looking forward to their upcoming bank robbery.
It's legal to play poker for money in home games in many states, under certain guidelines. In Connecticut, it's legal, "provided natural persons shall be exempt from prosecution and punishment under this subsection for any game, wager or transaction which is incidental to a bona fide social relationship, is participated in by natural persons only and in which no person is participating, directly or indirectly, in professional gambling."
Unlicensed high stakes games in Florida, definitely not, though.
What's your point? Mine was that high stakes illegal poker doesn't = red flag for armed robbery. One of my friends gambled tonf of money with bookies each year and ive never once seem him show a single trait of violent tendencies - in fact he's usally the guy preventing fights.
This "we should have known Baker would do this because of the red flags" garbage is complete nonsense. No one is absolving DG for drafting him - he did it and its not a bad pick and he's got to live with that. But to suggest we should have seen this coming is 100% bullshit and disingenuous.
I wasn’t saying that Illegal gambling Leads to arm robbery.
Someone theorized that this is unlikely to be his first illegal activity. I think that’s pretty fair assumption and just use the gambling as one known example.
I am not making the leap that the Giants should’ve been aware of activity that apparently the police also weren't aware of.
I’m also not saying that he has a history of doing this. It’s quite probable this is the worst thing he’s ever done in his life.
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In comment 14903789 UConn4523 said:
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looking forward to their upcoming bank robbery.
It's legal to play poker for money in home games in many states, under certain guidelines. In Connecticut, it's legal, "provided natural persons shall be exempt from prosecution and punishment under this subsection for any game, wager or transaction which is incidental to a bona fide social relationship, is participated in by natural persons only and in which no person is participating, directly or indirectly, in professional gambling."
Unlicensed high stakes games in Florida, definitely not, though.
What's your point? Mine was that high stakes illegal poker doesn't = red flag for armed robbery. One of my friends gambled tonf of money with bookies each year and ive never once seem him show a single trait of violent tendencies - in fact he's usally the guy preventing fights.
This "we should have known Baker would do this because of the red flags" garbage is complete nonsense. No one is absolving DG for drafting him - he did it and its not a bad pick and he's got to live with that. But to suggest we should have seen this coming is 100% bullshit and disingenuous.
Your argument that anyone is saying this is what is disingenuous and nonsense.
Particularly, not me, and my OP was very clear on this as I went on about it at length. I still haven't seen anywhere in any of the threads here where anyone has argued that DG or anyone else should've "seen this coming."
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You can question the trade-up if you care to..I blame him as much for Baker’s actions as I do Belichick with Hernandez
You don't blame Gettlemen in any way? Seriously? Is he responsible for anything at all? It was a bad pick in terms of performance, in terms of attitude and now he's disgraced the franchise. What exactly is DG responsible for?
What? I don’t blame him for picking Baker in terms of potential criminal activity. Personality red flags are not criminal flags anymore than Moss, Tunsil and countless others. Debate a trade up if you will or the merits of the pick talent-wise, but blame him for what went down? No..
I'll say it again: Aaron Hernandez was a fourth round pick. You want to gamble on players with red flags in the 4th round, fine.
Also, Belichick didn't trade up for Hernandez. In fact, Hernandez was taken with the 113th pick that was acquired from the Broncos when the Patriots traded DOWN from #22 to #24 in 2010...so it was an "extra" 4th rounder to boot.
That's a far cry from expending #37, #132, and #142 on Baker.
Why draft any player with red flags then? How come so many teams do it?
I recall Jerry Reese being asked about Ahmad Bradshaw's robbery conviction (he had spend timein jail after the 2007 season was over) by Francesa. He asked how you decide to pick or not pick a guy with those kinds of issues. Reese said someting to the effect that you meet the coaches, then you meet the kid and the family, and you have to decide whether it was just a kid making a stupid decision and will learn from it and grow up or if he's truly a bad kid. If you think it's the former, you take him, the latter you don't. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.
With Bradshaw it worked. And also Keith Hamilton. Will Hill would be the latter example And they were mid to late round picks or UDFA. Nobody thought that Baker was this type of "character risk", nobody saw him dropping to the 4th round or later due to the aforementioned issues. Anyone who says they did now is full of shit.
Seriously, who else would be? Where would the buck stop? Now, this monumental bust can be weighed against other work done by the GM over his career or tenure with the team.
But, he has no responsibility? No way.
What am I missing here?
Seriously, who else would be? Where would the buck stop? Now, this monumental bust can be weighed against other work done by the GM over his career or tenure with the team.
But, he has no responsibility? No way.
If the argument is that there was no need to trade up, that value was available where they were, yes, that is a valid criticism. To say that they should have known he was an armed thug when there was no evidence of that type of behavior, no.
Seriously, who else would be? Where would the buck stop? Now, this monumental bust can be weighed against other work done by the GM over his career or tenure with the team.
But, he has no responsibility? No way.
DG is responsible for Baker being on the team. Not for him going to jail.
Are you attributing responsibility to assign blame?
And the comparison to Aaron Hernandez is mind-blowingly nonsensical.
Aaron Hernandez was A FOURTH ROUND PICK!
That is precisely the part of the draft you take chances on players with talent but have flags...not first round picks, and certainly not an extra 4th and 5th to move up 7 spots to #30 overall.
^^ GDS
What am I missing here?
1st pick now a bust. This is bad for any GM. Waste of this asset and goes against his record.
Attempting to ascertain personality, character and ability to be a professional who can contribute is part of the process of making a pick.
Clearly, something went wrong here so it counts against the man in charge.
Simple to me. I am not saying it is a firable offense, but it goes squarely in the negative column.
That he decided to be a turd, is not DG's, Shurmur's or Bettcher's fault. People are people, whether it is Will Hill smoking pot everyday or Laremy Tunsil donning a mask, you cannot know what is in a person's heart.
Fine line between fault and accountability.
If a manager identifies culture improvement as a pillar in improving performance — and then:
- retains and proclaims an employee a mentor, who then is cut mid-season for using a slur
- hires an employee who then is suspended for 1/4 of the year for cheating and then makes up a wild, unbelievable story no one believes
- trades three resources for one resource, who then is inattentive and unproductive (put aside allegedly goes bonkers and robs a poker game)
Might there be an argument he’s not doing a good job at a goal he set for himself?
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With the need to always find someone to be at fault? What is the good from it? What does it solve?
Fine line between fault and accountability.
If a manager identifies culture improvement as a pillar in improving performance — and then:
- retains and proclaims an employee a mentor, who then is cut mid-season for using a slur
- hires an employee who then is suspended for 1/4 of the year for cheating and then makes up a wild, unbelievable story no one believes
- trades three resources for one resource, who then is inattentive and unproductive (put aside allegedly goes bonkers and robs a poker game)
Might there be an argument he’s not doing a good job at a goal he set for himself?
I don't think "culture" is as easy to build as a lot of fans think. There is a lot that goes into figuring out who you're dealing with. A great talent we humans possess is the ability to deceive.
I don't see the point for fans to have someone to blame. We're not involved in the decision making process in these situations for these teams. So we find who is responsible, then what? What does it help?
Go through every team and do the same exercise, I bet things will look shockingly similar. Heck the Chiefs, Pats, Ravens, Steelers, Cowboys, Eagles are huge culprits but they have had excellent coaching to make up for it.
Go for it.
If I set a goal of solving a problem, declare the problem solved, and then evidence of the problem persists -- are these wise actions?
1) not declare problems solved again until the evidence supports my hypothesis
2) reassess the tactics I used to address the problem
3) assess whether it's a problem that can ever even be solved and should be a priority
Now -- is the goal or anyone's expectation there to be zero incidents of the problem? Unlikely. Are 3 significant incidents a pattern? Maybe so.
Are self reflection, self awareness, and self assessment qualities that are virtually always to the benefit of a program from a manager?
Remember, my comment wasn't Dave Gettleman is a bad guy, bad GM, bad smelling.
Between October 2012 and September 2013, the Giants went from serious contenders to doormats. It didn’t take much: a few key injuries, some cap pressure, a couple of acquisitions that didn’t work out, and some vets declining a little earlier than the team expected.
The team has now been very bad for most of the past eight years. It will remain bad until the decisions that turn out well outnumber the ones that don’t - whether those decisions are defensible in real time or not.
Are we criticizing the Baker trade/pick with the benefit of hindsight? Of course. It’s impossible to judge a football team’s moves any other way. You can cut Gettleman and the scouts some slack because you think picking Baker “made sense at the time.” But if Deandre Baker’s Giant career comprises one season and four wins, he will be remembered as a horrible mistake.
Go for it.
And a lot of those guys that drafted those terrible players got fired
If McKinney doesn't show up ready to make very few mistakes in his learning curve as well as play above Sy's projection of him covering the deep parts of the field it's going to be a long season for us.
And this was honestly a question mark with or without Baker this year as expecting us to even be good in that area required Baker to take leaps from last season with his already questionable work ethic.
The Giants did Judge zero favors by continuing to saddle him with a GM that seems to care a lot more about being condescending to people that being thorough in his approach. The bluster would be a lot more lovable if he didn't also do things like not investigate trade down offers and make trades like the LW move that has anyone that wouldn't approve of any move they made really scratching their heads. With a new GM Judge would have been given much more patience to build something but the media and fans will be ready to feast on a bad start with the extremely tough schedule we have and that will be completely justified. But this has been the Giants leaderships MO now for a bit, not anticipate sometimes obvious problems, have them blow up in their faces, say they take the problems seriously, rinse, repeat.
Go for it.
Why draft any player with red flags then? How come so many teams do it?
Refresh my memory... was Baker doing anything to prove wrong any of the concerns contained within the red flags that were listed? Were his work ethic and dedication and intelligence showing signs of those flags having been wrong?
The issue isn't whether DG should have seen the armed robbery coming. It's that Baker is a shitty pick that wound up being exactly what the red flags suggested could be an issue for him as a player, and now due to perhaps some even worse personality flaws, the book is very likely closed on Baker's opportunity to ever restore any value for having picked him.
But we shouldn't ignore the fact that even before the armed robbery, Baker was still very possibly on the path to being a bust simply because of the actual issues that could have been predicted based on his flags.
I mean, this was posted by Sy:
You guys are clearly better at parsing words, so point me to where safe and reliable point to a guy riddled with red flags.
Let's just face it - Baker was arrested and in the rush to spread blame around, his draft day reputation was wildly exaggerated.
This is the crux of why there's "defense" of the ridiculous shit that has been said in the past 24 hours.
I mean, this was posted by Sy:
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*Another safe pick here that may have a limited upside, but at this position you just want reliable. That is Baker is a nutshell.
You guys are clearly better at parsing words, so point me to where safe and reliable point to a guy riddled with red flags.
Let's just face it - Baker was arrested and in the rush to spread blame around, his draft day reputation was wildly exaggerated.
This is the crux of why there's "defense" of the ridiculous shit that has been said in the past 24 hours.
You can act like he also didn't mention the character flags, or that others didn't, or that the Giants didn't know, which we now have a really good idea they did, and just post only the snippets that support your position and ignore everything else, but because we know that there is indeed more, and everything I just said is reality, it doesn't matter. The Giants knew and that should've been enough to not make that high of an investment on him. But others did too and it was documented. Maybe not very well on BBI, but it was documented and the people whose job it is to know apparently did know, and they did what they did anyway.
Did you touch a hot stove after your mom told you that you would get burned?
You talk about snippets, but that's exactly what that nugget of shit is.
What should have been enough to not make an investment is him?
Do I really need to point to players with whispers who turned out fine? 1st rounders even?
- JPP
- Zeke
- Dez
- Favre
- Marino
Fuck - those are just the superstars. Every year, multiple first rounders have the same comments made. Some succeed. Some fail.
So just to bottom line this - we should invest a first rounder in a player with character concerns? Let's get on record here.
By the way - what's your take on Lawrence?
If he doesn’t, it’s a bad pick.
Make enough bad picks and lose enough games and you get fired
Those are the rules and they are not hard to understand .
But looking strictly at his film, at his statistical accomplishments (in the SEC none the less, with Baker typically blanketing the Dawgs' opposition's best WR), at comments I've heard from GA football beat guys who've called Baker the best cover corner they have ever seen in the history of Georgia football, it wasn't so fucking obvious, was it? What if Baker turned out to be Darrel Revis part II?
BECAUSE that could have happened. It could still happen... even if I'd lay odds against it.
By the way, noting that 1) he failed to prepare for the combine, 2) he tested poorly at the combine, and 3) he posseses only average speed is basically making 3 points from 1. It's cheating to exaggerate his deficiencies.
You're pulling one over on yourself, faulting him thusly, IMO.
This post is too much undies in a bunch for you, AllStarJim.
You should've saved it for after he's cut.