I wanted to just narrow this down in terms of the specific responsibility of Gettleman when it relates to draft picks. I know there is a healthy back and forth debate in the pinned thread, but some of the points are getting lost in the enormity of the thread.
No, Gettleman can not foresee a draft pick committing armed robbery or similar felonies. Is that the bar, though?
Most of us understand that 1st round picks, in particular, are more crucial to getting right because of the high investment in terms of dollars in these picks, but also because of the most often overlooked factor...the
opportunity cost of getting it wrong. In any draft, when you are picking in that top 40 or 50 players, and you really whiff, there is still likely to be a pretty good concentration of players that are real talents that went off the board behind you.
The point is, the Giants didn't NEED to trade back up in the first round, but they used an extra 4th and 5th rounder to do so, to go with #37 overall. That's three picks expended for DeAndre Baker. And the point is, while there was nothing in his draft profile that said "future violent felon," what was in his draft profile were character flags, work ethic issues, not intelligent, didn't take the pre-draft process seriously, didn't test at the combine well, average size, average speed for the position, poor hands, scheme-specific (zone coverage not a strength). And I won't ignore the positives, either...he only allowed 1 TD I believe in his college career...ultimate competitor, highly confident, swagger, rises to the challenge, an "island" type of corner, Jim Thorpe Award winner.
But I posted this in the other thread...here are the CBs that went off the board following the #30 pick:
Player------------Overall Pick # Drafted
Byron Murphy--#33
Rock Ya-Sin--#34
Sean Murphy-Bunting--#39 (All-Rookie Team for the Bucs taken after Giants 2nd round pick at #37 they traded up from).
Trayvon Mullen--#40
JoeJuan Williams--#45
Greedy Williams--#46
Lonnie Johnson--#54
That's plenty of talent at the position. They could've still traded up and taken Byron Murphy, who was Sy's guy. They could've stayed put and taken Sean Murphy-Bunting, who was taken just two picks after #37, the pick we moved up from. Murphy-Bunting made the All-Rookie Team and had a tremendous year for the Bucs, 3 INTs (with a pick-6) and a FF, 8 passes defensed. And there of course were the other corners.
So did it make sense to spend those picks on a trade up there? My thoughts last year were that they should trade up...back into the top 50 with the extra picks they had...get an extra 2nd. I certainly realize the extra value in the 5th year option, but there were a lot of similarly rated players in the top half of the 2nd round. The guy I really loved was A.J. Brown, taken far too late at #51. But what I would've done isn't important.
The greater point here is that when you have a prospect that has flags, like Baker, you should be reticent to use a premium pick on those guys. And for Baker, they used #37, #132, and #142 to get him, which is, no matter how many extra picks they had, a tremendous amount of draft capital expended on a guy with his draft profile and who interviewed poorly. Character and intelligence should be high up there when making decisions with premium picks. Bill Belichick puts a huge emphasis on intelligence. I hope that Judge's influence in the coming years helps to avoid repeating this kind of mistake.
Here is what Sy'56 wrote immediately after the draft:
ROUND 1 - #30 OVERALL
Deandre Baker � CB/Georgia � 5�11/193
Summary: Baker was a three year starter for the Bulldogs that progressively improved as a prospect from the beginning of 2017. The two-time all SEC defender (1st Team in 2018) brings the kind of confidence and swagger that can take on the numerous challenges of playing cornerback in the NFL. He can be left alone on an island and stick with anyone on all levels of the route tree as well as make plays on the ball like a receiver. His issues can be correctable, mainly the technique-based and mental ones. The lack of power presence can be an issue at times but in a league where contact is allowed less and less in coverage, the corners that can get the job done via instincts, agility, and speed stand out a bit more.
*I was surprised by the trade up, and I was surprised by the selection. Before I get in to why, know that I had a top 15 overall grade on him and I think it was a great value-grab. What surprised me was the fact he didn�t receive a lot of love from the UGA coaching staff when it came to character and work ethic. In addition, it was public knowledge he didn�t interview very well. While that is all subjective and it shouldn�t be a make or break, with how NYG has been trying to steer this �team culture� idea back on the straight and narrow, a trade up for Baker was puzzling. In addition, there were a handful of corners there that fit the similar grade. Was it necessary to trade up? I�m not sure but I do understand why. They had picks to burn, Baker was their top guy that probably fits the scheme more than the others, and there is one more thing that may go unnoticed by some. Drafting Baker in round 1 allows for the 5th year team option to be added to the rookie contract so that if he does indeed become a big time player, they won�t have to pay him big time money until his sixth season. Baker will likely compete for a starting spot opposite Janoris Jenkins with Sam Beal and if I had to pick a winner right now, it is Baker. He is a competitor that shows up on game day and plays well in the highest-pressure situations. Really good fit and a really good pick.
WHO I WOULD HAVE TAKEN
Byron Murphy � CB/Washington - 5�11/190
Summary: Third year sophomore entry. Murphy missed 7 games in 2017 with a broken foot but came back with a 1st Team All Pac 12, 2nd Team All American performance. Despite the lack of game�experience, Murphy proved to be one of the more NFL-ready corners in the class with his top shelf athletic ability and ball tracking. He does play a little light which will need to change in the NFL, but his aggressive style and fast twitch reactions make him scary to throw near. If the technique can get cleaned up and he can improve in zone coverage, he has starting corner written all over him.
*The need for more talent at corner was obvious. With NYG back on the clock, Murphy was my top available player and because I like the upside and character with him more so than Baker, I leaned in his direction even though he may struggle to handle bigger, more physical receivers more so. Murphy is Mr. Smooth out there with the anticipation and reaction I always look for from the position. He screams �dependable� every time I watch him and I love who this kid is off the field. |
Link:
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2& thread=582854
With all the facts that were known, and given extra resources were used for a trade up for this player...criticism and blame should be rightfully placed at Gettleman's feet. No matter who else is in the room pounding the table, sans the owner or VP of Player Personnel, the buck stops with the GM, and they are ultimately judged on these decisions. Baker's red flags were known. They were known by Sy'56, they were known by the Georgia staff, they were known by Walter Football, they were known by Tony Pauline. But the Giants
That was a poor choice. And I say that as a fan that believes Gettleman has been getting this franchise back on the right track. But certainly, the job could've been done quicker without big missteps like this one. And it's also important to note that Baker was not the consensus top corner, either. Murphy was very close and was also considered by many as the top corner in the draft, who reportedly left UW with a 3.5 GPA. And I know many will scoff at academic achievement, but it's about how a person takes care of their responsibilities. All of those things should matter, because if they are taking care of responsibilities in other aspects of their life, the chances are greater they will take care of the responsibilities given to them on your football team.
I know this is long, so I'll put a bow on it...the pick itself might not have been the worst gamble in the history of the draft had he been there at #37, but trading up, using extra resources on a player with this profile and considering the other players still on the board, that's a terrible decision, one that should be greatly criticized and DG should take a hit on this.
And as I've said, I've been a DG defender plenty of other times...particularly when it comes to drafting Saquon, but it isn't fair to completely whitewash his responsibility just because you can't see an armed robbery coming. Not being a felon
IS NOT the bar for the smart allocation of premium draft picks. And with his job, and their resources as an organization and a scouting staff...using those picks to move up in the first round for this player with these flags...it's kind of inexcusable.
At a minimum, maybe a time for self reflection and reevaluation for a management team who expressly prioritized culture, and executed on that strategy by eliminating (sometimes at monetary cost to the team) bad actors?
Hell, it hasn't even been a decade since the Giants beat the Pats in the second SB - and we don't have a "fraction" of the success.
Being in 10% of all SB's says otherwise.
Kirby Smart wasn't one of those questioning Baker on that decision.
No offense, but the amount of former Giants starting for other teams is among the bottom of the league. And you are calling this a positive?
This is not sour grapes, I do not have access to all the information that NFL team scouting departments do, nor the resources, the budget, the face time, and everything that goes into the analysis. You can go the MMQB route if you want, and a lot of times that's fair when picks don't work out. But when people were saying stuff at the time, like Sy'56, specifically noting red flags, and it's YOUR JOB to do this background work...to me the MMQB stuff falls on deaf ears a little more.
I can acknowledge draft picks miss. You aren't going to bat a thousand. But criticism is warranted where it's due, and there's some warranted this time. As I've said before, I think DG has overall done a pretty good job and has put the team on the right path for the future. Not giving a pass here, though.
Ha, that conversation was taking place just a day or two ago, in the "who was better McAdoo or Shurmur" thread.
The Giants traded 3 draft picks for the rights to select Baker.
Picks 37, 132, 142 in exchange for pick 30.
Maybe you mean the Giants lost a net 2 picks in the trade?
Yup. The amount of "red flag" players that end up not only being good players but model citizens is plentiful.
People want any reason to put blame on the guy they don't like. What they should be doing is putting blame on the guy who pulled his gun out. Do we blame Accorsi for Plaxico shooting himself because he had red flags when he left Pittsburgh?
And as Sy said the reason he dropped was because of the "work ethic" concerns...
Now I am sure we can came up with a ton of players that come into the league with similar reputations and some made it and some didn't..
But my guess is none of them committed an armed robbery...
I did express concern earlier he was chirpy like JJ.
It was a terrible idea to annoint JJ as the mentor of a bunch of young CBs, usually that's on coaching.
This is not sour grapes, I do not have access to all the information that NFL team scouting departments do, nor the resources, the budget, the face time, and everything that goes into the analysis. You can go the MMQB route if you want, and a lot of times that's fair when picks don't work out. But when people were saying stuff at the time, like Sy'56, specifically noting red flags, and it's YOUR JOB to do this background work...to me the MMQB stuff falls on deaf ears a little more.
I can acknowledge draft picks miss. You aren't going to bat a thousand. But criticism is warranted where it's due, and there's some warranted this time. As I've said before, I think DG has overall done a pretty good job and has put the team on the right path for the future. Not giving a pass here, though.
That’s a much different sentiment and tone than the original post, I can agree with that
After he told a vet he “ didn’t have to do shit“ When that vet told him to pay attention from the sideline
After he completely gave up on a play
After it was reported he either wasn’t paying attention or falling asleep in meetings
Yes, that is all a precursor to armed robbery. We should have known that would happen.
You really aren't helping your argument. In fact, Its pretty poor.
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Character was brought up multiple times last year.
After he told a vet he “ didn’t have to do shit“ When that vet told him to pay attention from the sideline
After he completely gave up on a play
After it was reported he either wasn’t paying attention or falling asleep in meetings
Yes, that is all a precursor to armed robbery. We should have known that would happen.
You really aren't helping your argument. In fact, Its pretty poor.
I handed in a few assignments in late when I was in college. Also talked back to my parents a few times.
Guess it's time to go rob a bank
Maybe we should start a thread bashing teams who draft busts in the first round.i mean hardly anyone ever does that. Should be hard to find examples.
Absolutely. Was listening to WFAN earlier and the same thing crossed my mind - can't we just shit on any GM who drafts a player that fucks up?
Its such a stupid exercise. Jerry Reese didn't fail when he drafed JPP or Beckham - JPP blew his hand up and Bekcham turned into someone that couldn't be controlled. That is 1,000% on the player no matter how you want to spin it.
You've got to have some defensive players that play with an edge (not the kind of edge that robs people at gunpoint, but you know what I mean). You can only have so many team captain/do-gooders on every team - fans love (especially Giants fans) and have been clamoring for a guy to be that kind of player on this defense for several years now. DG took a shot on a guy that was an enormous talent that could bring some swagger to a defense. Trading up into the 1st rd for him made sense at the time just like SY wrote in his review. No one predicted this kind of behavior out of Baker.
The other thing I'll say that I don't think Baker was going to be a bad player. Corey Webster was terrible for stretches during his career...but the Giants don't win 2 Super Bowls without him. Playing CB in the NFL is probably the 2nd or 3rd toughest position to learn and I think that by the end of last year, Baker was making some serious strides.
You can't project the failures of one man onto another. This is all on Baker - he made his choice.
#37, #132, and #142. That's 3 picks. If he didn't trade up and drafted a player at #37, he would've used 1 pick to acquire the player. You and I probably mean the same things, but what you mean is it was two EXTRA picks to acquire the player. I am referring to the total investment used to acquire the player, which was 3 picks.
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In comment 14903615 ron mexico said:
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Character was brought up multiple times last year.
After he told a vet he “ didn’t have to do shit“ When that vet told him to pay attention from the sideline
After he completely gave up on a play
After it was reported he either wasn’t paying attention or falling asleep in meetings
Yes, that is all a precursor to armed robbery. We should have known that would happen.
You really aren't helping your argument. In fact, Its pretty poor.
I handed in a few assignments in late when I was in college. Also talked back to my parents a few times.
Guess it's time to go rob a bank
Did anyone consider giving you $9 million GTD for the next 4 years of your labor?
if baker turned out to be a good player, we would be happy.
but the pick blew up in their face. DG can't only get credit if something good happens. He deserves blame for the bad. And there has been A LOT of bad under his tenure. Way more bad than good.
I was so alarmed by last season's home loss against the Cardinals that I inflicted a second viewing on myself and the main thing that stood out was Baker's lamentable attitude and effort in the loss, in which he played the leading role. The Cards long TD runs were run right at Baker, who couldn't be bothered to fight off his blocker. He should have been benched immediately after the game.
Another point: isn't going from no record to a planned robbery with associates and weapons kind of a big leap? I have no record of any kind and my first foray into crime if I ever did it would be maybe... shoplifting? That suggests that Baker had an active criminal past, that simply evaded the notice of UGa and the Giants.
Gettleman is in charge and he absolutely is at fault for this totally blown pick. (And the player who I regret not taking is the Jags OT Jawaan Taylor.)
LOL
If you can't wrap your head around that it was 3 picks that were traded for Baker, then I can't expect you to understand that literally nobody is making the argument that you should be able to extrapolate ROBBING PEOPLE AT GUNPOINT from work ethic issues. Literally no one is saying that.
What I am saying is the work ethic/character issues that were known should've been a deal-breaker to using that amount of draft capital for that particular player, to move up only 7 spots, especially with what was still on the board, both at the same position and the overall talent.
I was so alarmed by last season's home loss against the Cardinals that I inflicted a second viewing on myself and the main thing that stood out was Baker's lamentable attitude and effort in the loss, in which he played the leading role. The Cards long TD runs were run right at Baker, who couldn't be bothered to fight off his blocker. He should have been benched immediately after the game.
Another point: isn't going from no record to a planned robbery with associates and weapons kind of a big leap? I have no record of any kind and my first foray into crime if I ever did it would be maybe... shoplifting? That suggests that Baker had an active criminal past, that simply evaded the notice of UGa and the Giants.
Gettleman is in charge and he absolutely is at fault for this totally blown pick. (And the player who I regret not taking is the Jags OT Jawaan Taylor.)
Thanks...I've been around BBI a LOOOONG time. The bomb-throwers don't impact me one iota anymore. When I was a 20-something and more hot-headed, sure. Now I just roll my eyes. Anyway, thanks for seeing the nuance and balance in my post.
Baker had a secret life of crime?
Holy, fucking shit
Not only did that stupid move leave us without a left tackle for the next 4 years, but we were forced to give a good free agent a great contract, and then also spend a top 5 pick acquiring another tackle. Not to mention putting an all-pro cb (Dominic Rodgers-Cromartie) in a specialty role just so our new draft pick can see some playing time.
It’s a dangerous precedent you’re setting here, saying that we should turn our eye on any player with mild character concerns. DeAndre Baker has full responsibility for his actions, being at UGA, surrounded by a successful program and football all year long. As a scout, it’s a tough battle to assume how a kid is going to behave once he gets back to his home town and the crowd he grew up with. Some draftees specifically get a house in the new city they’re in, just to avoid this situation altogether. DeAndre Baker had every resource at his disposal to make a better decision.
But I guess you would have taken Laremy Tunsil and passed on Baker, because... you have common sense right?
Exactly!
How can they be doing everything right? No matter what happens it's no one's fault? No one should be held accountable?
No matter who the coach is, no matter who the GM is no matter what the latest example of their incompetence is this guy spends an inordinate amount of his time blindly defending them like a brainwashed Baghdad Bob.
It's scary and kind of sad in a way and also kind of hilariously funny.
Imagine what the conversation would be on BBI if one of the other NFC East teams who had the worst record in the NFL the past 3 years who had drafted Flowers, Beckham, Apple spent 3 picks on Baker and then saw him arrested for armed robbery.
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Another point: isn't going from no record to a planned robbery with associates and weapons kind of a big leap? I have no record of any kind and my first foray into crime if I ever did it would be maybe... shoplifting? That suggests that Baker had an active criminal past, that simply evaded the notice of UGa and the Giants
Baker had a secret life of crime?
Holy, fucking shit
What active criminal past?
Did you run out of darts to throw at Cashman yet? I heard they are in short supply due to COVID....
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Another point: isn't going from no record to a planned robbery with associates and weapons kind of a big leap? I have no record of any kind and my first foray into crime if I ever did it would be maybe... shoplifting? That suggests that Baker had an active criminal past, that simply evaded the notice of UGa and the Giants
Baker had a secret life of crime?
Holy, fucking shit
It’s not hard to imagine that this was his first attempt at illegally
I mean the poker game was probably illegal in and of itself.
For the record, I have no knowledge of Baker having a secret criminal past. But it's hard to believe an upstanding citizen would move straight to a serious, planned armed felony, isn't it?
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We already passed on Laremy Tunsil for Eli Apple due to character concerns. The sunk cost from that decision is absolutely enormous.
Not only did that stupid move leave us without a left tackle for the next 4 years, but we were forced to give a good free agent a great contract, and then also spend a top 5 pick acquiring another tackle. Not to mention putting an all-pro cb (Dominic Rodgers-Cromartie) in a specialty role just so our new draft pick can see some playing time.
It’s a dangerous precedent you’re setting here, saying that we should turn our eye on any player with mild character concerns. DeAndre Baker has full responsibility for his actions, being at UGA, surrounded by a successful program and football all year long. As a scout, it’s a tough battle to assume how a kid is going to behave once he gets back to his home town and the crowd he grew up with. Some draftees specifically get a house in the new city they’re in, just to avoid this situation altogether. DeAndre Baker had every resource at his disposal to make a better decision.
But I guess you would have taken Laremy Tunsil and passed on Baker, because... you have common sense right?
Exactly!
I don't feel smoking weed is a character flag. The Giants felt differently. I don't remember who I would've taken at our spot...full disclosure I really like Leonard Floyd but he was taken before us. But I also wanted them to draft Michael Thomas over Sterling Shepard and Justin Simmons over Darian Thompson.
But no, I wouldn't have had a problem with Laremy Tunsil whatsoever, because there are plenty of great citizens who fulfill their obligations at a high level who partake in a little of the devil's lettuce...and he was a college student, afterall.
But maybe I've been watching too much True Detective or shit like that
Usual tactic from FMIC here
But maybe I've been watching too much True Detective or shit like that
Ok now that's funny. It's also the most insane thing about this story...the witnesses that know you, part. You know, aside from being a ridiculously wealthy professional athlete throwing away all of your future income over...what are we talking...less than $100K?
How can they be doing everything right? No matter what happens it's no one's fault? No one should be held accountable?
No matter who the coach is, no matter who the GM is no matter what the latest example of their incompetence is this guy spends an inordinate amount of his time blindly defending them like a brainwashed Baghdad Bob.
It's scary and kind of sad in a way and also kind of hilariously funny.
Imagine what the conversation would be on BBI if one of the other NFC East teams who had the worst record in the NFL the past 3 years who had drafted Flowers, Beckham, Apple spent 3 picks on Baker and then saw him arrested for armed robbery.
It’s amazing
One poster accused him of being a paid shill, I actually hope that is the case because if not, good lord.
Usual tactic from FMIC here
He also said "active criminal past". My usual tactic stays pretty consistent - calling out moronic comments.
It's legal to play poker for money in home games in many states, under certain guidelines. In Connecticut, it's legal, "provided natural persons shall be exempt from prosecution and punishment under this subsection for any game, wager or transaction which is incidental to a bona fide social relationship, is participated in by natural persons only and in which no person is participating, directly or indirectly, in professional gambling."
Unlicensed high stakes games in Florida, definitely not, though.
That was funny
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or he's got a severe mental illness. What has to go wrong in your mind to spend the time and effort hour after hour, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year to defend an organization 100% of the time no matter what the subject is when that organization has the the worst record in the NFL for the past 3 years and 6 losing seasons out of their last 7.
How can they be doing everything right? No matter what happens it's no one's fault? No one should be held accountable?
No matter who the coach is, no matter who the GM is no matter what the latest example of their incompetence is this guy spends an inordinate amount of his time blindly defending them like a brainwashed Baghdad Bob.
It's scary and kind of sad in a way and also kind of hilariously funny.
Imagine what the conversation would be on BBI if one of the other NFC East teams who had the worst record in the NFL the past 3 years who had drafted Flowers, Beckham, Apple spent 3 picks on Baker and then saw him arrested for armed robbery.
It’s amazing
One poster accused him of being a paid shill, I actually hope that is the case because if not, good lord.
You do realize flipping that around makes you look pretgy bad too. I doubt they have paid critics, so you just waste a bunch of time criticizing from thread to thread regarding a team you supposedly root for.
Good Lord is appropriate there too, if not moreso. Think about it. You actively hate the team whose message board you frequent for hours a day.