“There was a battle in our building on whether we were going to take DeAndre or not,” a source privy to the Giants’ draft thinking told The Post, “because the story was he had to have his a– kicked every day to work hard at Georgia — to even go to practice. We knew that and we still drafted him, and from Day 1 it was like taking a guy in the first round that you had to teach nearly everything to.”
Let the CYA begin...
Again, I think blaming DG for this is absurd. There were a ton of red flags about a lot of dudes who go on to have great NFL careers. Who could foresee this kid going all OJ in Vegas?
Link - (
New Window )
Jackrabbit?
1) he would’ve been there at 37
2) we needed all the draft picks we could get
Then seriously he should be fired
Throw in lame brain l Williams deal and his signing of solder, j Stewart and that Jax OG and I have had enough
This is all within an 18 month period
Too hit or miss for me. I like most of his picks. But the ones u have a conviction on u better hit on
Jackrabbit?
It could be the fired SEC scout.
Makes me wonder if Judge would have vetoed the pick based on what he's said about the type of players he wants so far. If the rumours are true about Shurmur asking Gettleman to not get rid of OBJ because he would be able to handle him, maybe Shurmur was in favor of Baker saying that the coaching staff would be able to get through to him. Not saying that's what happened, but I wonder.
Still, none of those issues about work ethic would lead anyone to believe that Baker would have taken the actions he did. And the fact that he did this kind of tells me that he may have never improved his work ethic to become a better player.
Oh well, for the team, next man up and move on. Hope that the other investments in the backfield work out.
Does anyone else think.....these threads has gotten a bit nuts?
At least we know, the media doesnt lie.
Quality guy! Burn picks to get him.
I blame Gettelman for drafting every player he drafted.
What exactly is your obsession with assigning blame?
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What are the qualities he has shown that are in line with a late first round selection? Two or three games where he didn’t stink?
I blame Gettelman for drafting every player he drafted.
What exactly is your obsession with assigning blame?
I’m responding to the OP Who said you can’t blame Gettleman for the pick
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What are the qualities he has shown that are in line with a late first round selection? Two or three games where he didn’t stink?
I blame Gettelman for drafting every player he drafted.
What exactly is your obsession with assigning blame?
It’s something about Gettleman that gets people riled up. Reese drafted multitudes of crap for years and didn’t get half the flack that Gettleman gets on here from some people. I don’t get it.
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In comment 14904191 ron mexico said:
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What are the qualities he has shown that are in line with a late first round selection? Two or three games where he didn’t stink?
I blame Gettelman for drafting every player he drafted.
What exactly is your obsession with assigning blame?
It’s something about Gettleman that gets people riled up. Reese drafted multitudes of crap for years and didn’t get half the flack that Gettleman gets on here from some people. I don’t get it.
Reese got tons of crap and eventually got fired.
If you weren’t so fucking stupid you’d figure out how to find and post that yourself. But we all know your posting history, so we understand your inability to do that without asking for help
Jackrabbit?
Either of the scouts who got fired? Any of the coaches who got fired? Chris Mara?
Why the hell would it have to be Jenkins? We just had a regime change and a few other layoffs. You don't think there's some access to sour grapes fueled commentary?
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In comment 14904191 ron mexico said:
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What are the qualities he has shown that are in line with a late first round selection? Two or three games where he didn’t stink?
I blame Gettelman for drafting every player he drafted.
What exactly is your obsession with assigning blame?
It’s something about Gettleman that gets people riled up. Reese drafted multitudes of crap for years and didn’t get half the flack that Gettleman gets on here from some people. I don’t get it.
Didn't get half the flak? Reese still gets blamed by some posters for Gettleman's missteps even now!
Quality guy! Burn picks to get him.
...but you know what? That makes him SO MUCH FUCKING DUMBER for going out and robbing people at gunpoint after he already got to the league.
What a fucking moron. And yeah, this is on Gettleman. This wasn't Chad Jones getting in a car crash or Corey Ballentine getting shot. If there were red flags and Gettleman gambled, it's his fault.
So you are literally saying it is on Gettleman for Baker robbing a house full of people?
Just come out and say it - so we can point to how fucked up that take is.
How many players have whispers about them in college? How many of them commit armed robbery?
How many 1st rounders need to get their ass kicked to go to practice? Maybe we can avoid that next time. Let's ignore the armed robbery correlation and maybe just focus on how that type of behavior doesn't correlate with a successful player who gets a second contract.
Shurmur or even Mike Schula...those would make more sense.
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What a fucking moron. And yeah, this is on Gettleman. This wasn't Chad Jones getting in a car crash or Corey Ballentine getting shot. If there were red flags and Gettleman gambled, it's his fault.
So you are literally saying it is on Gettleman for Baker robbing a house full of people?
Just come out and say it - so we can point to how fucked up that take is.
How many players have whispers about them in college? How many of them commit armed robbery?
I'm surprised your still defending him. It wouldn't have been as bad if they stayed pat at 37, took Baker, and this still happened. And again, no one is placing any blame on DG or anyone else for the actions of Baker. The criticism was that the significant use of draft resources for a player that had these flags. Clean prospects you don't typically have to worry about them being motivated to play football, stay awake for meetings, or attend off-season virtual meetings, though, much less Rob people at gunpoint. And now we have confirmation that people in the building didn't like him for character reasons, and now they have been proven right.
DG obviously fell on the wrong side of that debate, what's so terrible about holding him accountable for that bad decision?
It's not being re-written. Sy mentioned it right after the draft, others did. It wasn't ba big topic on BBI, because the story was the Daniel Jones pick at the time, not the 3rd first rounder the Giants took last year. New franchise QB as the heir apparent to one of the greatest Giants' in history...that was the story. You could forgive many here for not discussing Baker in more detail at the time, but it was known by people, and it was known in the building, by the people whose job it is to know these things, not posters on the Corner Forum.
I mean, you guys have already decided the outcome of this before Baker has been put in custody. And saying that trading up to get such a risky player is a fireable offense.
When all is said and done, if Baker is gone, he's a failed pick. Let's not act like it was clear as day and Gettleman just ignored anything and anyone - which is exactly what is being said here.
1) It's a Giants draft pick'
2) We actually traded up
3) Because many people thought we were getting some kind of bargain
I'm always optimistic about picks, but it was an odd choice to me because we just traded a malcontent because culture.
It is revisionist history to act as if Baker was not only a risky pick, but that his character issues were obvious.
Where's Baker? - ( New Window )
I mean, you guys have already decided the outcome of this before Baker has been put in custody. And saying that trading up to get such a risky player is a fireable offense.
When all is said and done, if Baker is gone, he's a failed pick. Let's not act like it was clear as day and Gettleman just ignored anything and anyone - which is exactly what is being said here.
They were well known enough that the supposed best cover corner in the draft slid all the way to 30th overall.
Either the other teams knew more about Baker's flags, or they cared more about them, than the Giants did. But the top corner doesn't nearly tumble out of the first round with a clean scouting report.
BBI's awareness of those flags is not a requirement for the legitimacy of their existence.
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In comment 14904201 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 14904191 ron mexico said:
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What are the qualities he has shown that are in line with a late first round selection? Two or three games where he didn’t stink?
I blame Gettelman for drafting every player he drafted.
What exactly is your obsession with assigning blame?
It’s something about Gettleman that gets people riled up. Reese drafted multitudes of crap for years and didn’t get half the flack that Gettleman gets on here from some people. I don’t get it.
Reese got tons of crap and eventually got fired.
Reese got way more leash than Gettleman has gotten. It helps when you inherit someone else’s good team though. Unfortunately for Gettleman, Reese handed him a bunch of malcontent free agent signings, a head case diva in Beckham, and no cap room to work with to do much of anything.
It is revisionist history to act as if Baker was not only a risky pick, but that his character issues were obvious. Where's Baker? - ( New Window )
You understand sports journos at Bleacher Report aren't the bellwether for good scouting, right? Why do you keep ignoring that multiple sources, including Sy, made mention of his character flag, and now we have someone who was quoted, reportedly in the room, giving confirmation. This is not the hill to die on. It is possible to acknowledge the draft capital expended on a player like this was not a wise investment, and Sy openly questioned in it right after the draft.
-Bleacher Report
Weaknesses:
...
- Has some off-the-field character concerns
In speaking to team sources, they feel that Baker's tape and talent level should have him going in the No. 10-15 range of the first round, but they believe he will slide some because he has off-the-field issues and has not interviewed well with teams during the leadup to the 2019 NFL Draft.
-Walter Football
-Sy
Baker was the 1st CB drafted.
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In comment 14904204 eric2425ny said:
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In comment 14904201 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 14904191 ron mexico said:
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What are the qualities he has shown that are in line with a late first round selection? Two or three games where he didn’t stink?
I blame Gettelman for drafting every player he drafted.
What exactly is your obsession with assigning blame?
It’s something about Gettleman that gets people riled up. Reese drafted multitudes of crap for years and didn’t get half the flack that Gettleman gets on here from some people. I don’t get it.
Reese got tons of crap and eventually got fired.
Reese got way more leash than Gettleman has gotten. It helps when you inherit someone else’s good team though. Unfortunately for Gettleman, Reese handed him a bunch of malcontent free agent signings, a head case diva in Beckham, and no cap room to work with to do much of anything.
Here we go again with the cap room bullshit. Gettleman pissed away more contract value and dead money on his own bad signings than Reese did.
Reese got more leeway because he won two Super Bowls. And let's not forget that even the supposed architect of those teams if it wasn't Reese himself - Accorsi - recommended Reese over Gettleman as his successor. I guess Accorsi only gets credit for some of his own legacy.
Baker was the 1st CB drafted.
Does the top safety in the draft usually get drafted around the same spot as the top corner?
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post it again.
It is revisionist history to act as if Baker was not only a risky pick, but that his character issues were obvious. Where's Baker? - ( New Window )
You understand sports journos at Bleacher Report aren't the bellwether for good scouting, right? Why do you keep ignoring that multiple sources, including Sy, made mention of his character flag, and now we have someone who was quoted, reportedly in the room, giving confirmation. This is not the hill to die on. It is possible to acknowledge the draft capital expended on a player like this was not a wise investment, and Sy openly questioned in it right after the draft.
Who said anything about being the bellwether? I'm saying that in the past 24 hours, Baker's red flags went from being minor comments about attitude to being reflective of a huge character concern.
And I love when only part of what Sy said is referenced. His write-up on Baker pre-draft made no mention of red flags. Now you guys are acting as if Sy warned us all that this guy was a bad apple.
If you don't think there's exaggeration here, I really don't know what the fuck to tell you.
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mean that McKinney had a number of red flags that caused him to slip too?
Baker was the 1st CB drafted.
Does the top safety in the draft usually get drafted around the same spot as the top corner?
If there were CB hungry teams out there, you don't think one might draft a player other than Baker, or did everyone just shun him and pick someone else? Baker was the first CB picked - late in the first round. Did the other CB's have these terrible red flags too?
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What a fucking moron. And yeah, this is on Gettleman. This wasn't Chad Jones getting in a car crash or Corey Ballentine getting shot. If there were red flags and Gettleman gambled, it's his fault.
So you are literally saying it is on Gettleman for Baker robbing a house full of people?
Just come out and say it - so we can point to how fucked up that take is.
How many players have whispers about them in college? How many of them commit armed robbery?
Haha you're not getting a response from me until you answer back about the masks, and learn how to read a graph and admit you were 100% wrong about television contract revenue.
They interviewed him and had him in the room, and now there's a scout saying there were character concerns. And yeah, the point (which clearly went over your head) is that the other two incidents were incidental and not at the fault of the players I mentioned. This was all on Baker. Cool bleacher report article though.
Baker was the 1st CB drafted.
Sir, I'm struggling to pretend you are arguing in good faith.
Let's talk about the actual facts. And as we all know, and there are no hard and fast rules, but the top Safeties are typically taken after Corners, just as the top Guards are typically taken after the top Tackles. I know this is not a revelation to you, and I know that just because Player A was a bad pick and the first of his position to be taken in the 30s area of the draft, does not mean Player B is a bad pick as the same.
Let's not play dumb.
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In comment 14904269 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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post it again.
It is revisionist history to act as if Baker was not only a risky pick, but that his character issues were obvious. Where's Baker? - ( New Window )
You understand sports journos at Bleacher Report aren't the bellwether for good scouting, right? Why do you keep ignoring that multiple sources, including Sy, made mention of his character flag, and now we have someone who was quoted, reportedly in the room, giving confirmation. This is not the hill to die on. It is possible to acknowledge the draft capital expended on a player like this was not a wise investment, and Sy openly questioned in it right after the draft.
Who said anything about being the bellwether? I'm saying that in the past 24 hours, Baker's red flags went from being minor comments about attitude to being reflective of a huge character concern.
And I love when only part of what Sy said is referenced. His write-up on Baker pre-draft made no mention of red flags. Now you guys are acting as if Sy warned us all that this guy was a bad apple.
If you don't think there's exaggeration here, I really don't know what the fuck to tell you.
The flags pretty clearly paint Baker as having attitude and maturity shortcomings. Basically an entitled asshole - although "swagger" is the spin word used for part of that.
Should anyone have been able to predict this turn of events? Of course not. But it's not like Baker had distanced himself from any attitude and maturity concerns even before this, had he?
Where did you stand on Reese's selection of Eli Apple? Another entitled brat of a player and one whose selection has universally been blamed on Reese.
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In comment 14904279 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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mean that McKinney had a number of red flags that caused him to slip too?
Baker was the 1st CB drafted.
Does the top safety in the draft usually get drafted around the same spot as the top corner?
If there were CB hungry teams out there, you don't think one might draft a player other than Baker, or did everyone just shun him and pick someone else? Baker was the first CB picked - late in the first round. Did the other CB's have these terrible red flags too?
Now you're getting it! So you finally admit they should've taken a cleaner CB?
I also want to point out that many in the business had Murphy as the top CB. From my recollection, the top grade at the position was pretty evenly split. Sy was one that had Murphy with a slight edge over Baker.
That the Giants couldn't believe he was still available.
So why did he fall? Are we going to trot out that there were red flags regarding him if he blows a coverage next year?
You guys have been beating the drum all day that Baker was a known malcontent. Red flags abounded and we picked him. It's the way you justify blaming Gettleman here.
yet, that is revisionist of what happened. Where was the talk of draft day red flags all of last season?
Apple, to my knowledge, was a pretty clean player with elite measurables coming out of OSU. Forgiveable miss there, but Reese still sucked and there were way too many misses and bad decisions.
I didn't even blame Reese for Flowers. Both were immature guys who had physical skills to succeed. And they are glaring examples of why the draft was a crapshoot.
Apple's biggest red flag was his reliance on his Mom and his immaturity.
And again - you can say the same about several players each draft. Some work out, some don't. It is like you guys are looking for ideal character players.
Remember when tried that? It was derisively mocked as picking captains over people who could actually play football.
I don't think consistency is a strong point here
That the Giants couldn't believe he was still available.
So why did he fall? Are we going to trot out that there were red flags regarding him if he blows a coverage next year?
You guys have been beating the drum all day that Baker was a known malcontent. Red flags abounded and we picked him. It's the way you justify blaming Gettleman here.
yet, that is revisionist of what happened. Where was the talk of draft day red flags all of last season?
He fell because this was a loaded draft with more players with a first round grade than draft picks in the first round...players who play a more premium position than safety. That is why McKinney fell. Every situation is different and relative to the specific facts in that scenario.
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In comment 14904279 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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mean that McKinney had a number of red flags that caused him to slip too?
Baker was the 1st CB drafted.
Does the top safety in the draft usually get drafted around the same spot as the top corner?
If there were CB hungry teams out there, you don't think one might draft a player other than Baker, or did everyone just shun him and pick someone else? Baker was the first CB picked - late in the first round. Did the other CB's have these terrible red flags too?
There were injury concerns on Murphy and level-of-comp and technique concerns on Ya-Sin.
And I'm not saying Baker's flags at the time of the draft, as far as we know, were especially terrible, but they did exist. And for a GM who declared victory in his crusade against bad culture, the particular flags that Baker carried seem inconsistent with what he was trying to build. So did DG miss the flags or was his culture talk yet more lip service? At least one of those feels like it has to be true.
I'll await your response on my Eli Apple question before going further because I think that really gets to what feels like an obvious double standard here.
And again when he gave up in the play against the jets. Probably lots of other times as well.
Let’s not act like everyone is bringing this up for the first time today. It’s just not true.
That the Giants couldn't believe he was still available.
So why did he fall? Are we going to trot out that there were red flags regarding him if he blows a coverage next year?
You guys have been beating the drum all day that Baker was a known malcontent. Red flags abounded and we picked him. It's the way you justify blaming Gettleman here.
yet, that is revisionist of what happened. Where was the talk of draft day red flags all of last season?
Sy posted about the red flags for Baker before he was drafted and in the Giants review.
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In comment 14904283 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 14904279 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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mean that McKinney had a number of red flags that caused him to slip too?
Baker was the 1st CB drafted.
Does the top safety in the draft usually get drafted around the same spot as the top corner?
If there were CB hungry teams out there, you don't think one might draft a player other than Baker, or did everyone just shun him and pick someone else? Baker was the first CB picked - late in the first round. Did the other CB's have these terrible red flags too?
There were injury concerns on Murphy and level-of-comp and technique concerns on Ya-Sin.
And I'm not saying Baker's flags at the time of the draft, as far as we know, were especially terrible, but they did exist. And for a GM who declared victory in his crusade against bad culture, the particular flags that Baker carried seem inconsistent with what he was trying to build. So did DG miss the flags or was his culture talk yet more lip service? At least one of those feels like it has to be true.
I'll await your response on my Eli Apple question before going further because I think that really gets to what feels like an obvious double standard here.
Posted elsewhere but Sean Murphy-Bunting had a big year, made All-Rookie, and was taken at #39 by the Bucs. Not many talked about him as a high-2nd round talent but clearly the Bucs were on to something as they took him over a bunch of other more well-known guys at the position...were probably panned for taking him that high last year, also.
Dexter Lawrence was suspended for something the vast majority of players do, yet if he fails, I have no doubt you guys will pounce on PED use as a huge red flag and an example of bad culture.
Personally, I don't like hearing Gettleman talk about culture, but he's in a market with beat reporters and a lot of dumbass fans who ripped him for trading Beckham and that was his response. And even with picking some high character guys, it only takes one misstep to get the sharks looking for chum.
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ab out McKinney when we drafted him?
That the Giants couldn't believe he was still available.
So why did he fall? Are we going to trot out that there were red flags regarding him if he blows a coverage next year?
You guys have been beating the drum all day that Baker was a known malcontent. Red flags abounded and we picked him. It's the way you justify blaming Gettleman here.
yet, that is revisionist of what happened. Where was the talk of draft day red flags all of last season?
Sy posted about the red flags for Baker before he was drafted and in the Giants review.
He did not post about the red flags before the draft. His write-up is still up. Go look at it.
JFC, your profile says your 51 -- are you seriously 51 and this infantile/childlish?
My original point was more about the person's comment I replied to with regards to "free education". I was saying that if we're being real, recruited athletes do not give a fuck about school, they just want to get to the league. Which makes Baker even dumber, since he got to the league and then held up people at gunpoint.
Then I said, this was not incidental, like Chad Jones and Ballentine.
They are interviewing these players, and sources themselves are saying there was disagreement within the Giants own scouting dept.
Because this was not incidental, and because the implication here is that Gettleman took a risk and went against the grain, then yes, he is at fault.
Your stupid bleacher report proves nothing.
Bonus points:
Your anecdotal evidence about masks proves nothing, considering I linked a Gallup poll and stats based analysis of said opinions.
Your dipshit comment in the 3 sport thread was also stupid, since I wrote "TV revenues", got a link to overall revenue, then LOOKED at the link which proved me to be correct.
Are you following along now? Do you need it in smaller words?
If you're going to gamble on character at least make sure that he loves football and is willing to work. Guys like Tyreek Hill and Terrell Owens are examples of that. Honey Badger is an example of a guy like that who actually matured off the field and turned into a high character guy. Baker is probably a lost cause and always has been.
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ab out McKinney when we drafted him?
That the Giants couldn't believe he was still available.
So why did he fall? Are we going to trot out that there were red flags regarding him if he blows a coverage next year?
You guys have been beating the drum all day that Baker was a known malcontent. Red flags abounded and we picked him. It's the way you justify blaming Gettleman here.
yet, that is revisionist of what happened. Where was the talk of draft day red flags all of last season?
Sy posted about the red flags for Baker before he was drafted and in the Giants review.
I'll help you out. Point to these glaring red flags:
Grade: 83
Summary: Baker was a three year starter for the Bulldogs that progressively improved as a prospect from the beginning of 2017. The two-time all SEC defender (1st Team in 2018) brings the kind of confidence and swagger that can take on the numerous challenges of playing cornerback in the NFL. He can be left alone on an island and stick with anyone on all levels of the route tree as well as make plays on the ball like a receiver. His issues can be correctable, mainly the technique-based and mental ones. The lack of power presence can be an issue at times but in a league where contact is allowed less and less in coverage, the corners that can get the job done via instincts, agility, and speed stand out a bit more.
*Another safe pick here that may have a limited upside, but at this position you just want reliable. That is Baker is a nutshell. I love the competitive spirit, the swagger he shows on the outside. Do I trust him against a Michael Thomas on an island? Probably not. But at the end of the day that isn’t the job of a #1 corner on most teams. He can fit in to any coverage scheme and any role, right away.
NFL Comparison: Tre’Davious White / BUF
But I do appreciate the discussion of something being childish and infantile followed up by this mature comment:
Dude - you put the Capital A in Adult there.
Drafting him wasn't a tragedy, it was a calculated risk.
I personally have always felt the concept of "culture" was overblown and silly, so I wasn't upset at the pick. I was quite pleased the Giants focused on the secondary.
Now, in the context of management who made a point about fixing culture -- seemed a little off script.
If the Giants believe personnel is a big component in setting the culture they desire, they should take a second pass at their process. They held onto and acquired some dope last year.
I mean, he only says that Baker is a "safe pick".
Clearly, this was a prospect teetering on the edge of homicidal maniac that was well known to all.
If you're going to gamble on character at least make sure that he loves football and is willing to work. Guys like Tyreek Hill and Terrell Owens are examples of that. Honey Badger is an example of a guy like that who actually matured off the field and turned into a high character guy. Baker is probably a lost cause and always has been.
Honey Badger got in trouble for smoking pot. Nobody would bat an eye today.
TO was a loose cannon head case, but was a 3rd round pick anyway. Better to take a shot there.
Tyreek choked out his pregnant girlfriend. Clearly the worst of the three, and IMO, he's still a huge piece of shit, whether he's successful or not. He still had the child abuse issue around a year ago where (IIRC) he was talking about not only beating his child but his wife. So he's still human garbage to me, but yeah, I guess nobody cares when they're cheering for him or playing FF (myself included on FF draft day - not like I can change he's in the league)
That's actually worse than what Baker did IMO (and I assume everyone elses opinion).
Either way though, even if you gotta take your shot, when you're the GM, the results are on you. It's like the QB position - you get more credit when you win, and you get more shit when you lose.
I find it hard to believe anyone can look at DG's tenure and say that it's been a success.
No, sorry. Our respective replies crossed there.
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In comment 14904205 ron mexico said:
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In comment 14904204 eric2425ny said:
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In comment 14904201 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 14904191 ron mexico said:
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What are the qualities he has shown that are in line with a late first round selection? Two or three games where he didn’t stink?
I blame Gettelman for drafting every player he drafted.
What exactly is your obsession with assigning blame?
It’s something about Gettleman that gets people riled up. Reese drafted multitudes of crap for years and didn’t get half the flack that Gettleman gets on here from some people. I don’t get it.
Reese got tons of crap and eventually got fired.
Reese got way more leash than Gettleman has gotten. It helps when you inherit someone else’s good team though. Unfortunately for Gettleman, Reese handed him a bunch of malcontent free agent signings, a head case diva in Beckham, and no cap room to work with to do much of anything.
Here we go again with the cap room bullshit. Gettleman pissed away more contract value and dead money on his own bad signings than Reese did.
Reese got more leeway because he won two Super Bowls. And let's not forget that even the supposed architect of those teams if it wasn't Reese himself - Accorsi - recommended Reese over Gettleman as his successor. I guess Accorsi only gets credit for some of his own legacy.
Are you 100% sure he recommended Reese over Gettleman? I’m 99.9% sure no one on the board knows if that is true or not.
Clearly they were.
Is your argument, then, that DG doesn't deserve criticism for using three picks to get him? We all know teams take gambles on questionable guys. That's not the issue. The issue is where you take them and how many resources you expend to take them.
At want point is criticism fair? Because it seems to not be when a player who has known character issues is traded up for in the first round and expending not one, not two, but three picks when the room was divided on him because of said character issues.
Just trying to figure out what it would take for you to be cool saying DG fucked up.
But I do appreciate the discussion of something being childish and infantile followed up by this mature comment:
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Your stupid bleacher report proves nothing.
Dude - you put the Capital A in Adult there.
Siqqq burn brah.
Thanks for the bleacher report article though, really proves your point.
I'm sure they had as much insight, and did as much research writing that article as a billion dollar NFL franchise had conducted when they chose to draft him.
Fact of the matter is this: Sy, the bleacher report writer, any third party observers etc. did not get this guy in a room and interview him.
There's a source saying there was consternation at drafting him. Well, DG took a calculated risk and lost. That's STILL on him. Or, you know, he could say, "I take responsibility for nothing". As if he where the buck stops when constructing the roster.
Your argument is "who could have seen this coming?"
The answer is "the people interviewing him before giving him millions of dollars after trading up to pick him?"
And this thread is about the fact that there was dissent in the room.
On a more general point, I'll never understand individuals who think that people make up these quotes for clicks or fame or whatever. If someone had an axe to grind, this article wouldn't come out late on a Friday like this.
The point I was really trying to make is that there is actual character and football character. Some guys are flat out pieces of shit off the field but they're driven, hardworkers that love football. Within the football and locker room bubble, they're actually good. Ray Lewis is the ultimate example there. We all now about his off the field history but his "football character" is pristine.
Where the Giants missed the mark is that they rolled the dice on a guy and within a year, he's proven that lacks both forms of character. That's not a lot of time at all. It's a bad bad miss.
Clearly they were.
Is your argument, then, that DG doesn't deserve criticism for using three picks to get him? We all know teams take gambles on questionable guys. That's not the issue. The issue is where you take them and how many resources you expend to take them.
At want point is criticism fair? Because it seems to not be when a player who has known character issues is traded up for in the first round and expending not one, not two, but three picks when the room was divided on him because of said character issues.
Just trying to figure out what it would take for you to be cool saying DG fucked up.
my argument is that what Baker reportedly did has caused people to exaggerate his draft profile. We keep haring about Sy "repeatedly" calling out the red flags. I think he mentioned them once, and not if the pre-draft profile. when Baker was selected, there wasn't controversy over him having a lot of question marks.
I'm still trying to figure out why there is such a focus and importance on saying that Gettleman fucked up? There's as much talk about Gettleman as there is about Baker. Does Lynch carry the stigma of Foster? Did he ever? Does Hurney carry the stigma of Carruth? Did he ever?
Just as you are trying to apparently figure out some things, I want to know what the obsession is with focusing on the GM here. And why are a lot of you exaggerating things to make it seem like Baker wasn't just a risky pick, but that it was widely known? If it was so widely know, why did Sy call it a safe pick and that he was reliable?
What is the end goal here of rewriting history?
We got those two rings, I don't give a shit who was the architect or not. There we moves made that season and that year - Kawikia Mitchelle, Domenik Hixon, that entire draft -- that made huge differences.
Reese trailed off at the end, but anyone who can say DG has been remotely as good for the Giants is simply not being objective.
The point I was really trying to make is that there is actual character and football character. Some guys are flat out pieces of shit off the field but they're driven, hardworkers that love football. Within the football and locker room bubble, they're actually good. Ray Lewis is the ultimate example there. We all now about his off the field history but his "football character" is pristine.
Where the Giants missed the mark is that they rolled the dice on a guy and within a year, he's proven that lacks both forms of character. That's not a lot of time at all. It's a bad bad miss.
For sure, I hear you. No disagreements there.
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Are you 100% sure he recommended Reese over Gettleman? I’m 99.9% sure no one on the board knows if that is true or not.
It is true. I don't remember exactly where but I have seen a clip of Accorsi himself saying he told Mara to promote Reese and explaining why.
We got those two rings, I don't give a shit who was the architect or not. There we moves made that season and that year - Kawikia Mitchelle, Domenik Hixon, that entire draft -- that made huge differences.
Reese trailed off at the end, but anyone who can say DG has been remotely as good for the Giants is simply not being objective.
Reese is not responsible for that '07 team. And he was objectively terrible for almost the entirety of his tenure as GM. It wasn't trailing off at the end, it was excruciatingly poor performance, like bottom of the league. He didn't draft a legitimate good NFL player after the 2nd round since arguably Mario Manningham in 2008. And most of the 2nd rounders, and 1st rounders, for that matter, weren't good picks, either. Fuck yes I'd take DG over Reese any day of the week.
DG has already surpassed him just with grabbing Slayton in the 5th. All you have to do is look at the all-time Giants draft picks list on pro football reference. If you can stomach it.
But please, don't fluff him up any more than he deserves. Mykelle Thompson, basketball on grass, the JPP of tight ends, and Darian freaking Thompson over Justin Simmons.
For the record I was elated when he took Reuben Randle, but I also wanted Aaron Donald, Michael Thomas over Shepard, and the aforementioned Simmons where we could've had them.
Quote:
Is your argument that these character issues weren't known by the Giants, other organizations, and/or the scouting community on draft day?
Clearly they were.
Is your argument, then, that DG doesn't deserve criticism for using three picks to get him? We all know teams take gambles on questionable guys. That's not the issue. The issue is where you take them and how many resources you expend to take them.
At want point is criticism fair? Because it seems to not be when a player who has known character issues is traded up for in the first round and expending not one, not two, but three picks when the room was divided on him because of said character issues.
Just trying to figure out what it would take for you to be cool saying DG fucked up.
my argument is that what Baker reportedly did has caused people to exaggerate his draft profile. We keep haring about Sy "repeatedly" calling out the red flags. I think he mentioned them once, and not if the pre-draft profile. when Baker was selected, there wasn't controversy over him having a lot of question marks.
I'm still trying to figure out why there is such a focus and importance on saying that Gettleman fucked up? There's as much talk about Gettleman as there is about Baker. Does Lynch carry the stigma of Foster? Did he ever? Does Hurney carry the stigma of Carruth? Did he ever?
Just as you are trying to apparently figure out some things, I want to know what the obsession is with focusing on the GM here. And why are a lot of you exaggerating things to make it seem like Baker wasn't just a risky pick, but that it was widely known? If it was so widely know, why did Sy call it a safe pick and that he was reliable?
What is the end goal here of rewriting history?
You’re so fucking dumb. Your entire argument is based on Joe Public’s Opinion of Baker which means absolutely dick.
This link sites a source inside of the organization (or at least at some point). If true, and the organization traded up for a guy they knew had issues, this doesn’t look good and management deserves criticism.
And to be clear, this has nothing to do with DG foreseeing Baker robbing people at a poker game, which is undoubtedly the shitty straw man point you continue to reply with. It’s about burning several assets to trade up for a risky football player when the organization is not in a position to assume that risk.
Makes me wonder if Judge would have vetoed the pick based on what he's said about the type of players he wants so far. If the rumours are true about Shurmur asking Gettleman to not get rid of OBJ because he would be able to handle him, maybe Shurmur was in favor of Baker saying that the coaching staff would be able to get through to him. Not saying that's what happened, but I wonder.
Still, none of those issues about work ethic would lead anyone to believe that Baker would have taken the actions he did. And the fact that he did this kind of tells me that he may have never improved his work ethic to become a better player.
Oh well, for the team, next man up and move on. Hope that the other investments in the backfield work out.
Excellent post. Shurmur was an epic failure. How did they ever hire that schmuck.
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If anyone would go back in time and take DG over Reese after Accorsci retired, you're batshit crazy.
We got those two rings, I don't give a shit who was the architect or not. There we moves made that season and that year - Kawikia Mitchelle, Domenik Hixon, that entire draft -- that made huge differences.
Reese trailed off at the end, but anyone who can say DG has been remotely as good for the Giants is simply not being objective.
Reese is not responsible for that '07 team. And he was objectively terrible for almost the entirety of his tenure as GM. It wasn't trailing off at the end, it was excruciatingly poor performance, like bottom of the league. He didn't draft a legitimate good NFL player after the 2nd round since arguably Mario Manningham in 2008. And most of the 2nd rounders, and 1st rounders, for that matter, weren't good picks, either. Fuck yes I'd take DG over Reese any day of the week.
DG has already surpassed him just with grabbing Slayton in the 5th. All you have to do is look at the all-time Giants draft picks list on pro football reference. If you can stomach it.
But please, don't fluff him up any more than he deserves. Mykelle Thompson, basketball on grass, the JPP of tight ends, and Darian freaking Thompson over Justin Simmons.
For the record I was elated when he took Reuben Randle, but I also wanted Aaron Donald, Michael Thomas over Shepard, and the aforementioned Simmons where we could've had them.
Thomas over Shepard is a legit beef and I agree with you there. Donald over OBJ (or Martin who I wanted) would have worked out better, but I think it was more "the catch" that fucked OBJ 's head up more than anything.
But he did take Nicks over Britt (I'm a Rutgers homer and Britt actually was great till he got hurt, but that was the right call).
And he drafted the 07 draft class. You can't tell me that it was still all Accorsci in '11.
He did hit on some late round guys who were solid and still in the league. Kennard,
But it's not fair to say most of his 1st and 2nd round picks sucked. That's just not accurate. In fact, I think the bigger issue is that Reese was great at the beginning of his tenure, then started betting on potential too much.
Take a look at the draft history. He was pretty good in the 1st couple rounds. You're always gonna have a Marvin Austin and what not, but all things considered, there are a lot of players in those 1st 2 rounds.
I'm not saying we should have kept Reese. I'm just saying that people are acting like he was the worst GM of all time. He wasn't. His biggest problem was his inability to fix the OL, no matter what he tried. Pugh, Richburg, Flowers.... just awful. David Baas signing, Geoff Schwartz.
The dude could not fix the line. To be fair though, Gettleman hasn't ben able to either.
NYG year by year draft history - ( New Window )
Quote:
In comment 14904353 Sonic Youth said:
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If anyone would go back in time and take DG over Reese after Accorsci retired, you're batshit crazy.
We got those two rings, I don't give a shit who was the architect or not. There we moves made that season and that year - Kawikia Mitchelle, Domenik Hixon, that entire draft -- that made huge differences.
Reese trailed off at the end, but anyone who can say DG has been remotely as good for the Giants is simply not being objective.
Reese is not responsible for that '07 team. And he was objectively terrible for almost the entirety of his tenure as GM. It wasn't trailing off at the end, it was excruciatingly poor performance, like bottom of the league. He didn't draft a legitimate good NFL player after the 2nd round since arguably Mario Manningham in 2008. And most of the 2nd rounders, and 1st rounders, for that matter, weren't good picks, either. Fuck yes I'd take DG over Reese any day of the week.
DG has already surpassed him just with grabbing Slayton in the 5th. All you have to do is look at the all-time Giants draft picks list on pro football reference. If you can stomach it.
But please, don't fluff him up any more than he deserves. Mykelle Thompson, basketball on grass, the JPP of tight ends, and Darian freaking Thompson over Justin Simmons.
For the record I was elated when he took Reuben Randle, but I also wanted Aaron Donald, Michael Thomas over Shepard, and the aforementioned Simmons where we could've had them.
Thomas over Shepard is a legit beef and I agree with you there. Donald over OBJ (or Martin who I wanted) would have worked out better, but I think it was more "the catch" that fucked OBJ 's head up more than anything.
But he did take Nicks over Britt (I'm a Rutgers homer and Britt actually was great till he got hurt, but that was the right call).
And he drafted the 07 draft class. You can't tell me that it was still all Accorsci in '11.
He did hit on some late round guys who were solid and still in the league. Kennard,
But it's not fair to say most of his 1st and 2nd round picks sucked. That's just not accurate. In fact, I think the bigger issue is that Reese was great at the beginning of his tenure, then started betting on potential too much.
Take a look at the draft history. He was pretty good in the 1st couple rounds. You're always gonna have a Marvin Austin and what not, but all things considered, there are a lot of players in those 1st 2 rounds.
I'm not saying we should have kept Reese. I'm just saying that people are acting like he was the worst GM of all time. He wasn't. His biggest problem was his inability to fix the OL, no matter what he tried. Pugh, Richburg, Flowers.... just awful. David Baas signing, Geoff Schwartz.
The dude could not fix the line. To be fair though, Gettleman hasn't ben able to either. NYG year by year draft history - ( New Window )
Reese was a terrible GM. The draft isn’t about 1-2nd round picks, it’s about drafting more quality players in total than your competition. He had one good year and the rest was either well below average or trash. His drafts over the duration of his tenure are the primary reason why this team went from being a yearly contender to a bottom dweller. The talent got old and there was nothing in the pipeline to reload with.
Yeah, I (hope) he found something in Slayton (no credit for Reese on Cruz?) -- But DG on NYG hasn't been a mid-round savant.
And also, Reese had a much better eye for FAs than DG.
What matters is if Gettleman and the Giants knew, and their level of comfort drafting him. I'm assuming Gettleman has better sources than Sy. I assume he knew all the whispers and the context.
In the small sample size of a year, he dogged it on the field, dogged it in preparations, and was reportedly exhibiting the same behavior to some extent this year, before he went bananas and robbed a poker game.
If culture and character are a big priority to this GM, sounds like the vetting process needs some work.
One of the really admirable characteristics Gettleman displays is the ability to admit his mistakes. I'm confident they'll tighten up their evaluations.
What matters is if Gettleman and the Giants knew, and their level of comfort drafting him. I'm assuming Gettleman has better sources than Sy. I assume he knew all the whispers and the context.
The people quoting and deferring to Sy on the character stuff just don't get it. Sy has better industry contacts than 99% of us reading this board but he'll probably be the first to tell you that he isn't the authority on those matters. The worst organization in football has exponentially more intel on prospect intangibles than Sy.
Obviously Gettleman had the information and chose to draft Baker. Obviously some of the smoke about his work ethic was fire.
Trading up and picking Baker at the end of the first round seems like a mistake. Not a tragedy, but not inconsequential. A pretty bad, but not franchise shattering mistake.
I don't believe a perfectly reasonable kid sought dangerous revenge, guns drawn, and kill orders, out of nowhere.
He's either a really dangerous guy, or this isn't true.
If it's the former, I really hope the Giants take a strong look into their vetting process.
I don't believe a perfectly reasonable kid sought dangerous revenge, guns drawn, and kill orders, out of nowhere.
He's either a really dangerous guy, or this isn't true.
If it's the former, I really hope the Giants take a strong look into their vetting process.
DG ultimately bears responsibility for the wasted picks it took to land Baker.
If folks missed it - clearly Baker was/is mega talented.
But there are lots of talented guys I think who don't get the ring because of attitude, commitment, work ethic. This is a basic universal truth.
Hopefully at least one of the recently fired scouts was "the one" or one of a few scouts for the South East that was supposed to make the determination on Baker's character issues. Obviously some or another individual completely whiffed on vetting Baker. Hopefully that individual is no longer a NY Giants scout!
If DG was relying on someone else's work to vet Baker, then you don't hang DG for the pick. Especially if DG has since removed the scout who blew this evaluation.
However, it is a big leap to be perhaps "lazy, immature, lacking strong work ethic" at age 22-23 and being simply "crazy" or just plain evil. We don't have all the facts yet and my prayer is still that somehow this was blown out of proportion and the case is dropped. All I can do is hope cause if he is facing a real trial for real assaults and robbery he will be going to jail and all is lost. team can't catch a break with draft picks, can it?
I really thought Baker in his 2nd year would "step up" alongside Bradlee and the rest of the young, talented secondary and give us a strong defense. Now that is all POOF.
Every once in a while you get an NFL player or coach who when being interviewed, essentially implies that most fans and reporters have no clue and should just STFU. Then, you read some of the comments made on this website and you just have to agree with that sentiment.
I mean, you guys have already decided the outcome of this before Baker has been put in custody. And saying that trading up to get such a risky player is a fireable offense.
When all is said and done, if Baker is gone, he's a failed pick. Let's not act like it was clear as day and Gettleman just ignored anything and anyone - which is exactly what is being said here.
So, no you don't blame Dave for this idiot deciding he wants to be a gangsta, but it is not wrong to question Dave's pick spend for a guy who struggled in the self-motivation and learning department and was dropping in the draft as a result.
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isn't 100% accurate. But unless it's a total fabrication cooked up by 5 different people and/or a Miramar police conspiracy against no name NFL players, it's probably partially true. Reading that thing, the best case half truth is that it wasn't pre-meditated and Baker lost his cool after busting in a poker game...then he flipped the table, pulled out a semi automatic weapon and robbed people in the heat of the moment.
Which means he will be spending at least part of his rookie contract time in prison, and if he doesn't your favorite commissioner and mine will be suspending him for violations of the conduct policy.
Gene, wasn’t the trade-up a net loss of two picks given that the 3rd pick was a swap with the other team?
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That was privy to the Giants’ draft thinking last year?
Jackrabbit?
Either of the scouts who got fired? Any of the coaches who got fired? Chris Mara?
Why the hell would it have to be Jenkins? We just had a regime change and a few other layoffs. You don't think there's some access to sour grapes fueled commentary?
My God, take a chill pill Francis, I was mocking the atypical unnamed "sources" that gets thrown around with no proof by most of these hacks
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In comment 14904158 montanagiant said:
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That was privy to the Giants’ draft thinking last year?
Jackrabbit?
Either of the scouts who got fired? Any of the coaches who got fired? Chris Mara?
Why the hell would it have to be Jenkins? We just had a regime change and a few other layoffs. You don't think there's some access to sour grapes fueled commentary?
My God, take a chill pill Francis, I was mocking the atypical unnamed "sources" that gets thrown around with no proof by most of these hacks
And I highly doubt that Jenkins was involved at all in any kind of draft strategy
I'm guessing Betcher pounded the table. Didn't seem like a DG guy, but Betcher probably figured he got something out of Honey Badger.
Sinorice
Deandre
And weirdly enough they all had personality issues. Shockey too
Sinorice
Deandre
And weirdly enough they all had personality issues. Shockey too
Well there's one helluva counter argument and example named Eli Manning.
How'd he work out?
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Kehl
Sinorice
Deandre
And weirdly enough they all had personality issues. Shockey too
Well there's one helluva counter argument and example named Eli Manning.
How'd he work out?
Technically not a trade up.
I did discuss Baker's off-field question marks several times in threads. My report that I post here (which is about a third of my actual final reports) did not touch on those issues too much. I did, right after he was traded up for and taken over other corners that I had graded slightly higher or close-to, state I was surprised NYG took him in that manner. They themselves were preaching the concept of building a locker room full of quality young men on the straight and narrow. That was the end of my point.
In no way would I ever forecast something like this. In no way did I think Baker would be getting arrested on a potential felony charge a year in to his career. That was never my point. Again, my point was that Baker was NOT a clean prospect when it came to character. And not only did NYG use a 1st on him, but they traded up for him. It simply just rubbed me the wrong way....saying one thing and doing another. That is all.
I mean, you guys have already decided the outcome of this before Baker has been put in custody. And saying that trading up to get such a risky player is a fireable offense.
When all is said and done, if Baker is gone, he's a failed pick. Let's not act like it was clear as day and Gettleman just ignored anything and anyone - which is exactly what is being said here.
It is very strange that little was said on this board about Gettleman trading up to take Baker up until now, and suddenly, all of these “fire Gettleman poster” are all in full force. It’s so plainly a reflexive, moronic reaction. The Gettleman hate is just pure blindness without any thought of the situation. These people are just trying to confabulate the “laziness and dumb“ red flags with this incident. I have a question for all of these people. Could you have predicted that this would’ve happened?
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=590246&show_all=1
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=590078
Gutless baker deserves to be benched - ( New Window )
We got those two rings, I don't give a shit who was the architect or not. There we moves made that season and that year - Kawikia Mitchelle, Domenik Hixon, that entire draft -- that made huge differences.
Reese trailed off at the end, but anyone who can say DG has been remotely as good for the Giants is simply not being objective.
I think all the shitting on Reese is quite fair
Moving up to get the firth year option for a CB is smart. The player is another story.
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=590246&show_all=1
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=590078
Gutless baker deserves to be benched - ( New Window )
In the last 3 days I've not seen many if any posts claiming Baker was an unequivocal bad pick or a massive tragic risk Gettleman should have avoided at all costs.
What I have seen is a resurfacing of some of the sentiments expressed before the draft and during the season -- that Baker had work ethic issues.
As the threads you've linked show, it was an issue and many posters saw it.
I'm not sure why certain posters feel the need to exaggerate. It wasn't an unknown issue, it's not after the fact criticism, and very few if any feel like it was a mortal sin to draft him.
Hopefully at least one of the recently fired scouts was "the one" or one of a few scouts for the South East that was supposed to make the determination on Baker's character issues. Obviously some or another individual completely whiffed on vetting Baker. Hopefully that individual is no longer a NY Giants scout!
If DG was relying on someone else's work to vet Baker, then you don't hang DG for the pick. Especially if DG has since removed the scout who blew this evaluation.
Agree above, Blue Lou:
Re the timing of 'the' scout's firing (if indeed the one covering UGa): my question is whether this occurred once they saw that Baker wasn't even logging in to the virtual team meetings, before Miami.
And to your universal truth, robbie summed it up well in the earlier thread:
Quote:
In comment 14904416 AcesUp said:
Quote:
isn't 100% accurate. But unless it's a total fabrication cooked up by 5 different people and/or a Miramar police conspiracy against no name NFL players, it's probably partially true. Reading that thing, the best case half truth is that it wasn't pre-meditated and Baker lost his cool after busting in a poker game...then he flipped the table, pulled out a semi automatic weapon and robbed people in the heat of the moment.
Which means he will be spending at least part of his rookie contract time in prison, and if he doesn't your favorite commissioner and mine will be suspending him for violations of the conduct policy.
Gene, wasn’t the trade-up a net loss of two picks given that the 3rd pick was a swap with the other team?
Not from what I found. This is how the trade is described on NFL.com:
"Giants receive:
» 2019 first-round pick (No. 30; select CB Deandre Baker)
Seahawks receive:
» 2019 second-round pick (No. 37; trade to Panthers)
» 2019 fourth-round pick (No. 132; select S Ugochukwu Amadi)
» 2019 fifth-round pick (No. 142; select LB Ben Burr-Kirven)"
Lonk - ( New Window )
In the context of draft language the Giants used 2 picks to "move up."
But in the context of reality the Giants trade 3 picks for 1 pick.
There's something in there about the perception of the trading costing more or less to defend one view or another I think.
DG likes to say everything is collaborative when it doesn't work out. that's his go to scapegoat move
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What a fucking moron. And yeah, this is on Gettleman. This wasn't Chad Jones getting in a car crash or Corey Ballentine getting shot. If there were red flags and Gettleman gambled, it's his fault.
So you are literally saying it is on Gettleman for Baker robbing a house full of people?
Just come out and say it - so we can point to how fucked up that take is.
How many players have whispers about them in college? How many of them commit armed robbery?
Come on Fats, that’s not what the poster said at all. It’s fine to defend DG, many claims against him are over the top, but you don’t think, if the stories about significant red flags is true, that DG doesn’t deserve criticism for not only drafting him, but trading up too do so?
The lengths some will go to polish DG’s pipe is unreal.
Even if it was Shurmur or Bettcher, their hiring was also a mistake. So either way you slice it it's a reflection on the GM.
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If anyone would go back in time and take DG over Reese after Accorsci retired, you're batshit crazy.
We got those two rings, I don't give a shit who was the architect or not. There we moves made that season and that year - Kawikia Mitchelle, Domenik Hixon, that entire draft -- that made huge differences.
Reese trailed off at the end, but anyone who can say DG has been remotely as good for the Giants is simply not being objective.
I think all the shitting on Reese is quite fair
I'm confused. Are we blaming Reese for drafting Baker?
Quote:
Is your argument that these character issues weren't known by the Giants, other organizations, and/or the scouting community on draft day?
Clearly they were.
Is your argument, then, that DG doesn't deserve criticism for using three picks to get him? We all know teams take gambles on questionable guys. That's not the issue. The issue is where you take them and how many resources you expend to take them.
At want point is criticism fair? Because it seems to not be when a player who has known character issues is traded up for in the first round and expending not one, not two, but three picks when the room was divided on him because of said character issues.
Just trying to figure out what it would take for you to be cool saying DG fucked up.
my argument is that what Baker reportedly did has caused people to exaggerate his draft profile. We keep haring about Sy "repeatedly" calling out the red flags. I think he mentioned them once, and not if the pre-draft profile. when Baker was selected, there wasn't controversy over him having a lot of question marks.
I'm still trying to figure out why there is such a focus and importance on saying that Gettleman fucked up? There's as much talk about Gettleman as there is about Baker. Does Lynch carry the stigma of Foster? Did he ever? Does Hurney carry the stigma of Carruth? Did he ever?
Just as you are trying to apparently figure out some things, I want to know what the obsession is with focusing on the GM here. And why are a lot of you exaggerating things to make it seem like Baker wasn't just a risky pick, but that it was widely known? If it was so widely know, why did Sy call it a safe pick and that he was reliable?
What is the end goal here of rewriting history?
Do you still contend it was a good/ok pick and just chalk it up to bad luck?
Honest question
Do you still contend it was a good/ok pick and just chalk it up to bad luck?
Honest question
Quote:
Does that mean you give Gettleman a pass for picking him? Even in light of the fact that he skipped OTAs and reportedly had to be prodded all year last year?
Do you still contend it was a good/ok pick and just chalk it up to bad luck?
Honest question
The point is, that argument has little to do with this isolated incident and neither do the other examples you cited. I have no problem arguing he was a bad pick. But, calling g for Gettleman's head based solely or primarily on this incident is ludicrous.
I honestly have not seen many post at all calling for his head because of this. There may be a couple post when this first came out but that was about it.
I personally do not think gettleman should be fired for this and I don’t know if any other poster who holds that stance.
However, it is a big leap to be perhaps "lazy, immature, lacking strong work ethic" at age 22-23 and being simply "crazy" or just plain evil. We don't have all the facts yet and my prayer is still that somehow this was blown out of proportion and the case is dropped. All I can do is hope cause if he is facing a real trial for real assaults and robbery he will be going to jail and all is lost. team can't catch a break with draft picks, can it?
I really thought Baker in his 2nd year would "step up" alongside Bradlee and the rest of the young, talented secondary and give us a strong defense. Now that is all POOF.
I don't think he's crazy or evil, just dumb. Which apparently has been the case forever. If he was some Joe Scmo and got stiffed for 70k this would make a lot more sense.
I did discuss Baker's off-field question marks several times in threads. My report that I post here (which is about a third of my actual final reports) did not touch on those issues too much. I did, right after he was traded up for and taken over other corners that I had graded slightly higher or close-to, state I was surprised NYG took him in that manner. They themselves were preaching the concept of building a locker room full of quality young men on the straight and narrow. That was the end of my point.
In no way would I ever forecast something like this. In no way did I think Baker would be getting arrested on a potential felony charge a year in to his career. That was never my point. Again, my point was that Baker was NOT a clean prospect when it came to character. And not only did NYG use a 1st on him, but they traded up for him. It simply just rubbed me the wrong way....saying one thing and doing another. That is all.
And this is exactly my issue with it. Preaching culture every other word and than drafting a guy like Baker. The only reason it didn't get more shine was because he was our 3rd pick and we drafted a QB that year. I expect the GM to lie, but something like that it just crushes the credibility of anything you say and the press is going to respond in kind. I seriously think this is going to be pretty damaging for how much power DG has moving forward. Starting to think this becomes more of Judge's show, possibly before they really wanted to make the transition.
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=590246&show_all=1
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=590078
Gutless baker deserves to be benched - ( New Window )
Like I said, little discussion. Yeah. 3 threads. No one was asking for Gettleman's firing on the account of Baker before. BTW....I enjoyed the readings. Now, can you answer the question? Did you know Baker was going to attempt armed robbery?
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Happy reading
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=590246&show_all=1
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=590078
Gutless baker deserves to be benched - ( New Window )
Like I said, little discussion. Yeah. 3 threads. No one was asking for Gettleman's firing on the account of Baker before. BTW....I enjoyed the readings. Now, can you answer the question? Did you know Baker was going to attempt armed robbery?
Not saying Gettleman is not responsible for the pick; however, he took the chance and made the pick. Baker didn't look good the first half of the season, but he showed improvement in the second half of the season. I still don't understand the reflexive response of posters wanting him fired.
Quote:
Happy reading
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=590246&show_all=1
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=590078
Gutless baker deserves to be benched - ( New Window )
Like I said, little discussion. Yeah. 3 threads. No one was asking for Gettleman's firing on the account of Baker before. BTW....I enjoyed the readings. Now, can you answer the question? Did you know Baker was going to attempt armed robbery?
You’re missing the point. People in the organization knew about his character issues and expressed concerns about drafting him. Character concerns that would potentially prevent him from realizing his potential on the field.
Does that mean they should’ve foreseen an armed robbery? No, but when you’re entering year 2 of a complete roster overhaul you should probably steer clear of trading up for risky football players.
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In comment 14904617 ron mexico said:
Quote:
Happy reading
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=590246&show_all=1
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=590078
Gutless baker deserves to be benched - ( New Window )
Like I said, little discussion. Yeah. 3 threads. No one was asking for Gettleman's firing on the account of Baker before. BTW....I enjoyed the readings. Now, can you answer the question? Did you know Baker was going to attempt armed robbery?
Not saying Gettleman is not responsible for the pick; however, he took the chance and made the pick. Baker didn't look good the first half of the season, but he showed improvement in the second half of the season. I still don't understand the reflexive response of posters wanting him fired.
Once again, barely anybody is calling for him to be fired.