Dalvin Tomlinson

and provides next to zero pass rush. he is by no means a bust or a bad pick, but i question the value of using a second rounder on a DT who is only a run stopper and not a dominant one

and as you think about it, Tomlinson should be a leader on this defense. If you follow his story when he got drafted he's easy to root for. He's battled his way playing basically 3 different positions in 3 years and by the end of the year, he was the best defensive lineman on the team.

And I didn't know that Judge recruited him to come to Alabama so there was a connection there already.

I don't think he is going to be a Pro Bowl type player. But he should be a very solid player on what should be a tough, rugged, blue collar type DL that Giants fans remember we used to have.

If the Giants are intent on signing Williams long-term, and they're sold on Lawrence, how much do you want to pay another DT who's primarily a run-stuffer?

see who has the better season in the new scheme and whose price tag is more reasonable, let the other walk for a comp pick. If both play great then maybe you invest in both, but that seems like it will create a very expensive DL.

and we keep him in the plan

unless it's VERY cheap. he's a rotational run stuffing DT who offers little to no pass rush.

he can play the nose ok, but lawrence is here to play the nose.

you can find run stuffing d-lineman cheap

In comment 14904960 GiantsFan84 said:

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unless it's VERY cheap. he's a rotational run stuffing DT who offers little to no pass rush. he can play the nose ok, but lawrence is here to play the nose. you can find run stuffing d-lineman cheap

defensive end in a 3-4 is completely different than in a 4-3..

his job is to stop the run and eat up blockers, his focal point is not pass rush, his position is very important in a 3-4

that are severely undervaluing Tomlinson

about 12-13 mil on average?

I would certainly value him as much as our new starting MLB, so 3yr 30 mil would be very reasonable deal to me.

Playing cards

In comment 14904969 robbieballs2003 said:

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that are severely undervaluing Tomlinson

I completely agree with this. In fact, I think DT is a position that is consistently undervalued on BBI. Most fans don't seem to appreciate the importance of DT (even a true run stuffer) until we have a guy like Marcus Kuhn or the great Jonas Seawright starting for us.

In comment 14904999 Scuzzlebutt said:

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In comment 14904969 robbieballs2003 said: Quote: that are severely undervaluing Tomlinson I completely agree with this. In fact, I think DT is a position that is consistently undervalued on BBI. Most fans don't seem to appreciate the importance of DT (even a true run stuffer) until we have a guy like Marcus Kuhn or the great Jonas Seawright starting for us.

Undervalued on BBI? Follow the leader! Among the myriad list of bad moves by Jerry Reese, and that list is long, deep and defining, letting Linval Joseph walk when a reasonable contract would have kept him in Blue rather than freeing up cap space for DRC, that makes be stood out as utter folly.

This phone spell checker is spawn of the devil.

That MOVE stood out...

In comment 14905003 BlueLou'sBack said:

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In comment 14904999 Scuzzlebutt said: Quote: In comment 14904969 robbieballs2003 said: Quote: that are severely undervaluing Tomlinson I completely agree with this. In fact, I think DT is a position that is consistently undervalued on BBI. Most fans don't seem to appreciate the importance of DT (even a true run stuffer) until we have a guy like Marcus Kuhn or the great Jonas Seawright starting for us. Undervalued on BBI? Follow the leader! Among the myriad list of bad moves by Jerry Reese, and that list is long, deep and defining, letting Linval Joseph walk when a reasonable contract would have kept him in Blue rather than freeing up cap space for DRC, that makes be stood out as utter folly.

Instead of signing a 25 year old Linval entering his prime JR decided to sign Beason coming off his first healthy season in about 3 years.

A DT, is rated by his ability to get t9 the QB, it leaves a bad taste on my palette. I can count the number of DT’s that could stuff the run, & register double digit sacks in a season. In fact, what many of you are overlooking, is a DT,s responsibility (push the pocket & let your DE’s, get the glory). A DT, is only as good as his edge, and his ability to to execute the play called.
I may be showing my age, but the only DT, I’ve seen play both ways, from day one of play, was Bryant Young, of the Niners. IMHO, he eclipsed even Sapp’s play. Which overstated, is not overrated.
The strongest DT, I ever watched was a tossup between Erick Howard, and the Jerome Brown’s rookie year. Brown would have undoubtedly gone down as the best DT ever. Brown, Simmons, White, Joyner; what a nightmare.
Young Career Stats - ( New Window )

Considered by many to be one of the best. One double digit sack season, alongside Reggie.
JB’s Career Numbers - ( New Window )

He was a badass.
Sapp’s Career Numbers - ( New Window )

Last but not least.
Hamilton Career Numbers - ( New Window )

They should probably resign him but it does depend on the price. He's a really good player, you can legitamtely make the case that he was our best defender last year. However, his skillset is not hard to replace. There isn't any shortage of solid DTs that play the run well and provide some push in the passing game. I still lean towards resigning him because the Giants need to start to rewarding their own but there's a conversation there that extends beyond what he does on the field.

In comment 14904981 rasbutant said:

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about 12-13 mil on average? I would certainly value him as much as our new starting MLB, so 3yr 30 mil would be very reasonable deal to me.

Except that your starting MLB is going to play a hell of a lot more than a rotational DT.

In his three years starting for Green Bay, Blake Martinez was in for 98% of their defensive snaps (avg). In his three years starting for the Giants, Tomlinson has been in for only 55% of the defensive snaps (avg).

By comparison, Leonard Williams averages around 80% of the defensive snaps, and Dexter Lawrence played 63% in his first year.

in a 3-4. It is our best unit IMO.

Also remember a DT getting to a QB is a scheme thing too. In most 3-4's, the DT isn't chartered with doing that, the Edge guys (or blitzing guys) are. The Rams have a scheme that puts Donald in a position to be more 1-on-1, and get to the QB. Other schemes ask the DT to eat up players, to open up the lanes for others.

Sacks are not a good metric to judge a DT.

you want a heavier player 280-310 who can provide some pass rush ability. espensa in this last draft is the exact player you want for that position, not tomlinson

you don't just want 3 run cloggers on your DL. and you don't pay run cloggers good money unless they are either dominant against the run (tomlinson is fine but not dominant) or unless they offer some pass rush ability (tomlinson offers next to nothing in this area and he's not some premium bull rusher who collapses the pocket either)

an extremely athletic DT who has pass rush ability. tomlinson is nothing like LW as a player.

i don't think LW was worth the money but he is an excellent example of what a 3-4 DE is compared to tomlinson. the two players are nothing alike

If we let Dalvin Tomlinson go, I have an overwhelming hunch that it will be a mistake. Similar to the Akiem Hicks and Linval Joseph situation, it takes so long for DT’s to develop that you’re better off paying them, rather than rolling the dice on another second rounder imo.

Chicago and Minnesota have benefited greatly from another team’s trash. We should be smarter than that. Get him on a cap friendly extension in the 12-13 range. No reason we should be extending Shepard and not Tomlinson.

It's not about what his or any DT's responsibilities on the field are. It's primarily about having finite resources in a capped league, and the best way to allocate those resources. It would be great if you could pay everybody exactly what they want, but the reality is that you can't.

In comment 14905224 PatersonPlank said:

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in a 3-4. It is our best unit IMO. Also remember a DT getting to a QB is a scheme thing too. In most 3-4's, the DT isn't chartered with doing that, the Edge guys (or blitzing guys) are. The Rams have a scheme that puts Donald in a position to be more 1-on-1, and get to the QB. Other schemes ask the DT to eat up players, to open up the lanes for others. Sacks are not a good metric to judge a DT.

We don't have good edge guys though. Pass rush has to come from somewhere.

Who would you keep, Dalvin Tomlinson or Leonard Williams?

People were ready to get rid of him.He wasn't doing anything.Flashes a little bit,and now he's on his way.

I think that's too extreme

In comment 14904969 robbieballs2003 said:

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that are severely undervaluing Tomlinson

Yes totally agree Robbie. People obviously didn't watch him to closely last year. He was an animal the second half of the season.

In comment 14905263 aGiantGuy said:

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If we let Dalvin Tomlinson go, I have an overwhelming hunch that it will be a mistake. Similar to the Akiem Hicks and Linval Joseph situation, it takes so long for DT’s to develop that you’re better off paying them, rather than rolling the dice on another second rounder imo. Chicago and Minnesota have benefited greatly from another team’s trash. We should be smarter than that. Get him on a cap friendly extension in the 12-13 range. No reason we should be extending Shepard and not Tomlinson.

he isn't half the player those guys are or were

In comment 14905360 Angel Eyes said:

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Who would you keep, Dalvin Tomlinson or Leonard Williams?

neither unless williams has a big year

In comment 14905263 aGiantGuy said:

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If we let Dalvin Tomlinson go, I have an overwhelming hunch that it will be a mistake. Similar to the Akiem Hicks and Linval Joseph situation, it takes so long for DT’s to develop that you’re better off paying them, rather than rolling the dice on another second rounder imo. Chicago and Minnesota have benefited greatly from another team’s trash. We should be smarter than that. Get him on a cap friendly extension in the 12-13 range. No reason we should be extending Shepard and not Tomlinson.

Sure there is. Shepard plays a much more valuable position.

that they cannot afford him? Not sure that sounds right.

Going on about his lack of pass rush should consider where he plays. Int DL in a 3/4. Wtf do you expect, Reggie White? Also downplaying a “run stuffing” DT in this division is stupid.

In comment 14905467 OC2.0 said:

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Going on about his lack of pass rush should consider where he plays. Int DL in a 3/4. Wtf do you expect, Reggie White? Also downplaying a “run stuffing” DT in this division is stupid.

I was expecting Leonard Marshall, or George Martin at the very least. They’re not supposed to be Curtis McGriff or Eric Dorsey.

In comment 14905082 Klaatu said:

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In comment 14904981 rasbutant said: Quote: about 12-13 mil on average? I would certainly value him as much as our new starting MLB, so 3yr 30 mil would be very reasonable deal to me. Except that your starting MLB is going to play a hell of a lot more than a rotational DT. In his three years starting for Green Bay, Blake Martinez was in for 98% of their defensive snaps (avg). In his three years starting for the Giants, Tomlinson has been in for only 55% of the defensive snaps (avg). By comparison, Leonard Williams averages around 80% of the defensive snaps, and Dexter Lawrence played 63% in his first year.

Good post. Didn’t realize DT was that low on snap count. I wonder if his production (not easily measured obviously) is still commensurate to the others per snap? I guess if another team will get him up to 80% and is willing to pay for it then he should jump at it.

In comment 14905477 Angel Eyes said:

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In comment 14905467 OC2.0 said: Quote: Going on about his lack of pass rush should consider where he plays. Int DL in a 3/4. Wtf do you expect, Reggie White? Also downplaying a “run stuffing” DT in this division is stupid. I was expecting Leonard Marshall, or George Martin at the very least. They’re not supposed to be Curtis McGriff or Eric Dorsey.

I expected more from Leonard Williams, but so far I’ve been disappointed.

But I thought the point of having a rookie qb was that you can sign players in their prime on cap friendly extensions and even when the qb finally does get paid you can backload his contract to buy even more time. You know, like the Eagles have been doing for the past 5 years.

Now if we’re gonna hand out 20 million dollar contracts obviously that space won’t last but as long as we’re staying in the 10-15 range I don’t see how we can’t keep the guys we’ve groomed

Dalvin, Dexter and Williams are a real strength for this team... Williams and Thomlinson have been especially underappreciated here. They are active and disruptive in all phases of play. I expect them to be even more effective, with Higher Sack and Pressure Production as the level of the other 8 defensive pieces/positions rises toward their quality level.