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NFT: Jordan documentary concludes

Gmen1982 : 5/18/2020 8:54 am
I really liked the part about Steve Kerr. Looks like he worked his ass off to get there.

I didn’t know the “flu game” was actually food poisoning.

Great documentary. I’m looking forward to watching it in its entirety the next lockdown!

Thoughts?
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RE: I remember watching the '00 draft  
KDavies : 5/18/2020 4:35 pm : link
In comment 14906224 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
& being completely confused why they drafted Fizer when they had Brand. That made no sense.

Sucks what happened to Jay Williams. Even though he was a Dukie, I think he would have been a good pro. I remember him having a big game vs. Kidd & the Nets that rookie season of his.


I think they would have been a completely different team with a healthy Jay Williams, Brand, Artest, Crawford, Brad Miller, Curry, and Hinrich. Although I guess I can't really count in Jay Williams because if they keep Brand, they might have gotten better than the two pick
RE: RE: RE: i cannot imagine  
Greg from LI : 5/18/2020 4:36 pm : link
In comment 14906180 Gmen1982 said:
Quote:
I would because I enjoy football and it already happened. Again, you didn’t want to watch it. No one cares so get off this thread.


No
What are you five?  
Gmen1982 : 5/18/2020 4:54 pm : link
You’re not coming across as this awesome New York fan. More of a jealous, whiny bitch that just wants to stir shit up.
Regarding Marcus Fizer  
KDavies : 5/18/2020 4:56 pm : link
Tim Floyd was the Bulls coach at the time. He recruited Fizer, and Fizer played a year at Iowa State with him. It was a curious pick even with that connection, but it was a terrible draft overall.

Brand was just a good solid player. 20 points, 10 rebounds, a block and a half a game. I don’t know why they replaced him. Just looking for that shiny new toy in Chandler/Curry. Turns out Brand has the best career out of all of them
What did you think was going to happen here?  
Greg from LI : 5/18/2020 5:20 pm : link
You repeatedly post a bunch of slobbery love letters to the fucking Bulls on a Giants site, where many of the basketball fans are Knicks fans who despise Michael Jordan, and you didn't think you would get any pushback? Do you not have some Bulls site where you can sit around and blather about that team to your heart's content?
I expected adults that were interested and watched to post.  
Gmen1982 : 5/18/2020 5:54 pm : link
I expected whiny bitches like you, who already expressed their opinion to have the maturity to stay off. I guess my expectations were too high.

Stop acting like this wasn’t worthy of a non football thread. People ask what their favorite lawn mowers are. Sorry I wanted to discuss a highly watched show on TV.
RE: A shamless, puff piece via ESPN/Nike to prop up MJ  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 5/18/2020 7:20 pm : link
In comment 14906021 Stan in LA said:
Quote:
Like they've been doing for the last 30 years.

And the sad thing is that people still buy this junk.

Oh, and remind me, what exactly did Jordan win his 1st 6 years and his last 2?

Kinna hard when you don't have Hall of Fame players and the GOAT coach around you.


I don't know you, but based on this post I've concluded that you are either an imbecile, or an intense dislike of MJ has caused you to create an alternate reality to live in as a defense mechanism.
I don't buy the MJ/food  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 5/18/2020 7:46 pm : link
poisoning story. How would they know it was for Jordan? One of his handlers calls up a local pizza joint & says, 'Hey. I'd like to place an order for a pie for Michael Jordan. Yeah, that Michael Jordan, the Bulls superstar trying to beat your team. Thanks.'

That seems ridiculous. There's long been rumors he was hungover. And hell, if he was, he still played out of his mind. Haha.
RE: I don't buy the MJ/food  
Pete in 'Vliet : 5/18/2020 7:50 pm : link
In comment 14906375 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
poisoning story. How would they know it was for Jordan? One of his handlers calls up a local pizza joint & says, 'Hey. I'd like to place an order for a pie for Michael Jordan. Yeah, that Michael Jordan, the Bulls superstar trying to beat your team. Thanks.'

That seems ridiculous. There's long been rumors he was hungover. And hell, if he was, he still played out of his mind. Haha.


I just don't buy Jordan being hungover. The guy is competitive to a fault. I don't see him getting so drunk the night before (what he figured may be) a game his last finals, that he would still be hung over at game time. I would buy that for a lot of famous athletes, but not Jordan. All that guy wants in life is to beat everyone at everything.
Pete  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 5/18/2020 7:55 pm : link
He did go to AC between Games 1 & 2 of the '93 ECF so it's not like didn't have a track record of having fun between games. I buy him being hungover more than some Utah pizzeria poisoning his pizza. And again, how in God's name would they know it was for Jordan? You think MJ doesn't have a fake name at the hotel?
RE: Pete  
Enzo : 5/18/2020 7:58 pm : link
In comment 14906383 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
He did go to AC between Games 1 & 2 of the '93 ECF so it's not like didn't have a track record of having fun between games. I buy him being hungover more than some Utah pizzeria poisoning his pizza. And again, how in God's name would they know it was for Jordan? You think MJ doesn't have a fake name at the hotel?

not sure if they mentioned this, but why not just come out and say it was food poisoning back in 98? Why call it the flu?
Enzo.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 5/18/2020 8:04 pm : link
Good point. Hell, I've had both & personally, food poisoning knocked me on my ass more.

Again, even if he was hungover, it's been 23 years. What's there to hide? I think a lot of people-myself included-would be like, 'Damn. MJ dropped something like 38 on the Jazz & hit a crucial 3 for the win? & he was hungover? This man is not human.' Haha.
If he was hungover they could’ve given him an IV.  
Gmen1982 : 5/18/2020 8:32 pm : link
But who really knows? I’ll go with what MJ said I. That one since there’s no reason to lie now.
Gmen.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 5/18/2020 8:40 pm : link
It makes him look more pristine, like he was a victim. It's entirely possible he just had awful luck & got food poisoning, but I don't buy it.

Again, how did they know it was for Jordan? 5 guys deliver it to his room? His head security guy had a bad hunch yet MJ ate it? I'm not saying this is like a JFK conspiracy, but there's a lot of holes in the story.
& again, why hide this for 23 years?  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 5/18/2020 8:42 pm : link
If he was severely hungover & played like he did...again, damn. He's a monster. Most of us are in the fetal position when that hungover yet he went out & dominated. That's even more impressive.
Right, that’s why I do t think he was hungover  
Gmen1982 : 5/18/2020 8:45 pm : link
It would be funny to tell that story now. But who knows?
RE: RE: i cannot imagine  
LauderdaleMatty : 5/18/2020 8:51 pm : link
In comment 14906146 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14906070 hitdog42 said:


Quote:


being a sports fan, and watching the Last Dance in lockdown, and not enjoying it.



Would you watch some tongue-bath documentary about the '90s Cowboys? Maybe you would. I sure as shit wouldn't.


Jordan is likely the best player ever but I’ve not watched a moment. Not a big pro basketball fan anymore on top on Beijing a suffering Knick can. Top thst with the fact that Jordan is a pretty shitty person. Hes a compulsive gamblers who signs guy to 10 day contracts to pay his debts.

So no. Huge sports fan who also doesn’t give a flying fuck about him. Balmy for those who have enjoyed it so yay for you
Agreeing w Greg.  
LauderdaleMatty : 5/18/2020 8:52 pm : link
Forgot to add by +1
I remember watching that game @ a buddy's.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 5/18/2020 8:54 pm : link
After the game ended-with Marv saying something like 'A courageous, classic performance by the flu ridden Michael Jordan', we both were like, 'This guy is not human.'

I couldn't stand him. But he was insane. This 'Who is the GOAT? MJ or LeBron?'...GTFO with that ?. LeBron isn't even close.
He wasn’t hungover  
MetsAreBack : 5/18/2020 8:54 pm : link
That’s a load of crap. Just wasn’t his persona during his playing days. Just because he gambled between games 1 and 2 against the knicks (and claims he got back to nyc at a reasonable hour the night before - who knows) doesn’t mean he’s excessively drinking before finals games now. Makes no sense.

But he definitely reached on things to be ‘mad’ about Throughout his career - the george Karl dinner slight, the Russell slight, a supposed Bj Armstrong slight, this notion that he lit up the knicks in 93 because of the gambling questions .... please. He probably convinced himself it was food poisoning to be mad at all of Utah or something.

Anyway, if Charles Smith wasn’t such a pussy that series ends differently.

/still not over it
MAB  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 5/18/2020 9:03 pm : link
We lost that game because we were like 18 for 35 from the charity stripe. That was a huge problem for us in the '90s.
The NBA was so much better back then imo..  
Sean : 5/18/2020 9:48 pm : link
I miss the rivalries. I miss the physicality. I miss the low scoring defensive battles.

I know nostalgia kicks in the older you get & the Knicks have been garbage for 20 years, but I just enjoyed the league more back then.
RE: The NBA was so much better back then imo..  
Dave in PA : 5/19/2020 12:27 am : link
In comment 14906438 Sean said:
Quote:
I miss the rivalries. I miss the physicality. I miss the low scoring defensive battles.

I know nostalgia kicks in the older you get & the Knicks have been garbage for 20 years, but I just enjoyed the league more back then.
Without question. The modern game has way more scoring and 3 point shooting and it’s BORING as all hell. Basketball sucks today compared to the 90’s. Man I’m still clinging to that short season finals run by the Knicks lol. Prior to Giants in 2007 that was the best playoff run of my lifetime. I loved that team.
Im a die hard Knicks fan...  
Italianju : 5/19/2020 8:09 am : link
and hate the bulls but this was great. The bulls rivalary was 20 years ago and it was barely a rivalry for them. I hated Jordan cause he always beat us but i still enjoyed watching him and this documentary was great. Who cares if it was a puff piece for jordan. If it wasnt a puff piece then they made it wrong, he is the greatest player of all time (or at least top 3) its not like a struggle to make him look good.

And in classic BBI fashion its hilarioius that people who thought this was the worst thing ever and dont intend to "watch a minute of it" as many have said still feel the need to come on here and trash it. When i see a thread about something i dont want to watch i usually just, ya know, dont click the thread. But hey i guess im weird like that.
RE: Im a die hard Knicks fan...  
Gmen1982 : 5/19/2020 8:24 am : link
In comment 14906513 Italianju said:
Quote:
and hate the bulls but this was great. The bulls rivalary was 20 years ago and it was barely a rivalry for them. I hated Jordan cause he always beat us but i still enjoyed watching him and this documentary was great. Who cares if it was a puff piece for jordan. If it wasnt a puff piece then they made it wrong, he is the greatest player of all time (or at least top 3) its not like a struggle to make him look good.

And in classic BBI fashion its hilarioius that people who thought this was the worst thing ever and dont intend to "watch a minute of it" as many have said still feel the need to come on here and trash it. When i see a thread about something i dont want to watch i usually just, ya know, dont click the thread. But hey i guess im weird like that.


Well said! It's amazing people take it so personally. Instead of appreciating that they saw the greatest player ever. But he was mean and gambled.
Why didn't Jordan stay with the Bulls?  
PaulBlakeTSU : 5/19/2020 8:27 am : link
he said that he wanted to go for another championship. He didn't want to play in a rebuild, but I don't believe that if he said I will come back but you have to field a competitive team, they would have said "no thanks, go retire, we are tearing it down). He meant too much to the city and brought in too much revenue to the team for that to make an iota of sense.

Was it just that he wanted that specific team? Seems like he made a choice to not want to have a sub-optimal supporting cast.

I think he was delusional that everyone would have returned for another year. It was a convenient way to rip Krause/Reinsdorf that he thought Scottie would sign for a one-year deal just because Jordan had been doing so. The guy was the most underpaid player in the league, made $2.75 million in 98 and was finally finishing that 7/$18 contract. There is NO WAY he was signing a one-year deal with Chicago. It was time for him to get paid.

It was a very entertaining 10-part series, and much needed during this dearth of sports. It wasn't so much a documentary so much as infotainment given the approvals that Jordan had over everything, but it was still very entertaining to watch, no matter how many times they eliminated the Knicks.

I do think Kukoc, Horace, and Harper got short shrift in the doc and were much better pieces to the two runs than attention given to them during the series.




Yeah there is no way pippen...  
Italianju : 5/19/2020 8:30 am : link


was coming back for one year on a below market deal. I could see the other guys, but not Pippen. Jordan is nuts if he thinks that, ha.

I think Krause was determined to move on from Pippen and Phil and Jordan didnt want to play without them. If Jackson came back i could see Jordan coming back, but without jax and pippen, no way.

I do t think jordan would’ve won the following year.  
Gmen1982 : 5/19/2020 8:56 am : link
He obviously felt he would’ve but the team would’ve had to add a new star or two
I thought it was pretty well done...  
Chris684 : 5/19/2020 9:36 am : link
For those claiming it was a Jordan puff piece, they covered his gambling, rumors of responsibility for his father's death, some of his lowlights as a teammate with Steve Kerr, etc.

Considering he is up there with Babe Ruth and Ali as probably the best and most iconic athletes in American sports history, a documentary about the guy is probably not going to come across any other way.

I was surprised by how poorly Pippen came across in this though.

As a Knicks fan who witnessed all of Jordan's prime as a child in the 90's, I didn't like him then because he crushed my dreams many times. As an adult, I've grown to appreciate and respect what I was watching at the time, which is the greatest basketball player ever. Hands down.

Also, I think 1980-2000 is the greatest 20 years in NBA history. Bird and Magic started it. You had Celtics, Lakers and Pistons dynasties. Jordan came along and started the Bulls dynasty. The Dream Team. You had a dynasty of big men; Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq, Zo, David Robinson and to a lesser extent even guys like Smits and Mutombo.

Some of the best teams in the East couldn't sniff a title with Jordan around. Knicks-Bulls-Pacers-Heat rivalries. Stockton and Malone, Barkley. He has rings that would have otherwise gone to most of his Dream Team teammates. Teams could have "enforcers" like Oakley and the Davis Bros. Low scoring, defensive battles that were awesome.

By the end of the era you had guys like Kobe, Duncan, Kidd, Iverson and Carter. The next Lakers dynasty was beginning.

interesting  
MetsAreBack : 5/19/2020 9:40 am : link
but i thought his fathers' death was covered as a pretty clear case of a random, violent act.

Also why do you think Pippen came across poorly? It was well covered how grossly underpaid he was, and so I thought the "holdout" in 1998 was completely justified - pretty normal course of action these days anyway - not to mention the way his health starting giving out late in the year, notably the back injury during the Finals, it was a good thing he skipped the first 40 or whatever games that year when they didnt need him anyway. That period of time also kept Rodman engaged too.

The other time they made him look bad was when he refused to enter the game when Kukoc got the final shot vs NYK... it is what it is.

Were there other examples? Jordan was pretty clear throughout that he couldnt have had the success he had without "Pip"...
Pippen came off well @ the end.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 5/19/2020 9:48 am : link
I totally forgot him gutting it out in Game 6 of the '98 Finals.
RE: interesting  
Chris684 : 5/19/2020 9:50 am : link
In comment 14906571 MetsAreBack said:
Quote:
but i thought his fathers' death was covered as a pretty clear case of a random, violent act.

Also why do you think Pippen came across poorly? It was well covered how grossly underpaid he was, and so I thought the "holdout" in 1998 was completely justified - pretty normal course of action these days anyway - not to mention the way his health starting giving out late in the year, notably the back injury during the Finals, it was a good thing he skipped the first 40 or whatever games that year when they didnt need him anyway. That period of time also kept Rodman engaged too.

The other time they made him look bad was when he refused to enter the game when Kukoc got the final shot vs NYK... it is what it is.

Were there other examples? Jordan was pretty clear throughout that he couldnt have had the success he had without "Pip"...


I was referencing the Kukoc thing. I also think he was fixated on the Krause stuff but I guess if I felt I was cheated then out of millions that would still be in my bank account.

I guess as a Knicks fan I always disliked Scottie more than Jordan even. I think it was the dunk and taunt over Ewing.
RE: RE: Was surprised MJ was so adamant he wanted  
TyreeHelmet : 5/19/2020 11:47 am : link
In comment 14905943 Enzo said:
Quote:
In comment 14905894 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:


Quote:


to return. It still makes no sense why Krause wanted to break that dynasty up.


the owner was cheap. Probably not any more complicated than that. Jordan was paid $33 million in his last year and the rest of the team was due to get paid, including Pippen who got a huge deal from Houston.


I am surprised Reinsdorf hasn't received more criticism for this. If I was the owner I was paying and doing whatever it took to keep that team together. But hey at least he patted himself on the back for paying MJ his 3 million NBA salary while he played baseball....
RE: I thought it was pretty well done...  
Gmen1982 : 5/19/2020 12:05 pm : link
In comment 14906567 Chris684 said:
Quote:
For those claiming it was a Jordan puff piece, they covered his gambling, rumors of responsibility for his father's death, some of his lowlights as a teammate with Steve Kerr, etc.

Considering he is up there with Babe Ruth and Ali as probably the best and most iconic athletes in American sports history, a documentary about the guy is probably not going to come across any other way.

I was surprised by how poorly Pippen came across in this though.

As a Knicks fan who witnessed all of Jordan's prime as a child in the 90's, I didn't like him then because he crushed my dreams many times. As an adult, I've grown to appreciate and respect what I was watching at the time, which is the greatest basketball player ever. Hands down.

Also, I think 1980-2000 is the greatest 20 years in NBA history. Bird and Magic started it. You had Celtics, Lakers and Pistons dynasties. Jordan came along and started the Bulls dynasty. The Dream Team. You had a dynasty of big men; Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq, Zo, David Robinson and to a lesser extent even guys like Smits and Mutombo.

Some of the best teams in the East couldn't sniff a title with Jordan around. Knicks-Bulls-Pacers-Heat rivalries. Stockton and Malone, Barkley. He has rings that would have otherwise gone to most of his Dream Team teammates. Teams could have "enforcers" like Oakley and the Davis Bros. Low scoring, defensive battles that were awesome.

By the end of the era you had guys like Kobe, Duncan, Kidd, Iverson and Carter. The next Lakers dynasty was beginning.


So even though you are a Knicks fan, you are able to appreciate and respect what MJ did 20 years who? Interesting.
I don't understand why people were so confused  
Leg of Theismann : 5/19/2020 12:37 pm : link
about the chronology of it. You had two separate stories. The main one was the 1998 season ("the Last Dance") when they gave cameras unprecedented access and it was clearly the most interesting season from a drama /soap-opera standpoint with Jerry Krause. The other story was that of the full dynasty going all the way back to when MJ was first drafted. Both stories were going in perfect chronological order, they were just jumping back and forth between the two. I didn't find it confusing nor annoying at all, personally.
RE: RE: I thought it was pretty well done...  
Chris684 : 5/19/2020 12:53 pm : link
In comment 14906685 Gmen1982 said:
Quote:
In comment 14906567 Chris684 said:


Quote:


For those claiming it was a Jordan puff piece, they covered his gambling, rumors of responsibility for his father's death, some of his lowlights as a teammate with Steve Kerr, etc.

Considering he is up there with Babe Ruth and Ali as probably the best and most iconic athletes in American sports history, a documentary about the guy is probably not going to come across any other way.

I was surprised by how poorly Pippen came across in this though.

As a Knicks fan who witnessed all of Jordan's prime as a child in the 90's, I didn't like him then because he crushed my dreams many times. As an adult, I've grown to appreciate and respect what I was watching at the time, which is the greatest basketball player ever. Hands down.

Also, I think 1980-2000 is the greatest 20 years in NBA history. Bird and Magic started it. You had Celtics, Lakers and Pistons dynasties. Jordan came along and started the Bulls dynasty. The Dream Team. You had a dynasty of big men; Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq, Zo, David Robinson and to a lesser extent even guys like Smits and Mutombo.

Some of the best teams in the East couldn't sniff a title with Jordan around. Knicks-Bulls-Pacers-Heat rivalries. Stockton and Malone, Barkley. He has rings that would have otherwise gone to most of his Dream Team teammates. Teams could have "enforcers" like Oakley and the Davis Bros. Low scoring, defensive battles that were awesome.

By the end of the era you had guys like Kobe, Duncan, Kidd, Iverson and Carter. The next Lakers dynasty was beginning.




So even though you are a Knicks fan, you are able to appreciate and respect what MJ did 20 years who? Interesting.


Yea. Greatness is greatness. I mean, what I'm most mad about is Jordan wasn't a Knick, but such is life.

What Jordan did to the Knicks he did to everyone. And in the years since if anything I've become defensive of Jordan over guys like Kobe (who I respected) and LeBron (who I respect much less) because I feel the prime of Jordan's era was much more challenging than what the league is today. For all the reasons I stated above. It's a much softer, finesse league today.

RE: RE: RE: Was surprised MJ was so adamant he wanted  
Enzo : 5/19/2020 2:42 pm : link
In comment 14906658 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
In comment 14905943 Enzo said:


Quote:


In comment 14905894 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:


Quote:


to return. It still makes no sense why Krause wanted to break that dynasty up.


the owner was cheap. Probably not any more complicated than that. Jordan was paid $33 million in his last year and the rest of the team was due to get paid, including Pippen who got a huge deal from Houston.



I am surprised Reinsdorf hasn't received more criticism for this. If I was the owner I was paying and doing whatever it took to keep that team together. But hey at least he patted himself on the back for paying MJ his 3 million NBA salary while he played baseball....

MJ wanted the criticism to fall firmly on Krause, so that's what we got.
RE: I thought it was pretty well done...  
Enzo : 5/19/2020 2:45 pm : link
In comment 14906567 Chris684 said:
Quote:
For those claiming it was a Jordan puff piece, they covered his gambling, rumors of responsibility for his father's death, some of his lowlights as a teammate with Steve Kerr, etc.

Considering he is up there with Babe Ruth and Ali as probably the best and most iconic athletes in American sports history, a documentary about the guy is probably not going to come across any other way.

I was surprised by how poorly Pippen came across in this though.

all the stuff about his contract was a bit much. Would have been nice if they had somebody come out say, "nobody forced him to sign a 7 year deal". And yes, he was underpaid, but he only became way underpaid relative to the other stars in the league in the last couple of years of the deal.
I'm not sure if you watched the series  
MetsAreBack : 5/19/2020 4:10 pm : link
but Reinsdorf said exactly that.

I thought it was a little odd that JR was so adamant about holding Pippen to his deal, and so many others too... but Jordan plays baseball for a year, the tune changes to "he made me and so many others a lot of money... we paid him anyway"

I do take your point that Pippen's deal, while underpaid, was what... a little over $2 mil/year or something while Jordan for most of those years was 'only' paid $3.8
RE: I thought it was pretty well done...  
PhiPsi125 : 5/19/2020 7:34 pm : link
In comment 14906567 Chris684 said:
Quote:
For those claiming it was a Jordan puff piece, they covered his gambling, rumors of responsibility for his father's death, some of his lowlights as a teammate with Steve Kerr, etc.


LOL, this was absolutely a puff piece for MJ. This guys entire world is "image". He controlled the entire narrative.

Sure, they talked about his warts...and then promptly had 10 people to downplay the topics or downright refute them.

Gambling? Totally not a big deal, didn't interfere with his playing, he only gambled this much because he's rich and has such a competitive fire, had absolutely nothing to do with is retirement, totally normal, zero to do with his father's death

Unpopular teammate? All the teammates they interviewed revered the guy. Even the guy he "tormented" Scott Burrell had nothing bad to say about MJ. And when we did get a criticism ("He was an asshole") it was followed by a compliment ("He was a hell of a teammate").

Steve Kerr Issue? LOL, could we have glossed over that anymore? Tiptoed around what actually happened followed by a slobberfest by Kerr himself.

Jordan is also the only person that they filmed viewing other people's comments and allowing him a chance to comment or refute or downplay...who else did they give that opportunity to? Oh...nobody.

It's not hard to see what they did here. Still loved the piece, but it's totally puff.

"Jordan totally would have made the majors in MLB!" - despite being the worst player on that AA team...BUT SURE!!
I think it sucks that Krause wasn't around to defend himself.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 5/19/2020 7:39 pm : link
And Jerry Reinsdorf...GTO with that 'I tried to save it' nonsense. He was the owner. He had final say. Revisionist history from Reinsdorf.
Horace Grant with sharp criticism of the doc/Jordan  
PaulBlakeTSU : 5/19/2020 9:16 pm : link
he was upset about being called a snitch, had issues with how Pip was portrayed, opined on the editorial nature of the program, and weighed in on Jordan's treatment of some players.

Quote:
The interview concluded with Grant being asked why he repeatedly referred to "The Last Dance" as a "so-called documentary." Some have pointed to the fact that two of Jordan's closest confidantes, Estee Portnoy and Curtis Polk, were executive producers on the docuseries as an indication that Jordan had final say and creative control over the project. Director Jason Hehir has pushed back against that criticism, but Grant didn't hesitate to discuss what he believes to be a biased point of view in favor of Jordan.

"When that so-called documentary is about one person, basically, and he has the last word on what's going to be put out there ... it's not a documentary," Grant said. "It's his narrative of what happens in the last, quote-unquote, dance. That's not a documentary, because a whole bunch of things was cut out, edited out. So that's why I call it a so-called documentary."

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29195428/horace-grant-says-michael-jordan-lied-last-dance-calls-snitch - ( New Window )
Hate to defend MJ, but I've read from  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 5/19/2020 10:02 pm : link
multiple people-MJ detractors-that Grant was the primary source for Smith's 'Jordan Rules'. Horace hated the attention Jordan got.
MJ was hard on Grant.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 5/19/2020 10:05 pm : link
I believe he told an airline stewardess not to give him dinner because he played like garbage that night.

Don't forget the Magic carried Grant off the court after they beat the Bulls in 6 in the '95 semifinals.

Not a lot of lost love between the two.
I don't doubt that Jordan was hard on a lot of teammates  
PhiPsi125 : 5/19/2020 10:24 pm : link
and probably not the easiest person to be around in a team environment. And all of that harsh criticism that we all already knew seemed to be missing or refuted or excused in the documentary.

Puff piece. It's okay to admit it. He's still the GOAT. But totally a puff piece.
RE: I don't doubt that Jordan was hard on a lot of teammates  
Leg of Theismann : 5/22/2020 7:22 pm : link
In comment 14907138 PhiPsi125 said:
Quote:
and probably not the easiest person to be around in a team environment. And all of that harsh criticism that we all already knew seemed to be missing or refuted or excused in the documentary.

Puff piece. It's okay to admit it. He's still the GOAT. But totally a puff piece.


I personally disagree a bit. I felt like they gave a voice to every criticism that he's been known for over the years. Including the whole bit about him not voicing his opinion about that segregationist politician, but I know the other main criticism is just that he was unnecessarily an asshole to a lot of people including fans, opponents, and even teammates. (Regarding fans: remember they showed him turning down that French guy asking for an autograph? At first it's like "wow dick move" but IMO the documentary made you really understand how claustrophobic it can feel to constantly be followed by everyone everywhere you go and asked for autographs constantly.)

But let's talk about him being an asshole to his teammates: yes, he was hard on a lot of teammates, that's true, but I think they covered that with plenty of material, and if any past teammate wanted to sit down for an interview and criticize him for this or that, I guarantee they would have included it in this doc just to spark some controversy. But it's clear that after all these years have passed, no one has the balls to come out and say he was a real terrible asshole, because they all seem to look back and be grateful for the fact that he was the reason they won a championship or multiple championships. It's hard for anyone after-the-fact to come out now and say "Jordan was an asshole" or "Jordan was too hard on us" etc. because they realize they'll look weak and ungrateful of the fact that Jordan running a tight ship had a lot to do with them winning so much.

I honestly think that's why the end of Episode 7 was the most pivotal moment in the whole thing... he basically said (paraphrasing) "yeah I realize a lot of people didn't view me as a nice guy... but winning has a price, and that's the way I play the game. If you don't want to play that way, then don't play that way." And you can see he's tearing up as he's saying this. He also said at other points he was purposely being hard on them so as to test them and test their character and prepare them for playing very tough, physical (and trash-talking) teams like Detroit and NY who were their biggest threats in the East.

Let's take a couple examples...

He was particularly hard on Scott Burrell and I think the documentary did a good job of showing that. He was continuously calling him "ho" and "bitch", and Jordan said later (as I mentioned above) he was doing that to try to toughen Scott up. Was it necessary? Maybe not. But then again who are we to question MJ considering he came away with 6 titles in 8 years (while taking 1.5 years off from the game mind you).

Other example: the fact he was very hard on Steve Kerr and even punched him in the face in the middle of a practice. All these years later Kerr feels zero resentment about that... he said he felt like MJ was testing him and he withstood the test and it was a huge part of their relationship being as strong as it was for the 3 championships they won after that.

I'll admit-- I thought MJ was a bit hypocritical at times. He was sitting there clearly irritated by the fact he felt Steve Kerr and Luc Longley weren't "taking things serious enough" when they first joined the team just because they'd come in laughing or joking at the beginning of practice, even though MJ himself does a lot of laughing and joking at practice and later on when playing golf with the team says "Phil knows we need rest, a lot of other coaches would be too mean-spirited to allow at day off like this." It's like he wanted people to rest, laugh, joke around when he wanted to, but also be 110% serious and working overtime when he wanted to. But again-- who am I to question his method(s) when he not only was the GOAT in terms of individual performance, but those 90s Bulls IMO were the pinnacle of greatness achieved by a *team* in all NBA history (I know the 60s Celtics are also in the conversation but I give the 90s Bulls more credit for the competition they had to face).

One last thing-- on him being an asshole to opponents... I think Isaiah not shaking their hands after the loss was plenty reason for MJ to hold a grudge against him, and I also do believe that MJ wasn't the only one who wanted Isaiah off the Dream Team-- Isaiah was generally an unlikable guy with a lot of the other players as well.

And what about that story about him making up the whole "Nice game, Mike" story and using that to completely embarrass that one young player? I thought that was pretty weird and didn't portray him in a good light, but at the same time you just kind of laugh and say "This guy was flat out insanely competitive-- he didn't want to just win, he wanted to beat everybody into the ground. And it's that mentality that led him to having the career he had."

I thought it was also crazy how he got right up in Larry Bird's hear after beating the Pacers and said "You bitch, fuck you"... I know he was joking, but clearly he was a bit of a sore winner and was loved kicking people while they were down.

So, again-- I think they did plenty to show MJ's asshole side, and it's up to us to take the good with the bad and decide what we think of his character. I disagree that they kept it 100% a puff piece and all positive.

If I missed any criticism or awful story of MJ that they purposely left out, I'd love to know it... maybe there are things I'm missing or haven't heard that really portray him as a terrible awful dude. Really I'd love to hear anything and everything I might be missing.
Leg of Theisman.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 5/22/2020 7:27 pm : link
Perhaps I went in thinking he was going to be worse, but I didn't think MJ was THAT big of a dick to his teammates. Yes, he rode Burrell pretty hard, but it's pretty apparent how he joked with him that he actually liked him. You don't ride someone that hard who you can't stand or don't think they're worth the time. As Purdue said, yeah he could be an asshole, but he was also a great teammate. Kerr even said his bond with MJ was tighter after their fight.

I had read Halberstam's 'Playing for Keeps' so I knew a lot of the stories, but I found it was a good doc. And I don't buy for a second Grant wasn't the one dishing that info to Sam Smith. Grant was incredibly jealous of the attention MJ & Pippen got.
I know it was after his era with the Bulls  
Matt M. : 5/22/2020 10:33 pm : link
but was Cartwright involved at all? He doesn't have very nice things to say about Jordan.
RE: He wasn’t hungover  
Matt M. : 5/22/2020 10:39 pm : link
In comment 14906419 MetsAreBack said:
Quote:
That’s a load of crap. Just wasn’t his persona during his playing days. Just because he gambled between games 1 and 2 against the knicks (and claims he got back to nyc at a reasonable hour the night before - who knows) doesn’t mean he’s excessively drinking before finals games now. Makes no sense.

But he definitely reached on things to be ‘mad’ about Throughout his career - the george Karl dinner slight, the Russell slight, a supposed Bj Armstrong slight, this notion that he lit up the knicks in 93 because of the gambling questions .... please. He probably convinced himself it was food poisoning to be mad at all of Utah or something.

Anyway, if Charles Smith wasn’t such a pussy that series ends differently.

/still not over it
Fuck Charles Smith and fck the refs for not blowing the whistle once on what was like 4 or 5 fouls. But, I still could see him only hitting 1 of 2 if he got the call anyway.
Maybe I missed if  
MetsAreBack : 5/22/2020 10:41 pm : link
But speaking of Burrell at one point Jordan said he did that because he knew they’d need him at some point - I don’t recall in the documentary them giving Burrell a defining moment?

My hazy memory is that SB had a few good games but I don’t recall that thread in the series at least leading anywhere other than hazing embarrassment for him?
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