The jumping around with timelines was annoying, but not the end of the world.
I also had no idea about the "Flu Game" really being food poisoning. They seemed to infer that the food poisoning was done on purpose, at least that's how I took it. Not sure if anyone else feels that way.
RE: I really enjoyed it but...damn...what a puff piece for MJ
I agree, the way his trainer Tony went over they story, he absolutely insinuated that the 5 pizza delivery guys who showed up did in fact put something in there. Jordan even made a point to say he was the only one who ate it.
regarding it being intentional, there have been conspiracy theories involving that for years. Utah fans were pretty rough (you saw MJ’s children talking about how their mother wouldn’t even let them go to Utah home games), so I think that fed into the conspiracies
I don’t buy it. If you are trying to poison him, you don’t have 5 people showing up. My guess is they all showed up just to see MJ. It was a late night (10:30 order), and Utah doesn’t have much of a night life. My guess is something was left out too long. Especially after seeing the documentary (didn’t realize MJ ate the whole pizza), the intentional food poisoning theory seems less plausible
The touched on all the relevant subject, they interviewed everyone that was relevant, and the soundtrack was absolutely amazing. I know there’s a ton of Knicks fans here that don’t like Jordan, but you have to respect the work he put in.
The last dance meant the 98 season. They kept jumping from that for the various stories, while moving to the present.
I’m not sure what more the documentary could’ve been besides people wanting it to make MJ look bad. On the court that’s impossible. Off the court, maybe but that wouldn’t change what he and that team did in the 90s.
regarding it being intentional, there have been conspiracy theories involving that for years. Utah fans were pretty rough (you saw MJ’s children talking about how their mother wouldn’t even let them go to Utah home games), so I think that fed into the conspiracies
Utah is notorious for being a pain in the butt to play at for opposing fans. Some players have come out and spoken about certain comments the fans have made. Didn't Westbrook and a fan get into it recently?
regarding it being intentional, there have been conspiracy theories involving that for years. Utah fans were pretty rough (you saw MJ’s children talking about how their mother wouldn’t even let them go to Utah home games), so I think that fed into the conspiracies
Utah is notorious for being a pain in the butt to play at for opposing fans. Some players have come out and spoken about certain comments the fans have made. Didn't Westbrook and a fan get into it recently?
During the finals. I guess they were like screw it this it it anyway so let him play.
That’s how they handled Rodman. Phil Jackson really handled it properly. If you have a young team, and a young player does that, you are handling that differently. Bulls had a veteran team, and Rodman was one of a kind. He showed up in the games when they needed it most. As Jackson alluded to, you weren’t going to start Dickie Simpson’s against Malone
Yeah, Jordan talked about his return to practice and Phil was making them run and Jordan told the team to take it slow so Rodman could ease back in. But Rodman picked up right where he left off and was leading the pack. Rodman's back story is really something. He hit a growth spurt after graduating HS and then average something like 22/12 in college. I also loved hearing him talk about his film study of shooters and the spin of the ball and getting into the right position to get the rebound. My AAU coach always talked about that.
to return. It still makes no sense why Krause wanted to break that dynasty up.
Yeah, the fact Krause announced before the season that it would be Phil's last is odd. But I also think it was ego driven and Krause wanted to prove he played more of a roll in the success than he was given.
Was texting with friends about this last night. If they stayed together, they probably win in '99 due to the shortened season and the rest it would have given them. Which makes me wonder what the domino effect would have been around the league. Specifically the Lakers
Didn't MJ suffer a pretty nasty finger injury with a cigar cutter? I believe that happened after the '98 Finals & might not have been 100% come post lockout. Also, that lockout season was FUBAR...4 games in 5 nights type of stuff. That was an old, old team. It would have been interesting though.
Yeah, Jordan talked about his return to practice and Phil was making them run and Jordan told the team to take it slow so Rodman could ease back in. But Rodman picked up right where he left off and was leading the pack. Rodman's back story is really something. He hit a growth spurt after graduating HS and then average something like 22/12 in college. I also loved hearing him talk about his film study of shooters and the spin of the ball and getting into the right position to get the rebound. My AAU coach always talked about that.
That was the trip to Vegas, not the skipping out to go to WWE during the Finals. Rodman has a 30/30. I need to watch that.
Even though I knew about his old man. I believe ASU students chanted 'PLO!' at Kerr when he was at the FT post his father's death. Talk about low class, my God.
to return. It still makes no sense why Krause wanted to break that dynasty up.
That was the biggest thing I learned too. I had read that Jordan wanted to come back, but I didn’t realize how adamant he was about it. I really wish there was more about that. I could go for a part 11 on that one.
If you recall Reinsdorf being interviewed at the end, he was really adamant about not wanting to pay all these big salaries for players that were role players on a championship team. If I recall from 20 years ago, it was a luxury tax thing.
So Reinsdorf was really fine with it.
Krause has a scout’s background. I think he preferred team building rather than team maintaining, and his ego did get in the way.
I don’t know how I feel about it to this day. On the one hand, it would have been nice to go after another championship. But on the other hand, it was nice to go out on top.
It’s kind of hard to tell what would have happened the next year, as you get into a butterfly effect game. The Knicks were tough, the Pacers were tough. Who knows
Even though I knew about his old man. I believe ASU students chanted 'PLO!' at Kerr when he was at the FT post his father's death. Talk about low class, my God.
Jesus! I had never heard that. Sounds like Duke fans
Even though I knew about his old man. I believe ASU students chanted 'PLO!' at Kerr when he was at the FT post his father's death. Talk about low class, my God.
eh, it seemed like the Kerr story (which was already widely known) was shoehorned in to fill time. It was as if the director just said "hey, this is interesting, let's just add it".
Forgot about that one. Looking it up, Jordan in interviews said that it hampered his ability to Palm the basketball and bothered him a year later. Doubt Bulls would have won it all
to return. It still makes no sense why Krause wanted to break that dynasty up.
the owner was cheap. Probably not any more complicated than that. Jordan was paid $33 million in his last year and the rest of the team was due to get paid, including Pippen who got a huge deal from Houston.
Even though I knew about his old man. I believe ASU students chanted 'PLO!' at Kerr when he was at the FT post his father's death. Talk about low class, my God.
eh, it seemed like the Kerr story (which was already widely known) was shoehorned in to fill time. It was as if the director just said "hey, this is interesting, let's just add it".
I dont know, they were setting up the storyline for Kerr's '97 title clinching shot... plus you had access to the current Warriors HC who is popular these days too so i didnt have a problem with it.
I thought it was well done... yeah obviously a little too much from Jordan's perspective and not always reality - thought some of the putdowns of Clyde Drexler, the Knicks teams, the poor rookie on the Jazz who may have said something to Jordan about his retirement (but we know Jordan lied and made up stories at times to generate inner bulletin board material) -- making it sound like George Karl didnt say hi to him at a dinner one night and thats why Jordan played well against the Sonics (...ok...)... or inferring that Gary Payton didnt actually play well against him in games 4-5, insinuating that Jordan just wanted to purposely lose so he could win the title on Fathers Day on the home court ... all seemed like a stretch.
But incredibly entertaining series, I had no issues with the jumping around between years and detailing all of their title runs. And just too bad its over now. Not sure what ESPN was trying to say midway through about detailing Jackson's 5 Lakers titles in a future documentary (i think it was a joke?) - not sure how you do that without Kobe unfortunately.
A shamless, puff piece via ESPN/Nike to prop up MJ
And the sad thing is that people still buy this junk.
Oh, and remind me, what exactly did Jordan win his 1st 6 years and his last 2?
Kinna hard when you don't have Hall of Fame players and the GOAT coach around you.
Genius right here. Michael Jordan is terrible because he didn’t win championships at the age of 38 and 39 with the Wizards, after a three year retirement.
As for not winning his first few years in the league, his 3rd year, the most notable players on the team were what? Dave Corzine, Brad Sellers, and Charles Oakley?
How many championships did Kobe win without Shaq? How many championships did Lebron win before teaming up with another HOFer, and an All-Star?
RE: RE: A shamless, puff piece via ESPN/Nike to prop up MJ
I didn’t get to see any of it and would like to now starting from the beginning. I looked online for the schedule but can only find the censored version in the ESPN app. I’m think I’m old enough to hear the bad words. Does anybody know if there are plans for the uncensored version and where I can see it?
RE: RE: A shamless, puff piece via ESPN/Nike to prop up MJ
And the sad thing is that people still buy this junk.
Oh, and remind me, what exactly did Jordan win his 1st 6 years and his last 2?
Kinna hard when you don't have Hall of Fame players and the GOAT coach around you.
Genius right here. Michael Jordan is terrible because he didn’t win championships at the age of 38 and 39 with the Wizards, after a three year retirement.
As for not winning his first few years in the league, his 3rd year, the most notable players on the team were what? Dave Corzine, Brad Sellers, and Charles Oakley?
How many championships did Kobe win without Shaq? How many championships did Lebron win before teaming up with another HOFer, and an All-Star?
Yes, I realize he won titles without Shaq. He won none before teaming up with Shaq, and won 3 of 5 with Shaq. Kobe also didn’t win the last 3 or 4 years of his career.
My overall point is that Stan is apparently calling Jordan a failure for not doing what any NBA player in history has been expected to do, and none has. Really, we expect a young Jordan to beat the loaded Pistons, Lakers, and Celtics with no one around him?
being a sports fan, and watching the Last Dance in lockdown, and not enjoying it. really have to be in a dark/hater mindset
there is no such thing as a puff piece on a guy that won 3 straight twice and won every other accolade you can in sports--- has his own brand, and is the basis for what sports marketing is today.
to return. It still makes no sense why Krause wanted to break that dynasty up.
The team wasn’t sustainable. It was an old team and a lot of them started declining fast. Rodman played less than 40 games total after that season. Pippin, Longley, Harper all declined rapidly afterward. Jordan was showing early signs of decline.
to return. It still makes no sense why Krause wanted to break that dynasty up.
The team wasn’t sustainable. It was an old team and a lot of them started declining fast. Rodman played less than 40 games total after that season. Pippin, Longley, Harper all declined rapidly afterward. Jordan was showing early signs of decline.
There's a good article today on ESPN.com about that - Reinsdorf is interviewed for it. Bottom line, Pippen wasnt coming back - he got $67 million from the Rockets that offseason. Plus apparently Jordan cut himself pretty badly with a cigar cutter that offseason too. follow up article on why Bulls werent coming back - ( New Window )
Pippen would have taken a one-year-deal to try and win #7 was total nonsense. Pippen was going to take the biggest contract. If the Bulls would have matched what Houston gave him, maybe he stays but I think it's clear Reinsdorf was not going to pay up to keep the band together. Jordan and Pippen alone would have exceeded the cap. His luxury tax bill was going to be insane.
RE: RE: RE: A shamless, puff piece via ESPN/Nike to prop up MJ
In comment 14906068 KDavies said:
[quote] In comment 14906050 KDavies said:
Quote:
In comment 14906021 Stan in LA said:
Quote:
Like they've been doing for the last 30 years.
And the sad thing is that people still buy this junk.
Oh, and remind me, what exactly did Jordan win his 1st 6 years and his last 2?
Kinna hard when you don't have Hall of Fame players and the GOAT coach around you.
Genius right here. Michael Jordan is terrible because he didn’t win championships at the age of 38 and 39 with the Wizards, after a three year retirement.
As for not winning his first few years in the league, his 3rd year, the most notable players on the team were what? Dave Corzine, Brad Sellers, and Charles Oakley?
How many championships did Kobe win without Shaq? How many championships did Lebron win before teaming up with another HOFer, and an All-Star?
Yes, I realize he won titles without Shaq. He won none before teaming up with Shaq, and won 3 of 5 with Shaq. Kobe also didn’t win the last 3 or 4 years of his career.
My overall point is that Stan is apparently calling Jordan a failure for not doing what any NBA player in history has been expected to do, and none has. Really, we expect a young Jordan to beat the loaded Pistons, Lakers, and Celtics with no one around him?
I agree with your premise, but your memory if failing you. There was no "before Shaq", Kobe was drafted in '96. The same year Shaq joned the Lakers.
It was interesting to see how low the scores were.
and how much defense was valued by the coaches.
I remember back in the 60's it was not uncommon for scores to be in the 130's. No telling what Jordan could average in todays game.
For me, it was interesting to get a glimpse as to what went on in the locker rooms.
being a sports fan, and watching the Last Dance in lockdown, and not enjoying it. really have to be in a dark/hater mindset
there is no such thing as a puff piece on a guy that won 3 straight twice and won every other accolade you can in sports--- has his own brand, and is the basis for what sports marketing is today.
100% this! I hated that man and team and still can't die a happy man because the Knicks haven't won a title in my lifetime. However, I can appreciate the greatness I witnessed now that sports isn't my entire life like it was when I was growing up in the 90's
Name 1 player who has won a title without a superstar teammate? In my 40 years of living, I can't come up with 1 NBA champion that didn't have multiple all stars on their roster
Pippen would have taken a one-year-deal to try and win #7 was total nonsense. Pippen was going to take the biggest contract. If the Bulls would have matched what Houston gave him, maybe he stays but I think it's clear Reinsdorf was not going to pay up to keep the band together. Jordan and Pippen alone would have exceeded the cap. His luxury tax bill was going to be insane.
Forget Jordan and Pippin. Jordan alone exceeded the salary cap.
There was no luxury tax back then, so that wasn’t an issue. But being capped out would have prevented them from signing any free agents to replace aging players. Even if you accept the dubious assumption that Jordan and Pippin could have maintained their play going forward, how do you put other talent around them?
played less than 40 games after the last title. Longley has ankle issues. Harper was old. Krause gets the blame from it, but it was an organizational decision.
The summer before the last championship, Reinsdorf and Krause met with others in the organization, including the trainers. It was pretty much decided that it was the last hurrah at that time.
Krause gets ripped for his treatment of Pippen, but Pippen never averaged more than 15 points after he left the Bulls. He was at getting towards the end of his productive days as well.
Pippen would have taken a one-year-deal to try and win #7 was total nonsense. Pippen was going to take the biggest contract. If the Bulls would have matched what Houston gave him, maybe he stays but I think it's clear Reinsdorf was not going to pay up to keep the band together. Jordan and Pippen alone would have exceeded the cap. His luxury tax bill was going to be insane.
Forget Jordan and Pippin. Jordan alone exceeded the salary cap.
There was no luxury tax back then, so that wasn’t an issue. But being capped out would have prevented them from signing any free agents to replace aging players. Even if you accept the dubious assumption that Jordan and Pippin could have maintained their play going forward, how do you put other talent around them?
luxury tax was implemented as part of new CBA after 98/99 lockout. I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume Reinsdorf had a hunch it was coming.
Regardless, if Krause was half the GM he thought he was, surrounding MJ/Pippen with passable role players and ring chasing vets may have been difficult but not impossible.
Traded for Pippen, drafted Grant, drafted Armstrong, traded Oakley for Cartwright, replaced Collins with Phil Jackson, traded for Rodman, drafted Kukoc, signed Ron Harper, etc.
Traded for Pippen, drafted Grant, drafted Armstrong, traded Oakley for Cartwright, replaced Collins with Phil Jackson, traded for Rodman, drafted Kukoc, signed Ron Harper, etc.
Traded for Pippen, drafted Grant, drafted Armstrong, traded Oakley for Cartwright, replaced Collins with Phil Jackson, traded for Rodman, drafted Kukoc, signed Ron Harper, etc.
wow, really? lol...
Great rebuttal. Very convincing and backed up with a lot of facts
Traded for Pippen, drafted Grant, drafted Armstrong, traded Oakley for Cartwright, replaced Collins with Phil Jackson, traded for Rodman, drafted Kukoc, signed Ron Harper, etc.
wow, really? lol...
Great rebuttal. Very convincing and backed up with a lot of facts
did you know Jordan went to North Carolina? He also wore #23, switched to 45, and then BACK to 23. It's true!
here. He was obviously made out to be the antagonist.
But he really built those Bulls teams, absent MJ obviously. Chicago doesn't win 6 titles if Krause doesn't deal for Pippen in that NBA draft day trade, draft Grant/BJ Armstrong/Kukoc, replace Collins with Phil as HC, sign Harper/Kerr, etc...
Now I still don't get why he was so eager to rebuild. And the rebuild was a disaster.
but this is tremendous tv and story telling. i don't see this a puff piece at all. it got on jordan for the gambling. it portrayed him as being an asshole teammate. It went over the steve kerr incident. what did they miss here?
as for the putting down gary payton. they were up big in that series. they were on the road. they just didn't have the hunger in those games. then they turned it back on when they went back home. i don't jordan planned to lose those games to win on father's day and i don't think they portrayed it like he lost them on purpose. they kinda made it seem like fate.
the guy never lost once he reached his peak. and he played teams that were LOADED his whole career. pistons, lakers, pacers, that magic team was insanely talented with shaq and penny, those knicks teams were very good. he didn't have these cakewalks to the finals every year.
he's the ultimate winner.
RE: I feel bad for Krause, in that he died & couldn't defend himself
here. He was obviously made out to be the antagonist.
But he really built those Bulls teams, absent MJ obviously. Chicago doesn't win 6 titles if Krause doesn't deal for Pippen in that NBA draft day trade, draft Grant/BJ Armstrong/Kukoc, replace Collins with Phil as HC, sign Harper/Kerr, etc...
Now I still don't get why he was so eager to rebuild. And the rebuild was a disaster.
I even think he gets a bit too much flack on the rebuild. He did draft pretty well for the most part, but made some bad trades. Drafted Brand and Artest in 99. Should have built around those two IMO, and added to it.
2000 draft was probably the worst talent I have seen in a draft. Kenyon Martin was #1 overall. Him, Michael Redd, and Jamal Crawford were the best players out of that draft. Bulls wound up with Fizer and Crawford.
2001 is where he went wrong. I was beyond pissed when they traded Brand. Brand averaged 20 and 10 both his first years. Krause, ever the scout fell in love with Tyson Chandler, and traded Brand for him. Also got Eddy Curry that draft.
2002 was Jay Williams. A fine pick (the next real impact player in top 10 was Amare 7 picks later).
2003 they drafted Hinrich in what was his last draft. Again, not bad when you look immediately past the draft.
It just shows how hard it is to build through the draft in the NBA. Warriors are the only team to do it recently.
Krause had bad luck with Jay Williams, Curry turned out to be lazy, and the Brand trade was horrific. He fell too much in love with talent. Chandler was supposed to be the next Garnett, and Curry the next Shaq.
& being completely confused why they drafted Fizer when they had Brand. That made no sense.
Sucks what happened to Jay Williams. Even though he was a Dukie, I think he would have been a good pro. I remember him having a big game vs. Kidd & the Nets that rookie season of his.
was that they couldn't attract any FAs. Krause did not have a good reputation from the Pippen issues, plus nobody was really rearing to play in Jordan's shadow.
& being completely confused why they drafted Fizer when they had Brand. That made no sense.
Sucks what happened to Jay Williams. Even though he was a Dukie, I think he would have been a good pro. I remember him having a big game vs. Kidd & the Nets that rookie season of his.
I think they would have been a completely different team with a healthy Jay Williams, Brand, Artest, Crawford, Brad Miller, Curry, and Hinrich. Although I guess I can't really count in Jay Williams because if they keep Brand, they might have gotten better than the two pick
Tim Floyd was the Bulls coach at the time. He recruited Fizer, and Fizer played a year at Iowa State with him. It was a curious pick even with that connection, but it was a terrible draft overall.
Brand was just a good solid player. 20 points, 10 rebounds, a block and a half a game. I don’t know why they replaced him. Just looking for that shiny new toy in Chandler/Curry. Turns out Brand has the best career out of all of them
You repeatedly post a bunch of slobbery love letters to the fucking Bulls on a Giants site, where many of the basketball fans are Knicks fans who despise Michael Jordan, and you didn't think you would get any pushback? Do you not have some Bulls site where you can sit around and blather about that team to your heart's content?
I expected adults that were interested and watched to post.
I expected whiny bitches like you, who already expressed their opinion to have the maturity to stay off. I guess my expectations were too high.
Stop acting like this wasn’t worthy of a non football thread. People ask what their favorite lawn mowers are. Sorry I wanted to discuss a highly watched show on TV.
RE: A shamless, puff piece via ESPN/Nike to prop up MJ
And the sad thing is that people still buy this junk.
Oh, and remind me, what exactly did Jordan win his 1st 6 years and his last 2?
Kinna hard when you don't have Hall of Fame players and the GOAT coach around you.
I don't know you, but based on this post I've concluded that you are either an imbecile, or an intense dislike of MJ has caused you to create an alternate reality to live in as a defense mechanism.
poisoning story. How would they know it was for Jordan? One of his handlers calls up a local pizza joint & says, 'Hey. I'd like to place an order for a pie for Michael Jordan. Yeah, that Michael Jordan, the Bulls superstar trying to beat your team. Thanks.'
That seems ridiculous. There's long been rumors he was hungover. And hell, if he was, he still played out of his mind. Haha.
poisoning story. How would they know it was for Jordan? One of his handlers calls up a local pizza joint & says, 'Hey. I'd like to place an order for a pie for Michael Jordan. Yeah, that Michael Jordan, the Bulls superstar trying to beat your team. Thanks.'
That seems ridiculous. There's long been rumors he was hungover. And hell, if he was, he still played out of his mind. Haha.
I just don't buy Jordan being hungover. The guy is competitive to a fault. I don't see him getting so drunk the night before (what he figured may be) a game his last finals, that he would still be hung over at game time. I would buy that for a lot of famous athletes, but not Jordan. All that guy wants in life is to beat everyone at everything.
He did go to AC between Games 1 & 2 of the '93 ECF so it's not like didn't have a track record of having fun between games. I buy him being hungover more than some Utah pizzeria poisoning his pizza. And again, how in God's name would they know it was for Jordan? You think MJ doesn't have a fake name at the hotel?
He did go to AC between Games 1 & 2 of the '93 ECF so it's not like didn't have a track record of having fun between games. I buy him being hungover more than some Utah pizzeria poisoning his pizza. And again, how in God's name would they know it was for Jordan? You think MJ doesn't have a fake name at the hotel?
not sure if they mentioned this, but why not just come out and say it was food poisoning back in 98? Why call it the flu?
Good point. Hell, I've had both & personally, food poisoning knocked me on my ass more.
Again, even if he was hungover, it's been 23 years. What's there to hide? I think a lot of people-myself included-would be like, 'Damn. MJ dropped something like 38 on the Jazz & hit a crucial 3 for the win? & he was hungover? This man is not human.' Haha.
It makes him look more pristine, like he was a victim. It's entirely possible he just had awful luck & got food poisoning, but I don't buy it.
Again, how did they know it was for Jordan? 5 guys deliver it to his room? His head security guy had a bad hunch yet MJ ate it? I'm not saying this is like a JFK conspiracy, but there's a lot of holes in the story.
If he was severely hungover & played like he did...again, damn. He's a monster. Most of us are in the fetal position when that hungover yet he went out & dominated. That's even more impressive.
being a sports fan, and watching the Last Dance in lockdown, and not enjoying it.
Would you watch some tongue-bath documentary about the '90s Cowboys? Maybe you would. I sure as shit wouldn't.
Jordan is likely the best player ever but I’ve not watched a moment. Not a big pro basketball fan anymore on top on Beijing a suffering Knick can. Top thst with the fact that Jordan is a pretty shitty person. Hes a compulsive gamblers who signs guy to 10 day contracts to pay his debts.
So no. Huge sports fan who also doesn’t give a flying fuck about him. Balmy for those who have enjoyed it so yay for you
After the game ended-with Marv saying something like 'A courageous, classic performance by the flu ridden Michael Jordan', we both were like, 'This guy is not human.'
I couldn't stand him. But he was insane. This 'Who is the GOAT? MJ or LeBron?'...GTFO with that ?. LeBron isn't even close.
That’s a load of crap. Just wasn’t his persona during his playing days. Just because he gambled between games 1 and 2 against the knicks (and claims he got back to nyc at a reasonable hour the night before - who knows) doesn’t mean he’s excessively drinking before finals games now. Makes no sense.
But he definitely reached on things to be ‘mad’ about Throughout his career - the george Karl dinner slight, the Russell slight, a supposed Bj Armstrong slight, this notion that he lit up the knicks in 93 because of the gambling questions .... please. He probably convinced himself it was food poisoning to be mad at all of Utah or something.
Anyway, if Charles Smith wasn’t such a pussy that series ends differently.
I miss the rivalries. I miss the physicality. I miss the low scoring defensive battles.
I know nostalgia kicks in the older you get & the Knicks have been garbage for 20 years, but I just enjoyed the league more back then.
Without question. The modern game has way more scoring and 3 point shooting and it’s BORING as all hell. Basketball sucks today compared to the 90’s. Man I’m still clinging to that short season finals run by the Knicks lol. Prior to Giants in 2007 that was the best playoff run of my lifetime. I loved that team.
and hate the bulls but this was great. The bulls rivalary was 20 years ago and it was barely a rivalry for them. I hated Jordan cause he always beat us but i still enjoyed watching him and this documentary was great. Who cares if it was a puff piece for jordan. If it wasnt a puff piece then they made it wrong, he is the greatest player of all time (or at least top 3) its not like a struggle to make him look good.
And in classic BBI fashion its hilarioius that people who thought this was the worst thing ever and dont intend to "watch a minute of it" as many have said still feel the need to come on here and trash it. When i see a thread about something i dont want to watch i usually just, ya know, dont click the thread. But hey i guess im weird like that.
and hate the bulls but this was great. The bulls rivalary was 20 years ago and it was barely a rivalry for them. I hated Jordan cause he always beat us but i still enjoyed watching him and this documentary was great. Who cares if it was a puff piece for jordan. If it wasnt a puff piece then they made it wrong, he is the greatest player of all time (or at least top 3) its not like a struggle to make him look good.
And in classic BBI fashion its hilarioius that people who thought this was the worst thing ever and dont intend to "watch a minute of it" as many have said still feel the need to come on here and trash it. When i see a thread about something i dont want to watch i usually just, ya know, dont click the thread. But hey i guess im weird like that.
Well said! It's amazing people take it so personally. Instead of appreciating that they saw the greatest player ever. But he was mean and gambled.
he said that he wanted to go for another championship. He didn't want to play in a rebuild, but I don't believe that if he said I will come back but you have to field a competitive team, they would have said "no thanks, go retire, we are tearing it down). He meant too much to the city and brought in too much revenue to the team for that to make an iota of sense.
Was it just that he wanted that specific team? Seems like he made a choice to not want to have a sub-optimal supporting cast.
I think he was delusional that everyone would have returned for another year. It was a convenient way to rip Krause/Reinsdorf that he thought Scottie would sign for a one-year deal just because Jordan had been doing so. The guy was the most underpaid player in the league, made $2.75 million in 98 and was finally finishing that 7/$18 contract. There is NO WAY he was signing a one-year deal with Chicago. It was time for him to get paid.
It was a very entertaining 10-part series, and much needed during this dearth of sports. It wasn't so much a documentary so much as infotainment given the approvals that Jordan had over everything, but it was still very entertaining to watch, no matter how many times they eliminated the Knicks.
I do think Kukoc, Horace, and Harper got short shrift in the doc and were much better pieces to the two runs than attention given to them during the series.
was coming back for one year on a below market deal. I could see the other guys, but not Pippen. Jordan is nuts if he thinks that, ha.
I think Krause was determined to move on from Pippen and Phil and Jordan didnt want to play without them. If Jackson came back i could see Jordan coming back, but without jax and pippen, no way.
I do t think jordan would’ve won the following year.
For those claiming it was a Jordan puff piece, they covered his gambling, rumors of responsibility for his father's death, some of his lowlights as a teammate with Steve Kerr, etc.
Considering he is up there with Babe Ruth and Ali as probably the best and most iconic athletes in American sports history, a documentary about the guy is probably not going to come across any other way.
I was surprised by how poorly Pippen came across in this though.
As a Knicks fan who witnessed all of Jordan's prime as a child in the 90's, I didn't like him then because he crushed my dreams many times. As an adult, I've grown to appreciate and respect what I was watching at the time, which is the greatest basketball player ever. Hands down.
Also, I think 1980-2000 is the greatest 20 years in NBA history. Bird and Magic started it. You had Celtics, Lakers and Pistons dynasties. Jordan came along and started the Bulls dynasty. The Dream Team. You had a dynasty of big men; Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq, Zo, David Robinson and to a lesser extent even guys like Smits and Mutombo.
Some of the best teams in the East couldn't sniff a title with Jordan around. Knicks-Bulls-Pacers-Heat rivalries. Stockton and Malone, Barkley. He has rings that would have otherwise gone to most of his Dream Team teammates. Teams could have "enforcers" like Oakley and the Davis Bros. Low scoring, defensive battles that were awesome.
By the end of the era you had guys like Kobe, Duncan, Kidd, Iverson and Carter. The next Lakers dynasty was beginning.
but i thought his fathers' death was covered as a pretty clear case of a random, violent act.
Also why do you think Pippen came across poorly? It was well covered how grossly underpaid he was, and so I thought the "holdout" in 1998 was completely justified - pretty normal course of action these days anyway - not to mention the way his health starting giving out late in the year, notably the back injury during the Finals, it was a good thing he skipped the first 40 or whatever games that year when they didnt need him anyway. That period of time also kept Rodman engaged too.
The other time they made him look bad was when he refused to enter the game when Kukoc got the final shot vs NYK... it is what it is.
Were there other examples? Jordan was pretty clear throughout that he couldnt have had the success he had without "Pip"...
but i thought his fathers' death was covered as a pretty clear case of a random, violent act.
Also why do you think Pippen came across poorly? It was well covered how grossly underpaid he was, and so I thought the "holdout" in 1998 was completely justified - pretty normal course of action these days anyway - not to mention the way his health starting giving out late in the year, notably the back injury during the Finals, it was a good thing he skipped the first 40 or whatever games that year when they didnt need him anyway. That period of time also kept Rodman engaged too.
The other time they made him look bad was when he refused to enter the game when Kukoc got the final shot vs NYK... it is what it is.
Were there other examples? Jordan was pretty clear throughout that he couldnt have had the success he had without "Pip"...
I was referencing the Kukoc thing. I also think he was fixated on the Krause stuff but I guess if I felt I was cheated then out of millions that would still be in my bank account.
I guess as a Knicks fan I always disliked Scottie more than Jordan even. I think it was the dunk and taunt over Ewing.
to return. It still makes no sense why Krause wanted to break that dynasty up.
the owner was cheap. Probably not any more complicated than that. Jordan was paid $33 million in his last year and the rest of the team was due to get paid, including Pippen who got a huge deal from Houston.
I am surprised Reinsdorf hasn't received more criticism for this. If I was the owner I was paying and doing whatever it took to keep that team together. But hey at least he patted himself on the back for paying MJ his 3 million NBA salary while he played baseball....
For those claiming it was a Jordan puff piece, they covered his gambling, rumors of responsibility for his father's death, some of his lowlights as a teammate with Steve Kerr, etc.
Considering he is up there with Babe Ruth and Ali as probably the best and most iconic athletes in American sports history, a documentary about the guy is probably not going to come across any other way.
I was surprised by how poorly Pippen came across in this though.
As a Knicks fan who witnessed all of Jordan's prime as a child in the 90's, I didn't like him then because he crushed my dreams many times. As an adult, I've grown to appreciate and respect what I was watching at the time, which is the greatest basketball player ever. Hands down.
Also, I think 1980-2000 is the greatest 20 years in NBA history. Bird and Magic started it. You had Celtics, Lakers and Pistons dynasties. Jordan came along and started the Bulls dynasty. The Dream Team. You had a dynasty of big men; Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq, Zo, David Robinson and to a lesser extent even guys like Smits and Mutombo.
Some of the best teams in the East couldn't sniff a title with Jordan around. Knicks-Bulls-Pacers-Heat rivalries. Stockton and Malone, Barkley. He has rings that would have otherwise gone to most of his Dream Team teammates. Teams could have "enforcers" like Oakley and the Davis Bros. Low scoring, defensive battles that were awesome.
By the end of the era you had guys like Kobe, Duncan, Kidd, Iverson and Carter. The next Lakers dynasty was beginning.
So even though you are a Knicks fan, you are able to appreciate and respect what MJ did 20 years who? Interesting.
about the chronology of it. You had two separate stories. The main one was the 1998 season ("the Last Dance") when they gave cameras unprecedented access and it was clearly the most interesting season from a drama /soap-opera standpoint with Jerry Krause. The other story was that of the full dynasty going all the way back to when MJ was first drafted. Both stories were going in perfect chronological order, they were just jumping back and forth between the two. I didn't find it confusing nor annoying at all, personally.
For those claiming it was a Jordan puff piece, they covered his gambling, rumors of responsibility for his father's death, some of his lowlights as a teammate with Steve Kerr, etc.
Considering he is up there with Babe Ruth and Ali as probably the best and most iconic athletes in American sports history, a documentary about the guy is probably not going to come across any other way.
I was surprised by how poorly Pippen came across in this though.
As a Knicks fan who witnessed all of Jordan's prime as a child in the 90's, I didn't like him then because he crushed my dreams many times. As an adult, I've grown to appreciate and respect what I was watching at the time, which is the greatest basketball player ever. Hands down.
Also, I think 1980-2000 is the greatest 20 years in NBA history. Bird and Magic started it. You had Celtics, Lakers and Pistons dynasties. Jordan came along and started the Bulls dynasty. The Dream Team. You had a dynasty of big men; Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq, Zo, David Robinson and to a lesser extent even guys like Smits and Mutombo.
Some of the best teams in the East couldn't sniff a title with Jordan around. Knicks-Bulls-Pacers-Heat rivalries. Stockton and Malone, Barkley. He has rings that would have otherwise gone to most of his Dream Team teammates. Teams could have "enforcers" like Oakley and the Davis Bros. Low scoring, defensive battles that were awesome.
By the end of the era you had guys like Kobe, Duncan, Kidd, Iverson and Carter. The next Lakers dynasty was beginning.
So even though you are a Knicks fan, you are able to appreciate and respect what MJ did 20 years who? Interesting.
Yea. Greatness is greatness. I mean, what I'm most mad about is Jordan wasn't a Knick, but such is life.
What Jordan did to the Knicks he did to everyone. And in the years since if anything I've become defensive of Jordan over guys like Kobe (who I respected) and LeBron (who I respect much less) because I feel the prime of Jordan's era was much more challenging than what the league is today. For all the reasons I stated above. It's a much softer, finesse league today.
RE: RE: RE: Was surprised MJ was so adamant he wanted
to return. It still makes no sense why Krause wanted to break that dynasty up.
the owner was cheap. Probably not any more complicated than that. Jordan was paid $33 million in his last year and the rest of the team was due to get paid, including Pippen who got a huge deal from Houston.
I am surprised Reinsdorf hasn't received more criticism for this. If I was the owner I was paying and doing whatever it took to keep that team together. But hey at least he patted himself on the back for paying MJ his 3 million NBA salary while he played baseball....
MJ wanted the criticism to fall firmly on Krause, so that's what we got.
For those claiming it was a Jordan puff piece, they covered his gambling, rumors of responsibility for his father's death, some of his lowlights as a teammate with Steve Kerr, etc.
Considering he is up there with Babe Ruth and Ali as probably the best and most iconic athletes in American sports history, a documentary about the guy is probably not going to come across any other way.
I was surprised by how poorly Pippen came across in this though.
all the stuff about his contract was a bit much. Would have been nice if they had somebody come out say, "nobody forced him to sign a 7 year deal". And yes, he was underpaid, but he only became way underpaid relative to the other stars in the league in the last couple of years of the deal.
I thought it was a little odd that JR was so adamant about holding Pippen to his deal, and so many others too... but Jordan plays baseball for a year, the tune changes to "he made me and so many others a lot of money... we paid him anyway"
I do take your point that Pippen's deal, while underpaid, was what... a little over $2 mil/year or something while Jordan for most of those years was 'only' paid $3.8
For those claiming it was a Jordan puff piece, they covered his gambling, rumors of responsibility for his father's death, some of his lowlights as a teammate with Steve Kerr, etc.
LOL, this was absolutely a puff piece for MJ. This guys entire world is "image". He controlled the entire narrative.
Sure, they talked about his warts...and then promptly had 10 people to downplay the topics or downright refute them.
Gambling? Totally not a big deal, didn't interfere with his playing, he only gambled this much because he's rich and has such a competitive fire, had absolutely nothing to do with is retirement, totally normal, zero to do with his father's death
Unpopular teammate? All the teammates they interviewed revered the guy. Even the guy he "tormented" Scott Burrell had nothing bad to say about MJ. And when we did get a criticism ("He was an asshole") it was followed by a compliment ("He was a hell of a teammate").
Steve Kerr Issue? LOL, could we have glossed over that anymore? Tiptoed around what actually happened followed by a slobberfest by Kerr himself.
Jordan is also the only person that they filmed viewing other people's comments and allowing him a chance to comment or refute or downplay...who else did they give that opportunity to? Oh...nobody.
It's not hard to see what they did here. Still loved the piece, but it's totally puff.
"Jordan totally would have made the majors in MLB!" - despite being the worst player on that AA team...BUT SURE!!
I think it sucks that Krause wasn't around to defend himself.
he was upset about being called a snitch, had issues with how Pip was portrayed, opined on the editorial nature of the program, and weighed in on Jordan's treatment of some players.
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The interview concluded with Grant being asked why he repeatedly referred to "The Last Dance" as a "so-called documentary." Some have pointed to the fact that two of Jordan's closest confidantes, Estee Portnoy and Curtis Polk, were executive producers on the docuseries as an indication that Jordan had final say and creative control over the project. Director Jason Hehir has pushed back against that criticism, but Grant didn't hesitate to discuss what he believes to be a biased point of view in favor of Jordan.
"When that so-called documentary is about one person, basically, and he has the last word on what's going to be put out there ... it's not a documentary," Grant said. "It's his narrative of what happens in the last, quote-unquote, dance. That's not a documentary, because a whole bunch of things was cut out, edited out. So that's why I call it a so-called documentary."
and probably not the easiest person to be around in a team environment. And all of that harsh criticism that we all already knew seemed to be missing or refuted or excused in the documentary.
Puff piece. It's okay to admit it. He's still the GOAT. But totally a puff piece.
RE: I don't doubt that Jordan was hard on a lot of teammates
and probably not the easiest person to be around in a team environment. And all of that harsh criticism that we all already knew seemed to be missing or refuted or excused in the documentary.
Puff piece. It's okay to admit it. He's still the GOAT. But totally a puff piece.
I personally disagree a bit. I felt like they gave a voice to every criticism that he's been known for over the years. Including the whole bit about him not voicing his opinion about that segregationist politician, but I know the other main criticism is just that he was unnecessarily an asshole to a lot of people including fans, opponents, and even teammates. (Regarding fans: remember they showed him turning down that French guy asking for an autograph? At first it's like "wow dick move" but IMO the documentary made you really understand how claustrophobic it can feel to constantly be followed by everyone everywhere you go and asked for autographs constantly.)
But let's talk about him being an asshole to his teammates: yes, he was hard on a lot of teammates, that's true, but I think they covered that with plenty of material, and if any past teammate wanted to sit down for an interview and criticize him for this or that, I guarantee they would have included it in this doc just to spark some controversy. But it's clear that after all these years have passed, no one has the balls to come out and say he was a real terrible asshole, because they all seem to look back and be grateful for the fact that he was the reason they won a championship or multiple championships. It's hard for anyone after-the-fact to come out now and say "Jordan was an asshole" or "Jordan was too hard on us" etc. because they realize they'll look weak and ungrateful of the fact that Jordan running a tight ship had a lot to do with them winning so much.
I honestly think that's why the end of Episode 7 was the most pivotal moment in the whole thing... he basically said (paraphrasing) "yeah I realize a lot of people didn't view me as a nice guy... but winning has a price, and that's the way I play the game. If you don't want to play that way, then don't play that way." And you can see he's tearing up as he's saying this. He also said at other points he was purposely being hard on them so as to test them and test their character and prepare them for playing very tough, physical (and trash-talking) teams like Detroit and NY who were their biggest threats in the East.
Let's take a couple examples...
He was particularly hard on Scott Burrell and I think the documentary did a good job of showing that. He was continuously calling him "ho" and "bitch", and Jordan said later (as I mentioned above) he was doing that to try to toughen Scott up. Was it necessary? Maybe not. But then again who are we to question MJ considering he came away with 6 titles in 8 years (while taking 1.5 years off from the game mind you).
Other example: the fact he was very hard on Steve Kerr and even punched him in the face in the middle of a practice. All these years later Kerr feels zero resentment about that... he said he felt like MJ was testing him and he withstood the test and it was a huge part of their relationship being as strong as it was for the 3 championships they won after that.
I'll admit-- I thought MJ was a bit hypocritical at times. He was sitting there clearly irritated by the fact he felt Steve Kerr and Luc Longley weren't "taking things serious enough" when they first joined the team just because they'd come in laughing or joking at the beginning of practice, even though MJ himself does a lot of laughing and joking at practice and later on when playing golf with the team says "Phil knows we need rest, a lot of other coaches would be too mean-spirited to allow at day off like this." It's like he wanted people to rest, laugh, joke around when he wanted to, but also be 110% serious and working overtime when he wanted to. But again-- who am I to question his method(s) when he not only was the GOAT in terms of individual performance, but those 90s Bulls IMO were the pinnacle of greatness achieved by a *team* in all NBA history (I know the 60s Celtics are also in the conversation but I give the 90s Bulls more credit for the competition they had to face).
One last thing-- on him being an asshole to opponents... I think Isaiah not shaking their hands after the loss was plenty reason for MJ to hold a grudge against him, and I also do believe that MJ wasn't the only one who wanted Isaiah off the Dream Team-- Isaiah was generally an unlikable guy with a lot of the other players as well.
And what about that story about him making up the whole "Nice game, Mike" story and using that to completely embarrass that one young player? I thought that was pretty weird and didn't portray him in a good light, but at the same time you just kind of laugh and say "This guy was flat out insanely competitive-- he didn't want to just win, he wanted to beat everybody into the ground. And it's that mentality that led him to having the career he had."
I thought it was also crazy how he got right up in Larry Bird's hear after beating the Pacers and said "You bitch, fuck you"... I know he was joking, but clearly he was a bit of a sore winner and was loved kicking people while they were down.
So, again-- I think they did plenty to show MJ's asshole side, and it's up to us to take the good with the bad and decide what we think of his character. I disagree that they kept it 100% a puff piece and all positive.
If I missed any criticism or awful story of MJ that they purposely left out, I'd love to know it... maybe there are things I'm missing or haven't heard that really portray him as a terrible awful dude. Really I'd love to hear anything and everything I might be missing.
Perhaps I went in thinking he was going to be worse, but I didn't think MJ was THAT big of a dick to his teammates. Yes, he rode Burrell pretty hard, but it's pretty apparent how he joked with him that he actually liked him. You don't ride someone that hard who you can't stand or don't think they're worth the time. As Purdue said, yeah he could be an asshole, but he was also a great teammate. Kerr even said his bond with MJ was tighter after their fight.
I had read Halberstam's 'Playing for Keeps' so I knew a lot of the stories, but I found it was a good doc. And I don't buy for a second Grant wasn't the one dishing that info to Sam Smith. Grant was incredibly jealous of the attention MJ & Pippen got.
That’s a load of crap. Just wasn’t his persona during his playing days. Just because he gambled between games 1 and 2 against the knicks (and claims he got back to nyc at a reasonable hour the night before - who knows) doesn’t mean he’s excessively drinking before finals games now. Makes no sense.
But he definitely reached on things to be ‘mad’ about Throughout his career - the george Karl dinner slight, the Russell slight, a supposed Bj Armstrong slight, this notion that he lit up the knicks in 93 because of the gambling questions .... please. He probably convinced himself it was food poisoning to be mad at all of Utah or something.
Anyway, if Charles Smith wasn’t such a pussy that series ends differently.
/still not over it
Fuck Charles Smith and fck the refs for not blowing the whistle once on what was like 4 or 5 fouls. But, I still could see him only hitting 1 of 2 if he got the call anyway.
But speaking of Burrell at one point Jordan said he did that because he knew they’d need him at some point - I don’t recall in the documentary them giving Burrell a defining moment?
My hazy memory is that SB had a few good games but I don’t recall that thread in the series at least leading anywhere other than hazing embarrassment for him?
Does it really get any better in hours 3-10?
I also had no idea about the "Flu Game" really being food poisoning. They seemed to infer that the food poisoning was done on purpose, at least that's how I took it. Not sure if anyone else feels that way.
Didn't watch a minute of it, but from what I've read it really wasn't a documentary. Jordan had to give the OK of the material.
I don’t buy it. If you are trying to poison him, you don’t have 5 people showing up. My guess is they all showed up just to see MJ. It was a late night (10:30 order), and Utah doesn’t have much of a night life. My guess is something was left out too long. Especially after seeing the documentary (didn’t realize MJ ate the whole pizza), the intentional food poisoning theory seems less plausible
I’m not sure what more the documentary could’ve been besides people wanting it to make MJ look bad. On the court that’s impossible. Off the court, maybe but that wouldn’t change what he and that team did in the 90s.
Utah is notorious for being a pain in the butt to play at for opposing fans. Some players have come out and spoken about certain comments the fans have made. Didn't Westbrook and a fan get into it recently?
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regarding it being intentional, there have been conspiracy theories involving that for years. Utah fans were pretty rough (you saw MJ’s children talking about how their mother wouldn’t even let them go to Utah home games), so I think that fed into the conspiracies
Utah is notorious for being a pain in the butt to play at for opposing fans. Some players have come out and spoken about certain comments the fans have made. Didn't Westbrook and a fan get into it recently?
Yes. Guy got a lifetime ban if I recall.
That’s how they handled Rodman. Phil Jackson really handled it properly. If you have a young team, and a young player does that, you are handling that differently. Bulls had a veteran team, and Rodman was one of a kind. He showed up in the games when they needed it most. As Jackson alluded to, you weren’t going to start Dickie Simpson’s against Malone
Yeah, Jordan talked about his return to practice and Phil was making them run and Jordan told the team to take it slow so Rodman could ease back in. But Rodman picked up right where he left off and was leading the pack. Rodman's back story is really something. He hit a growth spurt after graduating HS and then average something like 22/12 in college. I also loved hearing him talk about his film study of shooters and the spin of the ball and getting into the right position to get the rebound. My AAU coach always talked about that.
That being said, it was still a great watch.
Yeah, the fact Krause announced before the season that it would be Phil's last is odd. But I also think it was ego driven and Krause wanted to prove he played more of a roll in the success than he was given.
Was texting with friends about this last night. If they stayed together, they probably win in '99 due to the shortened season and the rest it would have given them. Which makes me wonder what the domino effect would have been around the league. Specifically the Lakers
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Following his absence too.
Yeah, Jordan talked about his return to practice and Phil was making them run and Jordan told the team to take it slow so Rodman could ease back in. But Rodman picked up right where he left off and was leading the pack. Rodman's back story is really something. He hit a growth spurt after graduating HS and then average something like 22/12 in college. I also loved hearing him talk about his film study of shooters and the spin of the ball and getting into the right position to get the rebound. My AAU coach always talked about that.
That was the trip to Vegas, not the skipping out to go to WWE during the Finals. Rodman has a 30/30. I need to watch that.
That was the biggest thing I learned too. I had read that Jordan wanted to come back, but I didn’t realize how adamant he was about it. I really wish there was more about that. I could go for a part 11 on that one.
If you recall Reinsdorf being interviewed at the end, he was really adamant about not wanting to pay all these big salaries for players that were role players on a championship team. If I recall from 20 years ago, it was a luxury tax thing.
So Reinsdorf was really fine with it.
Krause has a scout’s background. I think he preferred team building rather than team maintaining, and his ego did get in the way.
I don’t know how I feel about it to this day. On the one hand, it would have been nice to go after another championship. But on the other hand, it was nice to go out on top.
It’s kind of hard to tell what would have happened the next year, as you get into a butterfly effect game. The Knicks were tough, the Pacers were tough. Who knows
Jesus! I had never heard that. Sounds like Duke fans
eh, it seemed like the Kerr story (which was already widely known) was shoehorned in to fill time. It was as if the director just said "hey, this is interesting, let's just add it".
the owner was cheap. Probably not any more complicated than that. Jordan was paid $33 million in his last year and the rest of the team was due to get paid, including Pippen who got a huge deal from Houston.
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Even though I knew about his old man. I believe ASU students chanted 'PLO!' at Kerr when he was at the FT post his father's death. Talk about low class, my God.
eh, it seemed like the Kerr story (which was already widely known) was shoehorned in to fill time. It was as if the director just said "hey, this is interesting, let's just add it".
I dont know, they were setting up the storyline for Kerr's '97 title clinching shot... plus you had access to the current Warriors HC who is popular these days too so i didnt have a problem with it.
I thought it was well done... yeah obviously a little too much from Jordan's perspective and not always reality - thought some of the putdowns of Clyde Drexler, the Knicks teams, the poor rookie on the Jazz who may have said something to Jordan about his retirement (but we know Jordan lied and made up stories at times to generate inner bulletin board material) -- making it sound like George Karl didnt say hi to him at a dinner one night and thats why Jordan played well against the Sonics (...ok...)... or inferring that Gary Payton didnt actually play well against him in games 4-5, insinuating that Jordan just wanted to purposely lose so he could win the title on Fathers Day on the home court ... all seemed like a stretch.
But incredibly entertaining series, I had no issues with the jumping around between years and detailing all of their title runs. And just too bad its over now. Not sure what ESPN was trying to say midway through about detailing Jackson's 5 Lakers titles in a future documentary (i think it was a joke?) - not sure how you do that without Kobe unfortunately.
And the sad thing is that people still buy this junk.
Oh, and remind me, what exactly did Jordan win his 1st 6 years and his last 2?
Kinna hard when you don't have Hall of Fame players and the GOAT coach around you.
And the sad thing is that people still buy this junk.
Oh, and remind me, what exactly did Jordan win his 1st 6 years and his last 2?
Kinna hard when you don't have Hall of Fame players and the GOAT coach around you.
LOL....
In the world of pandemics and the uncertainly of life, at least we can always count on Stan being a complete douchebag....
IGAWA! TIGER!
And the sad thing is that people still buy this junk.
Oh, and remind me, what exactly did Jordan win his 1st 6 years and his last 2?
Kinna hard when you don't have Hall of Fame players and the GOAT coach around you.
Genius right here. Michael Jordan is terrible because he didn’t win championships at the age of 38 and 39 with the Wizards, after a three year retirement.
As for not winning his first few years in the league, his 3rd year, the most notable players on the team were what? Dave Corzine, Brad Sellers, and Charles Oakley?
How many championships did Kobe win without Shaq? How many championships did Lebron win before teaming up with another HOFer, and an All-Star?
How many championships did Kobe win without Shaq?
I agree generally with your post but thought this one was a little odd - he won two without Shaq
Oh, and remind me, what exactly did Lebron win his 1st 7 years and his last 4?
Kinna hard when you don't have Hall of Fame players around you. The coach...eh. Overrated.
Stooge.
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Like they've been doing for the last 30 years.
And the sad thing is that people still buy this junk.
Oh, and remind me, what exactly did Jordan win his 1st 6 years and his last 2?
Kinna hard when you don't have Hall of Fame players and the GOAT coach around you.
Genius right here. Michael Jordan is terrible because he didn’t win championships at the age of 38 and 39 with the Wizards, after a three year retirement.
As for not winning his first few years in the league, his 3rd year, the most notable players on the team were what? Dave Corzine, Brad Sellers, and Charles Oakley?
How many championships did Kobe win without Shaq? How many championships did Lebron win before teaming up with another HOFer, and an All-Star?
Yes, I realize he won titles without Shaq. He won none before teaming up with Shaq, and won 3 of 5 with Shaq. Kobe also didn’t win the last 3 or 4 years of his career.
My overall point is that Stan is apparently calling Jordan a failure for not doing what any NBA player in history has been expected to do, and none has. Really, we expect a young Jordan to beat the loaded Pistons, Lakers, and Celtics with no one around him?
there is no such thing as a puff piece on a guy that won 3 straight twice and won every other accolade you can in sports--- has his own brand, and is the basis for what sports marketing is today.
The team wasn’t sustainable. It was an old team and a lot of them started declining fast. Rodman played less than 40 games total after that season. Pippin, Longley, Harper all declined rapidly afterward. Jordan was showing early signs of decline.
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to return. It still makes no sense why Krause wanted to break that dynasty up.
The team wasn’t sustainable. It was an old team and a lot of them started declining fast. Rodman played less than 40 games total after that season. Pippin, Longley, Harper all declined rapidly afterward. Jordan was showing early signs of decline.
There's a good article today on ESPN.com about that - Reinsdorf is interviewed for it. Bottom line, Pippen wasnt coming back - he got $67 million from the Rockets that offseason. Plus apparently Jordan cut himself pretty badly with a cigar cutter that offseason too.
follow up article on why Bulls werent coming back - ( New Window )
[quote] In comment 14906050 KDavies said:
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In comment 14906021 Stan in LA said:
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Like they've been doing for the last 30 years.
And the sad thing is that people still buy this junk.
Oh, and remind me, what exactly did Jordan win his 1st 6 years and his last 2?
Kinna hard when you don't have Hall of Fame players and the GOAT coach around you.
Genius right here. Michael Jordan is terrible because he didn’t win championships at the age of 38 and 39 with the Wizards, after a three year retirement.
As for not winning his first few years in the league, his 3rd year, the most notable players on the team were what? Dave Corzine, Brad Sellers, and Charles Oakley?
How many championships did Kobe win without Shaq? How many championships did Lebron win before teaming up with another HOFer, and an All-Star?
Yes, I realize he won titles without Shaq. He won none before teaming up with Shaq, and won 3 of 5 with Shaq. Kobe also didn’t win the last 3 or 4 years of his career.
My overall point is that Stan is apparently calling Jordan a failure for not doing what any NBA player in history has been expected to do, and none has. Really, we expect a young Jordan to beat the loaded Pistons, Lakers, and Celtics with no one around him?
I agree with your premise, but your memory if failing you. There was no "before Shaq", Kobe was drafted in '96. The same year Shaq joned the Lakers.
I remember back in the 60's it was not uncommon for scores to be in the 130's. No telling what Jordan could average in todays game.
For me, it was interesting to get a glimpse as to what went on in the locker rooms.
there is no such thing as a puff piece on a guy that won 3 straight twice and won every other accolade you can in sports--- has his own brand, and is the basis for what sports marketing is today.
100% this! I hated that man and team and still can't die a happy man because the Knicks haven't won a title in my lifetime. However, I can appreciate the greatness I witnessed now that sports isn't my entire life like it was when I was growing up in the 90's
Forget Jordan and Pippin. Jordan alone exceeded the salary cap.
There was no luxury tax back then, so that wasn’t an issue. But being capped out would have prevented them from signing any free agents to replace aging players. Even if you accept the dubious assumption that Jordan and Pippin could have maintained their play going forward, how do you put other talent around them?
The summer before the last championship, Reinsdorf and Krause met with others in the organization, including the trainers. It was pretty much decided that it was the last hurrah at that time.
Krause gets ripped for his treatment of Pippen, but Pippen never averaged more than 15 points after he left the Bulls. He was at getting towards the end of his productive days as well.
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Pippen would have taken a one-year-deal to try and win #7 was total nonsense. Pippen was going to take the biggest contract. If the Bulls would have matched what Houston gave him, maybe he stays but I think it's clear Reinsdorf was not going to pay up to keep the band together. Jordan and Pippen alone would have exceeded the cap. His luxury tax bill was going to be insane.
Forget Jordan and Pippin. Jordan alone exceeded the salary cap.
There was no luxury tax back then, so that wasn’t an issue. But being capped out would have prevented them from signing any free agents to replace aging players. Even if you accept the dubious assumption that Jordan and Pippin could have maintained their play going forward, how do you put other talent around them?
luxury tax was implemented as part of new CBA after 98/99 lockout. I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume Reinsdorf had a hunch it was coming.
Regardless, if Krause was half the GM he thought he was, surrounding MJ/Pippen with passable role players and ring chasing vets may have been difficult but not impossible.
Would you watch some tongue-bath documentary about the '90s Cowboys? Maybe you would. I sure as shit wouldn't.
wow, really? lol...
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Traded for Pippen, drafted Grant, drafted Armstrong, traded Oakley for Cartwright, replaced Collins with Phil Jackson, traded for Rodman, drafted Kukoc, signed Ron Harper, etc.
wow, really? lol...
Great rebuttal. Very convincing and backed up with a lot of facts
2017 article.
Also, please list me all GMs who have 6 titles under their belt
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In comment 14906147 KDavies said:
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Traded for Pippen, drafted Grant, drafted Armstrong, traded Oakley for Cartwright, replaced Collins with Phil Jackson, traded for Rodman, drafted Kukoc, signed Ron Harper, etc.
wow, really? lol...
Great rebuttal. Very convincing and backed up with a lot of facts
did you know Jordan went to North Carolina? He also wore #23, switched to 45, and then BACK to 23. It's true!
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being a sports fan, and watching the Last Dance in lockdown, and not enjoying it.
Would you watch some tongue-bath documentary about the '90s Cowboys? Maybe you would. I sure as shit wouldn't.
I would because I enjoy football and it already happened. Again, you didn’t want to watch it. No one cares so get off this thread.
But he really built those Bulls teams, absent MJ obviously. Chicago doesn't win 6 titles if Krause doesn't deal for Pippen in that NBA draft day trade, draft Grant/BJ Armstrong/Kukoc, replace Collins with Phil as HC, sign Harper/Kerr, etc...
Now I still don't get why he was so eager to rebuild. And the rebuild was a disaster.
as for the putting down gary payton. they were up big in that series. they were on the road. they just didn't have the hunger in those games. then they turned it back on when they went back home. i don't jordan planned to lose those games to win on father's day and i don't think they portrayed it like he lost them on purpose. they kinda made it seem like fate.
the guy never lost once he reached his peak. and he played teams that were LOADED his whole career. pistons, lakers, pacers, that magic team was insanely talented with shaq and penny, those knicks teams were very good. he didn't have these cakewalks to the finals every year.
he's the ultimate winner.
But he really built those Bulls teams, absent MJ obviously. Chicago doesn't win 6 titles if Krause doesn't deal for Pippen in that NBA draft day trade, draft Grant/BJ Armstrong/Kukoc, replace Collins with Phil as HC, sign Harper/Kerr, etc...
Now I still don't get why he was so eager to rebuild. And the rebuild was a disaster.
I even think he gets a bit too much flack on the rebuild. He did draft pretty well for the most part, but made some bad trades. Drafted Brand and Artest in 99. Should have built around those two IMO, and added to it.
2000 draft was probably the worst talent I have seen in a draft. Kenyon Martin was #1 overall. Him, Michael Redd, and Jamal Crawford were the best players out of that draft. Bulls wound up with Fizer and Crawford.
2001 is where he went wrong. I was beyond pissed when they traded Brand. Brand averaged 20 and 10 both his first years. Krause, ever the scout fell in love with Tyson Chandler, and traded Brand for him. Also got Eddy Curry that draft.
2002 was Jay Williams. A fine pick (the next real impact player in top 10 was Amare 7 picks later).
2003 they drafted Hinrich in what was his last draft. Again, not bad when you look immediately past the draft.
It just shows how hard it is to build through the draft in the NBA. Warriors are the only team to do it recently.
Krause had bad luck with Jay Williams, Curry turned out to be lazy, and the Brand trade was horrific. He fell too much in love with talent. Chandler was supposed to be the next Garnett, and Curry the next Shaq.
Sucks what happened to Jay Williams. Even though he was a Dukie, I think he would have been a good pro. I remember him having a big game vs. Kidd & the Nets that rookie season of his.
Sucks what happened to Jay Williams. Even though he was a Dukie, I think he would have been a good pro. I remember him having a big game vs. Kidd & the Nets that rookie season of his.
I think they would have been a completely different team with a healthy Jay Williams, Brand, Artest, Crawford, Brad Miller, Curry, and Hinrich. Although I guess I can't really count in Jay Williams because if they keep Brand, they might have gotten better than the two pick
No
Brand was just a good solid player. 20 points, 10 rebounds, a block and a half a game. I don’t know why they replaced him. Just looking for that shiny new toy in Chandler/Curry. Turns out Brand has the best career out of all of them
Stop acting like this wasn’t worthy of a non football thread. People ask what their favorite lawn mowers are. Sorry I wanted to discuss a highly watched show on TV.
And the sad thing is that people still buy this junk.
Oh, and remind me, what exactly did Jordan win his 1st 6 years and his last 2?
Kinna hard when you don't have Hall of Fame players and the GOAT coach around you.
I don't know you, but based on this post I've concluded that you are either an imbecile, or an intense dislike of MJ has caused you to create an alternate reality to live in as a defense mechanism.
That seems ridiculous. There's long been rumors he was hungover. And hell, if he was, he still played out of his mind. Haha.
That seems ridiculous. There's long been rumors he was hungover. And hell, if he was, he still played out of his mind. Haha.
I just don't buy Jordan being hungover. The guy is competitive to a fault. I don't see him getting so drunk the night before (what he figured may be) a game his last finals, that he would still be hung over at game time. I would buy that for a lot of famous athletes, but not Jordan. All that guy wants in life is to beat everyone at everything.
not sure if they mentioned this, but why not just come out and say it was food poisoning back in 98? Why call it the flu?
Again, even if he was hungover, it's been 23 years. What's there to hide? I think a lot of people-myself included-would be like, 'Damn. MJ dropped something like 38 on the Jazz & hit a crucial 3 for the win? & he was hungover? This man is not human.' Haha.
Again, how did they know it was for Jordan? 5 guys deliver it to his room? His head security guy had a bad hunch yet MJ ate it? I'm not saying this is like a JFK conspiracy, but there's a lot of holes in the story.
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being a sports fan, and watching the Last Dance in lockdown, and not enjoying it.
Would you watch some tongue-bath documentary about the '90s Cowboys? Maybe you would. I sure as shit wouldn't.
Jordan is likely the best player ever but I’ve not watched a moment. Not a big pro basketball fan anymore on top on Beijing a suffering Knick can. Top thst with the fact that Jordan is a pretty shitty person. Hes a compulsive gamblers who signs guy to 10 day contracts to pay his debts.
So no. Huge sports fan who also doesn’t give a flying fuck about him. Balmy for those who have enjoyed it so yay for you
I couldn't stand him. But he was insane. This 'Who is the GOAT? MJ or LeBron?'...GTFO with that ?. LeBron isn't even close.
But he definitely reached on things to be ‘mad’ about Throughout his career - the george Karl dinner slight, the Russell slight, a supposed Bj Armstrong slight, this notion that he lit up the knicks in 93 because of the gambling questions .... please. He probably convinced himself it was food poisoning to be mad at all of Utah or something.
Anyway, if Charles Smith wasn’t such a pussy that series ends differently.
/still not over it
I know nostalgia kicks in the older you get & the Knicks have been garbage for 20 years, but I just enjoyed the league more back then.
I know nostalgia kicks in the older you get & the Knicks have been garbage for 20 years, but I just enjoyed the league more back then.
And in classic BBI fashion its hilarioius that people who thought this was the worst thing ever and dont intend to "watch a minute of it" as many have said still feel the need to come on here and trash it. When i see a thread about something i dont want to watch i usually just, ya know, dont click the thread. But hey i guess im weird like that.
And in classic BBI fashion its hilarioius that people who thought this was the worst thing ever and dont intend to "watch a minute of it" as many have said still feel the need to come on here and trash it. When i see a thread about something i dont want to watch i usually just, ya know, dont click the thread. But hey i guess im weird like that.
Well said! It's amazing people take it so personally. Instead of appreciating that they saw the greatest player ever. But he was mean and gambled.
Was it just that he wanted that specific team? Seems like he made a choice to not want to have a sub-optimal supporting cast.
I think he was delusional that everyone would have returned for another year. It was a convenient way to rip Krause/Reinsdorf that he thought Scottie would sign for a one-year deal just because Jordan had been doing so. The guy was the most underpaid player in the league, made $2.75 million in 98 and was finally finishing that 7/$18 contract. There is NO WAY he was signing a one-year deal with Chicago. It was time for him to get paid.
It was a very entertaining 10-part series, and much needed during this dearth of sports. It wasn't so much a documentary so much as infotainment given the approvals that Jordan had over everything, but it was still very entertaining to watch, no matter how many times they eliminated the Knicks.
I do think Kukoc, Horace, and Harper got short shrift in the doc and were much better pieces to the two runs than attention given to them during the series.
was coming back for one year on a below market deal. I could see the other guys, but not Pippen. Jordan is nuts if he thinks that, ha.
I think Krause was determined to move on from Pippen and Phil and Jordan didnt want to play without them. If Jackson came back i could see Jordan coming back, but without jax and pippen, no way.
Considering he is up there with Babe Ruth and Ali as probably the best and most iconic athletes in American sports history, a documentary about the guy is probably not going to come across any other way.
I was surprised by how poorly Pippen came across in this though.
As a Knicks fan who witnessed all of Jordan's prime as a child in the 90's, I didn't like him then because he crushed my dreams many times. As an adult, I've grown to appreciate and respect what I was watching at the time, which is the greatest basketball player ever. Hands down.
Also, I think 1980-2000 is the greatest 20 years in NBA history. Bird and Magic started it. You had Celtics, Lakers and Pistons dynasties. Jordan came along and started the Bulls dynasty. The Dream Team. You had a dynasty of big men; Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq, Zo, David Robinson and to a lesser extent even guys like Smits and Mutombo.
Some of the best teams in the East couldn't sniff a title with Jordan around. Knicks-Bulls-Pacers-Heat rivalries. Stockton and Malone, Barkley. He has rings that would have otherwise gone to most of his Dream Team teammates. Teams could have "enforcers" like Oakley and the Davis Bros. Low scoring, defensive battles that were awesome.
By the end of the era you had guys like Kobe, Duncan, Kidd, Iverson and Carter. The next Lakers dynasty was beginning.
Also why do you think Pippen came across poorly? It was well covered how grossly underpaid he was, and so I thought the "holdout" in 1998 was completely justified - pretty normal course of action these days anyway - not to mention the way his health starting giving out late in the year, notably the back injury during the Finals, it was a good thing he skipped the first 40 or whatever games that year when they didnt need him anyway. That period of time also kept Rodman engaged too.
The other time they made him look bad was when he refused to enter the game when Kukoc got the final shot vs NYK... it is what it is.
Were there other examples? Jordan was pretty clear throughout that he couldnt have had the success he had without "Pip"...
Also why do you think Pippen came across poorly? It was well covered how grossly underpaid he was, and so I thought the "holdout" in 1998 was completely justified - pretty normal course of action these days anyway - not to mention the way his health starting giving out late in the year, notably the back injury during the Finals, it was a good thing he skipped the first 40 or whatever games that year when they didnt need him anyway. That period of time also kept Rodman engaged too.
The other time they made him look bad was when he refused to enter the game when Kukoc got the final shot vs NYK... it is what it is.
Were there other examples? Jordan was pretty clear throughout that he couldnt have had the success he had without "Pip"...
I was referencing the Kukoc thing. I also think he was fixated on the Krause stuff but I guess if I felt I was cheated then out of millions that would still be in my bank account.
I guess as a Knicks fan I always disliked Scottie more than Jordan even. I think it was the dunk and taunt over Ewing.
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to return. It still makes no sense why Krause wanted to break that dynasty up.
the owner was cheap. Probably not any more complicated than that. Jordan was paid $33 million in his last year and the rest of the team was due to get paid, including Pippen who got a huge deal from Houston.
I am surprised Reinsdorf hasn't received more criticism for this. If I was the owner I was paying and doing whatever it took to keep that team together. But hey at least he patted himself on the back for paying MJ his 3 million NBA salary while he played baseball....
Considering he is up there with Babe Ruth and Ali as probably the best and most iconic athletes in American sports history, a documentary about the guy is probably not going to come across any other way.
I was surprised by how poorly Pippen came across in this though.
As a Knicks fan who witnessed all of Jordan's prime as a child in the 90's, I didn't like him then because he crushed my dreams many times. As an adult, I've grown to appreciate and respect what I was watching at the time, which is the greatest basketball player ever. Hands down.
Also, I think 1980-2000 is the greatest 20 years in NBA history. Bird and Magic started it. You had Celtics, Lakers and Pistons dynasties. Jordan came along and started the Bulls dynasty. The Dream Team. You had a dynasty of big men; Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq, Zo, David Robinson and to a lesser extent even guys like Smits and Mutombo.
Some of the best teams in the East couldn't sniff a title with Jordan around. Knicks-Bulls-Pacers-Heat rivalries. Stockton and Malone, Barkley. He has rings that would have otherwise gone to most of his Dream Team teammates. Teams could have "enforcers" like Oakley and the Davis Bros. Low scoring, defensive battles that were awesome.
By the end of the era you had guys like Kobe, Duncan, Kidd, Iverson and Carter. The next Lakers dynasty was beginning.
So even though you are a Knicks fan, you are able to appreciate and respect what MJ did 20 years who? Interesting.
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For those claiming it was a Jordan puff piece, they covered his gambling, rumors of responsibility for his father's death, some of his lowlights as a teammate with Steve Kerr, etc.
Considering he is up there with Babe Ruth and Ali as probably the best and most iconic athletes in American sports history, a documentary about the guy is probably not going to come across any other way.
I was surprised by how poorly Pippen came across in this though.
As a Knicks fan who witnessed all of Jordan's prime as a child in the 90's, I didn't like him then because he crushed my dreams many times. As an adult, I've grown to appreciate and respect what I was watching at the time, which is the greatest basketball player ever. Hands down.
Also, I think 1980-2000 is the greatest 20 years in NBA history. Bird and Magic started it. You had Celtics, Lakers and Pistons dynasties. Jordan came along and started the Bulls dynasty. The Dream Team. You had a dynasty of big men; Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq, Zo, David Robinson and to a lesser extent even guys like Smits and Mutombo.
Some of the best teams in the East couldn't sniff a title with Jordan around. Knicks-Bulls-Pacers-Heat rivalries. Stockton and Malone, Barkley. He has rings that would have otherwise gone to most of his Dream Team teammates. Teams could have "enforcers" like Oakley and the Davis Bros. Low scoring, defensive battles that were awesome.
By the end of the era you had guys like Kobe, Duncan, Kidd, Iverson and Carter. The next Lakers dynasty was beginning.
So even though you are a Knicks fan, you are able to appreciate and respect what MJ did 20 years who? Interesting.
Yea. Greatness is greatness. I mean, what I'm most mad about is Jordan wasn't a Knick, but such is life.
What Jordan did to the Knicks he did to everyone. And in the years since if anything I've become defensive of Jordan over guys like Kobe (who I respected) and LeBron (who I respect much less) because I feel the prime of Jordan's era was much more challenging than what the league is today. For all the reasons I stated above. It's a much softer, finesse league today.
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In comment 14905894 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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to return. It still makes no sense why Krause wanted to break that dynasty up.
the owner was cheap. Probably not any more complicated than that. Jordan was paid $33 million in his last year and the rest of the team was due to get paid, including Pippen who got a huge deal from Houston.
I am surprised Reinsdorf hasn't received more criticism for this. If I was the owner I was paying and doing whatever it took to keep that team together. But hey at least he patted himself on the back for paying MJ his 3 million NBA salary while he played baseball....
MJ wanted the criticism to fall firmly on Krause, so that's what we got.
Considering he is up there with Babe Ruth and Ali as probably the best and most iconic athletes in American sports history, a documentary about the guy is probably not going to come across any other way.
I was surprised by how poorly Pippen came across in this though.
all the stuff about his contract was a bit much. Would have been nice if they had somebody come out say, "nobody forced him to sign a 7 year deal". And yes, he was underpaid, but he only became way underpaid relative to the other stars in the league in the last couple of years of the deal.
I thought it was a little odd that JR was so adamant about holding Pippen to his deal, and so many others too... but Jordan plays baseball for a year, the tune changes to "he made me and so many others a lot of money... we paid him anyway"
I do take your point that Pippen's deal, while underpaid, was what... a little over $2 mil/year or something while Jordan for most of those years was 'only' paid $3.8
LOL, this was absolutely a puff piece for MJ. This guys entire world is "image". He controlled the entire narrative.
Sure, they talked about his warts...and then promptly had 10 people to downplay the topics or downright refute them.
Gambling? Totally not a big deal, didn't interfere with his playing, he only gambled this much because he's rich and has such a competitive fire, had absolutely nothing to do with is retirement, totally normal, zero to do with his father's death
Unpopular teammate? All the teammates they interviewed revered the guy. Even the guy he "tormented" Scott Burrell had nothing bad to say about MJ. And when we did get a criticism ("He was an asshole") it was followed by a compliment ("He was a hell of a teammate").
Steve Kerr Issue? LOL, could we have glossed over that anymore? Tiptoed around what actually happened followed by a slobberfest by Kerr himself.
Jordan is also the only person that they filmed viewing other people's comments and allowing him a chance to comment or refute or downplay...who else did they give that opportunity to? Oh...nobody.
It's not hard to see what they did here. Still loved the piece, but it's totally puff.
"Jordan totally would have made the majors in MLB!" - despite being the worst player on that AA team...BUT SURE!!
"When that so-called documentary is about one person, basically, and he has the last word on what's going to be put out there ... it's not a documentary," Grant said. "It's his narrative of what happens in the last, quote-unquote, dance. That's not a documentary, because a whole bunch of things was cut out, edited out. So that's why I call it a so-called documentary."
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29195428/horace-grant-says-michael-jordan-lied-last-dance-calls-snitch - ( New Window )
Don't forget the Magic carried Grant off the court after they beat the Bulls in 6 in the '95 semifinals.
Not a lot of lost love between the two.
Puff piece. It's okay to admit it. He's still the GOAT. But totally a puff piece.
Puff piece. It's okay to admit it. He's still the GOAT. But totally a puff piece.
I personally disagree a bit. I felt like they gave a voice to every criticism that he's been known for over the years. Including the whole bit about him not voicing his opinion about that segregationist politician, but I know the other main criticism is just that he was unnecessarily an asshole to a lot of people including fans, opponents, and even teammates. (Regarding fans: remember they showed him turning down that French guy asking for an autograph? At first it's like "wow dick move" but IMO the documentary made you really understand how claustrophobic it can feel to constantly be followed by everyone everywhere you go and asked for autographs constantly.)
But let's talk about him being an asshole to his teammates: yes, he was hard on a lot of teammates, that's true, but I think they covered that with plenty of material, and if any past teammate wanted to sit down for an interview and criticize him for this or that, I guarantee they would have included it in this doc just to spark some controversy. But it's clear that after all these years have passed, no one has the balls to come out and say he was a real terrible asshole, because they all seem to look back and be grateful for the fact that he was the reason they won a championship or multiple championships. It's hard for anyone after-the-fact to come out now and say "Jordan was an asshole" or "Jordan was too hard on us" etc. because they realize they'll look weak and ungrateful of the fact that Jordan running a tight ship had a lot to do with them winning so much.
I honestly think that's why the end of Episode 7 was the most pivotal moment in the whole thing... he basically said (paraphrasing) "yeah I realize a lot of people didn't view me as a nice guy... but winning has a price, and that's the way I play the game. If you don't want to play that way, then don't play that way." And you can see he's tearing up as he's saying this. He also said at other points he was purposely being hard on them so as to test them and test their character and prepare them for playing very tough, physical (and trash-talking) teams like Detroit and NY who were their biggest threats in the East.
Let's take a couple examples...
He was particularly hard on Scott Burrell and I think the documentary did a good job of showing that. He was continuously calling him "ho" and "bitch", and Jordan said later (as I mentioned above) he was doing that to try to toughen Scott up. Was it necessary? Maybe not. But then again who are we to question MJ considering he came away with 6 titles in 8 years (while taking 1.5 years off from the game mind you).
Other example: the fact he was very hard on Steve Kerr and even punched him in the face in the middle of a practice. All these years later Kerr feels zero resentment about that... he said he felt like MJ was testing him and he withstood the test and it was a huge part of their relationship being as strong as it was for the 3 championships they won after that.
I'll admit-- I thought MJ was a bit hypocritical at times. He was sitting there clearly irritated by the fact he felt Steve Kerr and Luc Longley weren't "taking things serious enough" when they first joined the team just because they'd come in laughing or joking at the beginning of practice, even though MJ himself does a lot of laughing and joking at practice and later on when playing golf with the team says "Phil knows we need rest, a lot of other coaches would be too mean-spirited to allow at day off like this." It's like he wanted people to rest, laugh, joke around when he wanted to, but also be 110% serious and working overtime when he wanted to. But again-- who am I to question his method(s) when he not only was the GOAT in terms of individual performance, but those 90s Bulls IMO were the pinnacle of greatness achieved by a *team* in all NBA history (I know the 60s Celtics are also in the conversation but I give the 90s Bulls more credit for the competition they had to face).
One last thing-- on him being an asshole to opponents... I think Isaiah not shaking their hands after the loss was plenty reason for MJ to hold a grudge against him, and I also do believe that MJ wasn't the only one who wanted Isaiah off the Dream Team-- Isaiah was generally an unlikable guy with a lot of the other players as well.
And what about that story about him making up the whole "Nice game, Mike" story and using that to completely embarrass that one young player? I thought that was pretty weird and didn't portray him in a good light, but at the same time you just kind of laugh and say "This guy was flat out insanely competitive-- he didn't want to just win, he wanted to beat everybody into the ground. And it's that mentality that led him to having the career he had."
I thought it was also crazy how he got right up in Larry Bird's hear after beating the Pacers and said "You bitch, fuck you"... I know he was joking, but clearly he was a bit of a sore winner and was loved kicking people while they were down.
So, again-- I think they did plenty to show MJ's asshole side, and it's up to us to take the good with the bad and decide what we think of his character. I disagree that they kept it 100% a puff piece and all positive.
If I missed any criticism or awful story of MJ that they purposely left out, I'd love to know it... maybe there are things I'm missing or haven't heard that really portray him as a terrible awful dude. Really I'd love to hear anything and everything I might be missing.
I had read Halberstam's 'Playing for Keeps' so I knew a lot of the stories, but I found it was a good doc. And I don't buy for a second Grant wasn't the one dishing that info to Sam Smith. Grant was incredibly jealous of the attention MJ & Pippen got.
But he definitely reached on things to be ‘mad’ about Throughout his career - the george Karl dinner slight, the Russell slight, a supposed Bj Armstrong slight, this notion that he lit up the knicks in 93 because of the gambling questions .... please. He probably convinced himself it was food poisoning to be mad at all of Utah or something.
Anyway, if Charles Smith wasn’t such a pussy that series ends differently.
/still not over it
My hazy memory is that SB had a few good games but I don’t recall that thread in the series at least leading anywhere other than hazing embarrassment for him?