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Giants 2020 Positional Breakdown: Tight Ends

Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/22/2020 9:56 am
Latest in the positional review...


Giants 2020 Positional Breakdown: Tight Ends - ( New Window )
I know people want Engram to block less  
robbieballs2003 : 5/22/2020 10:04 am : link
but that isn't where he is getting injured. He's been getting injured when running routes/catching passes/running with the ball.
Great  
AcidTest : 5/22/2020 10:08 am : link
review. Like WR, I think TE could be another position where the Giants pick someone up off waivers after final cuts.
Very good review.  
Mike from SI : 5/22/2020 10:09 am : link
Spot on about everything.
RE: I know people want Engram to block less  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/22/2020 10:22 am : link
In comment 14908705 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
but that isn't where he is getting injured. He's been getting injured when running routes/catching passes/running with the ball.


Agree, but I don't think the wear-and-tear is helping.
My concern  
Mike in NY : 5/22/2020 10:30 am : link
If you do not have packages where Engram blocks and/or Toilolo is running routes the personnel will telegraph to opponents what our plan is especially if we are running 11 personnel
Kaden Smith is  
CT Charlie : 5/22/2020 10:31 am : link
the man. He can block, and he can catch. His ponderous speed isn't an issue, as tight ends usually don't beat defenders; they get ignored by defenders and find the open space. Then it's a matter of catching the ball. Kaden Smith catches it. I think he's more useful than speed merchant Evan Engram right from the start.
RE: Kaden Smith is  
Mike in NY : 5/22/2020 10:34 am : link
In comment 14908727 CT Charlie said:
Quote:
the man. He can block, and he can catch. His ponderous speed isn't an issue, as tight ends usually don't beat defenders; they get ignored by defenders and find the open space. Then it's a matter of catching the ball. Kaden Smith catches it. I think he's more useful than speed merchant Evan Engram right from the start.


Speed does matter. If a LB does not fear a TE getting behind them they will cheat up against the running game. a TE who can force LB to backpedal opens up space in the box for Barkley.
RE: Kaden Smith is  
Simms11 : 5/22/2020 10:38 am : link
In comment 14908727 CT Charlie said:
Quote:
the man. He can block, and he can catch. His ponderous speed isn't an issue, as tight ends usually don't beat defenders; they get ignored by defenders and find the open space. Then it's a matter of catching the ball. Kaden Smith catches it. I think he's more useful than speed merchant Evan Engram right from the start.


Agree with this. Jake Ballard and Kevin Boss were also not speed demons, however they were both reliable two-way Tight Ends. Need someone that you can reliably get the ball to on 3rd downs too.
Kaden  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/22/2020 10:42 am : link
Smith has a long way to go before being mentioned in the same breath as Jake Ballard (who was developing into a heck of a tight end) and Kevin Boss (same) before injuries ruined their careers.
RE: Kaden  
Simms11 : 5/22/2020 10:59 am : link
In comment 14908735 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Smith has a long way to go before being mentioned in the same breath as Jake Ballard (who was developing into a heck of a tight end) and Kevin Boss (same) before injuries ruined their careers.


Eric, point being is that they all are similar in terms of AA. Kaden Smith could become a very good reliable TE for the Giants.
It's funny  
Anakim : 5/22/2020 11:00 am : link
If you watch South Carolina vs. Alabama, Markway and McKinney were really going at it. McKinney was tasked with covering Markway for most of the game.
One other thing  
Mike from SI : 5/22/2020 11:01 am : link
I suspect if Engram has a bad year, and Kaden Smith does not develop into a monster, we will likely address this position significantly either in the draft or FA next year.
Simms  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/22/2020 11:06 am : link
I'm not discounting him, but we need a bigger sample size. Boss was a better athlete than Smith and Ballard was a better blocker.

Ballard really was an unsung hero of the 2011 season. His catch against the Pats during the regular season was one of the team's biggest plays of the season.
Anak  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/22/2020 11:07 am : link
In the limited tape I've seen of Markway, it looks like South Carolina really used him like the Vikings used to use Rhett Ellison, mainly to get him involved at the point-of-attack as a blocker.
Maybe  
PaulN : 5/22/2020 11:38 am : link
With a more narrow focus he can focus and train more stretching and less on strength and keep him away from blocking big boys, I think he is best served in the slot.
Eric, I think you are underating Smith  
ZogZerg : 5/22/2020 11:51 am : link
He was a projected 3rd round pick that SF was able to get in the 6th. He joined a new team part way through the season and made some clutch plays. I think he will play significant time this year.

I also expect that the Giants will keep 4 TEs.
RE: Eric, I think you are underating Smith  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/22/2020 12:10 pm : link
In comment 14908816 ZogZerg said:
Quote:
He was a projected 3rd round pick that SF was able to get in the 6th. He joined a new team part way through the season and made some clutch plays. I think he will play significant time this year.

I also expect that the Giants will keep 4 TEs.


Again, I'm not saying he can't become a good player. I'm just not going to jump the gun on it. He seems like one of those above average kind of guys who does a decent job as a receiver and blocker, but doesn't really excel at either. I think we're so used to bad TE play that guy like him was a real positive in an otherwise dreary season.

I'd be thrilled if he's a starting-caliber NFL tight end. I'm just not prepared to say that yet.
Traded  
Thegratefulhead : 5/22/2020 12:11 pm : link
I would have traded Engram or convert him to WR. I know mismatch...how many big plays in his entire career. I like my TEs like Bavaro. Gronk and Kittle. I am no fan of Engram. Not tough enough.
the big thing about Engram  
Dave on the UWS : 5/22/2020 12:11 pm : link
is to ask yourself "who on the roster can take a swing pass and go 75 yds?" He adds explosive plays, that's what he brings to the table. Certainly not blocking.
RE: RE: Kaden Smith is  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 5/22/2020 12:21 pm : link
In comment 14908734 Simms11 said:
Quote:
In comment 14908727 CT Charlie said:


Quote:


the man. He can block, and he can catch. His ponderous speed isn't an issue, as tight ends usually don't beat defenders; they get ignored by defenders and find the open space. Then it's a matter of catching the ball. Kaden Smith catches it. I think he's more useful than speed merchant Evan Engram right from the start.



Agree with this. Jake Ballard and Kevin Boss were also not speed demons, however they were both reliable two-way Tight Ends. Need someone that you can reliably get the ball to on 3rd downs too.

And I would much rather have a blocking FB for SB and DJ8 than a versatile wco FB like Penny.
Definitely  
Toth029 : 5/22/2020 12:37 pm : link
See 4 HE's on the team.

Engram
Smith
Toilolo

4th spot to a developmental guy or one who provides some receiving ability. I like the upside for these guys if Evan can stay healthy for 14 games, at least. Not missing games for a hangnail.
I was hoping the Giants would have brought in some competition  
larryflower37 : 5/22/2020 12:41 pm : link
for the #1 TE spot.
Going into the season with only 1 real pass catching TE especially since Engram can't stay healthy is a scary proposition.
I don't see Smith being that guy.
hopefully someone shakes free on final cuts that can truly back up Engram.
Engram  
AcidTest : 5/22/2020 1:06 pm : link
is the only TE with speed, and can therefore to some extent compensate for a lack of speed at WR. But as has been frequently noted, he unfortunately has missed quite a lot of time because of injuries. Smith is an underneath, move the chains TE with good hands, which is fine, but he has no speed.
RE: My concern  
Klaatu : 5/22/2020 1:41 pm : link
In comment 14908726 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
If you do not have packages where Engram blocks and/or Toilolo is running routes the personnel will telegraph to opponents what our plan is especially if we are running 11 personnel


That's why I expect to see a lot more 12 personnel packages than we've seen in recent years, with Toilolo inline, joined at the hip to one of the OT's, and Engram lined up all over the place, in motion, etc. The hybrid Engram makes our 12 personnel like most team's 11. Toilolo may move out for some safety-valve stuff, and Engram may block a LB or DB on occasion, but you're really not going to fool anyone about what their roles are. Toilolo's in there to block, Engram to catch passes. The key for the Giants, besides staying healthy, will be in their execution.
One note about Boss and Ballard.  
Klaatu : 5/22/2020 1:47 pm : link
Boss played for a Giants team that had an outstanding O-Line and a stellar trio of WR's. The O-Line wasn't as stout for Ballard, especially in the run-blocking department, but he also played with a stellar trio of WR's.

Okay, that's two notes.
I want  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/22/2020 2:06 pm : link
Garrett to use Engram as Klaatu highlights above.
A Bad Writeup on Toilolo  
Samiam : 5/22/2020 3:24 pm : link
I knew nothing about Toilolo but thought when they signed him, we finally got a TE who can block. It has bugged me for awhile that a team with a crap OL could not find a good blocking TE. Ellison was a disappointment. If you read Defenderdawg’s post above, an NFL executive said that Toilolo was overpaid and not that good a blocker. I hope they’re wrong. Also, I heard a podcast recently that evaluated SEC prospects from the draft and UFDAs and I came away that his evaluation of Markaway was meh.

Hopefully, Garrett and Freddy Kitchens can get more out of this group. And, while Kitchens was a terrible head coach, as an assistant he might be able to find production and keep Engram healthy,. Also, we’ve been reading for a few training cams about Dickerson’s potential but he has shown zero when it counts. Maybe he can step up.
RE: A Bad Writeup on Toilolo  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/22/2020 3:53 pm : link
In comment 14909081 Samiam said:
Quote:
I knew nothing about Toilolo but thought when they signed him, we finally got a TE who can block. It has bugged me for awhile that a team with a crap OL could not find a good blocking TE. Ellison was a disappointment. If you read Defenderdawg’s post above, an NFL executive said that Toilolo was overpaid and not that good a blocker. I hope they’re wrong. Also, I heard a podcast recently that evaluated SEC prospects from the draft and UFDAs and I came away that his evaluation of Markaway was meh.

Hopefully, Garrett and Freddy Kitchens can get more out of this group. And, while Kitchens was a terrible head coach, as an assistant he might be able to find production and keep Engram healthy,. Also, we’ve been reading for a few training cams about Dickerson’s potential but he has shown zero when it counts. Maybe he can step up.


Toilolo was the third free agent we signed in free agency after Bradberry and Martinez and before guys like Fackrell, Fleming, Ebner. That tells you he was a priority signing for the team. He's not going to be Howard Cross, but he's going to be the best blocker we've had in some time.
Best Locker  
Samiam : 5/22/2020 4:57 pm : link
That’s not saying much but I agree with you. Unfortunately I remember thinking something similar when Ellison was signed.

You’re right about Lemioux. It was quickness and not speed. But, unfortunately, that would be a deficiency that’s more important at the center position. Pretty sure he played almost entirely at LG. If he’s not in the cards at center, it’s more likely to me that they look to replace Ziegler rather than Hernandez to save money. Although I think that Hernandez stays longer because I hope Colo,boy can undo the damage of Hal Hunter. Either way, Lemioux would be learning a new position
RE: RE: Eric, I think you are underating Smith  
Jay on the Island : 5/22/2020 10:36 pm : link
In comment 14908833 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14908816 ZogZerg said:


Quote:


He was a projected 3rd round pick that SF was able to get in the 6th. He joined a new team part way through the season and made some clutch plays. I think he will play significant time this year.

I also expect that the Giants will keep 4 TEs.



Again, I'm not saying he can't become a good player. I'm just not going to jump the gun on it. He seems like one of those above average kind of guys who does a decent job as a receiver and blocker, but doesn't really excel at either. I think we're so used to bad TE play that guy like him was a real positive in an otherwise dreary season.

I'd be thrilled if he's a starting-caliber NFL tight end. I'm just not prepared to say that yet.

Boss was clearly the most athletic of the three with Ballard as the slowest and least athletic. Ballard was the best blocker and probably the best at making catches in traffic.

It is too small a sample size to judge Kaden Smith but I will admit that I am excited to see him this season. Will he ever be a great #1 TE? No, but I think that he will be an excellent compliment.

I hope that they add another two way TE in next years draft. This would not only provide another weapon for Jones but it would also allow Engram to run more routes and allow Garrett to expand his play book.

Jason Garrett's offense is more TE friendly which is great news for Engram and Smith.
I think the Giants keep 4 TE's as well  
Jay on the Island : 5/22/2020 10:49 pm : link
I think Markway will be the 4th TE but his stay on the roster might be short. I could see them adding a TE on waivers and then send Markway to the practice squad.
...  
christian : 5/22/2020 11:42 pm : link
Ballard had a tremendous season in 2011 as the legitimate 4th option.

On 61 targets he had over 600 yards. If anything the Giants should have fed the ball more to him. He averaged over 15 yards a catch.

When you look at the number of stellar players who had their careers cut dramatically short in that era, it's astonishing.
I'm not optimistic that Engram will ever be what they hoped...  
Milton : 5/23/2020 1:06 am : link
He's not good at blocking and not reliable as a receiver (way too many drops). And he gets hurt a lot. He needs to be replaced by a TE who is functional as both blocker and receiver or an athletic pass-catching TE who can be relied on to catch the ball.
There are only so many issues that can be solved in one offseason  
Milton : 5/23/2020 1:10 am : link
Unless Kaden Smith proves to be the real deal, TE will need to be a priority next year.
I hope, and expect to see alot of 2 TE with Toilolo and Engram  
Victor in CT : 5/23/2020 8:26 am : link
helps the run game, helps the tackles and gets Engram in space in the passing game. I like Smith and look forward to his development.
RE: A Bad Writeup on Toilolo  
Klaatu : 5/23/2020 8:53 am : link
In comment 14909081 Samiam said:
Quote:
I knew nothing about Toilolo but thought when they signed him, we finally got a TE who can block. It has bugged me for awhile that a team with a crap OL could not find a good blocking TE. Ellison was a disappointment. If you read Defenderdawg’s post above, an NFL executive said that Toilolo was overpaid and not that good a blocker. I hope they’re wrong. Also, I heard a podcast recently that evaluated SEC prospects from the draft and UFDAs and I came away that his evaluation of Markaway was meh.

Hopefully, Garrett and Freddy Kitchens can get more out of this group. And, while Kitchens was a terrible head coach, as an assistant he might be able to find production and keep Engram healthy,. Also, we’ve been reading for a few training cams about Dickerson’s potential but he has shown zero when it counts. Maybe he can step up.


Maybe you'll feel better about Toilolo after reading this:

Film Review - What Tight End Levine Toilolo Can Bring to the Giants Offense

Was he overpaid? Yeah, probably, but nowhere near as egregiously as Ellison was when he signed with the Giants, and if Toilolo can make life easier for Barkley and Jones, he'll be worth every penny.
This is an underrated group  
Peppers : 5/23/2020 12:38 pm : link
If Engram can stay healthy he's a matchup problem. With or without the ball in his hands he creates a unique challenge for defenses because of his speed. A player like Engram stretches defenses both horizontally and vertically which creates better opportunities for others. The issue here is, can he stay healthy?

Levine Toilolo will see his reps when NYG's tackles are struggling in their matchups and when they need size in the RedZone. That's where he'll prove his worth.

It was a limited sample size but Kaden Smith showed he has the potential to have a role on game days as TE2. He's your solid but unspectacular Y. Shows good effort blocking, as he gets stronger he'll improve. He'll be deployed more in the passing game vs teams who run zone. He's smart, knows how to work the seam, and when to sit vs soft zone. He made some nice contested catches bailing out his QB both last year and with Stanford. Smith was a 5-star recruit.. there could be some more potential left to unlock.

RE: This is an underrated group  
Milton : 5/23/2020 2:24 pm : link
In comment 14909504 Peppers said:
Quote:
If Engram can stay healthy he's a matchup problem. With or without the ball in his hands he creates a unique challenge for defenses because of his speed. A player like Engram stretches defenses both horizontally and vertically which creates better opportunities for others. The issue here is, can he stay healthy?
Unfortunately that's not the only issue with him. He also needs to catch the ball more consistently. And he needs to do a better job of helping in the running game.
The TE FA signing(s) is not exactly a vote of confidence toward  
George from PA : 5/23/2020 3:19 pm : link
Kaden Smith blocking prowess.

Judge obviously reviewed the film and felt he needed more.....
RE: The TE FA signing(s) is not exactly a vote of confidence toward  
Klaatu : 5/23/2020 4:01 pm : link
In comment 14909567 George from PA said:
Quote:
Kaden Smith blocking prowess.

Judge obviously reviewed the film and felt he needed more.....


Or, it could be a vote of confidence in his receiving prowess, hence the need for another TE who's primarily a blocker.
RE: RE: This is an underrated group  
Peppers : 5/23/2020 5:59 pm : link
In comment 14909551 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 14909504 Peppers said:


Quote:


If Engram can stay healthy he's a matchup problem. With or without the ball in his hands he creates a unique challenge for defenses because of his speed. A player like Engram stretches defenses both horizontally and vertically which creates better opportunities for others. The issue here is, can he stay healthy?


Unfortunately that's not the only issue with him. He also needs to catch the ball more consistently. And he needs to do a better job of helping in the running game.


Of course, every player has a facet of their game they need to work on. Temper your expectations. I'm sure Engram is working on catching the ball more consistently. In space, Engram is adequate as a blocker. Inline, he's just not built for that battle, so what you want to see is a good effort when he's asked to do it. With his work ethic he should improve in those areas. For now, focus on what he does well and what he brings to this team. If not, you'll always be left disappointed..
Markway  
Scott in Seattle : 5/23/2020 7:57 pm : link
I admit, I knew nothing about Markway, but dug up this pre-draft article on a Patriots site that was really positive on him as a blocker: https://chowderandchampions.com/2020/03/18/new-england-patriots-need-solid-blocking-tight-end-april-draft/
Markway  
Scott in Seattle : 5/23/2020 7:58 pm : link
Let's try that again...
Markway - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: This is an underrated group  
Milton : 5/24/2020 1:31 am : link
In comment 14909629 Peppers said:
Quote:
With his work ethic he should improve in those areas. For now, focus on what he does well and what he brings to this team. If not, you'll always be left disappointed..
He's not a rookie anymore and he has a good work ethic, so at this point what you see is what you get. And you're right, it leaves me disappointed. Which is why I want he replaced by a real tight end. My opinion is that he's just not good enough at what he does well to forgive what he does poorly. I'm not expecting him in year four to suddenly make a big improvement, but maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.
Smith  
Dragon : 5/24/2020 6:52 am : link
Has as much upside as Engram because to this point he is on the field that’s a big factor. No he does not scare defenses to death but he does as much with much better blocking. The kid was a rookie doing what we expected Engram to do for us year after year but only kept being disappointed. I was almost 95% sure Engram was a trade goner prior or during the draft if he sucks again which history has proven for us once it’s broken it normally never gets fixed. He trade value may have been a 3-5 round another bummer year that becomes a 6/7 round pick. Would I like to see him prove us all wrong sure but he looks a Ferrari that’s best kept in the garage.

I don’t see anything special about Toilolo (seems like we made the same mistake again as with Ellison. Lots of talk about his blocking but still looking for it to show up on game days. Why oh why can’t we stop doing the same thing over and over again. Peart and other OL seem to provide the same blocking tools and won’t cost 1 mill. I don’t think anyone is expecting Toilolo to catch more than 20 passes and maybe 1 or 2 TD’s. I don’t see anyone but maybe Smith and Engram (another Injury away from trade bait), as keepers on this roster at TE’s just like receiver we’re bottom of the barrel talent wise or hoping for a miracle. We have been able to produce TE’s maybe not HOF talent but our main hope lies in Smith going forward all the rest are names in the hat.

I see Smith as easily the starting TE not much else to talk about but he brings youth, upside, passion and excitement at the position. He fits the mold of a Giant TE not spectacular but present when called upon. The young guys are street walkers that we will put back on the streets soon. This is another area in the draft that should have been addressed but was not so our luck charm (Engram), looks really one sided.
Dragon  
XBRONX : 5/24/2020 7:26 am : link
So in 2018 you watched Lion games on keyed on Levine? Thatw when he played 50% of snaps. And you keyed on him last year in his 18% snaps? That' how you know he cant block in games?
RE: I want  
Klaatu : 5/24/2020 7:54 am : link
In comment 14908978 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Garrett to use Engram as Klaatu highlights above.


Thanks. Of course it presupposes that Engram stays relatively healthy, which does not seem like a safe bet. No one wanted to draft him more than I did, and no one's been more frustrated by his inability to stay on the field than I am, except, perhaps, Engram himself.

Now, if they don't have Engram, I'd still expect to see a fair amount of 2-TE packages, capitalizing on Barkley's abilities as a receiver as well as a running back, and the team's desire to keep FB Elijaa Penny around by giving him a two-year contract extension. Although Penny only played 12% of the offensive snaps last year, I expect that number to increase with Jason Garrett as OC, and I'd look for him to employ more 22 personnel packages than we've seen in the past. Great for a power running game, but flexible enough to throw out of (and to take advantage of a QB with some wheels). Just another way to keep opposing defenses off-balance and guessing.

I don't want to jump the gun on your WR positional breakdown, but I think we can agree now that it's a pretty weak group. Couple that with an offensive line in flux (again, not wanting to jump that gun, either), and if I'm Jason Garrett I'm looking to keep as many big bodies in front of Jones and Barkley as possible, without sacrificing too much offensive firepower. I'm looking to be as innovative, as creative as possible with the talent I have on hand to exploit opposing defenses. For me, that means using multiple TE's early and often.
JFC, where's my head at? You already did your WR breakdown.  
Klaatu : 5/24/2020 8:24 am : link
Maybe I should go back to the Old Sci-Fi series thread.
I don’t really count Engram as a TE  
BillT : 5/24/2020 9:24 am : link
What TE functions does he do. He may have been lined up at TE positions but all he did was run routes and catch the ball. He wasn’t really effective blocking even LB much less the occasionally DE. TE are supposed to be able to block and catch. He’s can only do half the job. I think the new regime will find better uses for him but calling him a TE is a misnomer.
I do think they  
XBRONX : 5/24/2020 9:32 am : link
overpaid for Levine,but he is very good in pass pro.
RE: RE: RE: RE: This is an underrated group  
Peppers : 5/25/2020 9:25 am : link
In comment 14909700 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 14909629 Peppers said:


Quote:


With his work ethic he should improve in those areas. For now, focus on what he does well and what he brings to this team. If not, you'll always be left disappointed..

He's not a rookie anymore and he has a good work ethic, so at this point what you see is what you get. And you're right, it leaves me disappointed. Which is why I want he replaced by a real tight end. My opinion is that he's just not good enough at what he does well to forgive what he does poorly. I'm not expecting him in year four to suddenly make a big improvement, but maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.


Your opinion is that he's not good enough at what he does well to forgive what he does poorly.. That's interesting.

Engram was on pace to have nearly 90 receptions last season. That places him in the mix with Kelce, Ertz, Waller, and Kittle.

Again, the issue with Engram is can he stay on the field..
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: This is an underrated group  
Milton : 5/25/2020 12:36 pm : link
In comment 14910197 Peppers said:
Quote:

Your opinion is that he's not good enough at what he does well to forgive what he does poorly.. That's interesting.

Engram was on pace to have nearly 90 receptions last season. That places him in the mix with Kelce, Ertz, Waller, and Kittle.

Again, the issue with Engram is can he stay on the field..
Again, there is more than one issue with Engram. He has a history of dropping easy ones that would've gone for 1st downs and instead meant the Giants had to punt. Along with that is the issue of blocking. Is he a tight end in name only or is he a real tight end? My opinion right now is that he's not good enough at WR to be an every down WR and he's not good enough at TE to be an every down TE. So we're talking about a guy who is not a three-down player. In other words, he's not a starter. The Giants picked up his option year, but if he doesn't improve dramatically it will not justify keeping him at the 2021 salary he is due. So 2020 is a big year for him to prove he can catch the balls that hit him in the hands and also prove he's not just a bystander on running plays. There's more to football than 4.4 speed.
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