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Kevin Abrams.

SFGFNCGiantsFan : 5/24/2020 7:39 pm
I was listening to The Athletic's Giants podcast & thought Duggan had a good point re. Abrams being the next GM: let's say the Giants have a rough 2020 season & go something like 4-12 again. There's going to be a ton of pressure to get rid of Gettleman. So DG is shown the door...how does Mara sell to the fan base replacing him with Abrahams? 'Hey, yeah Dave's gone, but we're replacing him with our assistant GM.' That's like the house being on fire & asking one of the arsonists to help put out the flames.

I know they've been grooming him to be the next Giants GM for awhile, but if that happens,come on...that'd be weak AF.
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Maybe we can hire our special teams coach for that  
robbieballs2003 : 5/24/2020 7:40 pm : link
position to shut up Lombardi?
It will depend  
Lines of Scrimmage : 5/24/2020 8:03 pm : link
If Judge shows he has good potential as a HC and has a good working relationship with Abrams I think he stays as GM and maybe judge brings in a personnel guy.

I really don't think Mara wants to go outside and will resist unless it is really bad.....which would probably mean Judge is not the answer either. Don't think Mara will make the bold a movement though in 1 year.
I hate to say it  
Matt in SGS : 5/24/2020 8:09 pm : link
but 2020 is going to be a mulligan if the Giants go 4-12. You have a rookie coach in Judge trying to implement a system with no OTA other than virtual sessions and who knows when training camp will open. If anything the Covid delays are going to provide air cover for Gettleman and Abrams if the season goes sideways, and to be honest there could well be legitimacy to it. I think it's inevitable that Abrams takes over after the season. This might be the Parcells' equivalent of 3-12-1 before things turned around the following season.
It is unprecedented to be as bad as we have been  
NoGainDayne : 5/24/2020 8:24 pm : link
and promote from within.

It’s extremely indicative of the decision making problems this team has that they have an anointed successor without having success to point to. A responsible process would be needing to have demonstrable success connecting things someone’s done to success on the field to having an internal hire but given the on the field product it would not be surprising to learn that winning isn’t as high of a priority for this team as others.

What exactly has Abrams done that’s so impressive? I’ve never once heard a compelling argument for him other than he’s smart and they like what he does with the cap. But again by what metrics is he good with the cap? If they were better run they’d at least keep it a better secret because it should leave a sour taste in people’s mouth to hear that even as cellar dwellers the team cares more about “loyalty” than actually finding the best people based on metrics that are easy to see and understand.

Not much loyalty to the fans to be ready to commit to someone like this at this juncture though.
Gettleman will never be fired or "shown the door"  
JohnB : 5/24/2020 8:27 pm : link
He will retire with grace and class even if it is clear that there needs to be a change. The Giants will give a huge retirement party for him and then they'll announce who has been chosen to replace DG.

Do you expect anything less from Mara and Company?
What...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/24/2020 8:46 pm : link
does this mean??

Quote:
It is unprecedented to be as bad as we have been
NoGainDayne : 8:24 pm : link : reply
and promote from within.


Unprecendented? There are numerous examples of teams that were really bad, some for an extended period promoting both head coaches and general managers from within.

Again, for a person who claims to rely on facts, this is yet another example of not doing the research or just willingly overlooking it.

Some teams who had poor stretches and promoted from within going back to the 70's.
- Browns
- Bengals
- Lions
- Bills
- Bucs
- Saints
- Cardinals
- Jets
- Dolphins

That doesn't even count mediocre teams who had a one-off or two year bad season stretch and promoted from within like the Packers, Panthers and Colts
I think Duggan hates DG  
US1 Giants : 5/24/2020 8:46 pm : link
.
I’m more concerned with Judge..  
Sean : 5/24/2020 8:51 pm : link
If Judge shows promise and is building a culture with some progress made, why would we want to hire an outside GM who has no relationship/background with Judge?

I’m putting a lot of hope in Joe Judge. He’s young, has an impressive resume working up to this point & got a 5-year deal. I’m less concerned with hiring an outside GM. More concerned with Judge showing promise and being the lead voice.
FMiC is right..  
Sean : 5/24/2020 8:52 pm : link
Where are all these outside GM’s being hired?
Abrams is in line for when DG retires  
UberAlias : 5/24/2020 8:59 pm : link
Not Likely if he’s fired.
I see a scenario where Abrams takes over as GM  
UberAlias : 5/24/2020 9:02 pm : link
But Judge takes on greater influence in player selection and evaluation.
Not a lot of choice...  
trueblueinpw : 5/24/2020 9:07 pm : link
Getty will probably be sent upstairs or some such thing no matter how the season goes. It makes sense when you consider that Getty was kept for another head coaching move. Really, what else can the Giants do? They aren’t going to back up the truck. They had a chance last year but didn’t pull the trigger. So, yeah, Kevin Abrams makes sense. Let’s hope DJ8 and the Judge are the goods. Otherwise it’s 5 more years of shit football.
RE: I see a scenario where Abrams takes over as GM  
Sean : 5/24/2020 9:10 pm : link
In comment 14910074 UberAlias said:
Quote:
But Judge takes on greater influence in player selection and evaluation.


This is what I think and I’d be fine with it. They took a huge chance on Judge, they’ll be patient with him,
I’d love McClay from Dallas if/when we move on.  
yatqb : 5/24/2020 9:13 pm : link
They’ve had some great drafts with him as the personnel man.
DG is not on hot seat as many here might think.....  
George from PA : 5/24/2020 9:46 pm : link
Daniel Jones must fail....before DG is viewed on the hot seat.
Coming off the worst stretch in team history  
NoGainDayne : 5/24/2020 10:11 pm : link
it seems crazy to have a anointed successor.

If there is hard data to the contrary let’s look at it.

What were the people involved? What were their roles? How did the teams perform before and after? Let’s go through the examples, all of them.

Or we could just focus on the relevant fact of what on earth has Abrams done to earn the status of anointed future GM?

RE: I hate to say it  
Ivan15 : 5/24/2020 10:37 pm : link
In comment 14910047 Matt in SGS said:
Quote:
but 2020 is going to be a mulligan if the Giants go 4-12. You have a rookie coach in Judge trying to implement a system with no OTA other than virtual sessions and who knows when training camp will open. If anything the Covid delays are going to provide air cover for Gettleman and Abrams if the season goes sideways, and to be honest there could well be legitimacy to it. I think it's inevitable that Abrams takes over after the season. This might be the Parcells' equivalent of 3-12-1 before things turned around the following season.


Really hard to see why DG should be accountable for a disaster, no matter how bad the record. Mulligan season unless Judge loses the team. Then the whole bunch could be fired.
RE: Coming off the worst stretch in team history  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/24/2020 11:02 pm : link
In comment 14910093 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
it seems crazy to have a anointed successor.

If there is hard data to the contrary let’s look at it.

What were the people involved? What were their roles? How did the teams perform before and after? Let’s go through the examples, all of them.

Or we could just focus on the relevant fact of what on earth has Abrams done to earn the status of anointed future GM?


Jesus Christ. You made an uneducated statement. Just own it. You should have done the research before spouting off that something is unprecedented.

Unprecedented literally means it never happened before. And what the fuck is "hard data" anyway. There are numerous examples of GM's and HC's being hired from the organization that was playing poorly - both short-term and long-term.

Why would you need to know the roles and how the teams did prior or afterwards for an event that supposedly never took place?
Because I’m looking for the precedent you  
NoGainDayne : 5/24/2020 11:44 pm : link
claim is so abundant. Where is it?

Why is Abrams the right man for the job? What’s the case for Abrams?
Teams in their worst stretch in history  
NoGainDayne : 5/24/2020 11:48 pm : link
who made internal hires.

Instead of claiming there is mountains of evidence but not reporting it state it. Do you know if it was well known that they had anointed someone as the next man up as they were mired in futility?

You say you deal in facts great. What was the team? Who were the people?

Judge  
WillVAB : 5/24/2020 11:48 pm : link
Why is it automatically a given this guy is the goods as a HC?

He is an unknown at best. If the team sucks he deserves as much heat as anyone else.

Abrams has been excellent in his primary role with the organization for the last 15+ years which has essentially been the cap. If others in the organization wanted certain players he made it happen. If they wanted to keep certain players he made it happen. Worst case he keeps a role in the organization and someone else assumes the GM position.
By what metrics are you saying Abrams is good with the cap  
NoGainDayne : 5/24/2020 11:53 pm : link
we have lost a lot more games than we’ve won in all of recent history. We’ve had many bad contracts on our books. We’ve had depth problems at certain positions some like the OL an 8 year stretch.

How is that a team deploying resources well? What can we point to as signs Abrams does his job well?
RE: I’m more concerned with Judge..  
Mad Mike : 5/24/2020 11:57 pm : link
In comment 14910066 Sean said:
Quote:
If Judge shows promise and is building a culture with some progress made, why would we want to hire an outside GM who has no relationship/background with Judge?

A season from now Judge will have a whopping one year relationship with Abrams. is that really a bond so strong that it overwhelms finding the most talented candidate? If DG leaves next winter, I think it would be extremely foolish to go with Abrams simply because he's already here.
RE: By what metrics are you saying Abrams is good with the cap  
WillVAB : 5/25/2020 12:02 am : link
In comment 14910121 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
we have lost a lot more games than we’ve won in all of recent history. We’ve had many bad contracts on our books. We’ve had depth problems at certain positions some like the OL an 8 year stretch.

How is that a team deploying resources well? What can we point to as signs Abrams does his job well?


Abrams isn’t the GM. He’s been tasked with working the numbers so the organization can sign guys and keep guys they want. He’s been effective in that role. If Reese or whomever made poor choices on who to pursue or who to keep that’s not Abrams problem.
Every organization “signs guys”  
NoGainDayne : 5/25/2020 12:04 am : link
what has Abrams displayed that shows the Giants are better at “signing guys” than other teams?

Our record has been abysmal isn’t that the best metric to see how good teams are allocating assets or “signing guys” ?
And if my uncle wore a dress he'd be a transvestite....  
Milton : 5/25/2020 7:15 am : link
The Giants aren't going 4-12, so the point is irrelevant. A better question is: will Gettleman retire after the Giants win the Super Bowl?
RE: Because I’m looking for the precedent you  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/25/2020 7:59 am : link
In comment 14910113 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
claim is so abundant. Where is it?

Why is Abrams the right man for the job? What’s the case for Abrams?


You are the one that made the statement!! Why do I have to do the research for you making an idiotic and incorrect claim?

This seems to be a common thing for you. Stating things that are untrue and telling others to prove it wrong.

Hell, just look to the Giants in the 70's. They fired Sherman and replaced him with Webster. Robustelli became the GM in 1974 or 1975 taking over from Mara. Know the history of your own team!

It isn't unique. The Browns have done it at least three times, you can count it as four if you include Andrew Berry. The Bills did it a couple of times, including when they made Marv Levy the GM in 2006, and that doesn't even count them promoting John Butler to GM because it came off of a successful run.

Next time, just have a fucking clue about the topic before calling something unprecedented. And then trying to stand by it like others have the responsibility to prove it untrue. It is what you continually do.
Ladies and Gentleman, our final match of the evening!  
Klaatu : 5/25/2020 8:16 am : link
One fall, or until curfew!

In the corner to my left, from New York City, New York, The Metric Mauler!

In the corner to my right, from Charlotte, North Carolina, The Tar Heel Assassin!

This should be a real barn-burner, wrestling fans. There's no love lost between these two, who've faced off several times before in the BBI Coliseum. As my grandpa used to say, 'stack your duds and grease your skids,' 'cause it's about to get real...
RE: Not a lot of choice...  
LBH15 : 5/25/2020 8:18 am : link
In comment 14910075 trueblueinpw said:
Quote:
Getty will probably be sent upstairs or some such thing no matter how the season goes. It makes sense when you consider that Getty was kept for another head coaching move. Really, what else can the Giants do? They aren’t going to back up the truck. They had a chance last year but didn’t pull the trigger. So, yeah, Kevin Abrams makes sense. Let’s hope DJ8 and the Judge are the goods. Otherwise it’s 5 more years of shit football.


Sent upstairs...what the hell does that mean?
In 1994, mara and George young  
TrueBlue56 : 5/25/2020 8:20 am : link
Brought in ernie accorsi to eventually succeed George young as GM. The giants went 9-7 (missed playoffs) that year and then went 5-11 in 95 and 6-10 in 96. In 97 the giants went 10-5-1 to win the division. George young left to work for the NFL and accorsi was promoted to GM.

Would that have happened if the giants didn't have a winning record? There are a lot of assumptions here. IF the giants have a 4-12 record, IF gettleman retires or john mara fires him. IF abrams is named the successor. IF IF IF IF

let the year play out and see how it unfolds. The strongest indication for this team going forward is the development of the young players and not necessarily win loss records.
I think we have seen enough evidence that the owners  
LBH15 : 5/25/2020 8:25 am : link
are thinking Abrams as natural successor whether DG gets canned or retires. Not really sure we can point to cap management as a strength and don’t have enough inside info to know his player evaluation talent.

But he is likely going to be the guy.
In observing Abrams from afar, I believe he is a terrific cap guy.  
Big Blue '56 : 5/25/2020 8:33 am : link
I have zero idea how he would do as GM outside of contracts.
RE: RE: Not a lot of choice...  
BMac : 5/25/2020 8:38 am : link
In comment 14910172 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In comment 14910075 trueblueinpw said:


Quote:


Getty will probably be sent upstairs or some such thing no matter how the season goes. It makes sense when you consider that Getty was kept for another head coaching move. Really, what else can the Giants do? They aren’t going to back up the truck. They had a chance last year but didn’t pull the trigger. So, yeah, Kevin Abrams makes sense. Let’s hope DJ8 and the Judge are the goods. Otherwise it’s 5 more years of shit football.



Sent upstairs...what the hell does that mean?


Sounds like he's going to earn his wings.
If Abrams is the “natural successor” now...  
BillT : 5/25/2020 8:42 am : link
Why wasn’t he when Reese was fired. Abrams has been with the organization since Accorsi became GM. I don’t remember him even being interviewed then though maybe he was. Not saying people are wrong but I’m not sure it’s quite the done deal most think.
RE: If Abrams is the “natural successor” now...  
Big Blue '56 : 5/25/2020 9:01 am : link
In comment 14910181 BillT said:
Quote:
Why wasn’t he when Reese was fired. Abrams has been with the organization since Accorsi became GM. I don’t remember him even being interviewed then though maybe he was. Not saying people are wrong but I’m not sure it’s quite the done deal most think.


I was thinking that as well. Who’s to say that as an AGM he has to ascend when DG goes?
RE: If Abrams is the “natural successor” now...  
LBH15 : 5/25/2020 9:01 am : link
In comment 14910181 BillT said:
Quote:
Why wasn’t he when Reese was fired. Abrams has been with the organization since Accorsi became GM. I don’t remember him even being interviewed then though maybe he was. Not saying people are wrong but I’m not sure it’s quite the done deal most think.
i

Because Accorsi recommended someone else, and that someone told the owners what they wanted to hear. Presumingly.
Projecting NFL GM’s is tough..  
Sean : 5/25/2020 9:08 am : link
We had half this board rave about Eliot Wolf when he was an assistant in GB, he was turned down for the GB GM job (they promoted within), he went to CLE and now he’s a consultant with NE. Far from an up and coming GM candidate.

A lot of people wanted John Dorsey, who completely ripped off Gettleman in the Beckham trade according to most in the NFL media. Gettleman looking better by the day in that trade. Dorsey was promptly fired.

I just disagree with most here regarding why the Giants have been poor. The end of Eli’s career was tough, as is with any franchise legend. This is the first season where we do not have the Eli cloud of uncertainty hanging over the franchise. Here’s what we have:

A new young HC
Second year promising QB
Saquon in year three abs hopefully healthy
An exciting rookie LT prospect
Further commitment to the OL through the draft

I get being annoyed with the franchise, but I think a lot of people here don’t put enough weight in to how tough it is to move on from a legend and it clouded judgment.

Lastly, this is a family run business. People just need to accept that. Just like Dallas, the Giants aren’t changing. The Steelers aren’t changing. This is the business. I think this is the first year of a fresh start, and I’m hopeful.

Sean..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/25/2020 9:27 am : link
that's a very good post. Because we've had a tough stretch, it is like being a family-run organization is looked at negatively.

Winning won't come down to if we promoted from within or not - it will come down to if we make more good decisions going forward than bad ones. We aren't just digging out from a franchise QB retiring, we are digging out from several years of drafts that yielded little.
RE: If Abrams is the “natural successor” now...  
TrueBlue56 : 5/25/2020 10:11 am : link
In comment 14910181 BillT said:
Quote:
Why wasn’t he when Reese was fired. Abrams has been with the organization since Accorsi became GM. I don’t remember him even being interviewed then though maybe he was. Not saying people are wrong but I’m not sure it’s quite the done deal most think.


Abrams was the interim GM when reese was let go and he was interviewed for the job. I believe at the time john mara said that he just felt that abrams was not ready from a personnel perspective. Since gettleman has been hired abrams has taken on a more active role in assisting gettleman and the scouts in evaluating talent, talking to the media and interviewing head coaching candidates.
...  
christian : 5/25/2020 10:17 am : link
Abrams was promoted last season, and he's been progressively more visible -- at the head coach interviews, available to the media etc. He was also interviewed after his interim stretch.

This will be an interesting one to watch, and it will be interesting to revisit this thread from time to time if he's the heir. If Gettleman parts ways for underperformance -- what are the signals Abrams will be better?

The only two things I believe we know with solid confidence are:

1) the Giants have picked pretty well in the top 10 under Gettleman

2) the Giants have maintained good fiscal discipline

The major open questions remain:

1) will the focus on "culture" help win more games
2) was picking a special teams, 1st time head coach smart
3) will the tide turn with veteran acquisitions
4) will three years worth of drafts produce more than one starter outside of the top 2 rounds

If the answer is no to those questions, why would the Giant retain anyone in operations?
Sean's post = well known set of factors why  
ColHowPepper : 5/25/2020 11:15 am : link
Matt in SGS post is likely true: 4-12 likely a mulligan year. And agree Uber Alias. with JJ (and Staff) assuming greater role in personnel decisions.

Nature abhors a vacuum, and if DG is gone, JJ as forceful as he's shown himself to be in this interregnum is as likely to add to personnel responsibilities as anyone, whether with Abrams or a different successor. And maybe a rugged record this season, however long or short it turns out to be, is appropriate exit premise for DG. In a thread this week, some folks were saying stuff like, "We're far from being competitive...I'can't see us being much better than 8-8." Holy Crap!! 8-8 would be COY for JJ.
I’ve talked to you with respect for a bit now  
NoGainDayne : 5/25/2020 11:24 am : link
even though you do not deserve it. And insist on arguing in bad faith or making terrible points but let’s dig in why not?

1. You want me to provide evidence for something I believe is unprecedented? How does one provide evidence for something they are literally saying they don’t believe there is any for?

2. Your Giants examples? Pro football reference says Handley was the GM until 1974 then they put in Robustelli who then had a 15-41 record, this is the precedent you think the Giants should be following? Or Marv Levy who has two 7-9 Seasons as the Bills GM? You can’t use teams promoting from within after winning that’s the whole point, it’s totally different.

3. This is like when we’d talk about if the Giants were in good hands with modernization and you’d share an article about DG “doing analytics” in Carolina. I’m sharing an article below of an analytics expert
going through how DG and the Giants haven’t been in line with what other successful teams have been doing. These aren’t good points you are making. From the article:
Quote:
As Gettleman and new head coach Joe Judge double down on building a team that is centered around the ground game, stopping the run and rushing the passer, the Chiefs and Niners have used advanced data to determine those are no longer the attributes of championship-caliber teams.
In that article Lynch talks about his huge commitment to advanced analytics. The 49ers and us both had a choice in the last few years and they made a strong commitment to the future while we doubled down on the past. How has that worked out for us?

4. You are clearly so emotionally invested in the fact that I’ve said DG wasn’t equipped to lead a modernization effort and you acted like I had no basis for that and one of us prognosticated that way better. Now you don’t seem to grasp the simple idea of what makes Abrams qualified? What is the case for him? As I keep asking. If someone says I’m jumping out the window because I think I can fly and I say well don’t do that there isn’t any precedent. And someone chimes in well TONS of people have jumped out windows saying they can fly. You haven’t addressed the important point. When Robustelli is one of the few examples you provide and he was such a spectacular failure that’s the kind of chiming in you are doing. What you are doing isn’t making a good point you are just being a pedantic jerk.

I’ll leave you with one more quote from the article.

Quote:
At every turn, Gettleman’s philosophies resist positional value and the importance of stockpiling draft picks, particularly for a rebuilding team.

“It’s been a very bizarre management process to kind of follow," Manocherian said. "I don’t really know what that process is in New York.”


Abrams has been an important voice in leadership as this team has become the poster child for clinging to “old school” philosophies descending into the cellar. Promoting someone like that just completely illustrates the point that you have no idea what it looks like to make good data driven decisions. That’s how you keep losing.

In the ultimate par for the course a haphazard effort to pick at minor details of a point you add evidence to the larger point that there isn’t a case that promoting Abrams is a good idea.
Analytics expert calls Giants’ plan ‘bizarre.’ Says another: ‘I don’t think you can win’ that way. Dave Gettleman’s critics are everywhere - ( New Window )
Again..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/25/2020 11:57 am : link
you said something is unprecedented that has happened numerous times and when called on the bullshit you want to see "hard facts"??

And I'm the pedantic one?

You seem awfully intent on questioning others credentials while calling it slanderous when yours are questioned. There's a huge irony there.

Just look up what unprecedented means and use it correctly. It shouldn't be that difficult for a person who claims to make fact-based arguments.

I would think  
crick n NC : 5/25/2020 12:08 pm : link
The one using the term "unprecedented" would be the one to have the burden of truth.

What I think happened is that the poster used an exaggerated term "unprecedented". The older I get the less value exaggerations have to me in discussion. Exaggerations have plenty of value in comedy however.
This is likely true  
ron mexico : 5/25/2020 12:09 pm : link
“Lastly, this is a family run business. People just need to accept that. Just like Dallas, the Giants aren’t changing. The Steelers aren’t changing. This is the business. I think this is the first year of a fresh start, and I’m hopeful.”

I think they are hoping a few good years and an orderly pass of the baton to Abrams, keeping the FO structure in tact.

Although if the losing starts to impact the financials, you could see the silent partners forcing the active partners to give up control. The Covid impact to profits combined with another disappointing season could be the perfect storm for the Mara Bros and nephew Tim.

The thing about Abrams potential elevation to GM is...  
Torrag : 5/25/2020 12:25 pm : link
he's a numbers geek not a personnel guy. Always has been. So he'd be a daily ops and financial overseer but the scouting and talent evaluation would be in others hands.

That's how they sell it.

RE: I think Duggan hates DG  
montanagiant : 5/25/2020 12:27 pm : link
In comment 14910065 US1 Giants said:
Quote:
.

I think it's because DG doesn't give him the time of day
RE: This is likely true  
christian : 5/25/2020 12:34 pm : link
In comment 14910286 ron mexico said:
Quote:
“Lastly, this is a family run business. People just need to accept that. Just like Dallas, the Giants aren’t changing. The Steelers aren’t changing. This is the business. I think this is the first year of a fresh start, and I’m hopeful.”


There will be an event horizon where past success doesn't cut it. We're going on 10 years since a playoff win.

Having been good is not an indication of a good future. The Giants had a fabulous legacy before the dark years, and then it all fell to pieces. The 40s, 50s, and 60s did not prevent the 70s.

The factoids of the Giants having really great success each decade back to the 80s are true, wonderful, and not that indicative of being well managed today.

If the Gettleman/Judge Giants do not work out, I'd hope Mara is self reflective enough to understand he's the common variable in a pretty bad run of football and management.
christian..  
Sean : 5/25/2020 1:06 pm : link
Fair, but let’s see how things look now that we are fully post Eli. That played a big factor.
RE: In observing Abrams from afar, I believe he is a terrific cap guy.  
TommyWiseau : 5/25/2020 2:12 pm : link
In comment 14910179 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
I have zero idea how he would do as GM outside of contracts.


What leads you to believe he is a terrific cap guy? What has he done for our Cap that teams like Dallas etc have not done? Seems like Dallas signs whomever they want every year, with half of BBI saying "It will catch up to them soon!!!". I have been hearing that line on here since 2005 and guess what, it has not caught up with them.
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