I was listening to The Athletic's Giants podcast & thought Duggan had a good point re. Abrams being the next GM: let's say the Giants have a rough 2020 season & go something like 4-12 again. There's going to be a ton of pressure to get rid of Gettleman. So DG is shown the door...how does Mara sell to the fan base replacing him with Abrahams? 'Hey, yeah Dave's gone, but we're replacing him with our assistant GM.' That's like the house being on fire & asking one of the arsonists to help put out the flames.
I know they've been grooming him to be the next Giants GM for awhile, but if that happens,come on...that'd be weak AF.
I really don't think Mara wants to go outside and will resist unless it is really bad.....which would probably mean Judge is not the answer either. Don't think Mara will make the bold a movement though in 1 year.
It’s extremely indicative of the decision making problems this team has that they have an anointed successor without having success to point to. A responsible process would be needing to have demonstrable success connecting things someone’s done to success on the field to having an internal hire but given the on the field product it would not be surprising to learn that winning isn’t as high of a priority for this team as others.
What exactly has Abrams done that’s so impressive? I’ve never once heard a compelling argument for him other than he’s smart and they like what he does with the cap. But again by what metrics is he good with the cap? If they were better run they’d at least keep it a better secret because it should leave a sour taste in people’s mouth to hear that even as cellar dwellers the team cares more about “loyalty” than actually finding the best people based on metrics that are easy to see and understand.
Not much loyalty to the fans to be ready to commit to someone like this at this juncture though.
Do you expect anything less from Mara and Company?
NoGainDayne : 8:24 pm : link : reply
and promote from within.
Unprecendented? There are numerous examples of teams that were really bad, some for an extended period promoting both head coaches and general managers from within.
Again, for a person who claims to rely on facts, this is yet another example of not doing the research or just willingly overlooking it.
Some teams who had poor stretches and promoted from within going back to the 70's.
- Browns
- Bengals
- Lions
- Bills
- Bucs
- Saints
- Cardinals
- Jets
- Dolphins
That doesn't even count mediocre teams who had a one-off or two year bad season stretch and promoted from within like the Packers, Panthers and Colts
I’m putting a lot of hope in Joe Judge. He’s young, has an impressive resume working up to this point & got a 5-year deal. I’m less concerned with hiring an outside GM. More concerned with Judge showing promise and being the lead voice.
This is what I think and I’d be fine with it. They took a huge chance on Judge, they’ll be patient with him,
If there is hard data to the contrary let’s look at it.
What were the people involved? What were their roles? How did the teams perform before and after? Let’s go through the examples, all of them.
Or we could just focus on the relevant fact of what on earth has Abrams done to earn the status of anointed future GM?
Really hard to see why DG should be accountable for a disaster, no matter how bad the record. Mulligan season unless Judge loses the team. Then the whole bunch could be fired.
If there is hard data to the contrary let’s look at it.
What were the people involved? What were their roles? How did the teams perform before and after? Let’s go through the examples, all of them.
Or we could just focus on the relevant fact of what on earth has Abrams done to earn the status of anointed future GM?
Jesus Christ. You made an uneducated statement. Just own it. You should have done the research before spouting off that something is unprecedented.
Unprecedented literally means it never happened before. And what the fuck is "hard data" anyway. There are numerous examples of GM's and HC's being hired from the organization that was playing poorly - both short-term and long-term.
Why would you need to know the roles and how the teams did prior or afterwards for an event that supposedly never took place?
Why is Abrams the right man for the job? What’s the case for Abrams?
Instead of claiming there is mountains of evidence but not reporting it state it. Do you know if it was well known that they had anointed someone as the next man up as they were mired in futility?
You say you deal in facts great. What was the team? Who were the people?
He is an unknown at best. If the team sucks he deserves as much heat as anyone else.
Abrams has been excellent in his primary role with the organization for the last 15+ years which has essentially been the cap. If others in the organization wanted certain players he made it happen. If they wanted to keep certain players he made it happen. Worst case he keeps a role in the organization and someone else assumes the GM position.
How is that a team deploying resources well? What can we point to as signs Abrams does his job well?
A season from now Judge will have a whopping one year relationship with Abrams. is that really a bond so strong that it overwhelms finding the most talented candidate? If DG leaves next winter, I think it would be extremely foolish to go with Abrams simply because he's already here.
How is that a team deploying resources well? What can we point to as signs Abrams does his job well?
Abrams isn’t the GM. He’s been tasked with working the numbers so the organization can sign guys and keep guys they want. He’s been effective in that role. If Reese or whomever made poor choices on who to pursue or who to keep that’s not Abrams problem.
Our record has been abysmal isn’t that the best metric to see how good teams are allocating assets or “signing guys” ?
Why is Abrams the right man for the job? What’s the case for Abrams?
You are the one that made the statement!! Why do I have to do the research for you making an idiotic and incorrect claim?
This seems to be a common thing for you. Stating things that are untrue and telling others to prove it wrong.
Hell, just look to the Giants in the 70's. They fired Sherman and replaced him with Webster. Robustelli became the GM in 1974 or 1975 taking over from Mara. Know the history of your own team!
It isn't unique. The Browns have done it at least three times, you can count it as four if you include Andrew Berry. The Bills did it a couple of times, including when they made Marv Levy the GM in 2006, and that doesn't even count them promoting John Butler to GM because it came off of a successful run.
Next time, just have a fucking clue about the topic before calling something unprecedented. And then trying to stand by it like others have the responsibility to prove it untrue. It is what you continually do.
In the corner to my left, from New York City, New York, The Metric Mauler!
In the corner to my right, from Charlotte, North Carolina, The Tar Heel Assassin!
This should be a real barn-burner, wrestling fans. There's no love lost between these two, who've faced off several times before in the BBI Coliseum. As my grandpa used to say, 'stack your duds and grease your skids,' 'cause it's about to get real...
Sent upstairs...what the hell does that mean?
Would that have happened if the giants didn't have a winning record? There are a lot of assumptions here. IF the giants have a 4-12 record, IF gettleman retires or john mara fires him. IF abrams is named the successor. IF IF IF IF
let the year play out and see how it unfolds. The strongest indication for this team going forward is the development of the young players and not necessarily win loss records.
But he is likely going to be the guy.
Quote:
Getty will probably be sent upstairs or some such thing no matter how the season goes. It makes sense when you consider that Getty was kept for another head coaching move. Really, what else can the Giants do? They aren’t going to back up the truck. They had a chance last year but didn’t pull the trigger. So, yeah, Kevin Abrams makes sense. Let’s hope DJ8 and the Judge are the goods. Otherwise it’s 5 more years of shit football.
Sent upstairs...what the hell does that mean?
Sounds like he's going to earn his wings.
I was thinking that as well. Who’s to say that as an AGM he has to ascend when DG goes?
Because Accorsi recommended someone else, and that someone told the owners what they wanted to hear. Presumingly.
A lot of people wanted John Dorsey, who completely ripped off Gettleman in the Beckham trade according to most in the NFL media. Gettleman looking better by the day in that trade. Dorsey was promptly fired.
I just disagree with most here regarding why the Giants have been poor. The end of Eli’s career was tough, as is with any franchise legend. This is the first season where we do not have the Eli cloud of uncertainty hanging over the franchise. Here’s what we have:
A new young HC
Second year promising QB
Saquon in year three abs hopefully healthy
An exciting rookie LT prospect
Further commitment to the OL through the draft
I get being annoyed with the franchise, but I think a lot of people here don’t put enough weight in to how tough it is to move on from a legend and it clouded judgment.
Lastly, this is a family run business. People just need to accept that. Just like Dallas, the Giants aren’t changing. The Steelers aren’t changing. This is the business. I think this is the first year of a fresh start, and I’m hopeful.
Winning won't come down to if we promoted from within or not - it will come down to if we make more good decisions going forward than bad ones. We aren't just digging out from a franchise QB retiring, we are digging out from several years of drafts that yielded little.
Abrams was the interim GM when reese was let go and he was interviewed for the job. I believe at the time john mara said that he just felt that abrams was not ready from a personnel perspective. Since gettleman has been hired abrams has taken on a more active role in assisting gettleman and the scouts in evaluating talent, talking to the media and interviewing head coaching candidates.
This will be an interesting one to watch, and it will be interesting to revisit this thread from time to time if he's the heir. If Gettleman parts ways for underperformance -- what are the signals Abrams will be better?
The only two things I believe we know with solid confidence are:
1) the Giants have picked pretty well in the top 10 under Gettleman
2) the Giants have maintained good fiscal discipline
The major open questions remain:
1) will the focus on "culture" help win more games
2) was picking a special teams, 1st time head coach smart
3) will the tide turn with veteran acquisitions
4) will three years worth of drafts produce more than one starter outside of the top 2 rounds
If the answer is no to those questions, why would the Giant retain anyone in operations?
Nature abhors a vacuum, and if DG is gone, JJ as forceful as he's shown himself to be in this interregnum is as likely to add to personnel responsibilities as anyone, whether with Abrams or a different successor. And maybe a rugged record this season, however long or short it turns out to be, is appropriate exit premise for DG. In a thread this week, some folks were saying stuff like, "We're far from being competitive...I'can't see us being much better than 8-8." Holy Crap!! 8-8 would be COY for JJ.
1. You want me to provide evidence for something I believe is unprecedented? How does one provide evidence for something they are literally saying they don’t believe there is any for?
2. Your Giants examples? Pro football reference says Handley was the GM until 1974 then they put in Robustelli who then had a 15-41 record, this is the precedent you think the Giants should be following? Or Marv Levy who has two 7-9 Seasons as the Bills GM? You can’t use teams promoting from within after winning that’s the whole point, it’s totally different.
3. This is like when we’d talk about if the Giants were in good hands with modernization and you’d share an article about DG “doing analytics” in Carolina. I’m sharing an article below of an analytics expert
going through how DG and the Giants haven’t been in line with what other successful teams have been doing. These aren’t good points you are making. From the article:
4. You are clearly so emotionally invested in the fact that I’ve said DG wasn’t equipped to lead a modernization effort and you acted like I had no basis for that and one of us prognosticated that way better. Now you don’t seem to grasp the simple idea of what makes Abrams qualified? What is the case for him? As I keep asking. If someone says I’m jumping out the window because I think I can fly and I say well don’t do that there isn’t any precedent. And someone chimes in well TONS of people have jumped out windows saying they can fly. You haven’t addressed the important point. When Robustelli is one of the few examples you provide and he was such a spectacular failure that’s the kind of chiming in you are doing. What you are doing isn’t making a good point you are just being a pedantic jerk.
I’ll leave you with one more quote from the article.
“It’s been a very bizarre management process to kind of follow," Manocherian said. "I don’t really know what that process is in New York.”
Abrams has been an important voice in leadership as this team has become the poster child for clinging to “old school” philosophies descending into the cellar. Promoting someone like that just completely illustrates the point that you have no idea what it looks like to make good data driven decisions. That’s how you keep losing.
In the ultimate par for the course a haphazard effort to pick at minor details of a point you add evidence to the larger point that there isn’t a case that promoting Abrams is a good idea.
Analytics expert calls Giants’ plan ‘bizarre.’ Says another: ‘I don’t think you can win’ that way. Dave Gettleman’s critics are everywhere - ( New Window )
And I'm the pedantic one?
You seem awfully intent on questioning others credentials while calling it slanderous when yours are questioned. There's a huge irony there.
Just look up what unprecedented means and use it correctly. It shouldn't be that difficult for a person who claims to make fact-based arguments.
What I think happened is that the poster used an exaggerated term "unprecedented". The older I get the less value exaggerations have to me in discussion. Exaggerations have plenty of value in comedy however.
I think they are hoping a few good years and an orderly pass of the baton to Abrams, keeping the FO structure in tact.
Although if the losing starts to impact the financials, you could see the silent partners forcing the active partners to give up control. The Covid impact to profits combined with another disappointing season could be the perfect storm for the Mara Bros and nephew Tim.
That's how they sell it.
I think it's because DG doesn't give him the time of day
There will be an event horizon where past success doesn't cut it. We're going on 10 years since a playoff win.
Having been good is not an indication of a good future. The Giants had a fabulous legacy before the dark years, and then it all fell to pieces. The 40s, 50s, and 60s did not prevent the 70s.
The factoids of the Giants having really great success each decade back to the 80s are true, wonderful, and not that indicative of being well managed today.
If the Gettleman/Judge Giants do not work out, I'd hope Mara is self reflective enough to understand he's the common variable in a pretty bad run of football and management.
What leads you to believe he is a terrific cap guy? What has he done for our Cap that teams like Dallas etc have not done? Seems like Dallas signs whomever they want every year, with half of BBI saying "It will catch up to them soon!!!". I have been hearing that line on here since 2005 and guess what, it has not caught up with them.