I'm having a debate with some buddies of mine. One is a skins fan, and I asked him who was his favorite Redskins of the last 20 years, and he said Sean Taylor. He said he *should* be in the Hall of Fame, "he's an all-time great." I said you can't count Taylor as an all-time great because of how little he played. Anyway he pointed to Terrell Davis who was great for a short-time and made the HOF.
I got to looking to his Stats. I cannot believe he made it. 7,600 career yards (Tiki had 10,500 or so).
Davis had 3 great years, where he ran for 1500, 1700, and 2000. Averages were so so, 4.5, 4.7, and 5.1.
He was a great player for 3 years..but if he's in the HOF, I think Tiki should be there in a landslide.
So is it an anti NY bias, or an anti TE bias? Just trying to make sure I understand which thing to be mad about.
Tiki screwed himself regarding the HOF. He knew or should have known that he was borderline HOF based on stats and CHOSE to retire. I know that he said he didn’t want to work that hard to continue playing, but if that was the case, then the HOF didn’t mean that much to him. Personally, i would have liked to have seen what he could have done in one or two more seasons.
Tiki indeed cost himself a clear vote into the hall. He might still get it someday, for the most part the numbers are there. But, when he retired most of the tailbacks in the Hall were north of 12k yards as a benchmark.
Sean Taylor? He was evolving into a terrific NFL player but the credentials for the HoF aren't there.
None of those guys was in Bavaro's league as a blocker, not even close. I'd take a healthy Mark Bavaro over any of those guys and it would be an easy choice.
If any Giant fans want to make a case for Tom Coughlin you're going to need that logic. Because a 531 winning percentage won't fly without it.
I agree 100% that Mark Bavaro was a HOF player and should be in. But for the most part the NFL gets it right more than other sports.
huh? es, Jeff Kent should be in the HOD and he was a better more powerful hitter than Biggio ever was. And how many super bowls did Witten or Gonzo win again? When were those guys the best at anything?
Not enough TEs are in the HOF. Thank you for making my point.
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Being the best blocking TE in football while playing on one leg and making some of the most clutch receptions possible,!during that nyg 90 postseason run isn’t enough. Even the voters know how good Bavaro was 85-88 but 1990 doesn’t even register a blip on their radar. Why? It’s not only Bavaro too. TEs get no fucking love. Gronk will but he’s low hanging fruit to the voters and he should be.
So is it an anti NY bias, or an anti TE bias? Just trying to make sure I understand which thing to be mad about.
Both.
I think a guy like Ricky Watters deserves to be in the Hall before Tiki does, and you don't see anyone arguing for Watters to be inducted.
It's the Hall of Fame not the Hall of Long careers
Tiki is dinged by his reputation (mouth) and the fact the Giants won the SB the year after he retired while still playing at a very high level.
Tiki was never as good as TD.
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Gates, Gonzalez, Sharpe, Gronk, Witten? Only so many te’s should get in as it’s not one of the premier positions. It’s like 2b in baseball. You want Jeff Kent in the hof after biggio andl alomar?
None of those guys was in Bavaro's league as a blocker, not even close. I'd take a healthy Mark Bavaro over any of those guys and it would be an easy choice.
You would take a healthy Bavaro over a healthy Gronk?
Interesting. I can't say I'd agree but there's obviously no 'right' opinion
Tiki never ran behind an offensive line nearly as good as Denver's. Even given that fact, Tiki still has the edge over Davis in career YPC. The Broncos made ordinary RBs look very good: 1999 Olandis Gary: 1159 yards, 7 TDs in only 12 games, 2000 Mike Anderson: 1487 yards, 5.0 YPC, 15 TDs
2001
I say no personally.
I say no personally.
I think Davis was a very good, but not great, RB who played behind a fantastic OL that made him look like an alltime great.
It's the same opinion I have of Emmitt Smith, for that matter.
'04-'06: 31 TDs -- 9 fumbles
Around the time he retired, I thought Tiki was a HOF caliber player. But the longer we're removed from his '04-'06 stretch of brilliance, the more I also remember how much of a fumble machine he was for us. Always talented but just could not keep the ball from hitting the ground. I mean he averaged 9 fumbles a season as a the starting RB before Coughlin got here.
Those 3 years were easily Hall worthy but he was just so damn mediocre outside of it. I don't think he's Hall worthy when you take a look at his whole career.
Yes, he had a fumbling problem. So did other great backs - Tony Dorsett fumbled 46 times in his first five seasons, for example.
Davis was the best RB in football during those years. The zone blocking scheme and Elway helped him get those stats, but it was the running game that won those titles. He should be in the HOF for saving Elways legacy.
I was going to post the same thing. Elway would be viewed a lot more like Marino if it wasn't for TD carrying those teams to the title. Here are his postseason stats for 97-98 seasons:
1997 (4 games): 112 rush 581 yds 8 TDs 5.2 y/a 145 y/g 8 rec 38 yds
1998 (3 games): 78 rush 468 yds 3 TDs 6.0 y/a 156 y/g 4 rec 69 yds
Totals: 190 rush 1049 yds 11 TDs 5.52 y/a 150 y/g 12 rec 107 yds
In less than half a season worth of postseason games he ran for 1000 yds and 11 TDs.
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probably put a damper on his case. That's not to say that he wasn't better than both of those guys, but he was not a heralded college running back and that zone blocking scheme in Denver took the NFL by storm for a number of years.
I say no personally.
I think Davis was a very good, but not great, RB who played behind a fantastic OL that made him look like an alltime great.
It's the same opinion I have of Emmitt Smith, for that matter.
That Denver offensive line had some great names, but no one had answers for that Alex Gibbs scheme for a while. Dallas just bulldozed people with some all timers.
I think Emmitt belongs, but he's not in the conversation for GOAT as his career yardage total would suggest.
Even with the short career, Davis finished with more TDs than Tiki.
Man, was that so frustrating. I remember wanting the Giants to give up on the whole Thunder and Lightening thing and give it to Barber in short yardage. He was so much faster to the whole, more nifty. They tried so hard to make Dayne a power back because of his weight when that was never really his style.
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And that was mostly by design to limit his carries, not because he couldn't pick up the tough yards (Dayne's pudgy ass stole a lot of them...).
Man, was that so frustrating. I remember wanting the Giants to give up on the whole Thunder and Lightening thing and give it to Barber in short yardage. He was so much faster to the whole, more nifty. They tried so hard to make Dayne a power back because of his weight when that was never really his style.
hole*
Denver's made a habit of squeezing SBs out of aging greats!
Yes, he had a fumbling problem. So did other great backs - Tony Dorsett fumbled 46 times in his first five seasons, for example.
Mediocre was maybe a bit strong. But it just wasn't very good. He was never close to one of the best RBs in the league during those years. He was probably a Top 10 RB in '02 despite his 9 fumbles, but that's probably the only year you could put him in the Top 10 pre-Coughlin.
Loved him during his last 3 years though.
Loved him during his last 3 years though.
4th in yards from scrimmage 2002. I think even if he peaked in 2006 another 2-3 years of declining but solid production gets him in.
Tiki
Year Total yards Ave TD's
2000 1,725 6.1 9
2001 1,442 6.1 4
2002 1,984 5.3 11
2003 1,677 4.8 3
2004 2,096 5.6 15
2005 2,390 5.8 11
2006 2,127 5.5 5
Davis
1995 1,484 5.2 8
1996 1,848 4.9 15
1997 2,037 5.0 15
1998 2,225 5.3 25
It's amazing what a non biased view of Tiki vs Davis gives you, use nothing but the facts and tell me again how Davis was better then Tiki Barber. Davis did not play in the Punt or Kickoff game. Here is some more little tidbits. Keep listening to ESPN and the NFL Network, they would tell you that Davis was far better, but injuries ruined a great career, Tiki when properly used by Fassel, because he had fumbling issues that Fassel did nothing to correct, but when Tiki had a good head coach, this was the player he could have been.
Year Punt Ave Yards TD's Kick Ave Yards TD's
1998 17.9 250
1999 11.5 506 1 22.2 266
2000 8.5 332 28.0 28
2001 8.9 338
Both are borderline HOF players due to their lack of longevity (peak-season wise) with TD just getting in and TB just missing (for now). But the thing that pushed TD in, is his playoff and most importantly SB performances. He blows Tiki out of the water in this regards. And it's kinda like the Eli HOF argument. If you could take away his post-season runs and SB MVPs, Eli likely misses the HOF but add those momentous runs in and he's a lock.
Loved him during his last 3 years though.
You're blaming him for the stupid decisions of the Giants to spend several years forcing the ball to Dayne despite it being obvious that Dayne stunk. He was top ten in YPC from 2000-06 with the exception of 2003, when the team quit on Fassel, the OL was in shambles, and Jesse Palmer started the last 3 games at QB. He still averaged 4.4 that season anyway.
All the great QBs were helped. If they weren’t helped they weren’t looked at as great QBs when all was said and done. Brady wasn’t helped? The guy was a 6th round pick for a reason. It was drafted by any other team he’s lucky to even be a ten year starter. Instead he’s the goat. That’s just how shit works.
Tiki in 05 was every bit as good as Faulk was in his prime.
Also, it's tough to compare TIki to Davis without specifying which version of Tiki we are talking about. Until Coughlin was hired, Tiki was very much an (admittedly awesome) scat back. Shit changed in 04, and definitely in 05 and 06.
Tiki in 05 was INCREDIBLE. People have a tendency to forget that bc they took the reductive and stupid route of getting pissed bc he was "mean to Eli" in 07 (when he was just speaking his honest opinion - an opinion which jived with like 60% of this board at the time)
Late stage Tiki was incredible. He was as good as Faulk, all things considered (like his awesome blocking, which was the block that allowed Eli to win his first game against DAL in 04 on a last second play)
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Tiki barber being in the hall of fame. He had a run similar to TD. He put together some amazing seasons in a row. He was a top 3 back for many years. Always amazed that nobody talks about tiki and the hall
I think a guy like Ricky Watters deserves to be in the Hall before Tiki does, and you don't see anyone arguing for Watters to be inducted.
Ricky Watters was never as elite as Tiki was. Tiki's best season(s) are among the top 10 seasons by any RB, ever.
I'm not his biggest fan at all. But he was a helluva RB. No one can dispute that.
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In comment 14910686 Tuckrule said:
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Tiki barber being in the hall of fame. He had a run similar to TD. He put together some amazing seasons in a row. He was a top 3 back for many years. Always amazed that nobody talks about tiki and the hall
I think a guy like Ricky Watters deserves to be in the Hall before Tiki does, and you don't see anyone arguing for Watters to be inducted.
Bro, ricky waters? This might be the first time I've ever disagreed with you since reading your posts for years lol.
Ricky Watters was never as elite as Tiki was. Tiki's best season(s) are among the top 10 seasons by any RB, ever.
I think you'd be surprised if you look up Ricky Watters' career. He's behind Tiki in total yardage but way ahead in touchdowns, and scored 3 of them in a Super Bowl.
Although it may not be how long you played, it’s playing at a higher level over an extended period of time. Jerome Brown, never made it however was dominant, at a harder position, albeit a career cut short.And, what of Mark Bavaro, best two way TE, I ever saw.
TD, is not a HOF’er, IMO.
Unfortunately, there has to be some sort of temporal requirement, before there isn’t enough space to House some of the Bronze. HOF, not unlike it’s Rock and Roll counterpart is a joke. “Chubby Checker,” continues to be shunned, despite selling more singles then anyone. “Yes,” & “Rush,
“ having not been first time inductees, is tantamount to Harry Carson, having to wait, despite having numbers nearly equivalent to Singletaty.
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