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Kim Jones: Giants haven't had a leader since Antrel Rolle

CMicks3110 : 5/26/2020 11:12 pm
was just listening to her interview with Mike F, and she pointed out the Bethea, Jenkins, Ogletree all failed to really reach Baker, that there was unhappiness with Baker in the lockerroom, and part of it was from a lack of veteran leadership, partly attributed to the fact that the Vets weren't really stars.

I thought that was an interesting take.

Curious what fans think about this. Do we need a strong leader to command the lockerroom to succeed on defense.

It seems a lot of the great defenses in Giants history, and generally in the NFL had a dominant leader or two. Strahan in 07', Rolle in 11', Taylor, Banks in 86, 90; Ravens had Lewis, Seahawks had Sherman.

So is that *leader*, that alpha in our locker room yet?
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RE: Anyone who forgets  
ron mexico : 5/27/2020 8:06 am : link
In comment 14911405 section125 said:
Quote:
that Harry Carson was THE captain of the 1980s Giants should not be writing an article about team leaders. Even at training camps in that era, you could see who the captain was. Used to love that Parcells only sent Harry out for the coin toss.

IIRC, Judge said he wants an alpha dog at each level, dline, LB and secondary.


Seems like that was the OPs mistake and not Jones. But I didn’t hear the interview

Anyway two thing can be true at once.

Baker is responsible for his own actions.
Better leadership both in the locker room and from the coaches could have nipped Bakers work ethic problem in the bud earlier.
RE: Anyone who forgets  
Klaatu : 5/27/2020 8:08 am : link
In comment 14911405 section125 said:
Quote:
that Harry Carson was THE captain of the 1980s Giants should not be writing an article about team leaders. Even at training camps in that era, you could see who the captain was. Used to love that Parcells only sent Harry out for the coin toss.


Me too. Total badass, facing off against four or five opponents at midfield with his hands on his hips.





Quote:
IIRC, Judge said he wants an alpha dog at each level, dline, LB and secondary.


Yup. As I said above, Williams, Martinez, McKinney.
Or Baker simply didn’t/couldn’t acclimate in year one.  
Big Blue '56 : 5/27/2020 8:11 am : link
He most likely suffered from attitude and/or poor coaching. Not sure anyone short of competent coaching could ha=e reached him. We shall see if he’s fortunate enough to get a year 2 and has NOW been forced to grow up in a hurry. TBD
RE: Holy Personal Responsibility Batman  
UConn4523 : 5/27/2020 8:22 am : link
In comment 14911382 ATL_Giants said:
Quote:
Baker's issues are now somehow related to the individual personality of another man, or group of men.

Baker's actions and the temperature of the locker room don't have to be related.


They don't have to be, but they can be. It isn't an excuse for him, he has to 100% own it and get better but a support system is needed for many of these guys.

While its certainly no one's responsibility but Baker's to get back in line and turn things around, being taken under someone's wing is something we see across all of sports and usually applaud when it happens (Bradshaw under Jacobs comes to mind). If those instances didn't exist how many other players would be out of the league and forgotten?

It is important and while this isn't exactly earth shattering news its an interesting nugget from Jones.
So then, we are all convinced (other than me)  
Bill L : 5/27/2020 8:27 am : link
that Baker is on the team this fall?
RE: So then, we are all convinced (other than me)  
UConn4523 : 5/27/2020 8:33 am : link
In comment 14911423 Bill L said:
Quote:
that Baker is on the team this fall?


I think he is unless something happens legally.

But outside of there being hard evidence he did the robbery portion of the ordeal the Giants will let it play out and deal with whatever punishment he gets from the NFL (or the exempt list).

Judge strikes me as a guy that will want a crack at turning Baker around before dismissing him. Whatever happened on Shurmur's watch shouldn't matter to Judge.
If this legally goes away, he’ll be a Giant, imo.  
Big Blue '56 : 5/27/2020 8:37 am : link
He will, I believe, be on a short leash.
leadership is great  
Enzo : 5/27/2020 8:44 am : link
but Rolle was here 5 years and we made the playoffs exactly one time during his tenure. And the defense wasn't even all that good for most of 2011.
If Antrel Rolle can be described as a leader....  
Milton : 5/27/2020 8:50 am : link
He was a horrible one.
RE: RE: So then, we are all convinced (other than me)  
ron mexico : 5/27/2020 8:54 am : link
In comment 14911426 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 14911423 Bill L said:


Quote:


that Baker is on the team this fall?



I think he is unless something happens legally.

But outside of there being hard evidence he did the robbery portion of the ordeal the Giants will let it play out and deal with whatever punishment he gets from the NFL (or the exempt list).

Judge strikes me as a guy that will want a crack at turning Baker around before dismissing him. Whatever happened on Shurmur's watch shouldn't matter to Judge.


The longer this case drags out the worse it is for Baker. If the charges don’t get dropped this summer, things get tricky.
yeah maybe  
UConn4523 : 5/27/2020 9:01 am : link
but we don't have enough info, nor do we know what the Giants are thinking, other than they haven't cut him yet which is a sign they are going to let the process play out.

Maybe not huge news but Baker has been working out a ton on social media doing all sorts of drills and such, something I didn't really notice prior to this incident. Could mean nothing, but could signify a change in approach. We will see.
The defense hasn’t had a leader for a while and that has  
LBH15 : 5/27/2020 9:27 am : link
been a problem. Typically like that dog to be your MLB to provide the necessary emotion and occasional kick-in-the-ass.

As to it being at the core of Baker’s problems on and off the field...whatever.
While I'd agree we didn't have a leader  
Biteymax22 : 5/27/2020 9:32 am : link
and sorely need one. I can't blame the other players on DeAndre Baker's life choices.

The 2007 team had enough leadership to win a SuperBowl, but that didn't stop Plax from shooting himself in the leg the next year...
the leadership thing again  
bc4life : 5/27/2020 9:36 am : link
a favorite BBI topic, generally not a lot of useful information.

Does the GM take another hit?  
Carl in CT : 5/27/2020 9:37 am : link
You can draft leaders. You can see leaders. That said we always have been drafting captains. So I think you are safe here DG.
RE: the leadership thing again  
Klaatu : 5/27/2020 9:38 am : link
In comment 14911493 bc4life said:
Quote:
a favorite BBI topic, generally not a lot of useful information.


I blame that on poor leadership.
Leaders get the most out of their abilities and encourage others to do  
Ivan15 : 5/27/2020 9:42 am : link
The same. They don’t have to be stars. They don’t have to be spokesmen. They don’t have to be team captains - although these characteristics all help.

Eli was a leader. Thomas was a leader. Rolle may have been a leader. Collins was not. Jenkins may have been developing until his own issues derailed him.

Best potential as future leaders: Martinez, McKinney, Williams, Barkley, Jones.
RE: While I'd agree we didn't have a leader  
ron mexico : 5/27/2020 9:42 am : link
In comment 14911488 Biteymax22 said:
Quote:
and sorely need one. I can't blame the other players on DeAndre Baker's life choices.

The 2007 team had enough leadership to win a SuperBowl, but that didn't stop Plax from shooting himself in the leg the next year...


No one is talking about the incident this summer, we’re talking about falling asleep in meetings, not paying attention and generally being a lazy ass
Klaatu  
bc4life : 5/27/2020 9:45 am : link
Yep. Eric is slippin...
Leadership falls from the top down...  
GA5 : 5/27/2020 10:04 am : link
In recent years the head coaches did not foster this. It even took Coughlin a while to understand he needed a leadership presence in the locker room. After 1983, Parcells had Harry and (don't forget) George Martin as his clubhouse leaders.
RE: Markky, absolutely....  
steve in ky : 5/27/2020 10:21 am : link
In comment 14911369 George from PA said:
Quote:
Kim lost me.....with LT as a leader. On the field, certainly not off of it.....it was all Harry Carson.


While Carson was one of the leaders, I always felt that George Martin was the true leader of those locker rooms and the guy Parcells most relied on if he felt the team needed to be nudged from within.
RE: RE: Markky, absolutely....  
section125 : 5/27/2020 10:32 am : link
In comment 14911553 steve in ky said:
Quote:
In comment 14911369 George from PA said:


Quote:


Kim lost me.....with LT as a leader. On the field, certainly not off of it.....it was all Harry Carson.



While Carson was one of the leaders, I always felt that George Martin was the true leader of those locker rooms and the guy Parcells most relied on if he felt the team needed to be nudged from within.


Steve, that team had several leaders and yes no doubt George Martin was one especially for getting those guys who did not finish their college degrees a chance through FDU. Believe he was the driving force on that program.

I see your point and it is a great one but still believe the absolute captain of captains was Harry. Perhaps George was right there with Harry, especially in the locker room.
RE: RE: RE: Markky, absolutely....  
steve in ky : 5/27/2020 11:05 am : link
In comment 14911564 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14911553 steve in ky said:


Quote:


In comment 14911369 George from PA said:


Quote:


Kim lost me.....with LT as a leader. On the field, certainly not off of it.....it was all Harry Carson.



While Carson was one of the leaders, I always felt that George Martin was the true leader of those locker rooms and the guy Parcells most relied on if he felt the team needed to be nudged from within.



Steve, that team had several leaders and yes no doubt George Martin was one especially for getting those guys who did not finish their college degrees a chance through FDU. Believe he was the driving force on that program.

I see your point and it is a great one but still believe the absolute captain of captains was Harry. Perhaps George was right there with Harry, especially in the locker room.


I always felt it was the other way around and very telling when Parcells asked George to introduce him for the HOF.
Parcells quote about Martin with relation to BP’s HOF  
steve in ky : 5/27/2020 11:11 am : link
“He was a co-captain and my player representative. He had to please three masters: the organization, the coaching staff, and his teammates. He was unwavering in his support to all three factions. Quite frankly ladies and gentlemen, without his support, I would not be here tonight. He was a great, great help to me.”
When a team is winning they have leaders...  
Milton : 5/27/2020 11:29 am : link
When it isn't winning they don't have leaders. Apparently you don't need to sign and/or draft talent, you just need to sign and/or draft leaders.

Antrel Rolle was no more of a leader than Bethea, Ogletree, etc (and probably far less of one), he just happened to be on the team when they won a Super Bowl. But he knew how to massage the media, so apparently that makes him a leader in Kim's eyes. He certainly loved to talk to the press.

RE: RE: While I'd agree we didn't have a leader  
Biteymax22 : 5/27/2020 11:47 am : link
In comment 14911505 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14911488 Biteymax22 said:


Quote:


and sorely need one. I can't blame the other players on DeAndre Baker's life choices.

The 2007 team had enough leadership to win a SuperBowl, but that didn't stop Plax from shooting himself in the leg the next year...



No one is talking about the incident this summer, we’re talking about falling asleep in meetings, not paying attention and generally being a lazy ass


People are lumping the 2 together. This isn't just about the falling asleep in meetings and being lazy, a lot of that didn't even come out publicly until the arrest.

All of this is a pattern of behavior with him. He hasn't checked any of the boxes in his tenure here, on or off the field.
As OP mentioned, we'll need an alpha along with a couple deputies.  
DCGMan : 5/27/2020 11:47 am : link
I'm not sure that person is yet on our roster, but I hope Bradberry can provide veteran leadership especially in the secondary. McKinney does have potential to be a leader and certainly a respected voice within the team.

Also, Kam Chancellor was the co-leader if not the Alpha in that Seattle locker room. Sherman was the extrovert and garnered more attention with the public. Kam was the low-key boss behind the scenes settling disputes.
Saquon Barkley  
rasbutant : 5/27/2020 12:10 pm : link
.
Coughlin created a Leadership Council  
Simms11 : 5/27/2020 12:10 pm : link
and had identified those he thought should be leaders to carry the message back to their groups. It was a decent idea, however I think leaders will shine because it’s in their character. It can’t be forced upon anyone. Leaders definitely help, but sometimes it takes time for an individual to become a leader. It’s tough for a rookie to come in and automatically think he’s going to mentor, or pump up a veteran.
I believe Coughlin also disbanded the council  
ron mexico : 5/27/2020 12:13 pm : link
After not getting any feedback from it or something like that. My memory could be off
Which plays it to the point you’re making  
ron mexico : 5/27/2020 12:14 pm : link
That you can’t force leadership
RE: RE: Anyone who forgets  
Gregorio : 5/27/2020 12:22 pm : link
In comment 14911412 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 14911405 section125 said:


Quote:


that Harry Carson was THE captain of the 1980s Giants should not be writing an article about team leaders. Even at training camps in that era, you could see who the captain was. Used to love that Parcells only sent Harry out for the coin toss.

Me too. Total badass, facing off against four or five opponents at midfield with his hands on his hips.
...


This picture of Harry Carson standing alone says it all. 1 true leader is all it takes. What an awesome pic!

I think people get too wrapped up in the term leader  
Reb8thVA : 5/27/2020 12:32 pm : link
I think what they have been missing is someone who will hold the other players accountable for their performance on the field. Someone willing to call out others for their screw ups and back up their criticism by their performance on the field. Someone who is scary and you don't want to piss off.

In that regard I think she is right, especially how young this team is.

Rolle was willing to take on the role of calling people out. I don't think he scared anyone but that was a veteran team and probably didn't need that kind of persona. Eli was never that type.

Strahan, I think was the last guy to fit that mold.
RE: RE: RE: Anyone who forgets  
upnyg : 5/27/2020 12:39 pm : link
In comment 14911715 Gregorio said:
Quote:
In comment 14911412 Klaatu said:


Quote:


In comment 14911405 section125 said:


Quote:


that Harry Carson was THE captain of the 1980s Giants should not be writing an article about team leaders. Even at training camps in that era, you could see who the captain was. Used to love that Parcells only sent Harry out for the coin toss.

Me too. Total badass, facing off against four or five opponents at midfield with his hands on his hips.
...




This picture of Harry Carson standing alone says it all. 1 true leader is all it takes. What an awesome pic!

Agree, Harry was great.
RE: While I'd agree we didn't have a leader  
Milton : 5/27/2020 1:00 pm : link
In comment 14911488 Biteymax22 said:
Quote:
and sorely need one...
How do you know we didn't have a leader? If the team had been winning, would that mean we had a leader? Maybe we just didn't have the talent.
RE: I think people get too wrapped up in the term leader  
Milton : 5/27/2020 1:18 pm : link
In comment 14911725 Reb8thVA said:
Quote:
I think what they have been missing is someone who will hold the other players accountable for their performance on the field. Someone willing to call out others for their screw ups and back up their criticism by their performance on the field.
How do you know that was missing? Is just because you didn't hear about it from the media?
Quote:
Rolle was willing to take on the role of calling people out.
You mean like when he complained about Coughlin being too strict and compared him unfavorably to Rex Ryan (from ESPN Jan 18, 2011)?....
Quote:
New York Giants Pro Bowl safety Antrel Rolle waited until Week 2 of his first season with the club to go off on his head coach and teammates. You may recall the former Cardinals player complaining that Giants coach Tom Coughlin dropped the team off at the stadium too early in Indianapolis and he questioned the team's leadership skills.

Things eventually calmed down and Rolle seemed to enjoy himself with his new team. He made some ridiculous comments about fans booing the Giants, but for the most part, he became well-liked by his new teammates. But as ESPNNewYork.com's Ohm Youngmisuk points out, Rolle was up to his old tricks while appearing on a radio show in Miami. He thinks Coughlin could stand to loosen up a bit more. You know, like the head coach who shares a home field with the Giants. "As a person I don't have any problem with Coach Coughlin," Rolle said. "We have a great relationship. When you're talking about the coaching side of things, do I feel like things are a little too uptight? Yeah, I do. I feel like if he just loosened up just a little bit, still run the ship the way you want to run it, still run the program the way you want to run it but let us have a little fun ... because at the end of the day that's what it's all about."

"And people like to talk about Rex Ryan and this that and the other. That team is going to war for him," Rolle added.
Or maybe you're talking about when he called out his fellow teammates to the media. I can't find the exact quote and I don't recall the CB's name that he was talking about (it was either a rookie or a second year guy), but the quote went something like this...
Quote:
"It's not about one guy. We win and lose as a team. But [Fill in Name] needs to make that play."
Way to keep it in the locker room, Antrel!

Rolle was very good at working the media and apparently Kim Jones bought into his act hook line and sinker.
From 2010....  
Milton : 5/27/2020 1:28 pm : link
Quote:
“I wouldn’t say we accepted losing too easily but I don’t think there was enough fight, I don’t think there was enough being said, I don’t think there was enough attitude, enough anger towards getting your butt whupped the way we were getting whupped,” Rolle explained. “That was my problem. If I don’t have that issue that’s a problem in my eyes.

“I just felt there wasn’t enough leadership, there wasn’t enough passion about a loss, there wasn’t enough passion going into the game, there wasn’t enough passion during the game when we were down by such a large margin. But it’s going to be fixed. It’s the first game. I want to nip it in the bud now before things prolong.”

Rolle said “I’m just one guy expressing what I feel and what I know other guys feel and might not have said.”

Eli Manning didn’t say he agreed with Rolle, stating he didn’t sense anything too casual or accepting of the loss in Indianapolis.

“I thought we treated it like a loss,” Manning said. “Nobody was happy about it, everybody was down about it.”

Left tackle David Diehl said he did not agree with Rolle.

“I can’t say I saw the same thing,” Diehl said. “I don’t know about that. When I looked around I saw a lot of people who were upset and pissed off.”

Rolle also had an issue with the Giants getting into Indy too early on Saturday and arriving at Lucas Oil Stadium too early Sunday for a night game. Rolle said he felt sluggish and teammates felt the same way because there was too much down time before the game.

The subject of the schedule was discussed when Rolle and Coughlin met.

“He came back and said ‘Antrel, the schedules are set.’ He said he never had any complaints about it before. If other guys around here, just because it’s not being said doesn’t mean they don’t feel that way. I was relaying that message on behalf of the team,” the safety said.

“He’s the head coach, he says get there four hours before the game I got to get there four hours before the game. I’m not saying that’s an excuse for why we got whupped. I’m just expressing my emotion expressing how I felt going into the game, I’ve never felt that way.”
Going to the media and blabbing about your teammates lack of passion and nit-picking about the coach's schedule is not my idea of a leadership. That's a guy who wants everyone to know he's not the reason the team got blown out.
As I mentioned  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 5/27/2020 1:29 pm : link
that Philly team transformed into a lulz clown team when Dawkins left. With Dawkins there they were a hard edged team.
Maybe if Shurmur took his fucking head out of his offense playbook  
sb from NYT Forum : 5/27/2020 2:21 pm : link
...and actually coached the whole team, he wouldn't have needed to rely on veteran players to, you know, get his first round starting CB all-in?
RE: RE: While I'd agree we didn't have a leader  
Biteymax22 : 5/27/2020 2:57 pm : link
In comment 14911749 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 14911488 Biteymax22 said:


Quote:


and sorely need one...

How do you know we didn't have a leader? If the team had been winning, would that mean we had a leader? Maybe we just didn't have the talent.


Unless the film crews went well out of their way not to show it, there was no one on defense the players seemed to "gravitate too". No one rushing up to put an out of place player in the right position before the snap. No one running up to another player after a blown assignment to tell him "you should have been here, but you'll get it next time. No one encouraging the other players on the sideline etc...

Maybe I just missed it, but I didn't see any of that on our defense.
Winning creates leaders  
Jesse B : 5/27/2020 3:41 pm : link
When you win the guy who shows up all the time puts in his best and gets the most out of his teammates is a leader.

When you lose the guy who shows up all the time, puts in his best, and gets the most out of his (much less talented) teammates is not a leader.



Kim Jones is the Annie Savoy of football beat writers  
Victor in CT : 5/27/2020 4:33 pm : link
that said, I always thought she did a decent job until the Beckham boot-licking became unbearable.
As far as Baker  
giantblue1 : 5/28/2020 3:18 pm : link
is concerned,I think he is beyond the point in life where he will respond to a leader or role model.Even his college coaches said he was hard to coach because he thought his way was the best.that carried over to the Giants. I,personally,question Gettleman not doing his homework last year.Drafting this guy was GM malpractice.

If he(his lawyer) beats the charges against him I would be shocked if he all of a sudden became coachable.
What came first chicken or the egg  
djm : 5/28/2020 6:02 pm : link
The leaders or the winning? God we need to win again...
RE: As far as Baker  
Milton : 5/28/2020 6:27 pm : link
In comment 14912668 giantblue1 said:
Quote:
is concerned,I think he is beyond the point in life where he will respond to a leader or role model. Even his college coaches said he was hard to coach because he thought his way was the best.
I agree that some players are simply uncoachable and don't respond to leadership. In Baker's case, I'm not sure if it's because he thinks he knows best or if he just doesn't have the work ethic for it. Some people are just plain lazy and giving them millions in guaranteed money doesn't help solve that.

Quote:
I, personally, question Gettleman not doing his homework last year. Drafting this guy was GM malpractice.
I'm quite sure he did the homework, you can count on that. I imagine he felt he was worth the gamble. The Giants must've had a really high grade on him to take such a risk, but they had extra picks to play with and getting that 5th year option on a first round pick probably sealed the deal. This was a shot at having a Pro Bowl-quality CB under contract for five years at a potentially bargain price. I'm sure that's how they thought of it. It wasn't because they were asleep at the wheel or didn't give a damn about character. I have to admit I'm surprised they thought so highly of his talent, but I'm not a scout.

Quote:
If he(his lawyer) beats the charges against him I would be shocked if he all of a sudden became coachable.
Odds are against it, but you never know. He's still young enough that he may yet to be set in his ways. And perhaps this will mean the remainder of his contract is no longer guaranteed. Not that I'm at all hopeful he will be anything but a bust at this point, but stranger things have happened.
If Baker beats the charges, and he will beat the felony, he has a  
SGMen : 5/28/2020 9:03 pm : link
big second shot to impress with a new staff and new leaders in D. Lawrence (Clemson, big guy, going to step up); Bradlee (solid big CB) and MArtinez (smart, efficient, just not a star).

Baker will either up his attitude and character from this experience or get cut and fall to another team and 3rd chance....and 4th chance...and no chance...perhaps.
I am surprised Kim did not say...  
EricJ : 5/28/2020 9:49 pm : link
we have not had a leader since OBJ
There are different types of leaders  
crick n NC : 5/29/2020 6:47 am : link
For different types of situations. Leaders like George Martin who helped different groups of people (players, coaches, FO) understand where others were coming from if and when their was an issue or deliver a message in a diplomatic way. LT was your battle leader. He brought the team together game and practice situations. Anytime someone is actively helping the unit they are a leader in my opinion.

I think we get stuck looking for that one leader who embodies all of the qualities of several types of leaders. Those are rare, far and few. Knowing who is really a true leader takes intimate team access to me.
RE: If Baker beats the charges, and he will beat the felony, he has a  
BlueLou'sBack : 5/29/2020 7:33 am : link
In comment 14912801 SGMen said:
Quote:
big second shot to impress with a new staff and new leaders in D. Lawrence (Clemson, big guy, going to step up); Bradlee (solid big CB) and MArtinez (smart, efficient, just not a star).

Baker will either up his attitude and character from this experience or get cut and fall to another team and 3rd chance....and 4th chance...and no chance...perhaps.


First a nod to Milton, buddy you're on fire on this thread!!!

So many great points and examples/quotes to back up your observations. Well done!

Next point re the secondary: the leaders last year were supposed to be Jabrill Peppers (along with Bethea and Jenkins, who really, really didn't fit the role for the newbie Baker.)

This year perhaps there's a difference with Bethea (who stunk too bad on the field to lead a problematic talent like Baker) gone, McKinney back at FS, Peppers back too, Love in his 2nd year and a star high priced CB in Bradberry, and younger guys with outstanding attitudes in Holmes the rookie and Ballentine. Ballentine seems the right type to help create an attitude among the DB group, as clearly does Holmes. Last year after Corey lost his best friend in the tragic and wholly unpredictable shooting, just getting his head back onto the field was a triumph of sorts, IMO.

Sometimes "leadership" is a group effort.

No coach, I imagine, is better prepared to tackle those issues than a long term STs coordinator, which teams are made almost entirely by effort and intelligence.

You rarely get the most talented guys on the team contributing to STs... Though I'd love to see Barkley play gunner on punts.
Coaches need to be the leaders  
Dave in PA : 5/29/2020 9:27 am : link
In due time, with some actual success, we’ll see a select few players really emerge as leaders as well. This is a total tear down job from a leadership and “culture” (AKA do you F’ing job and do it right) perspective. Shurmur and McAdoo were total failures in this regard. Joe Judge hopefully will prosper.
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