was just listening to her interview with Mike F, and she pointed out the Bethea, Jenkins, Ogletree all failed to really reach Baker, that there was unhappiness with Baker in the lockerroom, and part of it was from a lack of veteran leadership, partly attributed to the fact that the Vets weren't really stars.
I thought that was an interesting take.
Curious what fans think about this. Do we need a strong leader to command the lockerroom to succeed on defense.
It seems a lot of the great defenses in Giants history, and generally in the NFL had a dominant leader or two. Strahan in 07', Rolle in 11', Taylor, Banks in 86, 90; Ravens had Lewis, Seahawks had Sherman.
So is that *leader*, that alpha in our locker room yet?
I always felt it to be paramount that any leader was able to play that role without the vocal portion. The "rah rah" guys weren't the ones making an impact for the young guys - it was those that showed it in the offseason and on the field. Always carried more weight.
For the offense, it's clear that #10 was that guy and Saquon has earned that from his absolute preparation and outstanding output.
On the defense, we were too young, too new and/or too absent of real talent on the vet side to have a true leader. Moving forward I can see guys like Peppers, Dex, Dalvin or maybe even a Martinez playing this role for the 2020 defense - and any of those are miles more impactful than what we had.
So sure, they could have used players with more leadership these past several years. But I doubt it would have mattered much without better coaching.
On defense it is a little different because defense has a different mentality. You need to be a little nuts to play defense and having that alpha male on that side of the ball can 100% help. The thing with leadership though is that talking doesn't mean shit unless you produce. Even if that great player is injured on the sideline it doesn't have the same impact. But those alpha dogs have have put in that work every day and set the tone. That is one of the reasons that Tampa Bay was all in on Brady. They wanted someone in that locker room that demanded respect from the moment he walked in. It changes the total culture of a team.
Now, some like to grow into the role but when you have that alpha dog they don't wait for their turn they take it. You'll know fairly early if you have that player or not. We have a young team but that doesn't mean someone won't step up right from the get go. We'll see what happens.
Remember that quote that pissed me off by Snacks? He said something to the effect of he didn't want to be a captain because he saw guys not doing the right thing. Like what the fuck? That is the most important time to be a leader. That just proved he wasn't a leader. With that said, this team we currently have seems like the exact opposite. It seems like we have a whole defense (outside of Baker) that wants to be led. They work hard and are team players. It should be fairly easy for a true leader to step in right away and get that unit on board. The question is who is it?
As for leadership, I believe it will come from Xavier McKinney, who already wears the mantle of "Alpha Dog." In that regard, I think the comparison to Rolle is valid.
I also believe that the Giants will be looking for leadership from Blake Martinez as well as from Leonard Williams. Martinez is a natural by virtue of his position, but, I know, you're saying, Leonard Williams? Seriously? Yes. Seriously.
Perhaps the mood has changed with the new coaching staff, but when the trade was made last year, JonC maintained that the Giants (I suppose you can read that as "Dave Gettleman") saw Williams as a core player that they could build around. If that holds true, then I believe they expect Williams to not only increase his on-field production, but to take an active, vocal role as a leader in the locker room as well as on the field.
Baker's actions and the temperature of the locker room don't have to be related.
Really? The problem with leadership on our defense has been a rookie who was drafted last year?? lol
This defense has not had a real leader in years. How the hell can that be Baker's fault? We also needed a few leaders here to help get Baker walking in the right direction....if that was at all possible.
She said "SINCE" Antrel Rolle. Pierce was retired years before Antrel left.
His problem was evident in college and a "leader" would not have gotten him to attend virtual meetings this spring.
I do agree with Kim on the need for strong leadership to help those willing to learn.
But just because that’s true doesn’t mean that a defensive leader could possibly right Baker’s ship.
IIRC, Judge said he wants an alpha dog at each level, dline, LB and secondary.
IIRC, Judge said he wants an alpha dog at each level, dline, LB and secondary.
Seems like that was the OPs mistake and not Jones. But I didn’t hear the interview
Anyway two thing can be true at once.
Baker is responsible for his own actions.
Better leadership both in the locker room and from the coaches could have nipped Bakers work ethic problem in the bud earlier.
Me too. Total badass, facing off against four or five opponents at midfield with his hands on his hips.
Yup. As I said above, Williams, Martinez, McKinney.
Baker's actions and the temperature of the locker room don't have to be related.
They don't have to be, but they can be. It isn't an excuse for him, he has to 100% own it and get better but a support system is needed for many of these guys.
While its certainly no one's responsibility but Baker's to get back in line and turn things around, being taken under someone's wing is something we see across all of sports and usually applaud when it happens (Bradshaw under Jacobs comes to mind). If those instances didn't exist how many other players would be out of the league and forgotten?
It is important and while this isn't exactly earth shattering news its an interesting nugget from Jones.
I think he is unless something happens legally.
But outside of there being hard evidence he did the robbery portion of the ordeal the Giants will let it play out and deal with whatever punishment he gets from the NFL (or the exempt list).
Judge strikes me as a guy that will want a crack at turning Baker around before dismissing him. Whatever happened on Shurmur's watch shouldn't matter to Judge.
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that Baker is on the team this fall?
I think he is unless something happens legally.
But outside of there being hard evidence he did the robbery portion of the ordeal the Giants will let it play out and deal with whatever punishment he gets from the NFL (or the exempt list).
Judge strikes me as a guy that will want a crack at turning Baker around before dismissing him. Whatever happened on Shurmur's watch shouldn't matter to Judge.
The longer this case drags out the worse it is for Baker. If the charges don’t get dropped this summer, things get tricky.
Maybe not huge news but Baker has been working out a ton on social media doing all sorts of drills and such, something I didn't really notice prior to this incident. Could mean nothing, but could signify a change in approach. We will see.
As to it being at the core of Baker’s problems on and off the field...whatever.
The 2007 team had enough leadership to win a SuperBowl, but that didn't stop Plax from shooting himself in the leg the next year...
I blame that on poor leadership.
Eli was a leader. Thomas was a leader. Rolle may have been a leader. Collins was not. Jenkins may have been developing until his own issues derailed him.
Best potential as future leaders: Martinez, McKinney, Williams, Barkley, Jones.
The 2007 team had enough leadership to win a SuperBowl, but that didn't stop Plax from shooting himself in the leg the next year...
No one is talking about the incident this summer, we’re talking about falling asleep in meetings, not paying attention and generally being a lazy ass
While Carson was one of the leaders, I always felt that George Martin was the true leader of those locker rooms and the guy Parcells most relied on if he felt the team needed to be nudged from within.
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Kim lost me.....with LT as a leader. On the field, certainly not off of it.....it was all Harry Carson.
While Carson was one of the leaders, I always felt that George Martin was the true leader of those locker rooms and the guy Parcells most relied on if he felt the team needed to be nudged from within.
Steve, that team had several leaders and yes no doubt George Martin was one especially for getting those guys who did not finish their college degrees a chance through FDU. Believe he was the driving force on that program.
I see your point and it is a great one but still believe the absolute captain of captains was Harry. Perhaps George was right there with Harry, especially in the locker room.
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In comment 14911369 George from PA said:
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Kim lost me.....with LT as a leader. On the field, certainly not off of it.....it was all Harry Carson.
While Carson was one of the leaders, I always felt that George Martin was the true leader of those locker rooms and the guy Parcells most relied on if he felt the team needed to be nudged from within.
Steve, that team had several leaders and yes no doubt George Martin was one especially for getting those guys who did not finish their college degrees a chance through FDU. Believe he was the driving force on that program.
I see your point and it is a great one but still believe the absolute captain of captains was Harry. Perhaps George was right there with Harry, especially in the locker room.
I always felt it was the other way around and very telling when Parcells asked George to introduce him for the HOF.
Antrel Rolle was no more of a leader than Bethea, Ogletree, etc (and probably far less of one), he just happened to be on the team when they won a Super Bowl. But he knew how to massage the media, so apparently that makes him a leader in Kim's eyes. He certainly loved to talk to the press.
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and sorely need one. I can't blame the other players on DeAndre Baker's life choices.
The 2007 team had enough leadership to win a SuperBowl, but that didn't stop Plax from shooting himself in the leg the next year...
No one is talking about the incident this summer, we’re talking about falling asleep in meetings, not paying attention and generally being a lazy ass
People are lumping the 2 together. This isn't just about the falling asleep in meetings and being lazy, a lot of that didn't even come out publicly until the arrest.
All of this is a pattern of behavior with him. He hasn't checked any of the boxes in his tenure here, on or off the field.
Also, Kam Chancellor was the co-leader if not the Alpha in that Seattle locker room. Sherman was the extrovert and garnered more attention with the public. Kam was the low-key boss behind the scenes settling disputes.
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that Harry Carson was THE captain of the 1980s Giants should not be writing an article about team leaders. Even at training camps in that era, you could see who the captain was. Used to love that Parcells only sent Harry out for the coin toss.
Me too. Total badass, facing off against four or five opponents at midfield with his hands on his hips.
...
This picture of Harry Carson standing alone says it all. 1 true leader is all it takes. What an awesome pic!
In that regard I think she is right, especially how young this team is.
Rolle was willing to take on the role of calling people out. I don't think he scared anyone but that was a veteran team and probably didn't need that kind of persona. Eli was never that type.
Strahan, I think was the last guy to fit that mold.
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In comment 14911405 section125 said:
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that Harry Carson was THE captain of the 1980s Giants should not be writing an article about team leaders. Even at training camps in that era, you could see who the captain was. Used to love that Parcells only sent Harry out for the coin toss.
Me too. Total badass, facing off against four or five opponents at midfield with his hands on his hips.
...
This picture of Harry Carson standing alone says it all. 1 true leader is all it takes. What an awesome pic!
Agree, Harry was great.
Things eventually calmed down and Rolle seemed to enjoy himself with his new team. He made some ridiculous comments about fans booing the Giants, but for the most part, he became well-liked by his new teammates. But as ESPNNewYork.com's Ohm Youngmisuk points out, Rolle was up to his old tricks while appearing on a radio show in Miami. He thinks Coughlin could stand to loosen up a bit more. You know, like the head coach who shares a home field with the Giants. "As a person I don't have any problem with Coach Coughlin," Rolle said. "We have a great relationship. When you're talking about the coaching side of things, do I feel like things are a little too uptight? Yeah, I do. I feel like if he just loosened up just a little bit, still run the ship the way you want to run it, still run the program the way you want to run it but let us have a little fun ... because at the end of the day that's what it's all about."
"And people like to talk about Rex Ryan and this that and the other. That team is going to war for him," Rolle added.
Rolle was very good at working the media and apparently Kim Jones bought into his act hook line and sinker.
“I just felt there wasn’t enough leadership, there wasn’t enough passion about a loss, there wasn’t enough passion going into the game, there wasn’t enough passion during the game when we were down by such a large margin. But it’s going to be fixed. It’s the first game. I want to nip it in the bud now before things prolong.”
Rolle said “I’m just one guy expressing what I feel and what I know other guys feel and might not have said.”
Eli Manning didn’t say he agreed with Rolle, stating he didn’t sense anything too casual or accepting of the loss in Indianapolis.
“I thought we treated it like a loss,” Manning said. “Nobody was happy about it, everybody was down about it.”
Left tackle David Diehl said he did not agree with Rolle.
“I can’t say I saw the same thing,” Diehl said. “I don’t know about that. When I looked around I saw a lot of people who were upset and pissed off.”
Rolle also had an issue with the Giants getting into Indy too early on Saturday and arriving at Lucas Oil Stadium too early Sunday for a night game. Rolle said he felt sluggish and teammates felt the same way because there was too much down time before the game.
The subject of the schedule was discussed when Rolle and Coughlin met.
“He came back and said ‘Antrel, the schedules are set.’ He said he never had any complaints about it before. If other guys around here, just because it’s not being said doesn’t mean they don’t feel that way. I was relaying that message on behalf of the team,” the safety said.
“He’s the head coach, he says get there four hours before the game I got to get there four hours before the game. I’m not saying that’s an excuse for why we got whupped. I’m just expressing my emotion expressing how I felt going into the game, I’ve never felt that way.”
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and sorely need one...
How do you know we didn't have a leader? If the team had been winning, would that mean we had a leader? Maybe we just didn't have the talent.
Unless the film crews went well out of their way not to show it, there was no one on defense the players seemed to "gravitate too". No one rushing up to put an out of place player in the right position before the snap. No one running up to another player after a blown assignment to tell him "you should have been here, but you'll get it next time. No one encouraging the other players on the sideline etc...
Maybe I just missed it, but I didn't see any of that on our defense.
When you lose the guy who shows up all the time, puts in his best, and gets the most out of his (much less talented) teammates is not a leader.
If he(his lawyer) beats the charges against him I would be shocked if he all of a sudden became coachable.
Baker will either up his attitude and character from this experience or get cut and fall to another team and 3rd chance....and 4th chance...and no chance...perhaps.
I think we get stuck looking for that one leader who embodies all of the qualities of several types of leaders. Those are rare, far and few. Knowing who is really a true leader takes intimate team access to me.
Baker will either up his attitude and character from this experience or get cut and fall to another team and 3rd chance....and 4th chance...and no chance...perhaps.
First a nod to Milton, buddy you're on fire on this thread!!!
So many great points and examples/quotes to back up your observations. Well done!
Next point re the secondary: the leaders last year were supposed to be Jabrill Peppers (along with Bethea and Jenkins, who really, really didn't fit the role for the newbie Baker.)
This year perhaps there's a difference with Bethea (who stunk too bad on the field to lead a problematic talent like Baker) gone, McKinney back at FS, Peppers back too, Love in his 2nd year and a star high priced CB in Bradberry, and younger guys with outstanding attitudes in Holmes the rookie and Ballentine. Ballentine seems the right type to help create an attitude among the DB group, as clearly does Holmes. Last year after Corey lost his best friend in the tragic and wholly unpredictable shooting, just getting his head back onto the field was a triumph of sorts, IMO.
Sometimes "leadership" is a group effort.
No coach, I imagine, is better prepared to tackle those issues than a long term STs coordinator, which teams are made almost entirely by effort and intelligence.
You rarely get the most talented guys on the team contributing to STs... Though I'd love to see Barkley play gunner on punts.