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Kim Jones: Giants haven't had a leader since Antrel Rolle

CMicks3110 : 5/26/2020 11:12 pm
was just listening to her interview with Mike F, and she pointed out the Bethea, Jenkins, Ogletree all failed to really reach Baker, that there was unhappiness with Baker in the lockerroom, and part of it was from a lack of veteran leadership, partly attributed to the fact that the Vets weren't really stars.

I thought that was an interesting take.

Curious what fans think about this. Do we need a strong leader to command the lockerroom to succeed on defense.

It seems a lot of the great defenses in Giants history, and generally in the NFL had a dominant leader or two. Strahan in 07', Rolle in 11', Taylor, Banks in 86, 90; Ravens had Lewis, Seahawks had Sherman.

So is that *leader*, that alpha in our locker room yet?
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really want that leader to be Peppers  
Rory : 5/26/2020 11:19 pm : link
and/or Martinez
Good post.  
LI NHB : 5/26/2020 11:24 pm : link
I think there's merit to that thought by Kim.

I always felt it to be paramount that any leader was able to play that role without the vocal portion. The "rah rah" guys weren't the ones making an impact for the young guys - it was those that showed it in the offseason and on the field. Always carried more weight.

For the offense, it's clear that #10 was that guy and Saquon has earned that from his absolute preparation and outstanding output.

On the defense, we were too young, too new and/or too absent of real talent on the vet side to have a true leader. Moving forward I can see guys like Peppers, Dex, Dalvin or maybe even a Martinez playing this role for the 2020 defense - and any of those are miles more impactful than what we had.
Joe Judge said that the team  
No Where Man : 5/26/2020 11:45 pm : link
will not bring any veteran players just to mentor our young guys. He said that it will be on the position coaches to reach these players. As far as leader from the defense, perhaps James Bradbury.
Kim Jones  
watertown : 5/26/2020 11:56 pm : link
Not a fan of Jones. Always felt she was a Beckham apologist and loves to talk about being a Penn State alum. I realize she’s not always on the Giants beat, but I don’t feel she sheds much insight. Whenever she’s challenged on WFAN by a caller, she becomes very defensive.
I remember Landon Collins being a great leader - esp in 2016  
Eric on Li : 5/27/2020 12:13 am : link
it's a lot harder to be a good leader when you aren't playing very good, or you're injured, or if the coaching leadership is awful.

So sure, they could have used players with more leadership these past several years. But I doubt it would have mattered much without better coaching.
and don't forget Harry Carson  
markky : 5/27/2020 12:39 am : link
the captain.

I think Baker is the problem  
Shecky : 5/27/2020 12:45 am : link
Legal issues aside, everything from the past month has leaked that he was beyond lazy. I find it really hard to blame others for not being able to “get through” to someone that just flat out doesn’t want it
Defense is different that offense.  
robbieballs2003 : 5/27/2020 12:57 am : link
I feel on offense you can get that guy that gets in your face to make sure you are doing your job during the course of the game but when the game is on the line I feel it is better to have that calming presence. The calming presence only works when players hold each other accountable and you can count on them to do their job.

On defense it is a little different because defense has a different mentality. You need to be a little nuts to play defense and having that alpha male on that side of the ball can 100% help. The thing with leadership though is that talking doesn't mean shit unless you produce. Even if that great player is injured on the sideline it doesn't have the same impact. But those alpha dogs have have put in that work every day and set the tone. That is one of the reasons that Tampa Bay was all in on Brady. They wanted someone in that locker room that demanded respect from the moment he walked in. It changes the total culture of a team.

Now, some like to grow into the role but when you have that alpha dog they don't wait for their turn they take it. You'll know fairly early if you have that player or not. We have a young team but that doesn't mean someone won't step up right from the get go. We'll see what happens.

Remember that quote that pissed me off by Snacks? He said something to the effect of he didn't want to be a captain because he saw guys not doing the right thing. Like what the fuck? That is the most important time to be a leader. That just proved he wasn't a leader. With that said, this team we currently have seems like the exact opposite. It seems like we have a whole defense (outside of Baker) that wants to be led. They work hard and are team players. It should be fairly easy for a true leader to step in right away and get that unit on board. The question is who is it?
Leadership starts with the Head Coach...  
morrison40 : 5/27/2020 1:57 am : link
And in the Giants case it ended with both McAdoo and Shurmur, both weak ineffective leaders. Hopefully Judge can end that pattern. It appears so to me.
Markky, absolutely....  
George from PA : 5/27/2020 3:52 am : link
Kim lost me.....with LT as a leader. On the field, certainly not off of it.....it was all Harry Carson.
Maybe the reason they couldn't impart wisdom on Baker  
JohnB : 5/27/2020 5:39 am : link
is because Baker is a blockhead to start with. And all evidence points in that direction as well.



Baker's behavior is on Baker, not Bethea, Ogletree, or Jenkins.  
Klaatu : 5/27/2020 6:44 am : link
And Kim Jones shifting the blame from Baker to those three, making excuses for him, doesn't do anyone any good, especially Baker.

As for leadership, I believe it will come from Xavier McKinney, who already wears the mantle of "Alpha Dog." In that regard, I think the comparison to Rolle is valid.

I also believe that the Giants will be looking for leadership from Blake Martinez as well as from Leonard Williams. Martinez is a natural by virtue of his position, but, I know, you're saying, Leonard Williams? Seriously? Yes. Seriously.

Perhaps the mood has changed with the new coaching staff, but when the trade was made last year, JonC maintained that the Giants (I suppose you can read that as "Dave Gettleman") saw Williams as a core player that they could build around. If that holds true, then I believe they expect Williams to not only increase his on-field production, but to take an active, vocal role as a leader in the locker room as well as on the field.
Umm  
mdthedream : 5/27/2020 6:56 am : link
no one is at fault for bakers behavior. No normal person does that. That is just crazy shit.
Jessie Armstead was the leader of our defense when he was a Giant.  
Ira : 5/27/2020 6:58 am : link
Players didn't want to go back to the defensive huddle after blowing a play when Armstead was there.
Holy Personal Responsibility Batman  
ATL_Giants : 5/27/2020 7:03 am : link
Baker's issues are now somehow related to the individual personality of another man, or group of men.

Baker's actions and the temperature of the locker room don't have to be related.
You always want veteran leaders  
rebel yell : 5/27/2020 7:08 am : link
on a team--but sometimes you can only bring the horse to water. In Baker's case, his own poor decision-making was a large part of his undoing. Immaturity probably didn't help...and that's where a veteran/senior leader might have positively influenced him.
Sounds like a made up, strange, take  
ZogZerg : 5/27/2020 7:28 am : link
to kill time...
RE: I think Baker is the problem  
EricJ : 5/27/2020 7:43 am : link
In comment 14911361 Shecky said:
Quote:
Legal issues aside, everything from the past month has leaked that he was beyond lazy. I find it really hard to blame others for not being able to “get through” to someone that just flat out doesn’t want it


Really? The problem with leadership on our defense has been a rookie who was drafted last year?? lol

This defense has not had a real leader in years. How the hell can that be Baker's fault? We also needed a few leaders here to help get Baker walking in the right direction....if that was at all possible.
I think she is forgetting Antonio Pierce  
KingBlue : 5/27/2020 7:43 am : link
Antonio was every bit the leader Antrel was.
RE: I think she is forgetting Antonio Pierce  
EricJ : 5/27/2020 7:50 am : link
In comment 14911398 KingBlue said:
Quote:
Antonio was every bit the leader Antrel was.


She said "SINCE" Antrel Rolle. Pierce was retired years before Antrel left.

I don't think Leadership would have changed Baker  
KeoweeFan : 5/27/2020 7:54 am : link
He was a bad Apple (pun intended).
His problem was evident in college and a "leader" would not have gotten him to attend virtual meetings this spring.

I do agree with Kim on the need for strong leadership to help those willing to learn.
Isn’t this both obvious and nonsensical  
V.I.G. : 5/27/2020 7:56 am : link
I can’t think of any leaders on any team ever whether rah rah or in face whose performance on the field sucked. Maybe bettis in that final year?

But just because that’s true doesn’t mean that a defensive leader could possibly right Baker’s ship.
Anyone who forgets  
section125 : 5/27/2020 7:58 am : link
that Harry Carson was THE captain of the 1980s Giants should not be writing an article about team leaders. Even at training camps in that era, you could see who the captain was. Used to love that Parcells only sent Harry out for the coin toss.

IIRC, Judge said he wants an alpha dog at each level, dline, LB and secondary.
Anything that correlates with winning  
JB_in_DC : 5/27/2020 8:01 am : link
Football games is probably something we’ve been lacking for a while.
RE: Anyone who forgets  
ron mexico : 5/27/2020 8:06 am : link
In comment 14911405 section125 said:
Quote:
that Harry Carson was THE captain of the 1980s Giants should not be writing an article about team leaders. Even at training camps in that era, you could see who the captain was. Used to love that Parcells only sent Harry out for the coin toss.

IIRC, Judge said he wants an alpha dog at each level, dline, LB and secondary.


Seems like that was the OPs mistake and not Jones. But I didn’t hear the interview

Anyway two thing can be true at once.

Baker is responsible for his own actions.
Better leadership both in the locker room and from the coaches could have nipped Bakers work ethic problem in the bud earlier.
RE: Anyone who forgets  
Klaatu : 5/27/2020 8:08 am : link
In comment 14911405 section125 said:
Quote:
that Harry Carson was THE captain of the 1980s Giants should not be writing an article about team leaders. Even at training camps in that era, you could see who the captain was. Used to love that Parcells only sent Harry out for the coin toss.


Me too. Total badass, facing off against four or five opponents at midfield with his hands on his hips.





Quote:
IIRC, Judge said he wants an alpha dog at each level, dline, LB and secondary.


Yup. As I said above, Williams, Martinez, McKinney.
Or Baker simply didn’t/couldn’t acclimate in year one.  
Big Blue '56 : 5/27/2020 8:11 am : link
He most likely suffered from attitude and/or poor coaching. Not sure anyone short of competent coaching could ha=e reached him. We shall see if he’s fortunate enough to get a year 2 and has NOW been forced to grow up in a hurry. TBD
RE: Holy Personal Responsibility Batman  
UConn4523 : 5/27/2020 8:22 am : link
In comment 14911382 ATL_Giants said:
Quote:
Baker's issues are now somehow related to the individual personality of another man, or group of men.

Baker's actions and the temperature of the locker room don't have to be related.


They don't have to be, but they can be. It isn't an excuse for him, he has to 100% own it and get better but a support system is needed for many of these guys.

While its certainly no one's responsibility but Baker's to get back in line and turn things around, being taken under someone's wing is something we see across all of sports and usually applaud when it happens (Bradshaw under Jacobs comes to mind). If those instances didn't exist how many other players would be out of the league and forgotten?

It is important and while this isn't exactly earth shattering news its an interesting nugget from Jones.
So then, we are all convinced (other than me)  
Bill L : 5/27/2020 8:27 am : link
that Baker is on the team this fall?
RE: So then, we are all convinced (other than me)  
UConn4523 : 5/27/2020 8:33 am : link
In comment 14911423 Bill L said:
Quote:
that Baker is on the team this fall?


I think he is unless something happens legally.

But outside of there being hard evidence he did the robbery portion of the ordeal the Giants will let it play out and deal with whatever punishment he gets from the NFL (or the exempt list).

Judge strikes me as a guy that will want a crack at turning Baker around before dismissing him. Whatever happened on Shurmur's watch shouldn't matter to Judge.
If this legally goes away, he’ll be a Giant, imo.  
Big Blue '56 : 5/27/2020 8:37 am : link
He will, I believe, be on a short leash.
leadership is great  
Enzo : 5/27/2020 8:44 am : link
but Rolle was here 5 years and we made the playoffs exactly one time during his tenure. And the defense wasn't even all that good for most of 2011.
If Antrel Rolle can be described as a leader....  
Milton : 5/27/2020 8:50 am : link
He was a horrible one.
RE: RE: So then, we are all convinced (other than me)  
ron mexico : 5/27/2020 8:54 am : link
In comment 14911426 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 14911423 Bill L said:


Quote:


that Baker is on the team this fall?



I think he is unless something happens legally.

But outside of there being hard evidence he did the robbery portion of the ordeal the Giants will let it play out and deal with whatever punishment he gets from the NFL (or the exempt list).

Judge strikes me as a guy that will want a crack at turning Baker around before dismissing him. Whatever happened on Shurmur's watch shouldn't matter to Judge.


The longer this case drags out the worse it is for Baker. If the charges don’t get dropped this summer, things get tricky.
yeah maybe  
UConn4523 : 5/27/2020 9:01 am : link
but we don't have enough info, nor do we know what the Giants are thinking, other than they haven't cut him yet which is a sign they are going to let the process play out.

Maybe not huge news but Baker has been working out a ton on social media doing all sorts of drills and such, something I didn't really notice prior to this incident. Could mean nothing, but could signify a change in approach. We will see.
The defense hasn’t had a leader for a while and that has  
LBH15 : 5/27/2020 9:27 am : link
been a problem. Typically like that dog to be your MLB to provide the necessary emotion and occasional kick-in-the-ass.

As to it being at the core of Baker’s problems on and off the field...whatever.
While I'd agree we didn't have a leader  
Biteymax22 : 5/27/2020 9:32 am : link
and sorely need one. I can't blame the other players on DeAndre Baker's life choices.

The 2007 team had enough leadership to win a SuperBowl, but that didn't stop Plax from shooting himself in the leg the next year...
the leadership thing again  
bc4life : 5/27/2020 9:36 am : link
a favorite BBI topic, generally not a lot of useful information.

Does the GM take another hit?  
Carl in CT : 5/27/2020 9:37 am : link
You can draft leaders. You can see leaders. That said we always have been drafting captains. So I think you are safe here DG.
RE: the leadership thing again  
Klaatu : 5/27/2020 9:38 am : link
In comment 14911493 bc4life said:
Quote:
a favorite BBI topic, generally not a lot of useful information.


I blame that on poor leadership.
Leaders get the most out of their abilities and encourage others to do  
Ivan15 : 5/27/2020 9:42 am : link
The same. They don’t have to be stars. They don’t have to be spokesmen. They don’t have to be team captains - although these characteristics all help.

Eli was a leader. Thomas was a leader. Rolle may have been a leader. Collins was not. Jenkins may have been developing until his own issues derailed him.

Best potential as future leaders: Martinez, McKinney, Williams, Barkley, Jones.
RE: While I'd agree we didn't have a leader  
ron mexico : 5/27/2020 9:42 am : link
In comment 14911488 Biteymax22 said:
Quote:
and sorely need one. I can't blame the other players on DeAndre Baker's life choices.

The 2007 team had enough leadership to win a SuperBowl, but that didn't stop Plax from shooting himself in the leg the next year...


No one is talking about the incident this summer, we’re talking about falling asleep in meetings, not paying attention and generally being a lazy ass
Klaatu  
bc4life : 5/27/2020 9:45 am : link
Yep. Eric is slippin...
Leadership falls from the top down...  
GA5 : 5/27/2020 10:04 am : link
In recent years the head coaches did not foster this. It even took Coughlin a while to understand he needed a leadership presence in the locker room. After 1983, Parcells had Harry and (don't forget) George Martin as his clubhouse leaders.
RE: Markky, absolutely....  
steve in ky : 5/27/2020 10:21 am : link
In comment 14911369 George from PA said:
Quote:
Kim lost me.....with LT as a leader. On the field, certainly not off of it.....it was all Harry Carson.


While Carson was one of the leaders, I always felt that George Martin was the true leader of those locker rooms and the guy Parcells most relied on if he felt the team needed to be nudged from within.
RE: RE: Markky, absolutely....  
section125 : 5/27/2020 10:32 am : link
In comment 14911553 steve in ky said:
Quote:
In comment 14911369 George from PA said:


Quote:


Kim lost me.....with LT as a leader. On the field, certainly not off of it.....it was all Harry Carson.



While Carson was one of the leaders, I always felt that George Martin was the true leader of those locker rooms and the guy Parcells most relied on if he felt the team needed to be nudged from within.


Steve, that team had several leaders and yes no doubt George Martin was one especially for getting those guys who did not finish their college degrees a chance through FDU. Believe he was the driving force on that program.

I see your point and it is a great one but still believe the absolute captain of captains was Harry. Perhaps George was right there with Harry, especially in the locker room.
RE: RE: RE: Markky, absolutely....  
steve in ky : 5/27/2020 11:05 am : link
In comment 14911564 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14911553 steve in ky said:


Quote:


In comment 14911369 George from PA said:


Quote:


Kim lost me.....with LT as a leader. On the field, certainly not off of it.....it was all Harry Carson.



While Carson was one of the leaders, I always felt that George Martin was the true leader of those locker rooms and the guy Parcells most relied on if he felt the team needed to be nudged from within.



Steve, that team had several leaders and yes no doubt George Martin was one especially for getting those guys who did not finish their college degrees a chance through FDU. Believe he was the driving force on that program.

I see your point and it is a great one but still believe the absolute captain of captains was Harry. Perhaps George was right there with Harry, especially in the locker room.


I always felt it was the other way around and very telling when Parcells asked George to introduce him for the HOF.
Parcells quote about Martin with relation to BP’s HOF  
steve in ky : 5/27/2020 11:11 am : link
“He was a co-captain and my player representative. He had to please three masters: the organization, the coaching staff, and his teammates. He was unwavering in his support to all three factions. Quite frankly ladies and gentlemen, without his support, I would not be here tonight. He was a great, great help to me.”
When a team is winning they have leaders...  
Milton : 5/27/2020 11:29 am : link
When it isn't winning they don't have leaders. Apparently you don't need to sign and/or draft talent, you just need to sign and/or draft leaders.

Antrel Rolle was no more of a leader than Bethea, Ogletree, etc (and probably far less of one), he just happened to be on the team when they won a Super Bowl. But he knew how to massage the media, so apparently that makes him a leader in Kim's eyes. He certainly loved to talk to the press.

RE: RE: While I'd agree we didn't have a leader  
Biteymax22 : 5/27/2020 11:47 am : link
In comment 14911505 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14911488 Biteymax22 said:


Quote:


and sorely need one. I can't blame the other players on DeAndre Baker's life choices.

The 2007 team had enough leadership to win a SuperBowl, but that didn't stop Plax from shooting himself in the leg the next year...



No one is talking about the incident this summer, we’re talking about falling asleep in meetings, not paying attention and generally being a lazy ass


People are lumping the 2 together. This isn't just about the falling asleep in meetings and being lazy, a lot of that didn't even come out publicly until the arrest.

All of this is a pattern of behavior with him. He hasn't checked any of the boxes in his tenure here, on or off the field.
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