Obviously, his career isn't over. (Although, he does seem on the decline.) So, things may change, but if his career ended today, what would Rodger's legacy be?
It seems like he's been riding the top spot at QB for a decade now and still only has one ring to show for it. Has he underachieved or was he overrated?
He's the lifetime passer rating champ. He won 2 league MVPs, a Bert Bell Award, made 8 pro bowls and two all pro teams. In 12 years as a starter his team has only missed the playoffs 3 times. He's only thrown more than 10 interceptions in a season twice in his career. 47,000 passing yards, 364 TD, 84 INT, 3,000 rushing yards, 28 RushTD
At the same time, he only has one ring. Same as Joe Flacco. Obviously, very different players, but in terms of success...
Where do you place him all time? It seemed like he was destined to be one of if not the best ever. But winning matters. It seems like Brady is the GOAT by far now. Where does that leave Rodgers? Is he even a top 5 QB of all time?
- Brady
- Montana
- Unitas
- Manning
- Bradshaw
- Elway
- Marino
- Starr
- Brees
- Rodgers
Fair as long as guys like Otto Graham and Sammy Baugh get “honorable mentions” even though they played in the early years.
Oh and Roger Staubach has to be top 10, probably bouncing Marino or Brees.
I can't compare those guys to Rodgers, it's just impossible. But they belong on that "Old School Tier" list I mentioned above. Otto Graham in particular might belong on that Top tier next to Unitas considering what a revolutionary figure he was. Graham/Baugh were named to the NFL 100 team recently.
Just posted something similar. I think pre-Unitas guys go in a different tier because who the hell knows what they could do in true passing offense. Hell, they may actually dominate the list!
It's impossible to compare, especially the QB position which is always dependent on scheme. I can watch an old school Gale Sayers clip and know "ok, that dude could absolutely play today" because he was a RB and I only need to see some highlight runs to get a picture of his freak athleticism. But it's so much harder to get context on how good a historic QB is.
Embrace Debate.
ARE WE SURE THAT AARON RODGERS IS THE BEST QUARTERBACK IN THE RODGERS FAMILY?
My column:
Staubach is an interesting one to me. He's got 2 rings and had a really terrific stretch of years. But a shorter, truncated career.
It's easy to imagine if he goes right into the NFL he's right up there. But he's really got a 5 year impressive body of work. Because of that he's just outside of the top 10 for me.
No one is coming close to that spread for a long long time. He’s literally doing something unseen in the history of the league and not just for a few years but for his entire career. And that spread barely changes in the post season when most QBs aren’t able to duplicate their regular season production.
We talk all day about Jones and needing to correct fumbling to decrease turnovers, well, Exhibit A...
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by bringing in the Eli Bootlicking argument (on a Giants board, no less), then it becomes something that's not debate anymore.
Your debate began and ended with a Rodgers is just a “boring” QB comment. Another poster adamantly argued Rodgers is an “underachiever and overrated” but lists him as the 6th greatest QB ever in the history of the league when pressed.
With these types of statements, I don’t think it takes much to guess there is another agenda going on.
Good God. I have explained what I meant by that. The original question was whether Rodgers was a top 5 QB of all-time. I have heard Rodgers lauded as the most talented QB in the game and hear him spoken of in the top 5, I say he’s overrated based on that.
Me calling him overrated doesn’t mean he’s not a first ballot HOFer, or that he’s not an all-time great. I think Lebron is easily a top 5 player in NBA history, but if I am with a group of people who are saying Lebron is the greatest player ever, I am going to say Lebron is overrated. That is simply the difference on my perception of his ranking versus what others opinion of his ranking is.
After looking at 3 all-time rankings of QBs, and seeing them have Rodgers ranked lower than I would, I acknowledge my premise may be wrong. My perception of where Rodgers was ranked by the pundits looks like it may be higher than he was actually ranked. After seeing some of those rankings, I actually think some of them may be slightly underrating him.
I am also 39 years old. My frame of reference starts in the 80s. I saw more than enough of Montana, Elway, and Marino to form an opinion of them. Bart Starr? Terry Bradshaw? All those old guys? I don’t even try and compare them. I didn’t see them live, the game was totally different, training was different, etc. How does one compare Mike Trout and Babe Ruth? Yeah, you can use WAR, but there are so many other variables.
As for underachieving, I stand by that statement. His regular season achievements are obvious. However, as a player, he is immensely talented, and I thought the Packers GM surrounded him with talent as well. The Packers would tear through the regular season and often disappoint in the postseason. Yes, the postseason is tough. But I would expect at least one more title from Rodgers, especially since he won it early in his career and had really good teams since then. If Mahomes only gets the 1 title, I will say the same. Based on his talent I expect more.
As for the ranking, I have him behind Brady, Marino, Peyton, Elway, and Montana. Young and Brees are close, but I go Rodgers over both. Young didn’t have the longevity. Brees I go with Rodgers due to shoulder issues, dome factor. Minute details but I just rate them as if I am starting my team from scratch. Those are the things I use as tie breakers. I’m not going to argue if someone had Young or Brees ahead.
So I have him at 6, maybe 8 at absolute worst in my lifetime. How many QBs were better than him pre-1980? Are there any? 1-2? 3-4? Hard for me to determine. So he’s likely top 10 all-time for me. I hardly think it’s an insult to him.
How do you comp
No one is coming close to that spread for a long long time. He’s literally doing something unseen in the history of the league and not just for a few years but for his entire career. And that spread barely changes in the post season when most QBs aren’t able to duplicate their regular season production.
We talk all day about Jones and needing to correct fumbling to decrease turnovers, well, Exhibit A...
Mahomes could. The kid is special.
Wilson won’t have the TDs, those offenses just aren’t built for that. But if they ever turn into a high powered offense he’s going to have some monster years.
They are really the only guys I can see from this generation being able to do it and it’s still a long shot.
When really it’s he is one of the best ever.
I think we’re good.
Is Rodgers top five all time? To me, no way.
Rodgers has won a million playoff games and won a super bowl title. He’s going to remembered as one of the best QBs of all time. Maybe he’s got one more in him but he’s running out of time.
Again, QBs are on the field for what? 40, 45% of the team's snaps? And when they're on the field, they rely on the work of 10 other teammates. It's the largest roster in team sports and requires more from its coaching staff than any other sport.
QBs are incredibly important-- the most important position by far. But they only have so much influence.
In some ways, a QB's record is like a starting pitcher's record in that it isn't necessarily the best indicator of performance given all of the things outside of the pitcher's control that affect it.
It's not.
But that final drive against the Cardinals in the playoffs a month later was insane. The 4th and long conversion and then the hail mary under a blitz.
Rodgers is probably the best highlight worthy QB of all time. He certainly scared you to death, and there are times he makes throws that no defense can stop. The Niners defense with Fangio and Harbaugh were enough to beat Rodgers but he always made a throw or two that got past them. That's a great QB.
At the same time there's something about his clutchness in big games -- you can beat the fight out of him a bit more easily than expected of a top top QB. It's in this area that Russell Wilson is actually more consistent, maybe best with Brady/Montana (god damn I hate typing this stuff) at never being completely out of a game mentally....hence why he's seen as a much better QB than he really is.
It's an important point that needs to be brought up because with identical mental fortitude, Rodgers was way better than Wilson and still is in most ways. While it's happened, Wilson has been blown out less and I can't always say his defense helped him (fuck, now I'm losing it....).
Now maybe in Rodgers' defense a long time in Green Bay is to blame somewhat, or maybe not.
The ultimate question I think is whether Rodgers could have made the 49ers SB champions if they drafted him. Many incorrectly assume it would have been a slam dunk to 5 titles (with hindsight and not understanding how those Harbaugh teams were built). He would have been starting by 2005 not 2008, with no Favre to sit behind for 3 seasons, probably no McCarthy after one season, a shitty coach in Nolan, shittier organization in general. And he probably would have been better than Smith by enough to not get the best draft picks either. Maybe instead of 6-10 to 8-8 squads, they might have been a 9-11 win team instead. The question is whether he would have had the mental fortitude to be with that team a long time if he has the attitude he's had with better teams. Smith was drafted for being a people pleaser versus stubborn Aaron (you have to believe the rumor), but turned out to be 10 times as mentally tough, proven every single year on 3 different teams, and even after his brutal injury.
Lots of what ifs. Rodgers' was undeniably robbed of a SB appearance against New England by some super unfortunate luck in Seattle in 2014 NFC Championship. Hard to say if they would have beaten New England.
Young and Brees are both 1 Lombardi a piece with similar excuses for not having more, Marino one less. Maybe it's not so bad. Brady and Montana were blessed with better clutch genes than the rest and better organizations which explains the difference. Eli Manning is in a similar boat that way as well.
Rodgers maybe not as great as he once was but still very good.
Steve Young is the guy who's most similar to Rodgers. This is one where Rodgers actually has the longevity advantage. But Young's passing stats are actually superior, he was an even more dangerous running threat, and he had similar success in the playoffs. I think Young definitely has a case vs. Rodgers, although I'd lean Rodgers gun to my head because I like his arm better and I have less questions about his supporting cast and system's effect on his performance.
I think Young has been a bit underrated when discussion over top QBs of the '90s/all time is brought up.
Having Rice & Taylor clouds things when Young had to overcome those Cowboy teams.
Even to this day I'd say the Cowboys were slightly better than the Niners talent wise, but Young was the difference in both the two years he lost and the year they finally won.
Cowboys just were unfair in the trenches, and they had Haley.
There's a lot more parody in this version of NFL so dominant defenses generally don't stay that way for very long. I feel like the last truly dominant defense that wrecked the league for multiple years in a row were the circa-2000 Ravens. Since then you've had the Seahwaks, 49ers, Steelers, Ravens again, Bucs, Broncos and a few others with outlier seasons maybe but nothing that i'd consider a consistent force.
And with wildcard teams now winning Superbowls its truly an "Any Given Sunday" league.
I think there is an important distinction when discussing the greatest of all time, and it's the same question I've heard a couple of times when discussing whether somebody is a HOF'er or not.
"Can you tell the story of the NFL without them".
And this sort of clarifies the point I made a couple of days ago about "memorable/signature moments".
What is Aaron Rodgers part of the story of the NFL, why was he important, and what makes it more important than say a Terry Bradshaw, Roger Staubach, or Ken Stabler?
For some reason you don't find it impressive, or if you do you aren't really stating it or how important it is. And while this conversation is subjective in nature I don't think its fair not to recognize the areas of his game that he has a massive leg up on.
So in 20 years when I reflect on the greatest QB's of my lifetime I'm going to think of how this player who gave me video game highlights on a weekly basis, almost always had his team in the game and rarely threw the game away (something thats normally applauded at every level of play for any other player).
And to add to that when I think of the likely GOAT, Tom Brady, I'm honestly thinking of more than just him. I'm thinking of his coach and that defense for many of those years. I can't do that with Rodgers, no one can.
In 20 years, if the biggest thing I'm thinking about is his efficiency, then that's not as memorable as let's say Troy Aikman and his teams.
Now Troy Aikman does not belong in the discussion for best of all time, but to me, Troy Aikman will be more memorable to me than Aaron Rodgers, simply because I will remember much more about his career and successes, and big games that I remember from that time period.
It is what it is, and that's just an opinion.
If efficiency and statistics were the main determining factor of greatest of all time, Rodgers would be arguably number one.
Rodgers hits those marks too. Post Peyton Manning he's arguably the face of the NFL, he's the QB of one of the cornerstone franchises in the league, he's the back of arguably the most successful quarterback transition ever, he started his career in a controversial draft freefall, he got caught up in the will he won't he Favre retirement, plus he's a phenomenal football player.
I think one of the big disconnects for me, is the proliferation of fantasy football and how it changed the way people watch and analyze the sport.
I played for a while too, in the early 2000's, but found fantasy started to take away the entertainment of watching the competition, and in many instances caused conflicts of interest in my rooting interests.
Perhaps that is my disconnect, the way people watch the game evolved and I didn't.
Disclaimer: That is not meant as an insult to Rodgers, stats, or fantasy... Just an observation.
But what signature moment does he have, other than just being the best player on the field every time he laces up his cleats?
I think when we talk about signature moments and memorable moments,we can fall into a perception trick. It's like a diving catch in baseball. It's incredible to see, excites us, and we remember it. But is it really any better or greater than if the outfielder got a better jump, tracked the ball on a better route, and caught it casually in stride?
If a QB makes bad throws on 2nd and 3rd downs, and then comes up with a big 4th and long, it's more memorable-- but is that 1-for-3 series really better than if he just made that same throw on 2nd down?
Sports is entertainment for fans. Yes, we want to watch our teams win. But the memories are of course important. If the Giants just beat the crap out of the Patriots the first time around, it would have been awesome to see and perhaps told an even better story of that Giants team.
But as a fan, in hindsight, I love that it came down to the 4th quarter and came down to the play with Eli and Tyree. That memory/memorable moment is worth more to me than the box score.
And so I think there are many ways to get into the HOF, and signature moments can be a part of that calculation.
But when I think of greatness, I think more about overall performance and less about individual moments.
I think Rodgers is a dick, my memories of him are playing the game like he was a cheat code. Ridiculous throws, efficiency, didn't throw interceptions, and seemed to put points on the board quickly.
He and Peyton are the two best I've ever seen. I'm excited to see how Mahomes continues his career.
He has simply been better at QB during this time than anybody else. That’s his legacy if it ended today.
He has simply been better at QB during this time than anybody else. That’s his legacy if it ended today.
I don't agree he's been better than everybody else. Tom Brady has been better than everybody else for the past 20 years, and everything backs that up.
And (yet another) signature win in the Superbowl with the comeback against Atlanta and being the only QB to win an overtime game in Superbowl history.
What has Rodgers done better than that?
Not to mention a multiple time all-pro, 2nd team all pro, passing TD leader several times, and passing yards leader.
Should I go on?
That's what I think of when I think Aaron Rodgers. All-time great arm who consistently made jaw-dropping throws look easy.
Mahomes is the first guy we've seen since that has a similar ability.
On the other hand, Peyton went to the SB with four different head coaches (granted his last one he was carried there) and tt's why I just feel more confident in my belief that more of Peyton's success was due to Peyton than Brady's to Brady.
But I've always been a Peyton guy. Rodgers was the first one to come along to make me question whether I was seeing the position played at a higher individual level.
If Brady was a passenger on all those teams that would be one thing, but he has been the greatest performer on all of those teams by a large margin.
For 20 years, he's been the constant.
Not to mention a multiple time all-pro, 2nd team all pro, passing TD leader several times, and passing yards leader.
Should I go on?
Rodgers has a few league MVPs, multiple all pro and numerous pro bowls over same time.
Should I go on and list them for you too?
Tom Brady hasn't exactly been playing with superstars for the past decade.
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I actually left out 2010, which would have added a 2nd League MVP in the last decade.
Not to mention a multiple time all-pro, 2nd team all pro, passing TD leader several times, and passing yards leader.
Should I go on?
Rodgers has a few league MVPs, multiple all pro and numerous pro bowls over same time.
Should I go on and list them for you too?
Please, go ahead and do a side by side of 2010-2019, Tom Brady vs. Aaron Rodgers accomplishments. Be honest though, don't cherry pick, include everything.
So while I hear you, I guess I find it kind of shocking still that his level of play is boring, which is the focal point of your argument. Which to me, and this is simply my opinion, is a really bad argument.
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In comment 14912975 Britt in VA said:
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I actually left out 2010, which would have added a 2nd League MVP in the last decade.
Not to mention a multiple time all-pro, 2nd team all pro, passing TD leader several times, and passing yards leader.
Should I go on?
Rodgers has a few league MVPs, multiple all pro and numerous pro bowls over same time.
Should I go on and list them for you too?
Please, go ahead and do a side by side of 2010-2019, Tom Brady vs. Aaron Rodgers accomplishments. Be honest though, don't cherry pick, include everything.
Really...I was hoping I didnt have to? Look at Wikipedia. There all listed on right hand side, nice and neatly.
So while I hear you, I guess I find it kind of shocking still that his level of play is boring, which is the focal point of your argument. Which to me, and this is simply my opinion, is a really bad argument.
Saying his play is "boring" set this off in the wrong direction.
I poorly molded my point over a series of posts that were connected but probably appeared independent of each other.
What I meant was, and boring was too strong a word, I just don't remember any one thing in particular about the guy in any one game or big moment that I still think about or pops into my mind when I think of Aaron Rodgers.
I just think: he's great. His numbers are insane. It's like I know he's great but my mind can't pinpoint any one reason other than just, wow, those numbers.
As somebody that is not a numbers guy, it just doesn't stand out to me. That's it.
If Brady was a passenger on all those teams that would be one thing, but he has been the greatest performer on all of those teams by a large margin.
For 20 years, he's been the constant.
Sure you can. If you are going to use "signature moments" as a benchmark than i'm sure as hell going to look at team composition and coaching. You are actually the one cherry picking here...
Ok. I understand the SB wins make it tough but I was trying to focus on just the QB play which is not cut and dry.
You've explained yourself above much better than you did initially. I can't make you a numbers guy and I change what's entertaining to you. I just feel that both of those things you've beaten us with as reasons why Rodgers isn't near the top of the all time list and to me its a weak argument.
In the end there are players in sports who make the best of great situations and the best of less than ideal situations. This speaks directly to Brady and Rodgers but we are seeing it now too - Mahomes vs almost everyone else.
That isn't to say Mahomes isn't amazing or wouldn't be on say, the Browns, but he's benefitted tremendously for being drafted by Reid and playing with those weapons - if that doesn't matter than what does?
I'm fairly certain Mahomes has 0 rings today if he was the #1 overall draft pick that year. Situation matters greatly.
However, the question posed in the op is much more nuanced and complicated, and that's what my entire take on this thread is based on. His place all time. Much more subjective and I've stated my reasons for it.
It's clear to me now that the disconnect is metrics and stats. I'm just not a subscriber to them in football.