Seems like the BBI sentiment is that Hal Hunters coaching was the problem with the Oline last year.
While their could be SOME truth to that, you can’t look at the talent level of our offensive line last year and think dominance. We had a journeyman RT that was past his best days of football and Halapio is one of the biggest reasons we cannot block the A-gaps which brings the entire line down. He was never going to be the answer at center.! Solder has a shitty year in general.
Given all that, the O-line was middle of the road which was actually an improvement from past years. Not sure why it’s been pinned squarely on Hal’s shoulders by many here.
Look, coaching makes a huge difference. There are millions of examples throughout the league over the years of position coaches coming in and dramatically improving the quality of play within a unit.
Hal never had any success as a position coach before landing here and the only reason he even got the job was because he is buddies with Shurmur.
Yeah and I don’t think it’s because of coaching. I think it’s more that we had a journeyman center that has sucked since day 1 and Spencer Pulley begins him.
The talent at center has been dreadful for a long time and honestly has held the team back for a long time even when we have guards that are capable. The center brings the whole line down when you have terrible play there.
Certainly coaching didn't help.
I've not been around much lately but this is literally the first time that I have read that here.
I've seen a lot of Solder bashing, Center of choice bashing, Remmer bashing, Zeitler bashing, even Hernandez bashing. But not too much saying that these are all great guys, held back by coaching.
I do need to get on here more.
We needed to add a ton of talent to the line but that doesn't excuse some of the basic shit that was happening over and over and never getting better.
That says it all.
I bet if we have Norv over Shurmur things would have been a lot different, haha.
Do you think Wilkinson was the band aid to Hunter’s “badness”?
Bill Callahan was able to get something out of ereck flowers and got him another contract. This is what good coaches can do.
The players have to accept culpability, and that is why the giants drafted 3 offensive linemen and added Fleming in free agency, but hal hunter was responsible too. There is a reason he was unemployed for 2 years prior to shurmur bringing him in and there is a reason he is unemployed now.
Now you can blame it on the players but the coach has to get a lot of the nlame. Solder came here and has had one of the worst stretches in his career. Hernandez has not improved and perhaps got worse. Pio is just terrible. Zeitler had one of the worst seasons in his career. Our RT situation has not been good either. Add in Ellison who was touted as an above average blocker before he came here, he was also terrible at blocking.
When things are bad you get most of the blame and when Hunter was here things were very bad and guys had the worst stretches of their careers. This season will tell us how bad Hal Hunter really was. If Solder plays better thats on Hunter, if Hernandez players considerably better thats on Hunter. Ill give him a bit of a pass on Zeitler. If we for some reason resign Pio and he starts for us and plays well then you can clearly see that Hunter was a major problem. Time will tell but I have a feeling the entire OL will be much improved even with no mini camps.
Hunter had a less than stellar resume prior to coming here and clearly wasn't "in demand" or he wouldn't have been just hanging out waiting for a phone call when we hired him.
The reality is that there was more than likely a good reason for this. Guys get reputations around the league and if Hal's was good, there would have been competition for him.
^^^^THIS^^^^
BBI'ers are NOT complaining in hindsight here. When Hunter was hired, the fact he was out of work for a year before the Giants PLUS the mediocre lines where he had been were huge red flags. Many of us said things like, "Man, this guy's resume is not good."
The thing that is so maddening is it was a known quantity coming he. He nearly got Luck killed. And what did we expect in NY?
The definition of insanity.
Based on the eyeball test they were horrible. I would say easily one of the five worst.
Maybe the talent level was more on par with what we had in the time frame that he was with the Cults?
I was getting ready to post the same sentiment before I saw it mentioned. Coaching makes a hell of a difference.
Head coaching record
Regular season: 114–122–1 (.483)
Postseason: 4–4 (.500)
Career: 118–126–1 (.484)
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Hunter was out of football for a year or two prior to coming to the Giants. At his previous job in Indianapolis the offensive line allowed over 60 sacks during his final season coaching there.
^^^^THIS^^^^
BBI'ers are NOT complaining in hindsight here. When Hunter was hired, the fact he was out of work for a year before the Giants PLUS the mediocre lines where he had been were huge red flags. Many of us said things like, "Man, this guy's resume is not good."
I think most people saw Solari > Hunter as a considerable downgrade, but I can't say I was thrilled about Solari's tenure, either. I was hopeful (but only that) about Hunter coming in and turning around his track record, but a tiger doesn't change his stripes. His units' performance, as an NFL OL coach, has been consistently below average.
Strategy/Design
First, you need to have a scheme that fits the abilities of the lineman and the backs - as individuals - and as a unit. It needs to have inherent flexibility and nuance built into it so that you can adjust and react to individual matchups and scheme variances. Coaching does this.
Execution
You have 5 players who must react - as a unit - to constantly evolving scenarios. The timing is critical. They need to know who - or where - they are blocking prior to the play and often need to adjust as the play unfolds. The slightest indecision slows players down. The reactions must be ingrained and automatic - coaching does this.
Technique
Players need to be taught the techniques that will be required to execute the design. Hand placement, footwork, body positioning, pulling, trapping, double teams, reactions to stunts, passing players off, etc... This is coaching.
Motivation
The players need to be motivated to perform at their highest level. Some players need more confidence and support and some need a kick in the pants. Many players are self-motivated, but others will respond to outside influences. Good coaches know what buttons to push to get the most out of a player and a unit. This is coaching.
Ability
Of course, the individual players must have a certain athletic foundation of strength, agility, and speed to be successful. The strength and conditioning coach can help with this, but a certain core skillset is needed.
Coaching matters more in football than any other sport. It can be, and often is, the difference between winning and losing games.
Finally -
On defense. A great play by one player can erase mistakes made by the other 10. For example, Osi gets a strip-sack on Farve a second before he can throw it to a wide-open receiver.
On offense, a mistake by ONE player can ruin the great work of the other 10 players. 4 OL get pancakes and one whiffs - the result is a tackle for a loss.
I am optimistic this year based on the roster - but even more so because of the coaching. This staff just seems better. The results will tell.
I was getting ready to post the same sentiment before I saw it mentioned. Coaching makes a hell of a difference.
I was just going to mention the Redskins line from last year. Trent Williams sat out the whole season and they used a broken down Donald Penn at LT for much of the season plus Ereck Flowers at LG and they also lost their center for several games and I believe their RT as well. Their line still played better than ours despite all that.
I'm not suggesting that the Giants line is outstanding but they shouldn't be playing as bad as they did last season. You can't name a single offensive lineman that got better in the two years that Hunter was here. In fact most regressed under him.
Not only that I want to see how Flowers performs after getting paid.
I expect the Browns to have one of the league's best offensive lines with Callahan in charge plus the additions of Conklin and Wills at tackle.
I expect a very different look with offensive coaches who know what the offense is, what is expected of them, and how to teach their players. We’ll see what begins to happen this year which will be a strange year. But i do expect a more synchronized offense, better offensive line play for a potentially great rb, and a very young qb learning a new offense under difficult conditions.
Wish i could still go to Albany to watch developments as well as drink and discuss with friends, but football wise, the offense will be much better, run with coaches doing teaching, head coach NOT calling plays, and a non WCO.
I hope we get to find out soon.
Seems on the surface Judge has done a better job of putting a staff together than his predecessors.
In Hunter's case, it may have been fairly consistent toward the negative, and the coolness on the Shurmur hire may well have leaked to his hires, not hard in Hunter's case because of the quality of and gaps in his resume.
But, in terms of what HH had to work with, BBI Sentiment was riding more positive. I was too, except in the case of Pio. In my OP spring 2019 I noted that no fewer than three teams, NEng twice, had signed and then cut him four times. NEng in 2014 signed him to a 4-year deal in May, cut him that August.
Only the Giants held on to him, THREE times, beg. in 2016. That should inform as to the desperation here.
But, BBI Sentiment: in my thread, it was 50/50, more or less, with those in his corner falling back on, "the coaching staff likes him", and of course Gettleman's sleep number.
If HH's resume was so bad, why was BBI split on a resume that was arguably as bad or worse? Nothing more than hunches and, the fact he'd not been cut, again, the coaches must like him.
Hopefully, HH and Pio are gone like the wind, as quixotic as BBI Sentiment.
Solder has played at a championship level and has also had his moments.
Halapio has had some good games, and a whole load of bad games.
Remmer played, and had just come from, a resurgent Vikings team offense and was part of the resurgence of their oline.
Let's not put lip gloss on Hal Hunter. All these players, all of whom have had success, all of them, slid backwards last year. They were underwhelming as a unit, often looked unprepared, often acted unprepared, and collectively, and despite their past demonstrated talent, played poorly and regressed.
The only unifying theme here, besides these players having had successes in the past, is that Hal Hunter, who's last team notoriously under-performed under his leadership, was in charge of yet another under-performing offensive line.
I really think the OP is mischaracterizing the talent/skill set of the Oline personnel in his opening statement. Maybe he's just trying to generate discussion, but I disagree with his assumptions emphatically. Hunter's abilities are really questionable based on his last two assignments, what he was working with, and how they performed so consistently with the performance of his last unit.
That's my take.
And scheme. Chandler Jones just stood right in front of Zeitler and Remmer and just waltzed by them untouched. Never seen that before.
I'm willing to agree that Hal Hunter didn't do a very good job, but the notion that the Giants had a lot of OL talent is a joke. Hopefully, Thomas changes that.
I'm willing to agree that Hal Hunter didn't do a very good job, but the notion that the Giants had a lot of OL talent is a joke. Hopefully, Thomas changes that.
It's kinda like you and ketchup, you only remember and taste what you want to remember, Halapio has had good games, just not a lot of them and under Hunter any competency he was either forgotten or went backwards.
Zeitler being successful in Cleveland and coming here and declining is exactly the argument I made for blaming Hunter.
Say what you want to say about Remmer -- but he was part of a very good resurgent line in Minnesota just before coming to the Giants.
You want to pan Solder, go right ahead, the guy was a vet LT on a championship team. He certainly needed to play better than he did, but he regressed like the entire squad did.
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When was that??? Mike Remmers is a journeyman with a bad back. Zeitler may have been successful in Cleveland, but his reputation was vastly inflated on here when he was acquired, with many people calling him an All-Pro when he'd never so much as made a Pro Bowl. Solder was never anything special.
I'm willing to agree that Hal Hunter didn't do a very good job, but the notion that the Giants had a lot of OL talent is a joke. Hopefully, Thomas changes that.
It's kinda like you and ketchup, you only remember and taste what you want to remember, Halapio has had good games, just not a lot of them and under Hunter any competency he was either forgotten or went backwards.
Zeitler being successful in Cleveland and coming here and declining is exactly the argument I made for blaming Hunter.
Say what you want to say about Remmer -- but he was part of a very good resurgent line in Minnesota just before coming to the Giants.
You want to pan Solder, go right ahead, the guy was a vet LT on a championship team. He certainly needed to play better than he did, but he regressed like the entire squad did.
The center is the key to the offensive line. If the center sucks the entire line gets dragged down with it because now the guards are stepping in to help the center I pass protection and then the tackles have to backfill for the guards. Or even worse the center who sucks gets left on an island to get completely destroyed (see the Dallas game and the stunts on the A gap).
Halapio has sucked for his entire career here and we put him between 2 good guards and thought they would elevate their play and that is not the case.
Remembers was moved to guard at Minny and he was absolutely terrible there. BBI all thought he would be just fine at his natural position of RT. I’m willing to say he lost whatever step he had at this point.
Hal Hunter isn’t free of any blame, but he certainly isn’t the scapegoat he’s been made out to be.
thanks to everyone
Hal Hunter is the poster child for the good old boy network in the NFL. I’ve seen it firsthand in business and it happens all the time in sports where they recycle people who held a certain position and hire them again and again for the same job when they never really did that good a job anywhere. It’s something that I’ve never understood yet it happens again and again.
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is waiting for just the right job.
Hal Hunter is the poster child for the good old boy network in the NFL. I’ve seen it firsthand in business and it happens all the time in sports where they recycle people who held a certain position and hire them again and again for the same job when they never really did that good a job anywhere. It’s something that I’ve never understood yet it happens again and again.
Maybe HH was the best Shurmur could get? Do position coaches avoid head coaches they see as doomed?
and Hunter was part of the problem 'as well as' the talent level.
Changes and additions have been made to both the coaching and talent. If we've made the right decisions in those areas we continue the work of rejuvenating an O-Line that has been headed in the wrong direction for the better part of a decade now.