but the current kickoff rules make onside kicks almost impossible. They may have improved safety but they have weakened the product on the field. Another solution is needed.
This was not a solution. People may not like the way it currently is but why should things come easy? If a team puts themselves into a position to need a low percentage onsides kick then so be it. Why should a team have an advantage with a 4th and 15 in an offensive league? They are turning this sport into a 2 phase game instead of 3 phases. It is ruining the sport imo.
The game doesn't need more offensive favored gimmicks. Teams shouldn't be given more bailouts to overturn 58 minutes of game play. The low success rate of onside kicks should reflect the desperate situation you've been placed in due to being outplayed.
Well done.
RE: In today's NFL getting 15 yards is a joke especially with PI.
This was not a solution. People may not like the way it currently is but why should things come easy? If a team puts themselves into a position to need a low percentage onsides kick then so be it. Why should a team have an advantage with a 4th and 15 in an offensive league? They are turning this sport into a 2 phase game instead of 3 phases. It is ruining the sport imo.
Been in decline for a long time now. Sadly this sport will diminish in quality as we become more and more "safe". Then again so did the Gladiators, perhaps a good thing?
The game doesn't need more offensive favored gimmicks. Teams shouldn't be given more bailouts to overturn 58 minutes of game play. The low success rate of onside kicks should reflect the desperate situation you've been placed in due to being outplayed.
Well done.
As a purist I agree, but since converting a 4th and 15 is easier than recovering an onsides kick, this rule change could have potentially kept fans and viewers interested in a game that they would otherwise rightly conclude is likely over. And that interest might generate additional revenue.
RE: RE: In today's NFL getting 15 yards is a joke especially with PI.
This was not a solution. People may not like the way it currently is but why should things come easy? If a team puts themselves into a position to need a low percentage onsides kick then so be it. Why should a team have an advantage with a 4th and 15 in an offensive league? They are turning this sport into a 2 phase game instead of 3 phases. It is ruining the sport imo.
Been in decline for a long time now. Sadly this sport will diminish in quality as we become more and more "safe". Then again so did the Gladiators, perhaps a good thing?
I mean, there's no need to put safe in quotations. It is getting safer, but it is changing what the game was. Not mutually exclusive. I agree though, eventually there will be a point where the game is fundamentally different, unfortunately.
silly defensive (holding) penalties that would let the offense keep the ball - you get one called against you, away from the play, and it's an automatic first down. WAY more likely than an onsides kick and too ripe for potential abuse.
also just a little gimmicky as previously mentioned...
The last thing the NFL should be considering is further damaging the quality of play for economic benefit. The league is extremely profitable. The only potential threat to that is mucking about with the product on the field by enacting proposals like this one.
bring back the old onside kicks or do something to slightly increase the odds of recovering. It's not nearly the collision danger full speed kick returns are since it's a short area and there are probably things they could do to make it a little safer.
According to Francesser about 10% of onside kicks are recovered by the kicking team. Thats fine with me. A team that is trailing by more than a touchdown in the final minutes is supposed to lose most of the time.
According to Francesser about 10% of onside kicks are recovered by the kicking team. Thats fine with me. A team that is trailing by more than a touchdown in the final minutes is supposed to lose most of the time.
EXACTLY! that's what makes it an exciting "miracle play" when it works.
and it should be decided by special teams, not offense and defense
just bring the old rule back for onside kicks only
I agree. Outside of the rare surprise that the Saints pulled off everyone knows when an onside kick is coming so let them play it the same way they did In the past in the final four minutes of the game.
Glad it didn't pass. What's next? When a player crosses the goal line his uniform will start flashing? The game is turning in to a video game as is....
According to Francesser about 10% of onside kicks are recovered by the kicking team. Thats fine with me. A team that is trailing by more than a touchdown in the final minutes is supposed to lose most of the time.
EXACTLY! that's what makes it an exciting "miracle play" when it works.
10% with the current rules? Or the old rules? Or, which rule set is 10% success rate?
The game doesn't need more offensive favored gimmicks. Teams shouldn't be given more bailouts to overturn 58 minutes of game play. The low success rate of onside kicks should reflect the desperate situation you've been placed in due to being outplayed.
The game doesn't need more offensive favored gimmicks. Teams shouldn't be given more bailouts to overturn 58 minutes of game play. The low success rate of onside kicks should reflect the desperate situation you've been placed in due to being outplayed.
Well done.
As a purist I agree, but since converting a 4th and 15 is easier than recovering an onsides kick, this rule change could have potentially kept fans and viewers interested in a game that they would otherwise rightly conclude is likely over. And that interest might generate additional revenue.
Last I checked the NFL was already ridiculously popular.
Make the kickers more important. What is some kind of skill play that the kicker could do?
Some ideas of the top of my head....
1. Kick a 65 yard field goal = get the ball at the 20....oh or maybe its kick a 60 yarder and get it at the 5, or risk it at 65 yards and get the ball at say the 25 yard line? Add a little game of chance by the coach depend on the situation (i.e. time left on the clock)!
2. Directional punter skills comp...ball has to land between the 10 yard line and goal line and bounce out of bounds. Defense can try to block. If 10 is too easy, make it 5 yard line?
3. Kicker has to get the ball to land in the endzone without going out of bounds. Defense can have 1 player defend the goal line and try to stop any balls that hit in the field of play outside the endzone (i.e. a ball that is rolling/bouncing towards the endzone).
4. A game of Dodgeball? haha
5. Kicker has to hit one of the uprights on the goal post. would have to test the probability to determine distance away.
6. From the Pro Bowl Skills Showdown... "a game called "Kick Tac Toe," where kickers will try to hit a grid of targets inside the uprights."
The current 10% rate is half what the recovery rate was before the rule change. Teams used to recover onside kicks between 20-25% per season. Coincidentally, teams convert 3rd and 4th and 15 around 25% of the time.
This is about getting teams to be able to get the ball back when down around the same rate they would prior to the rule change without bringing back a dangerous play.
V.I.G. posted these in the last thread bout this. Let's not overstate how easy it is to convert 4th and 15 or how often automatic first down penalties are called
a defensive penalty resulting in an automatic first down looks to happen about 2% of the time.
V.I.G. posted these in the last thread bout this. Let's not overstate how easy it is to convert 4th and 15 or how often automatic first down penalties are called
a defensive penalty resulting in an automatic first down looks to happen about 2% of the time.
Nice graphic. 2% of the time is accurate I'm sure when you look at every single 3rd down snap over 196 games played in a regular season. However under the bright lights in a tight game, we all know that number is significantly higher....could be as high as 20-25% in the modern game.
The graphic shows 3rd and 15 converts at 25%. Mahomes was able to convert that aided by a no holding call on Bosa in the Super Bowl.....regular season or a lesser name QB, probably not.
The way you implement this rule is to find a way to really curtail penalties (and eliminate cheap ones like defensive holding, automatic first down).
The game doesn't need more offensive favored gimmicks. Teams shouldn't be given more bailouts to overturn 58 minutes of game play. The low success rate of onside kicks should reflect the desperate situation you've been placed in due to being outplayed.
I was hoping 4th and 15 would pass. However, I have to admit that Torrag's statement above has actually made me rethink my position on the issue. Well said Torag.
I don't think there was one non surprise onside kick recovered
with a team down one score. I saw a few recovered when the other team essentially had the game in hand, but I can't remember one recovered that gave a team a chance to win.
The new rule would create more room for aggressive decision-making and more interesting ends of games.
Well done.
Been in decline for a long time now. Sadly this sport will diminish in quality as we become more and more "safe". Then again so did the Gladiators, perhaps a good thing?
Well done.
As a purist I agree, but since converting a 4th and 15 is easier than recovering an onsides kick, this rule change could have potentially kept fans and viewers interested in a game that they would otherwise rightly conclude is likely over. And that interest might generate additional revenue.
Quote:
This was not a solution. People may not like the way it currently is but why should things come easy? If a team puts themselves into a position to need a low percentage onsides kick then so be it. Why should a team have an advantage with a 4th and 15 in an offensive league? They are turning this sport into a 2 phase game instead of 3 phases. It is ruining the sport imo.
Been in decline for a long time now. Sadly this sport will diminish in quality as we become more and more "safe". Then again so did the Gladiators, perhaps a good thing?
also just a little gimmicky as previously mentioned...
That is all.
Keep it simple.
EXACTLY! that's what makes it an exciting "miracle play" when it works.
That is all.
HAHA! I was going to post the same.
just bring the old rule back for onside kicks only
just bring the old rule back for onside kicks only
I agree. Outside of the rare surprise that the Saints pulled off everyone knows when an onside kick is coming so let them play it the same way they did In the past in the final four minutes of the game.
Quote:
According to Francesser about 10% of onside kicks are recovered by the kicking team. Thats fine with me. A team that is trailing by more than a touchdown in the final minutes is supposed to lose most of the time.
EXACTLY! that's what makes it an exciting "miracle play" when it works.
10% with the current rules? Or the old rules? Or, which rule set is 10% success rate?
This season, teams will have three slots for activating players who were placed on injured reserve, instead of two.
In another attempt to curtail concussions, kick and punt returners must be given time to ward off impending contact before they are hit.
Link - ( New Window )
Not against some of the defenses the Giants have fielded the last few years.
Well done.
Couldn't agree more! Excellent post.
Quote:
The game doesn't need more offensive favored gimmicks. Teams shouldn't be given more bailouts to overturn 58 minutes of game play. The low success rate of onside kicks should reflect the desperate situation you've been placed in due to being outplayed.
Well done.
As a purist I agree, but since converting a 4th and 15 is easier than recovering an onsides kick, this rule change could have potentially kept fans and viewers interested in a game that they would otherwise rightly conclude is likely over. And that interest might generate additional revenue.
Last I checked the NFL was already ridiculously popular.
Some ideas of the top of my head....
1. Kick a 65 yard field goal = get the ball at the 20....oh or maybe its kick a 60 yarder and get it at the 5, or risk it at 65 yards and get the ball at say the 25 yard line? Add a little game of chance by the coach depend on the situation (i.e. time left on the clock)!
2. Directional punter skills comp...ball has to land between the 10 yard line and goal line and bounce out of bounds. Defense can try to block. If 10 is too easy, make it 5 yard line?
3. Kicker has to get the ball to land in the endzone without going out of bounds. Defense can have 1 player defend the goal line and try to stop any balls that hit in the field of play outside the endzone (i.e. a ball that is rolling/bouncing towards the endzone).
4. A game of Dodgeball? haha
5. Kicker has to hit one of the uprights on the goal post. would have to test the probability to determine distance away.
6. From the Pro Bowl Skills Showdown... "a game called "Kick Tac Toe," where kickers will try to hit a grid of targets inside the uprights."
What you got?
This is about getting teams to be able to get the ball back when down around the same rate they would prior to the rule change without bringing back a dangerous play.
a defensive penalty resulting in an automatic first down looks to happen about 2% of the time.
a defensive penalty resulting in an automatic first down looks to happen about 2% of the time.
Nice graphic. 2% of the time is accurate I'm sure when you look at every single 3rd down snap over 196 games played in a regular season. However under the bright lights in a tight game, we all know that number is significantly higher....could be as high as 20-25% in the modern game.
The graphic shows 3rd and 15 converts at 25%. Mahomes was able to convert that aided by a no holding call on Bosa in the Super Bowl.....regular season or a lesser name QB, probably not.
The way you implement this rule is to find a way to really curtail penalties (and eliminate cheap ones like defensive holding, automatic first down).
I was hoping 4th and 15 would pass. However, I have to admit that Torrag's statement above has actually made me rethink my position on the issue. Well said Torag.