"For a rookie quarterback with not a lot of talent around him,” he continued, “they were basically asking him: ‘Hey, Daniel, we need you to throw the ball 40 times, you’re probably going to have to throw four touchdowns and no more than one interception if we want to win a football game.’ That’s basically what it came down to.”
and he is still learning. Hopefully by now we can all just agree to give DG and the Giants a pass on why they drafted him with the first pick last year. They obviously saw what everyone else is seeing now and just did not want to risk another team having him high on their list.. moving up to take him, etc
I like Jones make up and talent and was excited watching him play
but i wonder if he doesn't have more 'Archie' than 'Eli' in him. It could be the dreary weather, but if you look at his college and, albiet, extremely short NFL career, he seems to have the 'curse' of being surrounded by lesser talent, like I believe Archie was in New Orleans. I hope the Giants can turn that around because DJ has the heart to do everything he can to win and the ability to do it; but if he's constantly on the run or constantly getting hit that can change a career awfully quick.
Is it fair to say that Rosenblatt is our best beat writer?
kind of funny that the best two guys in recent memory (Garafolo and Rosenblatt) were both Eagles guys. Garafolo is an Eagles fan and Rosenblatt covered the Eagles.
and he is still learning. Hopefully by now we can all just agree to give DG and the Giants a pass on why they drafted him with the first pick last year. They obviously saw what everyone else is seeing now and just did not want to risk another team having him high on their list.. moving up to take him, etc
I think you have this worded wrong. Should be something like:
"...to give Dave G. and Pat S. a ton of credit for identifying the QB they liked and taking him where they needed to so no other team could grab him...."
RE: I like Jones make up and talent and was excited watching him play
but i wonder if he doesn't have more 'Archie' than 'Eli' in him. It could be the dreary weather, but if you look at his college and, albiet, extremely short NFL career, he seems to have the 'curse' of being surrounded by lesser talent, like I believe Archie was in New Orleans. I hope the Giants can turn that around because DJ has the heart to do everything he can to win and the ability to do it; but if he's constantly on the run or constantly getting hit that can change a career awfully quick.
How is that different than any other high draft pick (except for the college having no talent)?
Eli played for Ole Miss and didn't have a heck of a lot of talent around him. Not Duke, but still.
As for the pros, he was drafted at 6. Obviously the team did not have a lot of talent when they drafted him. But hard to see how you are already extrapolating that out another 15 years.
Wow. I saw those NO teams. As bad as Giants were last year, they are not even on the same planet as far as how bad they were. NO was MUCH worse.
DJ has a legitimate chance to be a franchise QB. Jury is still out but he seems to have the tools and more importantly in NY, the mental makeup to be successful.
and he is still learning. Hopefully by now we can all just agree to give DG and the Giants a pass on why they drafted him with the first pick last year. They obviously saw what everyone else is seeing now and just did not want to risk another team having him high on their list.. moving up to take him, etc
I think you have this worded wrong. Should be something like:
"...to give Dave G. and Pat S. a ton of credit for identifying the QB they liked and taking him where they needed to so no other team could grab him...."
I think you have this worded wrong. Should be something like:
"...to give Dave G. and Pat S. a ton of credit for identifying the QB they liked and taking him where they needed to so no other team could grab him...."
One of the common themes here after the draft last year was that we could have waited to get him with our next pick. People were convinced that no other team wanted Jones in the 1st round.
Well... no fans truly know that. If you believe your next franchise QB is there when you are ready to pick, then you take him. It is the most important position on the team.
The analogy is passing a gas station with your fuel low light on THINKING ... but not sure you can make it to the next gas station that is about 50 miles away.
Wow. I saw those NO teams. As bad as Giants were last year, they are not even on the same planet as far as how bad they were. NO was MUCH worse.
DJ has a legitimate chance to be a franchise QB. Jury is still out but he seems to have the tools and more importantly in NY, the mental makeup to be successful.
I agree. I think Jones has everything you could want in a franchise QB in NY. I believe he will be IF he can get the fumbling under control. Between his work ethic, and investment in the OL, I am hopeful on that.
Eli is my favorite Giant of all-time. I am more excited about Jones than I was about Eli at this point in their careers. I can only hope he approaches Eli's success.
Consider: Among 27 quarterbacks that played at least 50% of their team’s snaps, Jones had the second-fewest passing attempts, according to Pro Football Focus, with a clean pocket, meaning he was frequently under pressure. On average, per PFF, Jones averaged 13 pass attempts per game under pressure.
RE: Is it fair to say that Rosenblatt is our best beat writer?
kind of funny that the best two guys in recent memory (Garafolo and Rosenblatt) were both Eagles guys. Garafolo is an Eagles fan and Rosenblatt covered the Eagles.
and he is still learning. Hopefully by now we can all just agree to give DG and the Giants a pass on why they drafted him with the first pick last year. They obviously saw what everyone else is seeing now and just did not want to risk another team having him high on their list.. moving up to take him, etc
I think you have this worded wrong. Should be something like:
"...to give Dave G. and Pat S. a ton of credit for identifying the QB they liked and taking him where they needed to so no other team could grab him...."
That was my 1st thought...
…"a pass?!"
Agreed....interesting choice of words. We have no idea what the thoughts were in the room that day in terms of who had interest in DJ. DG saw who he wanted and went for it. He saw something in this young man and didnt want to risk it multiple picks later. Obviously it is too early to tell for sure, but it looks like it was a great decision. To say he can get "a pass" doesnt make sense.
You can keep Jones and Barkley. I like Jones I thought he was very good for a rookie on a terrible team with a terrible coach. I don't think Darnold is better. I think they're equally qualified to be good starting NFL QBs with different styles and strengths.
But I'll take the pass rushing LB over the RB 100 times out of 100.
He’s well past the “jury still out” phase. Want an example of a guy the jury is still out on. Dwayne Haskins. No comparison between the two and what we know and don’t about them. What we know about DJ is that can throw the rock on an NFL level, We know he can throw it from the pocket, on the run, scrambling and under pressure. He can throw accurately all over the field short, medium and long, We know he’s mobile and can hurt you with his legs. We know he’s smart, steady in the pocket and can parse an NFL defense. If after all of the above that we know about him you think his fumbling last year is keeping the jury out on him, I really don’t know what to tell you.
You can keep Jones and Barkley. I like Jones I thought he was very good for a rookie on a terrible team with a terrible coach. I don't think Darnold is better. I think they're equally qualified to be good starting NFL QBs with different styles and strengths.
But I'll take the pass rushing LB over the RB 100 times out of 100.
Darnold? NFW
RE: RE: I like Jones make up and talent and was excited watching him play
but i wonder if he doesn't have more 'Archie' than 'Eli' in him. It could be the dreary weather, but if you look at his college and, albiet, extremely short NFL career, he seems to have the 'curse' of being surrounded by lesser talent, like I believe Archie was in New Orleans. I hope the Giants can turn that around because DJ has the heart to do everything he can to win and the ability to do it; but if he's constantly on the run or constantly getting hit that can change a career awfully quick.
How is that different than any other high draft pick (except for the college having no talent)?
Eli played for Ole Miss and didn't have a heck of a lot of talent around him. Not Duke, but still.
As for the pros, he was drafted at 6. Obviously the team did not have a lot of talent when they drafted him. But hard to see how you are already extrapolating that out another 15 years.
Good points. I think Eli had more talent on OL and a semblence of a defense. Archie was a LOT more mobile than Eli and survived for a while. I think in todays NFL, mobile QBs who rely MORE on their legs are exposed to a lot more career shortening/ending injuries. That was my Archie comparison. I think Eli, knowing himself and not being mobile, had a greater propensity to throw the ball away a lot quicker (and sometimes too quickly, but I wasn't the one staring a 900 ilb DL in the face;)). I am very early in my projection for DJ's NFL career, but can you blame me. When was the last time the Giants had a decent line? If you make DJ run, he's gonna run. He either holds the ball too long or runs. I feel like those are two really good ways to get injured.
You can keep Jones and Barkley. I like Jones I thought he was very good for a rookie on a terrible team with a terrible coach. I don't think Darnold is better. I think they're equally qualified to be good starting NFL QBs with different styles and strengths.
But I'll take the pass rushing LB over the RB 100 times out of 100.
Darnold? NFW
Darnold is another guy the jury is still more out on than DJ.
You can keep Jones and Barkley. I like Jones I thought he was very good for a rookie on a terrible team with a terrible coach. I don't think Darnold is better. I think they're equally qualified to be good starting NFL QBs with different styles and strengths.
But I'll take the pass rushing LB over the RB 100 times out of 100.
If we're doing this, I'd go:
2018 Bradley Chubb & 2019 Drew Lock
or
2018 Josh Allen & 2019 Devin Bush
If he can fix the fumble issue, he’ll be a great one. It’s a kind of a big if though. I don’t think it’s the easy fix that’s being advertised on here or in some beat articles. It’s a lot more than grip strength.
You can keep Jones and Barkley. I like Jones I thought he was very good for a rookie on a terrible team with a terrible coach. I don't think Darnold is better. I think they're equally qualified to be good starting NFL QBs with different styles and strengths.
But I'll take the pass rushing LB over the RB 100 times out of 100.
I'll take Jones and no Barkley over Darnold and Allen.
Daniel Jones agent believed 3 teams were in the mix
. Agree here. Think the beatings he took at Duke prepared him for a rough start in the NFL behind that poor Giants OL and no Barkley or decent defense. He seemed to improve every game after mid season. We will see.
RE: Daniel Jones agent believed 3 teams were in the mix
And he was convinced DJ would not make it to 17.....asshat.
And the other point to consider....who would you rather have Dexter Lawrence or Josh Allen?
Josh Allen, easily. That’s no knock on Big Dex, but I would prefer Allen. However, although unhappy on draft night, I’m pleased with how it turned out. Don’t fuck with the QB position. Take him if you believe in him
If he can fix the fumble issue, he’ll be a great one. It’s a kind of a big if though. I don’t think it’s the easy fix that’s being advertised on here or in some beat articles. It’s a lot more than grip strength.
In addition to this, it sounds like he needs to be able to beat zone coverage.
You can keep Jones and Barkley. I like Jones I thought he was very good for a rookie on a terrible team with a terrible coach. I don't think Darnold is better. I think they're equally qualified to be good starting NFL QBs with different styles and strengths.
But I'll take the pass rushing LB over the RB 100 times out of 100.
Darnold? NFW
Darnold is another guy the jury is still more out on than DJ.
If he can fix the fumble issue, he’ll be a great one. It’s a kind of a big if though. I don’t think it’s the easy fix that’s being advertised on here or in some beat articles. It’s a lot more than grip strength.
In addition to this, it sounds like he needs to be able to beat zone coverage.
But that level of analysis is above my pay grade.
Personally I think this has more to do with Shurmur's playcalling than anything else. When defenses are in zone, it usually leaves short, quick/easy passes open. That's why most QB's are better against zone than man. The fact that he's been so much better against man is actually a big indicator of just how good his ball placement was and IMO is a good sign of his chances going forward.
With that said, there were times when the defense confused Jones IE where he thought they were in man but were really disguising zone coverage. Rookie QBs struggle to read defenses and coordinators try to fool them. The ones with staying power get better at that over time and process things faster. That's the year two jump I'm hoping we see.
"a pick that, at the time, garnered heavy criticism for general manager Dave Gettleman who, it was said, reached by picking Jones earlier than he should have." .....It was said by you Chris! Own up to it.
He had DJ ranked as the 6th! best QB that year.
Tier 1
Murray
Lock
Haskins
Tier 2
Stidham
Finley
Jones
Tier 3
Thorson
Grier Link - ( New Window )
Jones is 1 of 6 rookies all time to throw for 3000 yards, 20 TD passes while completing 60% of his passes and have 200 rushing yards.
The other 5 are Russell Wilson, RG3, Dak Prescott, Minshew & Kyler Murray.
Yep! And this is just stats, not reality, but project his stats to a full season and it would have been the #1 rookie QB season ever, stats-wise. That's the level he played at for his 3/4 of a season.
RE: I like Chris, but funny how he doesn't mention
"a pick that, at the time, garnered heavy criticism for general manager Dave Gettleman who, it was said, reached by picking Jones earlier than he should have." .....It was said by you Chris! Own up to it.
He had DJ ranked as the 6th! best QB that year.
Tier 1
Murray
Lock
Haskins
Tier 2
Stidham
Finley
Jones
Tier 3
Thorson
Grier Link - ( New Window )
He actually fessed up in an NBC YouTube he did... said he was wrong.
RE: Daniel Jones agent believed 3 teams were in the mix
And he was convinced DJ would not make it to 17.....asshat.
And the other point to consider....who would you rather have Dexter Lawrence or Josh Allen?
Phil Simms has said on numerous occasions that Jones would not have been there at 17. He said to just “trust him” when asked how he knew. Clearly he was told directly from teams that they would have taken Jones.
Now I am relieved that they didn’t. While I think Darnold could still become a great QB he hasn’t progressed as I expected and I believe that Jones is the better QB.
This is just a perfect example of why you should never rush to judgement when it comes to draft picks.
there were so many good things I saw in him as a rookie. He proved he had the arm talent to make bigtime throws, his mobility is clearly an asset, and you can't help but be impressed by his personality.
But I'm really worried about his turnovers. 18 fumbles is insanely high. And although he only had 12 INTs, it really felt like he was a hair away from another half dozen. I think he got lucky when it came to the INTs, there were a lot of risky passes he got away with.
30 combined INTs + Fumbles in 12 starts, and the number could've easily been more than 30. That's scary.
He showed me a lot of good stuff as a rookie, but I'm pretty damn scared about the turnovers. I think he could be a stud if he cleans that up, but that requires A LOT of cleaning up.
both have promising futures that will depend on surrounding teammates, coaches and health. It's way too soon to know what either will be in the NFL. In Eli's 4th season he threw 4 picks vs Vikings and he was being called a bust. 75 days later he was the Super Bowl MVP.
Darnold vs Jones is not my point. My point is about asset allocation, positional value and using the #2 pick draft on a RB. It was a disastrous decision and the Giants record since bears that out. After this year it will get even worse, they're going to pay a RB crazy money.
The Giants stink because their OL and DL are awful. They spent enormous draft capital on the OL this year hopefully that will help. They drafted Lawrence last year with the OBJ pick, traded for Williams last year, signed and drafted several LBs in free agency. Unfortunately none of them are pass rushing difference makers.
so what he says doesn't carry the weight with me but I think DJ will be around for awhile. wth do i know?
Jason Garrett was a career back up quarterback and dan orlovsky had a very pedestrian career in the nfl. These are two examples of players that while they weren't great quarterbacks, they are very good at their respective jobs. Doesn't mean they are always right, but their opinions and analysis is pretty good.
Chris Simms is not afraid to give his opinion or admit when he makes a mistake. Just because he didn't have much of a NFL career doesn't mean he should just be dismissed because of that fact. I listen to chris every once in awhile and at times he gives great insight into what he sees and thinks.
there were so many good things I saw in him as a rookie. He proved he had the arm talent to make bigtime throws, his mobility is clearly an asset, and you can't help but be impressed by his personality.
But I'm really worried about his turnovers. 18 fumbles is insanely high. And although he only had 12 INTs, it really felt like he was a hair away from another half dozen. I think he got lucky when it came to the INTs, there were a lot of risky passes he got away with.
30 combined INTs + Fumbles in 12 starts, and the number could've easily been more than 30. That's scary.
He showed me a lot of good stuff as a rookie, but I'm pretty damn scared about the turnovers. I think he could be a stud if he cleans that up, but that requires A LOT of cleaning up.
Agreed, if he doesn't clean it up he will be another Winston. But I am pretty confident he will. The interceptions don't worry me. He had 12 in 12 games. Eli had a TD/Int ratio of 6:9 his rookie year. Peyton had 28 Ints his rookie year.
The fumbles/pocket awareness are my only worry about him, but I fully expect improvement in that area.
Last year, he had the deck stacked against him. Going from Duke/ACC schedule to the NFL is a pretty big jump. He had WRs that were getting no separation - probably the lowest in the league. He had a horrible OL.
I am pretty confident the issues will improve (how much is TDB). First, he understands it's a problem, and the coaches do as well. There have been a number of reports that he has been working on the fumbling issues as priority number 1. I believe he called it a "simple fix." The reports about his work ethic have been nothing but glowing.
Additionally, the Giants have taken major steps in making major investments in improving their OL. I only expect incremental adjustments to the OL this year, as Thomas gets acclimated to the NFL and guys like Peart and Lemieux develop. However, I expect to see a large improvement by next year. I expect improved OL coaching as well.
The WR separation is a concern, but they will have Tate for a full year, Slayton will be in his second year, and hopefully they have better health from Shephard (and Engram). I hope they may have gotten something with at least 1 of the UDFA WR, and I expect them to get a WR in the first few rounds next year to help with that issue.
RE: RE: RE: Give me Darnold and the Jags Josh Allen
2018 Bradley Chubb & 2019 Drew Lock
or
2018 Josh Allen & 2019 Devin Bush
Are you saying you prefer Drew Lock over Daniel Jones? If so, that's a real head scratcher with the information we currently have at hand.
I sure as heck hope you are right, because there is a LOT of sentiment here in the Denver area that the Broncos may well have picked the best QB in the 2019 draft. He did win more games in 5 starts than Jones did in 12...so theres that. Didnt exactly beat a murderers row of teams, although you play who's in front of you, and he had a damn nice game vs the Texans. Broncos fans think they finally got "their guy" after years of searching post-Manning.
He makes an interesting point about Jones's fearlessness. We've seen the downside, but I'd rather have a QB who has the confidence to keep looking for plays, and train him up on his internal clock and ball security, than have a QB who doesn't turn it over as much, but can't get out of the "play it safe" mindset in the big moments.
there were so many good things I saw in him as a rookie. He proved he had the arm talent to make bigtime throws, his mobility is clearly an asset, and you can't help but be impressed by his personality.
But I'm really worried about his turnovers. 18 fumbles is insanely high. And although he only had 12 INTs, it really felt like he was a hair away from another half dozen. I think he got lucky when it came to the INTs, there were a lot of risky passes he got away with.
30 combined INTs + Fumbles in 12 starts, and the number could've easily been more than 30. That's scary.
He showed me a lot of good stuff as a rookie, but I'm pretty damn scared about the turnovers. I think he could be a stud if he cleans that up, but that requires A LOT of cleaning up.
I wish DJ8 had a good 50-50 receiver where those near INTs are catches.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Give me Darnold and the Jags Josh Allen
I sure as heck hope you are right, because there is a LOT of sentiment here in the Denver area that the Broncos may well have picked the best QB in the 2019 draft. He did win more games in 5 starts than Jones did in 12...so theres that. Didnt exactly beat a murderers row of teams, although you play who's in front of you, and he had a damn nice game vs the Texans. Broncos fans think they finally got "their guy" after years of searching post-Manning.
I've seen that sentiment too and I find it pretty bizarre. I watched the Houston game start to finish. He played really well but Houston was flat and didn't come to play. Not to mention, 190 of his 300 yards came after the catch. For context, that's more than Jones in any of his game where he threw for 300+ yards.
Besides that he eclipsed 200 yards only once in his other starts (and just barely in a 23-3 loss to KC) and 151 of his 201 yards were after the catch in that one.
Also, Denver has a really solid defense so counting wins is misleading when it comes to evaluating Jones vs Lock. Opponent point totals in his 4 wins were 20, 24, 17 and 15. Only 3 out of Jones' 12 starts did the Giants hold their opponent to under 24 points, Washington twice and Chicago.
The Lions are the only somewhat apples to apples comparison we have in terms of mutual opponents and Jones threw for 322 yards and 4 TD's while Lock threw for 191 yards and 1 td against them. The Giants lost and Denver didn't but it helps when you get a punt return TD and over 100 yards from your RB plus get to face David Blough instead of Stafford.
He might become a good QB, who knows but as of today I don't see any evidence that points one way or the other.
It was just one year, but for his rookie year, he showed more promise than Simms and Eli did in their rookie years. The potential and talent are there. Apparently, he's also a very hard worker and very intelligent. All the positives are there, now it's just about the coaching and cleaning up the fumbles. Given the attributes posted above, I think Jones can clean it up. If the coaching is as good as we're hoping, then the sky is the limit.
The other 5 are Russell Wilson, RG3, Dak Prescott, Minshew & Kyler Murray.
I think you have this worded wrong. Should be something like:
"...to give Dave G. and Pat S. a ton of credit for identifying the QB they liked and taking him where they needed to so no other team could grab him...."
How is that different than any other high draft pick (except for the college having no talent)?
Eli played for Ole Miss and didn't have a heck of a lot of talent around him. Not Duke, but still.
As for the pros, he was drafted at 6. Obviously the team did not have a lot of talent when they drafted him. But hard to see how you are already extrapolating that out another 15 years.
DJ has a legitimate chance to be a franchise QB. Jury is still out but he seems to have the tools and more importantly in NY, the mental makeup to be successful.
Quote:
and he is still learning. Hopefully by now we can all just agree to give DG and the Giants a pass on why they drafted him with the first pick last year. They obviously saw what everyone else is seeing now and just did not want to risk another team having him high on their list.. moving up to take him, etc
I think you have this worded wrong. Should be something like:
"...to give Dave G. and Pat S. a ton of credit for identifying the QB they liked and taking him where they needed to so no other team could grab him...."
That was my 1st thought...
…"a pass?!"
I think you have this worded wrong. Should be something like:
"...to give Dave G. and Pat S. a ton of credit for identifying the QB they liked and taking him where they needed to so no other team could grab him...."
One of the common themes here after the draft last year was that we could have waited to get him with our next pick. People were convinced that no other team wanted Jones in the 1st round.
Well... no fans truly know that. If you believe your next franchise QB is there when you are ready to pick, then you take him. It is the most important position on the team.
The analogy is passing a gas station with your fuel low light on THINKING ... but not sure you can make it to the next gas station that is about 50 miles away.
DJ has a legitimate chance to be a franchise QB. Jury is still out but he seems to have the tools and more importantly in NY, the mental makeup to be successful.
I agree. I think Jones has everything you could want in a franchise QB in NY. I believe he will be IF he can get the fumbling under control. Between his work ethic, and investment in the OL, I am hopeful on that.
Eli is my favorite Giant of all-time. I am more excited about Jones than I was about Eli at this point in their careers. I can only hope he approaches Eli's success.
So are our two worst guys lol
Quote:
In comment 14912896 EricJ said:
Quote:
and he is still learning. Hopefully by now we can all just agree to give DG and the Giants a pass on why they drafted him with the first pick last year. They obviously saw what everyone else is seeing now and just did not want to risk another team having him high on their list.. moving up to take him, etc
I think you have this worded wrong. Should be something like:
"...to give Dave G. and Pat S. a ton of credit for identifying the QB they liked and taking him where they needed to so no other team could grab him...."
That was my 1st thought...
…"a pass?!"
Agreed....interesting choice of words. We have no idea what the thoughts were in the room that day in terms of who had interest in DJ. DG saw who he wanted and went for it. He saw something in this young man and didnt want to risk it multiple picks later. Obviously it is too early to tell for sure, but it looks like it was a great decision. To say he can get "a pass" doesnt make sense.
But I'll take the pass rushing LB over the RB 100 times out of 100.
But I'll take the pass rushing LB over the RB 100 times out of 100.
Darnold? NFW
Quote:
but i wonder if he doesn't have more 'Archie' than 'Eli' in him. It could be the dreary weather, but if you look at his college and, albiet, extremely short NFL career, he seems to have the 'curse' of being surrounded by lesser talent, like I believe Archie was in New Orleans. I hope the Giants can turn that around because DJ has the heart to do everything he can to win and the ability to do it; but if he's constantly on the run or constantly getting hit that can change a career awfully quick.
How is that different than any other high draft pick (except for the college having no talent)?
Eli played for Ole Miss and didn't have a heck of a lot of talent around him. Not Duke, but still.
As for the pros, he was drafted at 6. Obviously the team did not have a lot of talent when they drafted him. But hard to see how you are already extrapolating that out another 15 years.
Good points. I think Eli had more talent on OL and a semblence of a defense. Archie was a LOT more mobile than Eli and survived for a while. I think in todays NFL, mobile QBs who rely MORE on their legs are exposed to a lot more career shortening/ending injuries. That was my Archie comparison. I think Eli, knowing himself and not being mobile, had a greater propensity to throw the ball away a lot quicker (and sometimes too quickly, but I wasn't the one staring a 900 ilb DL in the face;)). I am very early in my projection for DJ's NFL career, but can you blame me. When was the last time the Giants had a decent line? If you make DJ run, he's gonna run. He either holds the ball too long or runs. I feel like those are two really good ways to get injured.
Quote:
You can keep Jones and Barkley. I like Jones I thought he was very good for a rookie on a terrible team with a terrible coach. I don't think Darnold is better. I think they're equally qualified to be good starting NFL QBs with different styles and strengths.
But I'll take the pass rushing LB over the RB 100 times out of 100.
Darnold? NFW
Darnold is another guy the jury is still more out on than DJ.
…"a pass?!"
Right.. I am speaking to those who still to this day belive we drafted Jones too early. I am not one of those people.
But I'll take the pass rushing LB over the RB 100 times out of 100.
If we're doing this, I'd go:
2018 Bradley Chubb & 2019 Drew Lock
or
2018 Josh Allen & 2019 Devin Bush
But I'll take the pass rushing LB over the RB 100 times out of 100.
And the other point to consider....who would you rather have Dexter Lawrence or Josh Allen?
And the other point to consider....who would you rather have Dexter Lawrence or Josh Allen?
Josh Allen, easily. That’s no knock on Big Dex, but I would prefer Allen. However, although unhappy on draft night, I’m pleased with how it turned out. Don’t fuck with the QB position. Take him if you believe in him
In addition to this, it sounds like he needs to be able to beat zone coverage.
But that level of analysis is above my pay grade.
If we're doing this, I'd go:
2018 Bradley Chubb & 2019 Drew Lock
or
2018 Josh Allen & 2019 Devin Bush
Are you saying you prefer Drew Lock over Daniel Jones? If so, that's a real head scratcher with the information we currently have at hand.
Quote:
In comment 14912943 arniefez said:
Quote:
You can keep Jones and Barkley. I like Jones I thought he was very good for a rookie on a terrible team with a terrible coach. I don't think Darnold is better. I think they're equally qualified to be good starting NFL QBs with different styles and strengths.
But I'll take the pass rushing LB over the RB 100 times out of 100.
Darnold? NFW
Darnold is another guy the jury is still more out on than DJ.
Haley Joe Osmond?
Quote:
If he can fix the fumble issue, he’ll be a great one. It’s a kind of a big if though. I don’t think it’s the easy fix that’s being advertised on here or in some beat articles. It’s a lot more than grip strength.
In addition to this, it sounds like he needs to be able to beat zone coverage.
But that level of analysis is above my pay grade.
Personally I think this has more to do with Shurmur's playcalling than anything else. When defenses are in zone, it usually leaves short, quick/easy passes open. That's why most QB's are better against zone than man. The fact that he's been so much better against man is actually a big indicator of just how good his ball placement was and IMO is a good sign of his chances going forward.
With that said, there were times when the defense confused Jones IE where he thought they were in man but were really disguising zone coverage. Rookie QBs struggle to read defenses and coordinators try to fool them. The ones with staying power get better at that over time and process things faster. That's the year two jump I'm hoping we see.
"a pick that, at the time, garnered heavy criticism for general manager Dave Gettleman who, it was said, reached by picking Jones earlier than he should have." .....It was said by you Chris! Own up to it.
He had DJ ranked as the 6th! best QB that year.
Tier 1
Murray
Lock
Haskins
Tier 2
Stidham
Finley
Jones
Tier 3
Thorson
Grier
Link - ( New Window )
The other 5 are Russell Wilson, RG3, Dak Prescott, Minshew & Kyler Murray.
Yep! And this is just stats, not reality, but project his stats to a full season and it would have been the #1 rookie QB season ever, stats-wise. That's the level he played at for his 3/4 of a season.
"a pick that, at the time, garnered heavy criticism for general manager Dave Gettleman who, it was said, reached by picking Jones earlier than he should have." .....It was said by you Chris! Own up to it.
He had DJ ranked as the 6th! best QB that year.
Tier 1
Murray
Lock
Haskins
Tier 2
Stidham
Finley
Jones
Tier 3
Thorson
Grier Link - ( New Window )
He actually fessed up in an NBC YouTube he did... said he was wrong.
And the other point to consider....who would you rather have Dexter Lawrence or Josh Allen?
Phil Simms has said on numerous occasions that Jones would not have been there at 17. He said to just “trust him” when asked how he knew. Clearly he was told directly from teams that they would have taken Jones.
This is just a perfect example of why you should never rush to judgement when it comes to draft picks.
But I'm really worried about his turnovers. 18 fumbles is insanely high. And although he only had 12 INTs, it really felt like he was a hair away from another half dozen. I think he got lucky when it came to the INTs, there were a lot of risky passes he got away with.
30 combined INTs + Fumbles in 12 starts, and the number could've easily been more than 30. That's scary.
He showed me a lot of good stuff as a rookie, but I'm pretty damn scared about the turnovers. I think he could be a stud if he cleans that up, but that requires A LOT of cleaning up.
The other 5 are Russell Wilson, RG3, Dak Prescott, Minshew & Kyler Murray.
Not downplaying it, but if removed the 200 rushing yards, how many more make this list? If you know.
Darnold vs Jones is not my point. My point is about asset allocation, positional value and using the #2 pick draft on a RB. It was a disastrous decision and the Giants record since bears that out. After this year it will get even worse, they're going to pay a RB crazy money.
The Giants stink because their OL and DL are awful. They spent enormous draft capital on the OL this year hopefully that will help. They drafted Lawrence last year with the OBJ pick, traded for Williams last year, signed and drafted several LBs in free agency. Unfortunately none of them are pass rushing difference makers.
Jason Garrett was a career back up quarterback and dan orlovsky had a very pedestrian career in the nfl. These are two examples of players that while they weren't great quarterbacks, they are very good at their respective jobs. Doesn't mean they are always right, but their opinions and analysis is pretty good.
Chris Simms is not afraid to give his opinion or admit when he makes a mistake. Just because he didn't have much of a NFL career doesn't mean he should just be dismissed because of that fact. I listen to chris every once in awhile and at times he gives great insight into what he sees and thinks.
Darnold 36 TD 28 INT and a 81 rating in two years
Not close! Don’t give me fumbles when he was blindsided unless you give me a QB that is athletic and can run the ball.
But I'm really worried about his turnovers. 18 fumbles is insanely high. And although he only had 12 INTs, it really felt like he was a hair away from another half dozen. I think he got lucky when it came to the INTs, there were a lot of risky passes he got away with.
30 combined INTs + Fumbles in 12 starts, and the number could've easily been more than 30. That's scary.
He showed me a lot of good stuff as a rookie, but I'm pretty damn scared about the turnovers. I think he could be a stud if he cleans that up, but that requires A LOT of cleaning up.
Agreed, if he doesn't clean it up he will be another Winston. But I am pretty confident he will. The interceptions don't worry me. He had 12 in 12 games. Eli had a TD/Int ratio of 6:9 his rookie year. Peyton had 28 Ints his rookie year.
The fumbles/pocket awareness are my only worry about him, but I fully expect improvement in that area.
Last year, he had the deck stacked against him. Going from Duke/ACC schedule to the NFL is a pretty big jump. He had WRs that were getting no separation - probably the lowest in the league. He had a horrible OL.
I am pretty confident the issues will improve (how much is TDB). First, he understands it's a problem, and the coaches do as well. There have been a number of reports that he has been working on the fumbling issues as priority number 1. I believe he called it a "simple fix." The reports about his work ethic have been nothing but glowing.
Additionally, the Giants have taken major steps in making major investments in improving their OL. I only expect incremental adjustments to the OL this year, as Thomas gets acclimated to the NFL and guys like Peart and Lemieux develop. However, I expect to see a large improvement by next year. I expect improved OL coaching as well.
The WR separation is a concern, but they will have Tate for a full year, Slayton will be in his second year, and hopefully they have better health from Shephard (and Engram). I hope they may have gotten something with at least 1 of the UDFA WR, and I expect them to get a WR in the first few rounds next year to help with that issue.
Quote:
If we're doing this, I'd go:
2018 Bradley Chubb & 2019 Drew Lock
or
2018 Josh Allen & 2019 Devin Bush
Are you saying you prefer Drew Lock over Daniel Jones? If so, that's a real head scratcher with the information we currently have at hand.
I sure as heck hope you are right, because there is a LOT of sentiment here in the Denver area that the Broncos may well have picked the best QB in the 2019 draft. He did win more games in 5 starts than Jones did in 12...so theres that. Didnt exactly beat a murderers row of teams, although you play who's in front of you, and he had a damn nice game vs the Texans. Broncos fans think they finally got "their guy" after years of searching post-Manning.
But I'm really worried about his turnovers. 18 fumbles is insanely high. And although he only had 12 INTs, it really felt like he was a hair away from another half dozen. I think he got lucky when it came to the INTs, there were a lot of risky passes he got away with.
30 combined INTs + Fumbles in 12 starts, and the number could've easily been more than 30. That's scary.
He showed me a lot of good stuff as a rookie, but I'm pretty damn scared about the turnovers. I think he could be a stud if he cleans that up, but that requires A LOT of cleaning up.
I wish DJ8 had a good 50-50 receiver where those near INTs are catches.
I sure as heck hope you are right, because there is a LOT of sentiment here in the Denver area that the Broncos may well have picked the best QB in the 2019 draft. He did win more games in 5 starts than Jones did in 12...so theres that. Didnt exactly beat a murderers row of teams, although you play who's in front of you, and he had a damn nice game vs the Texans. Broncos fans think they finally got "their guy" after years of searching post-Manning.
I've seen that sentiment too and I find it pretty bizarre. I watched the Houston game start to finish. He played really well but Houston was flat and didn't come to play. Not to mention, 190 of his 300 yards came after the catch. For context, that's more than Jones in any of his game where he threw for 300+ yards.
Besides that he eclipsed 200 yards only once in his other starts (and just barely in a 23-3 loss to KC) and 151 of his 201 yards were after the catch in that one.
Also, Denver has a really solid defense so counting wins is misleading when it comes to evaluating Jones vs Lock. Opponent point totals in his 4 wins were 20, 24, 17 and 15. Only 3 out of Jones' 12 starts did the Giants hold their opponent to under 24 points, Washington twice and Chicago.
The Lions are the only somewhat apples to apples comparison we have in terms of mutual opponents and Jones threw for 322 yards and 4 TD's while Lock threw for 191 yards and 1 td against them. The Giants lost and Denver didn't but it helps when you get a punt return TD and over 100 yards from your RB plus get to face David Blough instead of Stafford.
He might become a good QB, who knows but as of today I don't see any evidence that points one way or the other.