I can’t get enough of watching this kid. Both Lemieux and UDFA Kyle Murphy play to and often past the whistle. Both these kids bring a much needed attitude to the offensive line.
this seems to be one of your favorite picks, if not your favorite, pick of this draft. You that high on him so far?
He was one of the top guards in this class and to get him in the 5th round is a pretty big deal.
I think he's the kind of interior lineman that lasts 8-10 years in the League. He's so big and strong that he got away with his natural brute strength in college. He'll have to become more of technician to make it in the NFL. But based I what I've seen/read, he has the work ethic.
this seems to be one of your favorite picks, if not your favorite, pick of this draft. You that high on him so far?
You can also see my thoughts on him in my draft review and my recent OL preview.
I've been able to read some of that so far but not as much as I'd like with everything going on. You think they'll try to convert him to C (I've seen several discussions on that) or you think he's projected as the eventual replacement for Zeitler?
I know football isn't the most important thing in the world right now, but having Giants training camp start would sure be a welcome development! Looking forward to seeing the rookies and the new coaching staff in action.
How wonderful would it be to have a real mauler once again
I am so tired of seeing Halapio and Pulley pushed back into the pocket. Lemieux is very strong so that won’t be a problem with him. IMO it will come down to his ability to make the proper line calls.
Lemieux’s reviews sound very similar to Hernandez when he was drafted.
I get the feeling that people who are expecting him to be a plug-and-play above-average starting center for the next 10 years are going to somehow end up at least just a bit disappointed (just from a probabilistic standpoint).
RE: Lemieux’s reviews sound very similar to Hernandez when he was drafted.
So far, Hernandez’s progress pretty much follows those reviews. Same advantages and same limitations.
Similar perhaps in language used to describe certain areas of their game? But Hernandez was the #34 overall pick and DG even said they had a mid-1st round grade on him (as did a number of teams/experts). Let's not lose sight of the fact Lemieux is a 5th round pick. Saying the reviews are "very similar" makes it sound like they were similarly graded prospects, which is not the case at all.
I mean we can certainly hope for the best, but there's no reason we should have the same expectations for Lemieux as we had for Hernandez if we're truly being honest with ourselves. Some players are just better coming out of college than others, it's the reason why we have a 7-round draft in the first place.
Are his limitations at center worse than what we have seen for the past few years. It's not like we have a good option, so if he is close to the others, I would rather have someone like him, capable of creating space in the middle of the field. I hope someone blows us away in training camp but at this point I don't see it happening.
I clicked on each video, so all the ads played at the same time. Basically go down the list of videos and by the time you get back to the top, go down the list again and hit pause, then go back and play each one when ready.
I know people say the ads on BBI suck, but when I go to many other sites, there is no comparison. Some of the newspaper sites are nuts with all of the pop ups.
he feels he will be a steal of the draft and he is a guy the fanbase will fall in love with.
Always shows up, works hard, and has a mean streak.
Ultimate team player.
When I have looked at Lemieux's video clips, I am often
surprised how often he's pulling or trapping. From the write ups on him, you'd think he'd be weaker in space than line up toe to toe with his opponents. But Oregon had him moving in space quite a bit.
I found that encouraging. He might not be the athlete Hernandez is, but he's at least capable of performing many of the same schemes.
He will be a plus pick if he's merely a capable back up swing OG in years 2 and 3.
But the FA Kyle Murphy's highlight film make him look like the . . .
I hope he makes the team in some capacity.
"He" referring to Lemieux or Murphy?
If Murphy, it wouldn't be a great sign if he makes the team on the 55 man roster, since that would make 4 rookie OL among the likely 9 OL on the roster.
4/9 rookie OL, or even worse 4/8, is a recipe for disaster for the Giants' offense in 2020.
If all 3 drafted OL make the roster, that's an odds beating proposition right off the bat.
Regardless of how many OL rookies make the final roster
3-Cone and Short Shuttle numbers: his RAS numbers per Schmelk's link are ~ bottom quartile: "Poor". These two drills would, to me, be indications of natural AA for the types of movement tested, quick twitch and quick reaction/change of direction.
And they are likely why Lemiuex dropped to the 5th. Maybe JJ and the scouts see beyond those numbers, that (lack of) aptitude, but it doesn't seem to me that these are coachable metrics that can be increased to a passing grade. Of course, he has other qualities as an OG that made him a Giants' pick, but the deficits in those two drills are very likely the reasons the scout, in a thread last 10 days or so, said he lacks the 'quickness' to play C. I'm hopeful, but there are real reasons for caution and reserving judgment.
Willie: look at the RAS scores for those two drills and it will be clear to you.
X: I hope that is not a serious question. Zone blocking scheme aside, maybe, a C has to be able to adjust to stunts, something Halapio was terrible at, by shuttling quickly to take on the different spot the stunting D-rusher is coming from as well as the different angle of attach he presents. Secondly, if the play called, run or pass, calls for the C NOT to take on the NT or DT directly across from him, the C has to 'shuttle' to square up and block the other DT or a LB.
This is a scout, worthy of being quoted in the 'executive and scout from a team in the NFC' making the point generally about Lemieux' fitness to play C. His 'Poor' performance in these two drills tends to support that scout's claim of lack of quickness.
Your point is that these are irrelevant metrics, for interior OL generally. I could argue something about blinders, but that would not be kind.
Keep in mind, this unit was in disastrous shape going into this last draft anyway you look at it - lack of talent, youth, developing prospects, not to mention open positions at several starting spots.
Nobody wants to throw a bunch of rookie OL to the wolves so hopefully the coaches can reorganize this unit smartly over the next two seasons.
Unfortunately, rookies are what you are going to get when you only draft 3 offensive lineman in the last 4 drafts, of which two were 6th & 7th round flyers that aren't even on the team anymore.
Just disagree on agility: between sliding, shuttling across, changing direction on a dime if the stunt is different than originally perceived or reacting to change in direction/angle of attack of the d-rusher (not only, but especially, LBs, typically smaller and quicker than DL), my own lay opinion (and that's all it is) is that the shuttle and 3-cone are important measureables for interior OL, aside from they being measures of athletic agility generally.
Not to belabor a small point but bottom quartile would be 2.5 or below
My understanding is that the scout's reservations about him is that he is slow off the snap. It is possible a move to center may improve that. I haven't heard any talk about weakness in picking up stunts and his pass pre stats belie that as a serious concern.
RE: I haven't been this excited about a lower drafted player since
that the 3 cone and short shuttle tests, that together are supposed to be a measure of "agility" that is an important measure of potential at various OL positions, looking over several Giants' OL picks over the last 15+ years, it's really hard to see the correlation.
5th rounder David Diehl was pretty awful at those agility tests, whereas Adam Koets, James Brewer, and Justin Pugh performed much better at those tests.
How'd they all work out in the end for the Giants?
There's a website, nflcombineresults.com, that assigns grades by number and letters to NFL prospects solely based on their combine test results.
Sometimes their grades correlate; for example multi time pro bowler Trent Williams graded a B.
But David Diehl earned an F, Andrew Thomas a D, whereas Peart, Adam Koets and James Brewer all earned C grades... Will Hernandez earned a B grade, and I think it shows with him but many on BBI don't like Hernandez's 2019 level of play.
How'd they all work out?
The underwear tests only mean so much, and Reese who seemed to love those measureables was awful at drafting OL. Getty seems to be a bit better at it.
Let's cross our fingers Lemieux turns out like Diehl did, whether or not he can play OC.
There's a mental side to OL play that isn't at all present
James Brewer was simply miserable at the mental side of OL play.
I don't want to recall the number of times he pulled on a play and got "lost" deciding who to hit, and in the end didn't block anybody!
Lemieux at least seems to have a pretty clear idea about who he's supposed to hit on a given play on his tape from the Ducks, and once when he appeared to strike out on what looked like his assigned target (to me) at least he continued and laid a good lick on somebody among the opposition defense.
Watching Brewer hit no one, I wanted to reach inside my TV and slap his dumb ass time and time again.
Bad memories there, and hopefully Lemieux's an entirely different story going forward.
Your mention of Brewer brings an indelible memory to mind: I can't remember who the injured starter was (John Jerry, Pugh, or someone else), the Giants were backed up in the shadow of their own goal posts, and the camera zeroed in, really zeroed in, on Brewer's face behind the face mask. It was so obvious he DID NOT want to be out there, all but pissing in his pads, unhappy would be an understatement. I clapped my forehead, and said, brilliant, Jerry Reese.
And the mention of JR to your point: I concur 100% that the underwear Olympics is, on its own, a failed metric of who will turn out to be a good football player, and by the metrics of attitude, I am 100% supportive of the notion that Lemieux will be a football player and not a namby pamby.
The players you mention, Diehl vs Koets, Pugh, and Brewer is, on its face, suggestive, but also a poor sample, because two of the three were demonstrably poor football players (I never had my heart into Pugh because by dint of JR drafting suckyness, Pugh was the 7th of 7 OL selected in that draft, but then, as now, we were left in a tight spot). So, I'll go so far as to suggest that there are a lot of interior OL with good metrics in the 3-Cone and Sh Shuttle who ware good football players.
Make no mistake: I like the pick, I like the fact that we went 3 OL with our first 5 picks. My point is, simply, that on the metrics that stress agility vs power, burst, and straight line speed, he is down around (I used "~" in my original post, Willie, in case you missed it) the lower quartile, and it's something to keep in mind as his positional experiment plays out. I hope it turns out to be a non-issue, but it was enough for a scout to mention to Giants' beats--and he did fall to the 5th. Such falls happens all the time, sometimes it means we got a steal, sometimes it means there was good reason.
All best to you!!
Who wouldn't? He's a fifth round pick with poor agility #s via the combine drills.
Giants have had a long spell of failure drafting mid and late round OL.
But as far as your notion of the importance of those drills for interior OL, I'll offer this nugget. (And honestly I didn't screen 10 top OGs to find these results. These were the first two top OG who came to mind!)
Quenton Nelson and Alan Faneca were both bottom of the barrel performers on the combine 3 cone and short shuttle drills. They both received "F" grades from the nflcombineresults.com algorithm.
Not sayin' or even suggesting Shane Lemieux is another Nelson or Faneca.
But I'd be more than thrilled if Getty got us another David Diehl for a decade.
Don't fret those agility drills till we see if Lemieux can play, or not.
took a bit of doing. Here are his Short Shuttle and 3-Cone numbers:
Drill Result RAS
Short Shuttle 4.62 8.34
3-Cone 7.65 8.24
Agility Grade: "Great"
vs. Lemieux':
Short Shuttle 4.9 3.33
3-Cone 8.13 2.98
Agility Grade: "Poor"
Whether you take it as valid or not, their RAS results were very different, and this is reflected in where the two players were drafted, not a direct correlation perhaps, but pieces of the puzzle.
took a bit of doing. Here are his Short Shuttle and 3-Cone numbers:
Drill Result RAS
Short Shuttle 4.62 8.34
3-Cone 7.65 8.24
Agility Grade: "Great"
vs. Lemieux':
Short Shuttle 4.9 3.33
3-Cone 8.13 2.98
Agility Grade: "Poor"
Whether you take it as valid or not, their RAS results were very different, and this is reflected in where the two players were drafted, not a direct correlation perhaps, but pieces of the puzzle.
I stand corrected about Nelson his agility #s were more like Andrew Thomas than Lemieux...
Not sure how he graded a "F" vie the website algorithm I saw...
He was one of the top guards in this class and to get him in the 5th round is a pretty big deal.
I think he's the kind of interior lineman that lasts 8-10 years in the League. He's so big and strong that he got away with his natural brute strength in college. He'll have to become more of technician to make it in the NFL. But based I what I've seen/read, he has the work ethic.
You can also see my thoughts on him in my draft review and my recent OL preview.
Quote:
this seems to be one of your favorite picks, if not your favorite, pick of this draft. You that high on him so far?
You can also see my thoughts on him in my draft review and my recent OL preview.
I've been able to read some of that so far but not as much as I'd like with everything going on. You think they'll try to convert him to C (I've seen several discussions on that) or you think he's projected as the eventual replacement for Zeitler?
Can he handle center? Some think he can't; others think he can. Remains to be seen.
Can he handle center? Some think he can't; others think he can. Remains to be seen.
Ah, apparently I've been too out of the loop with some things lately...need to read more.
Similar perhaps in language used to describe certain areas of their game? But Hernandez was the #34 overall pick and DG even said they had a mid-1st round grade on him (as did a number of teams/experts). Let's not lose sight of the fact Lemieux is a 5th round pick. Saying the reviews are "very similar" makes it sound like they were similarly graded prospects, which is not the case at all.
I mean we can certainly hope for the best, but there's no reason we should have the same expectations for Lemieux as we had for Hernandez if we're truly being honest with ourselves. Some players are just better coming out of college than others, it's the reason why we have a 7-round draft in the first place.
I know people say the ads on BBI suck, but when I go to many other sites, there is no comparison. Some of the newspaper sites are nuts with all of the pop ups.
Always shows up, works hard, and has a mean streak.
Ultimate team player.
I found that encouraging. He might not be the athlete Hernandez is, but he's at least capable of performing many of the same schemes.
He will be a plus pick if he's merely a capable back up swing OG in years 2 and 3.
i don't mind the BBI ads at all Eric. they aren't nearly as bad as other sites
I hope he makes the team in some capacity.
I hope he makes the team in some capacity.
"He" referring to Lemieux or Murphy?
If Murphy, it wouldn't be a great sign if he makes the team on the 55 man roster, since that would make 4 rookie OL among the likely 9 OL on the roster.
4/9 rookie OL, or even worse 4/8, is a recipe for disaster for the Giants' offense in 2020.
If all 3 drafted OL make the roster, that's an odds beating proposition right off the bat.
Only one rookie is in position to start.....
Another might be competing for the starting center position....but if he wins it....it is merit based.
The 3rd rookie....is eventually pencil in as a future starter....
Murphy most likely is practice squad but again....if he makes it on roster its merit based.
The back end of the OL will not be a disaster this year
The most important thing for that unit was to get some young promising talent that can be developed and allow DJ & Saquon to do the same.
I love the value pick in the 5th round
And they are likely why Lemiuex dropped to the 5th. Maybe JJ and the scouts see beyond those numbers, that (lack of) aptitude, but it doesn't seem to me that these are coachable metrics that can be increased to a passing grade. Of course, he has other qualities as an OG that made him a Giants' pick, but the deficits in those two drills are very likely the reasons the scout, in a thread last 10 days or so, said he lacks the 'quickness' to play C. I'm hopeful, but there are real reasons for caution and reserving judgment.
X: I hope that is not a serious question. Zone blocking scheme aside, maybe, a C has to be able to adjust to stunts, something Halapio was terrible at, by shuttling quickly to take on the different spot the stunting D-rusher is coming from as well as the different angle of attach he presents. Secondly, if the play called, run or pass, calls for the C NOT to take on the NT or DT directly across from him, the C has to 'shuttle' to square up and block the other DT or a LB.
This is a scout, worthy of being quoted in the 'executive and scout from a team in the NFC' making the point generally about Lemieux' fitness to play C. His 'Poor' performance in these two drills tends to support that scout's claim of lack of quickness.
Your point is that these are irrelevant metrics, for interior OL generally. I could argue something about blinders, but that would not be kind.
Keep in mind, this unit was in disastrous shape going into this last draft anyway you look at it - lack of talent, youth, developing prospects, not to mention open positions at several starting spots.
Nobody wants to throw a bunch of rookie OL to the wolves so hopefully the coaches can reorganize this unit smartly over the next two seasons.
Unfortunately, rookies are what you are going to get when you only draft 3 offensive lineman in the last 4 drafts, of which two were 6th & 7th round flyers that aren't even on the team anymore.
I was souped about Connelly. Actually looked like a competent LB out there for a few games.
I love the value pick in the 5th round
+1
5th rounder David Diehl was pretty awful at those agility tests, whereas Adam Koets, James Brewer, and Justin Pugh performed much better at those tests.
How'd they all work out in the end for the Giants?
There's a website, nflcombineresults.com, that assigns grades by number and letters to NFL prospects solely based on their combine test results.
Sometimes their grades correlate; for example multi time pro bowler Trent Williams graded a B.
But David Diehl earned an F, Andrew Thomas a D, whereas Peart, Adam Koets and James Brewer all earned C grades... Will Hernandez earned a B grade, and I think it shows with him but many on BBI don't like Hernandez's 2019 level of play.
How'd they all work out?
The underwear tests only mean so much, and Reese who seemed to love those measureables was awful at drafting OL. Getty seems to be a bit better at it.
Let's cross our fingers Lemieux turns out like Diehl did, whether or not he can play OC.
James Brewer was simply miserable at the mental side of OL play.
I don't want to recall the number of times he pulled on a play and got "lost" deciding who to hit, and in the end didn't block anybody!
Lemieux at least seems to have a pretty clear idea about who he's supposed to hit on a given play on his tape from the Ducks, and once when he appeared to strike out on what looked like his assigned target (to me) at least he continued and laid a good lick on somebody among the opposition defense.
Watching Brewer hit no one, I wanted to reach inside my TV and slap his dumb ass time and time again.
Bad memories there, and hopefully Lemieux's an entirely different story going forward.
And the mention of JR to your point: I concur 100% that the underwear Olympics is, on its own, a failed metric of who will turn out to be a good football player, and by the metrics of attitude, I am 100% supportive of the notion that Lemieux will be a football player and not a namby pamby.
The players you mention, Diehl vs Koets, Pugh, and Brewer is, on its face, suggestive, but also a poor sample, because two of the three were demonstrably poor football players (I never had my heart into Pugh because by dint of JR drafting suckyness, Pugh was the 7th of 7 OL selected in that draft, but then, as now, we were left in a tight spot). So, I'll go so far as to suggest that there are a lot of interior OL with good metrics in the 3-Cone and Sh Shuttle who ware good football players.
Make no mistake: I like the pick, I like the fact that we went 3 OL with our first 5 picks. My point is, simply, that on the metrics that stress agility vs power, burst, and straight line speed, he is down around (I used "~" in my original post, Willie, in case you missed it) the lower quartile, and it's something to keep in mind as his positional experiment plays out. I hope it turns out to be a non-issue, but it was enough for a scout to mention to Giants' beats--and he did fall to the 5th. Such falls happens all the time, sometimes it means we got a steal, sometimes it means there was good reason.
All best to you!!
Giants have had a long spell of failure drafting mid and late round OL.
But as far as your notion of the importance of those drills for interior OL, I'll offer this nugget. (And honestly I didn't screen 10 top OGs to find these results. These were the first two top OG who came to mind!)
Quenton Nelson and Alan Faneca were both bottom of the barrel performers on the combine 3 cone and short shuttle drills. They both received "F" grades from the nflcombineresults.com algorithm.
Not sayin' or even suggesting Shane Lemieux is another Nelson or Faneca.
But I'd be more than thrilled if Getty got us another David Diehl for a decade.
Don't fret those agility drills till we see if Lemieux can play, or not.
Drill Result RAS
Short Shuttle 4.62 8.34
3-Cone 7.65 8.24
Agility Grade: "Great"
vs. Lemieux':
Short Shuttle 4.9 3.33
3-Cone 8.13 2.98
Agility Grade: "Poor"
Whether you take it as valid or not, their RAS results were very different, and this is reflected in where the two players were drafted, not a direct correlation perhaps, but pieces of the puzzle.
Drill Result RAS
Short Shuttle 4.62 8.34
3-Cone 7.65 8.24
Agility Grade: "Great"
vs. Lemieux':
Short Shuttle 4.9 3.33
3-Cone 8.13 2.98
Agility Grade: "Poor"
Whether you take it as valid or not, their RAS results were very different, and this is reflected in where the two players were drafted, not a direct correlation perhaps, but pieces of the puzzle.
I stand corrected about Nelson his agility #s were more like Andrew Thomas than Lemieux...
Not sure how he graded a "F" vie the website algorithm I saw...