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NFT: Berlin Wall Question

Joey from GlenCove : 5/31/2020 9:17 am
Born in 87 so missed the cold war etc.

I understand the Berlin wall encircled West Berlin and there were X attempts to cross from east to west Berlin. I assume 'the crossers' would stay in West Berlin or travel to whatever western country.


What prevented an East Berliner to just leave East Berlin go down towards the 'inner German border' and cross it.

Was the inner German border that well fortified? Seems like would have been easier to cross there than at the wall.
Joey  
Elisha10 : 5/31/2020 9:25 am : link
Look at a map, Berlin was deep inside East German territory. It was an island or outblast of West Germany inside East Germany. An East German would have to sneak into West Berlin and then try to travel to the West.
The East German police  
section125 : 5/31/2020 9:31 am : link
did not allow East German people to cross into the Western zone, freely. They actually shot people trying to escape. Even people with relatives on the Western controlled zones were not allowed to leave.
RE: Joey  
Joey from GlenCove : 5/31/2020 9:37 am : link
In comment 14913741 Elisha10 said:
Quote:
Look at a map, Berlin was deep inside East German territory. It was an island or outblast of West Germany inside East Germany. An East German would have to sneak into West Berlin and then try to travel to the West.


I get that im asking why would one attempt to cross the wall instead of crossing at the inner german border to west germany
Some of the most hear-wrenching moments  
Hammer : 5/31/2020 9:37 am : link
when the wall came down occurred when family members were reunited who had not seen each other in 30 years.
RE: RE: Joey  
Giantsfan79 : 5/31/2020 10:00 am : link
In comment 14913745 Joey from GlenCove said:
Quote:
In comment 14913741 Elisha10 said:


Quote:


Look at a map, Berlin was deep inside East German territory. It was an island or outblast of West Germany inside East Germany. An East German would have to sneak into West Berlin and then try to travel to the West.



I get that im asking why would one attempt to cross the wall instead of crossing at the inner german border to west germany


because if you tried the cross the inner border and didn't have the right papers you were shot on the spot. It made trying to cross at remote locations more appealing.
Far more people crossed from the East /West border  
George from PA : 5/31/2020 10:01 am : link
It is my understanding that people could not move freely throughout East Germany....so for those that lived near Berlin....it would be easier to jump wall....

All the crossing were still dangerous.
RE: RE: Joey  
bluepepper : 5/31/2020 10:05 am : link
In comment 14913745 Joey from GlenCove said:
Quote:
In comment 14913741 Elisha10 said:


Quote:


Look at a map, Berlin was deep inside East German territory. It was an island or outblast of West Germany inside East Germany. An East German would have to sneak into West Berlin and then try to travel to the West.



I get that im asking why would one attempt to cross the wall instead of crossing at the inner german border to west germany

I'm guessing if you were in East Berlin the wall was very tempting. You could get very near it without arousing much suspicion and then make a quick dash. Thousands succeeded.
Inner German border  
US1 Giants : 5/31/2020 10:06 am : link
Quote:
The inner German border (German: innerdeutsche Grenze or deutsch-deutsche Grenze; initially also Zonengrenze) was the border between the German Democratic Republic (GDR, East Germany) and the Federal Republic of Germany (FRG, West Germany) from 1949 to 1990. Not including the similar but physically separate Berlin Wall, the border was 1,393 kilometres (866 mi) long and ran from the Baltic Sea to Czechoslovakia.

It was formally established on 1 July 1945 as the boundary between the Western and Soviet occupation zones of former Nazi Germany. On the eastern side, it was made one of the world's most heavily fortified frontiers, defined by a continuous line of high metal fences and walls, barbed wire, alarms, anti-vehicle ditches, watchtowers, automatic booby traps and minefields. It was patrolled by 50,000 armed GDR guards who faced tens of thousands of West German, British and US guards and soldiers.[1] In the hinterlands behind the border were more than a million North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO) and Warsaw Pact troops.


Link - ( New Window )
I asked my German wife (who lived in West Berlin)  
ray in arlington : 5/31/2020 10:21 am : link
She said that at the border between East and West Germany there was room to create elaborate systems to prevent border crossing. This included clearing areas of vegetation, installing multiple walls, etc. Within Berlin there was not enough room to create very elaborate layers of barriers.

Also East Germans were not ordinarily allowed within 10 miles of the border (unless they lived in one of the villages close to the border). This in effect created a secondary border. (My wife had relatives in such a border village - neither she or her East German relatives could visit that village).

There was the possibility of escaping from the Baltic Sea.
Some folks tried to swim from East to West. There were strong limitations on private boats, and fishing boats were under observation (or manned with agents). My wife said there is a cemetery for people who were found in the water.
RE: I asked my German wife (who lived in West Berlin)  
Joey from GlenCove : 5/31/2020 10:27 am : link
In comment 14913763 ray in arlington said:
Quote:
She said that at the border between East and West Germany there was room to create elaborate systems to prevent border crossing. This included clearing areas of vegetation, installing multiple walls, etc. Within Berlin there was not enough room to create very elaborate layers of barriers.

Also East Germans were not ordinarily allowed within 10 miles of the border (unless they lived in one of the villages close to the border). This in effect created a secondary border. (My wife had relatives in such a border village - neither she or her East German relatives could visit that village).

There was the possibility of escaping from the Baltic Sea.
Some folks tried to swim from East to West. There were strong limitations on private boats, and fishing boats were under observation (or manned with agents). My wife said there is a cemetery for people who were found in the water.


That's very interesting, thanks for sharing.
Thanks, Ray.  
yatqb : 5/31/2020 10:37 am : link
Very interesting.
You're welcome  
ray in arlington : 5/31/2020 10:46 am : link
My wife can go on and on about this topic...I just gave you some highlights.

Now she's talking about how you could escape by going to a funeral to a close relative in the West and not returning.
Also fake marriages could be used to effect an escape.

By the way she says males over 65 and females over 60 were free to leave the East.


She wanted to smuggle equipment to her rock musician cousin in East Germany. You couldn't bring in an amplifier, but she got around it by just bringing in parts on multiple trips.
Also she would by something like a cello bow which couldn't be taken out of the East but got a fake receipt showing it was worth less than $100 so she could take it.

ray - do you recommend any books  
Joey from GlenCove : 5/31/2020 10:49 am : link
or docs on the topic specifically about the people/wall?
RE: ray - do you recommend any books  
ray in arlington : 5/31/2020 11:00 am : link
In comment 14913780 Joey from GlenCove said:
Quote:
or docs on the topic specifically about the people/wall?


No, sorry. This all is coming from my wife. She's still telling stories but I'm ready to move on to something else.
It was a different situation in 1945, or 1949, or 1961 (the Berlin wall), or 1970 or the mid-80's.




I used to work for the Department of State....  
Reb8thVA : 5/31/2020 11:41 am : link
One of my old bosses was a diplomat stationed in West Berlin. When the GDR first began constructing the Wall on 13 August 1961, she and her husband were responsible for reporting back to Washington what was going on. At first no one exactly knew what was happening, consulate received news about construction, possibly some kind of wall, but no one knew exactly how extensive it would end up being. She would tell stories about racing to different parts of the city to report, being threatened by the East German VOPOS, and others.

She was also stationed at our embassy in Moscow in the late 1940s. She was the junior officer who typed George Kennan’s famous long telegram that outlined our Cold War policy toward the USSR
RE: ray - do you recommend any books  
Reb8thVA : 5/31/2020 11:44 am : link
In comment 14913780 Joey from GlenCove said:
Quote:
or docs on the topic specifically about the people/wall?


The Berlin Wall: A World Divided 1961-1989 by Fredrick Taylor
RE: ray - do you recommend any books  
Reb8thVA : 5/31/2020 11:44 am : link
In comment 14913780 Joey from GlenCove said:
Quote:
or docs on the topic specifically about the people/wall?


The Berlin Wall: A World Divided 1961-1989 by Fredrick Taylor
One of my former colleagues  
Reb8thVA : 5/31/2020 11:47 am : link
Was the CIA station chief in West Berlin. He had great stories to tell.

He wrote a book about his experiences


Berlin - ( New Window )
Berlin is a fascinating city  
Jay in Toronto : 5/31/2020 12:38 pm : link
to visit. I was there 2 weeks and it wasn't enough.

Two lesser known museums:

Topography of Terror -- exhaustive and riveting narrative of how the 'elected' National Socialists systematically undermined democratic institutions from within.

Alliierten Museum/Allied Museum Mainly in a hollowed out movie theatre -- fabulous history of the Allied Occupation with a focus on the airlift. A bit out of the way -- but well worth a visit.


awesome ty  
Joey from GlenCove : 5/31/2020 12:55 pm : link
-
Try This  
Percy : 5/31/2020 6:29 pm : link
LeCarre's The Spy Who Came In From The Cold.
Le Carre's book is great  
Eliyah : 5/31/2020 10:19 pm : link
but there are quite a few others I'd recommend...fiction and non-fiction

The Berlin Wall by Frederick Taylor is fantastic and paints the picture of the political and cultural environment that lead to the wall being constructed.

The Innocent by Ian McEwan is fiction but based on the actual CIA-MI6 joint efforts spying on East Germany and the USSR. Real page turner but historically accurate at the broad brushstroke level.

The Wall Jumper by Peter Schneider is fiction but tells stories based on actual individuals their context and their effort to get to freedom in the West.

The File by Timothy Garton Ash. He's a British journalist who lived and worked in Germany and eventual saw the Stasi file that tracked his whereabouts and actions as he interviewed Germans in both the East and West at the time of the Wall.

They Divided the Sky by Christa Wolf. Really interesting and moving novel about an East German romance that gets complicated by bi-furcating political philosophies and the building of the Wall.





My wife is first generation American and we’ve been visiting family in  
Spider56 : 6/1/2020 2:18 pm : link
Germany since the early 80s. On 1 of our first trips to her home village just south of Hannover, I decided we should try to see the border area. After leaving the autobahn and driving a 2 lane back country road for a 1/2 hour or so, I was getting freaked that we had somehow crossed without knowing it ... then we came to a wide clearing right out of the Great Escape movie ... multiple high fences topped with barb wire separated by no mans lands with guard towers every couple hundred yards or so ... it went on in both directions as far as one could see, most likely the length of the entire border ... There was no conceivable way to get across alive. I later learned some of my wife’s relatives made it out of the East thru Berlin, right after the war before the wall and borders were built. This was a very moving experience that has stayed with me.
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