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Left tackle 2020

blue1986 : 6/4/2020 8:05 pm
I believe we need to move Solder to right tackle for 2020 and let Thomas play left. Even as a rookie he is better than Solder who was terrible last year and will get Jones killed this year. He is not quick enough with his feet to handle the premier pass rushers. He was overrated because he protected Brady who got rid of the bell fast enough to not need as much protection. Who agrees Thomas at left tackle
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RE: RE: Even as a rookie he is better than Solder  
Gman11 : 6/5/2020 2:13 pm : link
In comment 14915781 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
In comment 14915721 Gman11 said:


Quote:


Based on what? Like high draft choices have never been duds in the pros? As Parcells used to say, let's not put him in Canton just yet.



Based on 3 years starting in the SEC, beginning as a yruefreshman All American selection,


Eh. There have been Heisman Trophy winners that stunk in the pros. Can we at least see him in a preseason game before anointing him as an All-Pro?
Thomas  
Dragon : 6/5/2020 3:27 pm : link
Was the number four player taken first tackle you compare him to Barkley number two 1set RB taken and DJ number six player 2nd QB. These guys all started as rookies no redshirt year it would be a step backwards for Thomas not to start at LT the position he was drafted to play. In addition you drafted him knowing you needed to improve the starter at that position now sooner than later. I think like all the draft guys he was a surprise pick not a position surprise but he came with the LT top skills that’s what you drafted him for use him.
I read that 5 times...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/5/2020 3:38 pm : link
and all 5 times, I just kept thinking that dorgan gets increasingly pissed there's a similar handle to his here.
RE: RE: RE: Even as a rookie he is better than Solder  
BlueLou'sBack : 6/5/2020 3:45 pm : link
In comment 14915855 Gman11 said:
Quote:
In comment 14915781 BlueLou'sBack said:


Quote:


In comment 14915721 Gman11 said:


Quote:


Based on what? Like high draft choices have never been duds in the pros? As Parcells used to say, let's not put him in Canton just yet.



Based on 3 years starting in the SEC, beginning as a yruefreshman All American selection,



Eh. There have been Heisman Trophy winners that stunk in the pros. Can we at least see him in a preseason game before anointing him as an All-Pro?


Well continue with your straw man argument all you like, reason won't dissuade you apparently. Did I say he's going to be an all pro, fool? I noted I expect him to simply be better than Solder has been the past two years, which was pretty fffin poor, and gave the reasons WHY I expect that.

If you care to respond to MY post, try reading it first, nuh?
I'll be disappointed if Solder isn't cut  
WillieYoung : 6/5/2020 3:46 pm : link
at the end of training camp. Spending another 13 Million of cap space (between this year and next) is absurd. Williams is at least decent for his $16 Million and we now get a comp pick for him if he signs elsewhere. If we pay Solder this year, we still have to cut him next year and, hence, no comp pick even if someone were foolish enough to sign him.
I think..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/5/2020 3:48 pm : link
that savings number for Solder this year is incorrect.

there's little benefit to cutting him now.
RE: I'll be disappointed if Solder isn't cut  
UConn4523 : 6/5/2020 4:07 pm : link
In comment 14915882 WillieYoung said:
Quote:
at the end of training camp. Spending another 13 Million of cap space (between this year and next) is absurd. Williams is at least decent for his $16 Million and we now get a comp pick for him if he signs elsewhere. If we pay Solder this year, we still have to cut him next year and, hence, no comp pick even if someone were foolish enough to sign him.


Who will we be able to spend it on thats a definitive upgrade? Can't worry about how much he's making relative to his production - the money is spent. All that matters is what we will get out of him and whether or not its a better option than the alternative.

The comp pick compensation for cutting him likely isn't very high and would potentially be negated with future FA acquisitions.
The comp pick..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/5/2020 4:08 pm : link
has no part of this discussion. You don't get comp picks for cutting a guy.
RE: Thomas  
Victor in CT : 6/5/2020 4:15 pm : link
In comment 14915878 Dragon said:
Quote:
Was the number four player taken first tackle you compare him to Barkley number two 1set RB taken and DJ number six player 2nd QB. These guys all started as rookies no redshirt year it would be a step backwards for Thomas not to start at LT the position he was drafted to play. In addition you drafted him knowing you needed to improve the starter at that position now sooner than later. I think like all the draft guys he was a surprise pick not a position surprise but he came with the LT top skills that’s what you drafted him for use him.


Exactly. There is no apprenticeship anymore. Let him get in their and play.
...  
christian : 6/5/2020 4:19 pm : link
Cutting Solder now would net the Giants 10M in cap savings towards the 2020 cap, result in 9.5M dead money in 2020, and 6.5M dead money in 2021.

No matter when he's released, he will count for 6.5M in dead money in 2021 -- as result of his signing bonus and money that was restructured in 2019.

There would be 10M in savings in 2021.

And because we often play the game of "we had no choice, who else was available" -- I'd much rather cut Solder and sign Kelvin Beachum to a 1 year deal.

I believe at this point he's the superior player and will cost less money as a stop gap.
This discussion was moot the second the Giants paid Solder  
LBH15 : 6/5/2020 4:38 pm : link
his $3M roster bonus in March. Barring some unforeseen event, he'll be on the roster come September and likely starting at one of the tackle spots.

Come December...that could be a different story.

RE: This discussion was moot the second the Giants paid Solder  
christian : 6/5/2020 4:44 pm : link
In comment 14915911 LBH15 said:
Quote:
his $3M roster bonus in March. Barring some unforeseen event, he'll be on the roster come September and likely starting at one of the tackle spots.

Come December...that could be a different story.


I think it's definitely foregone he's on the roster -- but I think it's quite possible Thomas and Flemmimg both beat him out in camp.

It's not often a player in his 10th year bounces back from being among the very worst. Solder being an average tackle would be miraculous based on his performance last year.
What about Hernandez at fullback  
armstead98 : 6/5/2020 4:49 pm : link
Paving the way for Barkley.

Think about it!
I think its possible as well...just not probable  
LBH15 : 6/5/2020 4:51 pm : link
barring an injury to Solder.

Unless my memory is failing me I would describe Fleming as a guy who could start but not really named a full-time starter.
RE: What about Hernandez at fullback  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/5/2020 4:51 pm : link
In comment 14915913 armstead98 said:
Quote:
Paving the way for Barkley.

Think about it!


Trueno and Lightning!!
...  
christian : 6/5/2020 4:55 pm : link
He's definitely not a long term answer at right tackle -- my observation is much more skepticism of Solder than optimism with the alternative.

It's often hyperbole, but it's quite true in this instance -- it would be difficult to be as bad as Solder was last year for Thomas and Fleming.
Forget about the $3M roster bonus he already received....  
Milton : 6/5/2020 5:02 pm : link
If Solder is unable to beat out Fleming for one of the tackle spots than there is no justification for keeping him at his $10M/salary. You don't spend $10M on a backup, no way, no how. Whether it's on the left or the right side, Solder needs to win a starting job in order to stick.
Its not that simple nor prudent to go into any season  
LBH15 : 6/5/2020 5:22 pm : link
with a shortage of tackles, and ones with so little starting NFL experience. Yes there should be competition to win the starting jobs, but to outright cut Solder because he may only be a reserve or swing-tackle is an aggressive decision.

I am not defending Solder's play which has been bad, nor am I expecting a consistent bounceback season over 16 games.

But I do expect him on the roster and likely starting game 1 at least.

...  
christian : 6/5/2020 5:44 pm : link
This is where I think a player like Kelvin Beachum is a totally viable alternative.

He's going to cost you less than 10M and the last time he laced up he wasn't terrible. Two things you can't say about Nate Solder.

Walking into camp with Beachum, Fleming, Peart, and Thomas and saving some money is my preference.

Beachum would save some money and  
LBH15 : 6/5/2020 6:07 pm : link
probably hold up better in pass protection. Not as good on run blocking and then there is always that messy loyalty thing to deal with.

Yes it is an alternative but not one I see the Giants pursuing.
My guess is that Solder sticks @ LT  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 6/5/2020 7:30 pm : link
this season while Thomas plays RT. After this season, when Solder's gone, Thomas moves to LT. I'm not saying that's what I'd do-I'd put Thomas @ LT immediately-but that seems like the most likely outcome.
...  
christian : 6/6/2020 9:02 am : link
It's dismaying that the best financial outcome for the Giants has Solder costing 26M against the cap in 20/22.

The Solder decision, contract, and restructure have been a real mark on Gettleman's tenure.

Pound for pound I think it's the worst UFA acquisition the Giants have ever made.
RE: ...  
LBH15 : 6/6/2020 9:36 am : link
In comment 14916075 christian said:
Quote:
It's dismaying that the best financial outcome for the Giants has Solder costing 26M against the cap in 20/22.

The Solder decision, contract, and restructure have been a real mark on Gettleman's tenure.

Pound for pound I think it's the worst UFA acquisition the Giants have ever made.


DG had no other options other than Solder. I’ve been told.
RE: RE: RE: I agree  
AFC11 : 6/6/2020 12:20 pm : link
In comment 14915573 flycatcher said:
Quote:
In comment 14915554 GiantGolfer said:


Quote:


In comment 14915548 Angus said:


Quote:


Amateur coach that I am. I also think they should at least try Hernandez at left guard.



Hernandez has played left guard for 2 seasons.


All the more reason.


Awesome.
I think this thread has turned into a SOlder discussion  
Jim in Forest Hills : 6/6/2020 12:52 pm : link
but I wouldn't be upset if Thomas started at OLT.

Watched him vs Auburn and man he is impressive. Moves people in the run game, really good feet in pass pro. Seemed aware of stunts and people crossing him. The Auburn DL has NFL people on there too. Just looked very polished, finished with proper anger and when he gets his hands on you its over.
RE: I think this thread has turned into a SOlder discussion  
BlueLou'sBack : 6/7/2020 2:02 am : link
In comment 14916188 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:
but I wouldn't be upset if Thomas started at OLT.

Watched him vs Auburn and man he is impressive. Moves people in the run game, really good feet in pass pro. Seemed aware of stunts and people crossing him. The Auburn DL has NFL people on there too. Just looked very polished, finished with proper anger and when he gets his hands on you its over.


In a way we are blending two player personnel discussions with one positional discussion, you're correct.

I was in the Thomas camp from well before the draft; I thought he was the best OT available and thought him worthy of the 4th overall draft slot. So I though he was a better potential LT than Solder from the get go.

But there's another discussion about Solder's value relative to his cost, and also whether it's possible Solder has acome back year in 2020.

As I've noted I have perused just about every drop of Giants info available including podcasts by the beats and wannabe football pundits, and a few of the beats have remarked that the think Solder could have a HUGE comback year in 2020, based on info they have that we don't on two accounts.

1) Solder has been playing through injuries far worse than has been acknowledged, in both 2018 and 2019, and that this is the first year as a Giant he might enter the year, at least, injury free
2) is that the strain of managing and looking after his son through his battles with cancer have been far more disabling than the Giants or Solder have acknowledged.

Not just the obvious emotional strain, but the time consumption of the illness. Solder has, obviously with the Giants' full permission and support, missed lots of practice time last year (and presumably the year before too.)

Solder has spent many days flying back and forth to Boston, following his son's treatments and surgeries and supporting him through those.

"More time than you can imagine or than he's let on or talked about" according to Patty Traina, Paul Dottino, and John Schmeelk.

Solder really isn't THAT OLD for an OL, and if he and his son can get through a year healthy we may be underestimating his ability to come back to a plus level of play.

I guess we'll see soon enough, or not.

If he's going to be cut it will be only because of his play, IMO, not for cap space reasons. The Giants won't do that to a guy in his situation IMO.
...  
christian : 6/7/2020 11:26 am : link
I don't know how to quantify 'that' old, but he's entering his 10th NFL season. I believe he will be the oldest lineman to suit up for the Giants since David Diehl in 2013.

The nature of age being such a factor in the NFL includes that injuries become more of an issue. His being banged up, or worse, having played through major injuries doesn't feel like a positive. Feels like a sign of things to come.

There are certainly the Peters, Whitworth, and Penn type players who play into their mid to late 30s, and there are myriad examples of guys with nice careers being done at his age.

The bottomline is he's played abysmal football, is on an abysmal contract, and the Giants just spent a top 5 pick to replace him.

I don't discount the personal and physical tole his time in NY has taken on him. I just wouldn't bet on a guy whose play has been in the virual basement, to return to anything approaching the value of his pay.
We don’t need the value of his pay  
UConn4523 : 6/7/2020 11:41 am : link
that ship has sailed. We need him to just be solid.
...  
christian : 6/7/2020 12:30 pm : link
There are sunk costs (9.5 in 20, 6.5 in 21) -- but there is a real, optional, 10M dollars on the table management can choose to invest in him or a better player. 10M is what the 5th most costly player on the team counts against the cap.

What happened to the turn over every stone Gettleman? That's what I want to see here. There are options. I think Beachum is a better, younger player, who will cost less than 10M.

This is dejavu. Another year where the most expensive player on the team has given no indication in the recent past he'll play up to his contract, and the justification is loyalty or a far flung hope he'll return to a level of play magically.
Maybe he is?  
UConn4523 : 6/7/2020 12:34 pm : link
And maybe they disagree on the outlook for Solder the player in 2020.

You can’t assume he isn’t looking to “turn over every stone” just because you don’t agree with the roster moves. Don’t discount Judge either, I believe he has more personnel say than Shurmur ever did.
...  
christian : 6/7/2020 12:41 pm : link
The Giants had three real options 1) cut Solder outright 2) give Solder the option of a straight pay cut or be cut 3) retain Solder at the current 19.5M cap hit. Those are the stones.

If the Giants brass thoroughly assessed all options and came to a football based conclusion Nate Solder is a solid investment at that cost, coming off a 11 sack, 57 preasure, 4 holding penalty season -- that's a far more alarming prospect than them keeping him out of loyalty.
I don’t see it that way  
UConn4523 : 6/7/2020 12:56 pm : link
and your conclusion isn’t the only one to garner from the situation.

Just call it like it is, if the Giants don’t do what you would do then it must mean they aren’t trying trying hard enough to get better.
RE: I don’t see it that way  
christian : 6/7/2020 1:04 pm : link
In comment 14916357 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
and your conclusion isn’t the only one to garner from the situation.

Just call it like it is, if the Giants don’t do what you would do then it must mean they aren’t trying trying hard enough to get better.


That's a pretty sassy conclusion.

How do you see it?
RE: ...  
Milton : 6/7/2020 1:10 pm : link
In comment 14916355 christian said:
Quote:
If the Giants brass thoroughly assessed all options and came to a football based conclusion Nate Solder is a solid investment at that cost, coming off a 11 sack, 57 preasure, 4 holding penalty season -- that's a far more alarming prospect than them keeping him out of loyalty.
They are not keeping him out of loyalty, they are keeping him as insurance. If he wins a starting job, the $10M is an overpayment, but still prudent. If he can't beat out Fleming or Gates for a starting job (it's a redshirt year for Peart), then $10M is no longer prudent by any measure. If it gets to that point, I'm confident that a reasonable paycut can be negotiated. There could be a paycut up ahead even if he does win the starting job. The Giants have leverage because he ain't getting $10M on the open market from anyone.
Haha, I’m being sassy?  
UConn4523 : 6/7/2020 1:11 pm : link
You concluded they are keeping him out of loyalty. If that’s what you think then nothing anyone says will change your mind.

Like I said, and it isn’t just with Nate Solder, if the giants do not emulate your plan your conclusion is the same - that they aren’t looking into all options to improve.

Not really worth the back and forth on this.
Solder is going to compete for a starting job  
LBH15 : 6/7/2020 1:41 pm : link
and while he isn’t the future at tackle, he still is likely to win that starting role to begin the season imv. And if he does, why should he agree take a pay cut now or then? Have you forgotten who gave him that contract?

Unfortunately, the likelihood is Solder isn’t going to play any better for the Giants in 2020 and he won’t be on the team much longer. But in 2020 he will be.

The guy who is creating the roster just finally brought in some options at tackle but hard to believe anybody should have enough confidence in those to just flat out cut Solder. Particularly with a new coaching staff in the door and a quarantine that has shrunk rookie practice and development time.

Grin and bear it.
RE: Haha, I’m being sassy?  
christian : 6/7/2020 3:40 pm : link
In comment 14916362 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
Like I said, and it isn’t just with Nate Solder, if the giants do not emulate your plan your conclusion is the same - that they aren’t looking into all options to improve.


I'm debating my opinion from my view, with the facts I feel support that view.

I am always happy to acknowledge when I'm wrong. I'm extra happy to acknowledge when I'm wrong, and the outcome is to the benefit of the Giants.

What's sassy is you assigning to me how I feel with little petty quips like:

Just call it like it is, if the Giants don’t do what you would do then it must mean they aren’t trying trying hard enough to get better..

I think the Giants try really hard. I just think they keep fucking it up.

I don't pretend to know how to run a football team. I do know how to run successful businesses. Paying old players who are arguably the worst at their jobs in the entire league, the very most in the entire league isn't very wise.
I was eventually going to make a similar post but for a different  
Mike from SI : 6/7/2020 5:19 pm : link
reason. If Thomas is our LT of the future, and Solder only has a year or two left, I want Thomas getting all the reps at LT now, even if Solder is slightly better. The guy spent the last several years at LT, so you're going to make him learn RT for a year or two and then switch him back? They're not quite as interchangeable as one might think. Let him get his reps and take hi lumps now.
RE: RE: ...  
Fritz : 6/7/2020 5:25 pm : link
In comment 14916107 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In comment 14916075 christian said:


Quote:


It's dismaying that the best financial outcome for the Giants has Solder costing 26M against the cap in 20/22.

The Solder decision, contract, and restructure have been a real mark on Gettleman's tenure.

Pound for pound I think it's the worst UFA acquisition the Giants have ever made.



DG had no other options other than Solder. I’ve been told.


It was a horrible move in hindsight but at the time DG didn’t have many other options. I thought at the time that they overpaid for Solder but they couldn’t go into another season with Flowers at left tackle.
RE: I was eventually going to make a similar post but for a different  
LBH15 : 6/7/2020 6:16 pm : link
In comment 14916412 Mike from SI said:
Quote:
reason. If Thomas is our LT of the future, and Solder only has a year or two left, I want Thomas getting all the reps at LT now, even if Solder is slightly better. The guy spent the last several years at LT, so you're going to make him learn RT for a year or two and then switch him back? They're not quite as interchangeable as one might think. Let him get his reps and take hi lumps now.


What if Solder is slightly better at LT and Thomas is much better at RT this summer?

Imv, the decision is about what combo of tackles is best for the offense this year.
RE: RE: I was eventually going to make a similar post but for a different  
Mike from SI : 6/7/2020 6:31 pm : link
In comment 14916428 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In comment 14916412 Mike from SI said:


Quote:


reason. If Thomas is our LT of the future, and Solder only has a year or two left, I want Thomas getting all the reps at LT now, even if Solder is slightly better. The guy spent the last several years at LT, so you're going to make him learn RT for a year or two and then switch him back? They're not quite as interchangeable as one might think. Let him get his reps and take hi lumps now.



What if Solder is slightly better at LT and Thomas is much better at RT this summer?

Imv, the decision is about what combo of tackles is best for the offense this year.


I think we have very little chance of being a legitimately competitive team this upcoming year so in this scenario we play Thomas at LT. I guess a good counter-argument is not getting Jones killed, but it can't be too much worse than last year, and really we're playing for 2021/2022.
Yeah I hear you but you don’t make that decision  
LBH15 : 6/7/2020 7:14 pm : link
that you can’t be competitive yet nor do you do it at the burden of the rest of the guys on the offense.

Think long term in creating the best roster but play to win in short term.
RE: Yeah I hear you but you don’t make that decision  
Mike from SI : 6/7/2020 10:16 pm : link
In comment 14916450 LBH15 said:
Quote:
that you can’t be competitive yet nor do you do it at the burden of the rest of the guys on the offense.

Think long term in creating the best roster but play to win in short term.


I think I disagree but I definitely see your point. Maybe I'll start a new thread at some point to have this debate with everyone.
RE: I read that 5 times...  
Anakim : 6/7/2020 10:38 pm : link
In comment 14915879 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
and all 5 times, I just kept thinking that dorgan gets increasingly pissed there's a similar handle to his here.


Grammar is overrated no one needs grammar its a waste of time and effort
RE: I read that 5 times...  
Anakim : 6/7/2020 10:38 pm : link
In comment 14915879 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
and all 5 times, I just kept thinking that dorgan gets increasingly pissed there's a similar handle to his here.


Grammar is overrated no one needs grammar its a waste of time and effort
A bit of recent history might be instructive here.  
BlueLou'sBack : 6/8/2020 2:49 am : link
In 2016 when JFR selected Eli Apple with the 10th overall pick, four offensive tackles were taken in the top half of the first round, much like this past draft.

Ronnie Stanley was drafted 6th, Jack Conklin 8th, Laremy Tunsil 13th, and Taylor Decker 16th. FWIW, all 3 of them hard PFF grades above 75 this past year with Stanley earning a whopping 88.5 and earning first team All Pro.

Thomas is IMO a better prospect than Stanley was that year.

That's no guarantee he'll turn out as well, but there's a good chance he will. And pretty much every opinion I've heard about him is that he's the most ready of 2020's quartet of OTs.

I'm guessing he'll win the starting LT position right off if there's anything like a normal training camp, even if Solder does come in healthy and ready to have a bounce back year.
RE: RE: I'll be disappointed if Solder isn't cut  
giants#1 : 6/8/2020 9:16 am : link
In comment 14915896 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 14915882 WillieYoung said:


Quote:


at the end of training camp. Spending another 13 Million of cap space (between this year and next) is absurd. Williams is at least decent for his $16 Million and we now get a comp pick for him if he signs elsewhere. If we pay Solder this year, we still have to cut him next year and, hence, no comp pick even if someone were foolish enough to sign him.



Who will we be able to spend it on thats a definitive upgrade? Can't worry about how much he's making relative to his production - the money is spent. All that matters is what we will get out of him and whether or not its a better option than the alternative.

The comp pick compensation for cutting him likely isn't very high and would potentially be negated with future FA acquisitions.


1. Cap money rolls over, so while there's no one to spend it on now, there's still a benefit to saving that money (if the CS views other players as better options).

2. Players that are cut don't factor into comp picks.

3. Cutting Solder only saves $9.9M in total, which is his 2020 base salary. He's already been paid a $3M roster bonus this offseason and from a cap perspective has $6.5M in prorated bonus money against both the 2020 and 2021 salary caps.
RE: ...  
giants#1 : 6/8/2020 9:18 am : link
In comment 14915916 christian said:
Quote:
He's definitely not a long term answer at right tackle -- my observation is much more skepticism of Solder than optimism with the alternative.

It's often hyperbole, but it's quite true in this instance -- it would be difficult to be as bad as Solder was last year for Thomas and Fleming.


We're what, 3 years removed from having Flowers and Hart as our starting OTs. It's not that difficult to be worse than Solder.
Continuity is worth more on oline than other areas  
Bob in Newburgh : 6/8/2020 12:32 pm : link
Giants are committed to Soldier on roster and starting in 2020. Leave him at LT.

Thomas starts RT. Plan A is that stays there, and Peart starts at LT in 2021. Looking at prototype physical characteristics, Peart projects better than Thomas as an LT, while Thomas projects better than Peart as an RT.

The other advantage is less shuffling is necessary as time goes by. Naturally the hurdle is Peart must develop more core strength to be ready to start next year.
giants #1  
UConn4523 : 6/8/2020 12:54 pm : link
and if you don't spend it on his replacement all depth is erased.

Would I love an upgrade? Yes, I think anyone would. But I'm not going to pretend to claim anyone out there in FA is a definitive upgrade, not to mention said upgrade would have to come here, learn the offense, build rapport, etc all during a time where players are still isolated. Maybe Thomas is the upgrade and I hope he is, but that still means we'd have no depth if we didn't replace Solder this year.
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