rather than OL in his early rounds.
2017: Engram over Ramzsyk
2016: Apple over Tunsil (ok, bong) OR Decker
2015: Flowers...well, finally an OT, but he got it wrong
2014: Beckham over Zach Martin or Donald
The above are guys that I and a whole lot of folks on the Board wanted at the time...this is not hindsight.
I also fault him for not taking a 7th round flyer on La'el Collins; force him to sit out a year, or for another team to trade with us for his rights.
I don't fault him for Pugh in 2013; he was decent for an 18th pick, and I'm not gonna bust his balls that Frederick went 32nd(?) that year.
Given our pitiful OL at the time, I even felt frustrated in 2018 when DG went with Barkley, who like OBJ is a GREAT talent. Not because he didn't go QB there, but considering our OL issues, I'd have at least explored what I could land in a trade down with both Nelson and McGlinchey as targets, both of whom I loved.
I'm not doing a look at me here, I'm just venting some more about Reese primarily. This link got me going again.
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The front office did everything wrong leading up to the draft. They tipped who they wanted, then they didn't take a projected top 10 pick at a position of need who dropped because of a coordinated effort, and didn't have a backup plan.
As soon as Apple was announced, you knew how bad of a job they had done.
It was like the entire NFL colluded to make sure he ended up a Cowboy
Flowers, Pugh, Richburg were varying degrees of poor picks. Flowers was overdrafted and a poor fit with every coach seemingly other than Coughlin, Pugh had ability but was not tough or serious enough. Richburg just ran into some injury issues and didn't work out for whatever reason.
All around just an awful track record. Thank goodness he inherited the core unit from the SB's and for whoever it was in the front office assembling that group under EA because it would seem unlikely to have been Reese based on his track record after.
The offensive line was the downfall because it wasn’t really a lack of attention, but a lack of ability to find the right guys, both in the draft and FA. Flowers, Pugh, Richburg, and then all of the mid round busts like Brewer.
Reese made plenty of mistakes constructing the line from about 2012 to his departure, but I can’t pin injuries on him.
What disturbed me the most was the Engram pick over Ramzyk. By that time, it was clear that the Giants OL sucked. Ramzyk had medical concerns but clearly they were overstated given Ramzyk’s ability to stay on the field not to mention his outstanding performance in a position that’s difficult to find talent. The Giants did have a TE need but there were lots of good TEs who could block. Engram is a matchup nightmare but a 1st round pick looking for a matchup type player is a luxury when you have a crap OL and can get talent in that area instead.
Another 1st round pick that was disturbing was David Wilson who was also a matchup pick. They did need a RB but I don’t think he was ever going to be an every down RB and was also picked to be a matchup problem for the defenses because of his speed. I thought that was another luxury pick.
What disturbed me the most was the Engram pick over Ramzyk. By that time, it was clear that the Giants OL sucked. Ramzyk had medical concerns but clearly they were overstated given Ramzyk’s ability to stay on the field not to mention his outstanding performance in a position that’s difficult to find talent. The Giants did have a TE need but there were lots of good TEs who could block. Engram is a matchup nightmare but a 1st round pick looking for a matchup type player is a luxury when you have a crap OL and can get talent in that area instead.
Another 1st round pick that was disturbing was David Wilson who was also a matchup pick. They did need a RB but I don’t think he was ever going to be an every down RB and was also picked to be a matchup problem for the defenses because of his speed. I thought that was another luxury pick.
Agree with you. I do think we would be feeling differently about Engram if he could stay on the field. Every time he starts rolling it’s another 5 or 6 games down with an injury.
David Wilson was a head scratcher for me. Fast guy, good kick returner, but didn’t seem to have very much vision as a runner. He would take the carry and run full speed immediately right into the backs of his lineman. Lacked the patience to find the hole. That was a concern when he came out of college as he was utilized on sweeps which really don’t work on a regular basis in the NFL.
What disturbed me the most was the Engram pick over Ramzyk. By that time, it was clear that the Giants OL sucked. Ramzyk had medical concerns but clearly they were overstated given Ramzyk’s ability to stay on the field not to mention his outstanding performance in a position that’s difficult to find talent. The Giants did have a TE need but there were lots of good TEs who could block. Engram is a matchup nightmare but a 1st round pick looking for a matchup type player is a luxury when you have a crap OL and can get talent in that area instead.
Another 1st round pick that was disturbing was David Wilson who was also a matchup pick. They did need a RB but I don’t think he was ever going to be an every down RB and was also picked to be a matchup problem for the defenses because of his speed. I thought that was another luxury pick.
What disturbed me the most was the Engram pick over Ramzyk. By that time, it was clear that the Giants OL sucked. Ramzyk had medical concerns but clearly they were overstated given Ramzyk’s ability to stay on the field not to mention his outstanding performance in a position that’s difficult to find talent.
But that’s the key. You’ve got to take the reports you’ve been given AT THE TIME. As it turned out, in this case the Ramzyk concerns were overstated, but again, in retrospect.
This myth is getting as old as the Saints 1st round pick
This myth is getting as old as the Saints 1st round pick
Those scouts were working for a Reese/Ross then though and were following their directives. That would include who they scout, etc. They may be more successful under different management which it seems like we are seeing today.
Kinda hard to draft for a future when you're in win now mode with an aging quarterback. And with about 5 people with votes on draft picks including the owner..
Notwithstanding that -- Beckham was a very good pick and you'd be saying the same thing about Engram if the guy did what we all dreamed he could do -- Engram has all the tools to be a dramatically good skill player
It's hard to pan Wilson -- he was an injury --
Pugh and Richburg were good picks - just couldn't stay on the field
Apple - he was a bad pick - Flowers - he was a bad pick
rest of 1rst rounders
Aaron Ross - very good pick
Kenny Phillips -- I loved that pick
Hakeem Nicks -- fantastic pick
Pierre Paul -- very good pick
Amukamara -- maybe he was a questionable pick
2nd rders
Steve smith -- great pick
Terrell Thomas -- great pick
Clint Sintum -- bad pick
Will Beatty -- ok pick
Linval Joseph -- very good pick
MArvin Austin -- bad Pick
Ruben Randle -- Bad Pick
Jonathin Hankins -- very good pick
Landon Collins -- good pick
Sterling Shepard -- good pick
Dalvin Tomlinson -- Good pick
THird round -- well documented bad picks
almost all of them
Webb, Thompson, OO, Bromley, Moore, Hosley, Jernigan, Jones (not really his fault the guy had a bad accident -- but he was doomed), Barden, Beckum, Manningham (was an ok pick), Alford (was an ok pick)
FOurth round --
DeOssie (good pick), Kehl (bad), Andre Brown (bad),Dillard (bad), Brewer (bad), Robinson and Mosley (bad), Nassib (bad), Andre williams (bad), Goodson (bad), Gallman (ok)
Fift, Sixth and seventh rounders --
pretty much sucked except for Boss and Bradshaw
He gets credit for Cruz
The real problem with Reeses picks was he did not get any depth -- that's what killed us -- his late round picks - 3 and on -- are a pretty dismal record -- but Coughlin, Roth, and the staff also have to take hits there.
Kinda hard to draft for a future when you're in win now mode with an aging quarterback. And with about 5 people with votes on draft picks including the owner..
Yay!! He’s back after a ridiculously long sabbatical..Welcome home..😎
This myth is getting as old as the Saints 1st round pick
His philosophy of high AA players was no myth. He regularly chose WR/DB types over OL.
As for Richburg, he was an awful pick, not because he was an awful player, but because he was 295 lbs. out of college expected to go against guys like Fletcher Cox. We needed some tough MF'ers in the interior as opposed to finesse players. Pugh was a bit of a finesse player too, but you can get away with that a bit more as an OT if you have good feet.
Unless someone knows all the tie-breakers between GM, owner, coach and others, ther eis no single point of failure.
The owner himself is even quoted as saying "Coughlin agreed with EVERY pick!
They both were/are in almost similar situations. There was no easy way out of it..
Reese wasca moxed bag. He contributed to two championships and deserves his due. By the end,it was time to move on IMO. The biggest flaw of the team, the OLine, had been deteriorating for as decade wiyh no signs of improvement. Change had to come.
Gettleman may end the same way. I think he knows he needs to get that fixed soon or his fate will be the same.
Reese made plenty of mistakes constructing the line from about 2012 to his departure, but I can’t pin injuries on him.
Perhaps not Baas or Beatty, but Schwartz had been relatively injury prone prior. I was in favor of all 3 signings at the time but I'd like to think teams have a better ability to analyze stuff like that with the information they have access to. Or at least identify/prioritize players whose injury histories are cleaner.
Unless someone knows all the tie-breakers between GM, owner, coach and others, ther eis no single point of failure.
The owner himself is even quoted as saying "Coughlin agreed with EVERY pick!
You don't think that Reese holds most of the responsibility for those picks, even if others went along with them? He hired Ross, who did an awful job. And unless there was great concern about a pick's behavior/attitude, I expect that ownership went along with the Reese/Ross decisions.
Of course, the scouting department played a huge role in evaluating players, but who oversaw those guys? Reese and Ross. Who evaluated (or should have evaluated) each scout's work product? Reese and Ross. Even if Mara was loyal to long time scouts, Reese and Ross could have given what some scouts reported more weight than that of others, whose reports missed more than they hit. Self scouting is a fundamental role of any good manager.
Do you notice significant improvement in our college drafts since DG took over? Do you notice that Pettit is in the role formerly held by Ross, and that several additions and deletions to our scouting department have occurred since DG took over? Do our improved drafts have nothing to do with these changes, or did the Maras suddenly get smarter in their choices of draftees (since they had so much supposed influence)? I'd say it was likely the change in the college personnel department and GM...seems more likely to me than the Maras.
To be fair to Reese, Coughlin played guys like Markus Kuhn while some guys (probably Reese picks) might not have gotten a fair shake. Jerrel Jernigan had a pretty decent stretch of games in late 2013 and Mara publicly questioned why it took so long to learn that he could play.
He had an eye for talent on some positions WR and DB and was absolutely dreadful on others. Philosophically, I never agreed with him and I never could stomach his approach to the DT position.
Yes,the team won two superbowls under his watch.However, the core of those teams were built under Accorsi. Jerry as head scout had a big role in building those teams but he probably peaked in that position.
You don't think a 2X SB winnning coach won't hold sway over the GM?. If theCoach and the owner agree on a pick, you think Reese is gonna overrule them??
BTW, the 2 scouts who where dismissed, i beleive was with the organixzation about 20 years of not more. So it ain't like Reese hired them.
It was an organizational screw up, from Owner on down.
Not really, no. I'm not going to discuss this year's picks because they haven't suited up yet, but I haven't really seen anyone from 2018 and 2019 other than Barkley who anyone not on BBI would think has a good shot of being in the top ten of his position. Dexter Lawrence, maybe, but while he had a decent rookie season it wasn't anything I'd call great.
Well, when virtually all of the best players he drafted had catastrophic injuries that drastically shortened their careers....yeah, that will be the case.
Still a murderer!
Look, Reese time had expired, along with the rest of the staff and it should have been done all at one time. But the simple piling on one guy is ridiculous, and IMO not even correct..
As fat as Gettleman, it remains to sbe seen. It's a mixed bag.
Wouldn't it be strange if they all agreed all the time in reality in the same way th hey do in the media? Does that sound like real life?
It was not ignored, I think losing Beatty and Nicks really set some things bad decisions in motion. And missing on guys FA like Bass from SF and SchwartZ.
This is not to bash reese as I appreciate all he did for the organization as a scout and as a general manager early on, but those 2 philosophies (and it showed in his drafts) killed the team.
The JPP of tight ends....smh
Are you still frustrated that George Young matched the offer sheet to Rodney Hampton?
How about when Accorsi traded up to get Sinorice Moss?
sometimes it's healthiest to just let it go and focus on the present.
He had an eye for talent on some positions WR and DB and was absolutely dreadful on others. Philosophically, I never agreed with him and I never could stomach his approach to the DT position.
Yes,the team won two superbowls under his watch.However, the core of those teams were built under Accorsi. Jerry as head scout had a big role in building those teams but he probably peaked in that position.
This pretty sums it up in one post.
This myth is getting as old as the Saints 1st round pick
if ownership is picking the scouts or insisting he retain lousy scouts because they're friends of the organization, that's entirely different.
Who was responsible for ross? He was 100% a reese hire just as gettleman brought in mark koncz and promoted chris pettit.
John mara had to literally kick reese and ross out of the building to go scout some quarterbacks and draft eligible players before reese was eventually fired.
I always hear or read that gettleman, and / or pettit is at this college game or that game.
This is not to bash reese as I appreciate all he did for the organization as a scout and as a general manager early on, but those 2 philosophies (and it showed in his drafts) killed the team.
The JPP of tight ends....smh
That’s what I was getting at, TrueBlue. Even the high OL picks, aside from Flowers, were more AA guys than power guys.
2) Other teams make bad picks, too. The draft is crapshooty.
And I know the OP was complaining more about Reese's priorities than his actual picks, but the thread has evolved.
2) Other teams make bad picks, too. The draft is crapshooty.
And I know the OP was complaining more about Reese's priorities than his actual picks, but the thread has evolved.
None of us (I think anyway) know Reese or what went on in their meetings, etc. so it’s pretty much impossible to answer the first question. Based on Reese’s interactions with the media, and particularly how cocky Marc Ross is, I don’t think they consulted David Diehl, Chris Snee, Kareem McKenzie, Rich Seubert, or Shaun O’Hara on any of their picks. In Reese and Ross’ defense (can’t believe I just said I would defend Ross), but ex-players aren’t always correct in their evaluations either.
I believe Eric always says this, but "the catch" against Dallas is what really sent OBJ off the rails. That's tough to predict.
FWIW, I wanted Martin that year, but did not trust Donald. I thought OBJ was gonna be a throwaway Hilliard WR. So I definitely didn't have it right, and was proved wrong by the results, albeit in the short term.
Del, that keeps me up nights. :-)
Their 1st 2 Rds were relatively decent but absolutely disaster after that where they should earn their money. I probably blame Ross more as Reese must depend on him.....but this falls as an average result.
Thw OL was their Achilles....as no matter what they did ....it failed badly...their ego didn't help.
To make matters worse, the Giants have had decent GMs, like Young, Acrosi and I think history will be kind to Gettleman.....so they look worse by comparison.
But I would put them as average with a major negative on OL.
They both were/are in almost similar situations. There was no easy way out of it..
Reese's failures to improve the OL get cited here frequently because they are the root cause of the downturn we've seen.
But we shouldn't forget the praise that reese deservedly got too. "In Reese We Trust"! The 2 SB's. The early round picks that were very strong.
Because of the poor preceding seasons, Gettleman has taken flak here since day 1. The excuses made for him aren't excuses made regarding his picks, it is more a rebuttal of the over the top criticism that has been here from day 1. The expectations to turn the team around immediately. The idea that Barkley was a bad pick. There's been hardly anything good said about him as GM, even though it looks like the #1 picks in his first two drafts are going to be cornerstones here.
That was before he ever made a single move.
And you weren't alone.
Not sure I agree about Getts, I've been lurking and from what i've could gather, Gets did get blamed for the 1st year, deservedely so, but not for the reasons that i beleive. I thought the roster was not that bad but it needed a coaching overhaul from Mcadoo. But the picks in FA was a disater to me
Hiring Schumer was a disaster. No way around it. I think jettisooning OBJ was wrong, but i'm not getting into that.
Drafts are hard to grade. Just bcuz the majority of them started year 1 does not mean they are good. It just means that they had to start bcuz there was no other available option, but somehow, this is a plus for Getts, which makes no sense
Personally, i'm in wait and see mode. Been that way for the last 4 years. I have no feel on this team. For the record, I understand the Barkley pick, it was the right one, but for the wrong team. I understood the Jones pick. makes perfect sense. I just wish they would have gave him more weapons.
Overall, It's a work in progress. i don't feel strongly on the way we are heading one way or another. Too many moving parts and not enough substance.
Those are all good points. I get painted as a Gettleman supporter, but it is more as a rebuttal to a lot of the criticism. He's made some very poor moves here. He also inherited a team in disarray and is working out of it.
His legacy or failure will be defined by how the team does this season and by how Jones and Barkley play out the rest of their career's in NY.
Getts. to me was in a no-win situation, like the end of Reese tenure. You had a aging QB, declining, 2x SB winner who still wanted to play and still on a contract. There were no real good options to deal with his Eli's depending departure. He stumbled, but may have gotten it on track with Jones and Barkley. And I agree, his legacy is riding on Jones and barkly, but for some reason, i don't think he is long for this team. I can't see the Giants paying him a 2nd contract. Unless, this team turns into the Cowboys this year.
Well, Parcells wanted Reggie White, but he didn’t have a lot of traction after the disastrous 1983 season (where the Giants had 3 wins). George Young wanted to fix the offensive line first and the Giants drafted Gary Zimmerman, but Zimmerman didn’t want to play in New York, so the Giants traded him to the Vikings. Both players are in the Hall of Fame. But imagine if we had Reggie White, George Martin, Leonard Marshall, and Lawrence Taylor...