I'm so frustrated with Reese's picks of "shiny" AA types

?

not only for us, but others as well..

...

that it was blatantly clear that when it came to the draft, Reese was a fish out of water

The front office did everything wrong leading up to the draft. They tipped who they wanted, then they didn't take a projected top 10 pick at a position of need who dropped because of a coordinated effort, and didn't have a backup plan.

As soon as Apple was announced, you knew how bad of a job they had done.

was laughable on a league wide scale.

It was like the entire NFL colluded to make sure he ended up a Cowboy

And Pugh instead of Fredricks, Ugh. Almost everything fell apart personnel wise for him.

"there was one?"

Schwartz, Baas, and Beatty each provided terrible ROI. That was probably close to $100m among those 3. Jerry too.

Flowers, Pugh, Richburg were varying degrees of poor picks. Flowers was overdrafted and a poor fit with every coach seemingly other than Coughlin, Pugh had ability but was not tough or serious enough. Richburg just ran into some injury issues and didn't work out for whatever reason.

All around just an awful track record. Thank goodness he inherited the core unit from the SB's and for whoever it was in the front office assembling that group under EA because it would seem unlikely to have been Reese based on his track record after.

offensive line talent on his staff he’d still be our GM. His drafting of certain positions was excellent, particularly WR. I mean Beckham, Nicks, Manningham, Steve Smith, signing Cruz as an undrafted FA is remarkable. Even Randle flashed a bit early on. The insane amount of injuries at that position was not his fault. These guys were not oft injured players when acquired.

The offensive line was the downfall because it wasn’t really a lack of attention, but a lack of ability to find the right guys, both in the draft and FA. Flowers, Pugh, Richburg, and then all of the mid round busts like Brewer.

Schwartz, Beatty, and Baas collectively made about 60M as Giants. All three of those guys had their Giants careers cut short by injury. I’ll also never complain about David Bass. He was one of the best players on the field that Super Bowl.

Reese made plenty of mistakes constructing the line from about 2012 to his departure, but I can’t pin injuries on him.

The Apple over Tunsil was highly questionable but it came from an inability to regroup on the fly and a conservative nature. Guessing that Reese probably figured that there was something wrong with Tunsil,beyond the bong and that’s why so many teams passed on what was a certain top 5 pick maybe even top 3.

What disturbed me the most was the Engram pick over Ramzyk. By that time, it was clear that the Giants OL sucked. Ramzyk had medical concerns but clearly they were overstated given Ramzyk’s ability to stay on the field not to mention his outstanding performance in a position that’s difficult to find talent. The Giants did have a TE need but there were lots of good TEs who could block. Engram is a matchup nightmare but a 1st round pick looking for a matchup type player is a luxury when you have a crap OL and can get talent in that area instead.

Another 1st round pick that was disturbing was David Wilson who was also a matchup pick. They did need a RB but I don’t think he was ever going to be an every down RB and was also picked to be a matchup problem for the defenses because of his speed. I thought that was another luxury pick.

In comment 14923408 Samiam said:

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The Apple over Tunsil was highly questionable but it came from an inability to regroup on the fly and a conservative nature. Guessing that Reese probably figured that there was something wrong with Tunsil,beyond the bong and that’s why so many teams passed on what was a certain top 5 pick maybe even top 3. What disturbed me the most was the Engram pick over Ramzyk. By that time, it was clear that the Giants OL sucked. Ramzyk had medical concerns but clearly they were overstated given Ramzyk’s ability to stay on the field not to mention his outstanding performance in a position that’s difficult to find talent. The Giants did have a TE need but there were lots of good TEs who could block. Engram is a matchup nightmare but a 1st round pick looking for a matchup type player is a luxury when you have a crap OL and can get talent in that area instead. Another 1st round pick that was disturbing was David Wilson who was also a matchup pick. They did need a RB but I don’t think he was ever going to be an every down RB and was also picked to be a matchup problem for the defenses because of his speed. I thought that was another luxury pick.

Agree with you. I do think we would be feeling differently about Engram if he could stay on the field. Every time he starts rolling it’s another 5 or 6 games down with an injury.

David Wilson was a head scratcher for me. Fast guy, good kick returner, but didn’t seem to have very much vision as a runner. He would take the carry and run full speed immediately right into the backs of his lineman. Lacked the patience to find the hole. That was a concern when he came out of college as he was utilized on sweeps which really don’t work on a regular basis in the NFL.

In comment 14923408 Samiam said:

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The Apple over Tunsil was highly questionable but it came from an inability to regroup on the fly and a conservative nature. Guessing that Reese probably figured that there was something wrong with Tunsil,beyond the bong and that’s why so many teams passed on what was a certain top 5 pick maybe even top 3. What disturbed me the most was the Engram pick over Ramzyk. By that time, it was clear that the Giants OL sucked. Ramzyk had medical concerns but clearly they were overstated given Ramzyk’s ability to stay on the field not to mention his outstanding performance in a position that’s difficult to find talent. The Giants did have a TE need but there were lots of good TEs who could block. Engram is a matchup nightmare but a 1st round pick looking for a matchup type player is a luxury when you have a crap OL and can get talent in that area instead. Another 1st round pick that was disturbing was David Wilson who was also a matchup pick. They did need a RB but I don’t think he was ever going to be an every down RB and was also picked to be a matchup problem for the defenses because of his speed. I thought that was another luxury pick.

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What disturbed me the most was the Engram pick over Ramzyk. By that time, it was clear that the Giants OL sucked. Ramzyk had medical concerns but clearly they were overstated given Ramzyk’s ability to stay on the field not to mention his outstanding performance in a position that’s difficult to find talent.

But that’s the key. You’ve got to take the reports you’ve been given AT THE TIME. As it turned out, in this case the Ramzyk concerns were overstated, but again, in retrospect.

This place would actually slay this notion that Reese picked all these guys by himself or Marc Ross. It's been proven a gazillion times that the draft is done by COMMITTEE!!! And the same scouts that were hefre when Reese are was here were all still here up until Jusdge moved on from some of them!!

This myth is getting as old as the Saints 1st round pick

In comment 14923420 GManinDC said:

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This place would actually slay this notion that Reese picked all these guys by himself or Marc Ross. It's been proven a gazillion times that the draft is done by COMMITTEE!!! And the same scouts that were hefre when Reese are was here were all still here up until Jusdge moved on from some of them!! This myth is getting as old as the Saints 1st round pick

Those scouts were working for a Reese/Ross then though and were following their directives. That would include who they scout, etc. They may be more successful under different management which it seems like we are seeing today.

most of those scouts pre-date or worked with Reese. He only (luckily) bought in Ross.

Kinda hard to draft for a future when you're in win now mode with an aging quarterback. And with about 5 people with votes on draft picks including the owner..

to do with all those picks -- then you weren't paying attention. It's not all on Reese.

Notwithstanding that -- Beckham was a very good pick and you'd be saying the same thing about Engram if the guy did what we all dreamed he could do -- Engram has all the tools to be a dramatically good skill player

It's hard to pan Wilson -- he was an injury --

Pugh and Richburg were good picks - just couldn't stay on the field

Apple - he was a bad pick - Flowers - he was a bad pick

rest of 1rst rounders
Aaron Ross - very good pick
Kenny Phillips -- I loved that pick
Hakeem Nicks -- fantastic pick
Pierre Paul -- very good pick
Amukamara -- maybe he was a questionable pick

2nd rders
Steve smith -- great pick
Terrell Thomas -- great pick
Clint Sintum -- bad pick
Will Beatty -- ok pick
Linval Joseph -- very good pick
MArvin Austin -- bad Pick
Ruben Randle -- Bad Pick
Jonathin Hankins -- very good pick
Landon Collins -- good pick
Sterling Shepard -- good pick
Dalvin Tomlinson -- Good pick


THird round -- well documented bad picks
almost all of them
Webb, Thompson, OO, Bromley, Moore, Hosley, Jernigan, Jones (not really his fault the guy had a bad accident -- but he was doomed), Barden, Beckum, Manningham (was an ok pick), Alford (was an ok pick)

FOurth round --
DeOssie (good pick), Kehl (bad), Andre Brown (bad),Dillard (bad), Brewer (bad), Robinson and Mosley (bad), Nassib (bad), Andre williams (bad), Goodson (bad), Gallman (ok)

Fift, Sixth and seventh rounders --
pretty much sucked except for Boss and Bradshaw

He gets credit for Cruz

The real problem with Reeses picks was he did not get any depth -- that's what killed us -- his late round picks - 3 and on -- are a pretty dismal record -- but Coughlin, Roth, and the staff also have to take hits there.

In comment 14923442 GManinDC said:

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most of those scouts pre-date or worked with Reese. He only (luckily) bought in Ross. Kinda hard to draft for a future when you're in win now mode with an aging quarterback. And with about 5 people with votes on draft picks including the owner..

Yay!! He’s back after a ridiculously long sabbatical..Welcome home..😎

In comment 14923420 GManinDC said:

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This place would actually slay this notion that Reese picked all these guys by himself or Marc Ross. It's been proven a gazillion times that the draft is done by COMMITTEE!!! And the same scouts that were hefre when Reese are was here were all still here up until Jusdge moved on from some of them!! This myth is getting as old as the Saints 1st round pick

His philosophy of high AA players was no myth. He regularly chose WR/DB types over OL.

As for Richburg, he was an awful pick, not because he was an awful player, but because he was 295 lbs. out of college expected to go against guys like Fletcher Cox. We needed some tough MF'ers in the interior as opposed to finesse players. Pugh was a bit of a finesse player too, but you can get away with that a bit more as an OT if you have good feet.

At wwhat point do we acknowledge that their was a committee. I fail to understand the disconnect. Do we not think mr Mra and Coughlin and Chris Mara also had a say in who were drafted?.

Unless someone knows all the tie-breakers between GM, owner, coach and others, ther eis no single point of failure.

The owner himself is even quoted as saying "Coughlin agreed with EVERY pick!

you racilist!. I luv you man!! :-)

he favored high AA prospects who played at lower comp levels with limited resumes over more proven football players. Taking the occasional flyer on those hit the lottery typoe players has a place in a teams draft but it can't be the core of your team.

But the buck stops with the GM when it comes with the Giants and drafting, free agency, and overall roster.

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I agree, but why does Reese get constantly and wrongly pointed out as the single point of failure but Gettleman is given the the same excuse, by some? That is rhetorical, of course

They both were/are in almost similar situations. There was no easy way out of it..

Why are there still threads whining about him?

Not here. Personally I feel like Gettleman's book hasnt been written yet. But that's just me.

Reese wasca moxed bag. He contributed to two championships and deserves his due. By the end,it was time to move on IMO. The biggest flaw of the team, the OLine, had been deteriorating for as decade wiyh no signs of improvement. Change had to come.

Gettleman may end the same way. I think he knows he needs to get that fixed soon or his fate will be the same.

sorry for the gibberish

is still waiting for the phone to ring.

In comment 14923403 christian said:

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Schwartz, Beatty, and Baas collectively made about 60M as Giants. All three of those guys had their Giants careers cut short by injury. I’ll also never complain about David Bass. He was one of the best players on the field that Super Bowl. Reese made plenty of mistakes constructing the line from about 2012 to his departure, but I can’t pin injuries on him.

Perhaps not Baas or Beatty, but Schwartz had been relatively injury prone prior. I was in favor of all 3 signings at the time but I'd like to think teams have a better ability to analyze stuff like that with the information they have access to. Or at least identify/prioritize players whose injury histories are cleaner.

In comment 14923459 GManinDC said:

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At wwhat point do we acknowledge that their was a committee. I fail to understand the disconnect. Do we not think mr Mra and Coughlin and Chris Mara also had a say in who were drafted?. Unless someone knows all the tie-breakers between GM, owner, coach and others, ther eis no single point of failure. The owner himself is even quoted as saying "Coughlin agreed with EVERY pick!

You don't think that Reese holds most of the responsibility for those picks, even if others went along with them? He hired Ross, who did an awful job. And unless there was great concern about a pick's behavior/attitude, I expect that ownership went along with the Reese/Ross decisions.

Of course, the scouting department played a huge role in evaluating players, but who oversaw those guys? Reese and Ross. Who evaluated (or should have evaluated) each scout's work product? Reese and Ross. Even if Mara was loyal to long time scouts, Reese and Ross could have given what some scouts reported more weight than that of others, whose reports missed more than they hit. Self scouting is a fundamental role of any good manager.

Do you notice significant improvement in our college drafts since DG took over? Do you notice that Pettit is in the role formerly held by Ross, and that several additions and deletions to our scouting department have occurred since DG took over? Do our improved drafts have nothing to do with these changes, or did the Maras suddenly get smarter in their choices of draftees (since they had so much supposed influence)? I'd say it was likely the change in the college personnel department and GM...seems more likely to me than the Maras.

I think Coughlin, Reese, and Mara all had their own vision of the team they wanted. We made way too many reactionary moves and ended up with a non-functional amalgam.

To be fair to Reese, Coughlin played guys like Markus Kuhn while some guys (probably Reese picks) might not have gotten a fair shake. Jerrel Jernigan had a pretty decent stretch of games in late 2013 and Mara publicly questioned why it took so long to learn that he could play.

who if it wasn't for bad luck, would have had no luck at all. Look at his draft picks very few remain on the team and very few are even still in the league. To me that says it all.

He had an eye for talent on some positions WR and DB and was absolutely dreadful on others. Philosophically, I never agreed with him and I never could stomach his approach to the DT position.

Yes,the team won two superbowls under his watch.However, the core of those teams were built under Accorsi. Jerry as head scout had a big role in building those teams but he probably peaked in that position.

You never answered my simple question. if the Owner said that the Coach agreed with EVERY pick, then that means at least 2 of the people picking were in agreement with the picks.

You don't think a 2X SB winnning coach won't hold sway over the GM?. If theCoach and the owner agree on a pick, you think Reese is gonna overrule them??

BTW, the 2 scouts who where dismissed, i beleive was with the organixzation about 20 years of not more. So it ain't like Reese hired them.

It was an organizational screw up, from Owner on down.

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Do you notice significant improvement in our college drafts since DG took over?

Not really, no. I'm not going to discuss this year's picks because they haven't suited up yet, but I haven't really seen anyone from 2018 and 2019 other than Barkley who anyone not on BBI would think has a good shot of being in the top ten of his position. Dexter Lawrence, maybe, but while he had a decent rookie season it wasn't anything I'd call great.

In comment 14923503 Reb8thVA said:

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who if it wasn't for bad luck, would have had no luck at all. Look at his draft picks very few remain on the team and very few are even still in the league. To me that says it all.

Well, when virtually all of the best players he drafted had catastrophic injuries that drastically shortened their careers....yeah, that will be the case.

In comment 14923463 GManinDC said:

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you racilist!. I luv you man!! :-)

Still a murderer!

because he thought he could win with the baren, depleted, salary strapped team he inherited?

Look, Reese time had expired, along with the rest of the staff and it should have been done all at one time. But the simple piling on one guy is ridiculous, and IMO not even correct..

As fat as Gettleman, it remains to sbe seen. It's a mixed bag.

Always. They speak with one voice on the subject every year. We never hear about the arguments. But do you think they don't happen?

Wouldn't it be strange if they all agreed all the time in reality in the same way th hey do in the media? Does that sound like real life?

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when it comes to the draft. TC wasn't scouting these guys for 6 months, and although he certainly did evaluate players once the season ended, I do believe that he had less influence. I'm not suggesting that they didn't come to agreement, but that the prime mover in the room, particularly for the early rounds, was Reese.

I would normally agree with that, but that would mean Mara came out in public and lied on TC. You think he would have let that slide?

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At some point, the team had to move off of "winnow while Eli is till QB". I would imagine it's hard to draft for the futire when you are trying to win now. I would imagine, as a whole, the Org was looking for "ready now" players, hoping to hit big, vice drafting guys 3 years down the line.

It was not ignored, I think losing Beatty and Nicks really set some things bad decisions in motion. And missing on guys FA like Bass from SF and SchwartZ.

He doesn't strike me as a man that would let someone call him a liar in public. Especially after getting fired and not even shaking Mara's hand..

Had more to do with their philosophy more than who they did or didn't draft. Reese and ross constantly talked about basketball on grass. He wanted athletes that had the measurables instead of football players. The other thing was when he did an interview (I believe with Francesa), he said that he would take the "playmaker" over the offensive line every time. He talked about this in relation to drafting beckham over martin.

This is not to bash reese as I appreciate all he did for the organization as a scout and as a general manager early on, but those 2 philosophies (and it showed in his drafts) killed the team.

The JPP of tight ends....smh

That's where i disagree and to me, it's too convenient to shield everyine from power and decision making. In most situation, the GM is the guy who makes the decions. In the Giants case, it's always been by committee.

I think it's part of the deal. They don't break rank in public. They really don't.

That deal is off. He could have said anything. That wss not a statement to avoid. A simple, we didn't always agree but supported the picks would have been simple..

every pick?