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Eli vs. Phil?

Grey Pilgrim : 6/26/2020 10:24 am
Who was the better player? I'm a HUGE fan of Phil, but it's Eli by a mile imo.

What say you?

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Simms  
Mendenhall : 6/26/2020 1:11 pm : link
and it's not even close. When you consider the wr's Phil had, the era he played in, the pounding he took, I'd stand with Phil.
It's really a tale  
TrueBlue56 : 6/26/2020 1:38 pm : link
Of 2 different quarterbacks and 2 different teams. Phil had the great offensive line, running backs and all time defense and suspect wide receivers. Eli had a very good offensive line, a good defense, good running backs, and better wide receivers. I think the performance eli had in the 2 playoffs leading to the superbowls puts him over the top

He performed under tough conditions in bad weather and came out on top. Think about it. In Dallas in 2007, at Lambeau against green bay in freezing temperatures, an undefeated Patriots team and then in 2011 where he took a beating against the vaunted 49ers team that came after him with everything they had. I love phil, but eli delivered 2 superbowls and stepped up as the games got bigger and the pressure was at its peak.
Different times  
Marty866b : 6/26/2020 1:45 pm : link
With different rules. I think if you gave Simms the skill players that Eli played with the rules where the quarterback and receivers can't be hit at certain times and in certain ways, I believe Simms would have been just as effective. Simms, IMO, was a better thrower of the football. Anyone who says that Eli was "miles" better then Simms probably didn't see Phil play his entire career.
Both great  
Lines of Scrimmage : 6/26/2020 2:08 pm : link
for their respective teams. I think if the Giants had maintained a good OL for Eli's back half we would not be having this discussion or at least it would not be very close.
Eli played a great game in the cold of  
Mendenhall : 6/26/2020 2:18 pm : link
Green Bay but Phil's performance in the cold and wind against Washington in 86 was every bit as good.
Phil  
Spider43 : 6/26/2020 2:36 pm : link
The only thing I'd give to Eli is durability.
RE: Bite  
Biteymax22 : 6/26/2020 2:40 pm : link
In comment 14925168 GManinDC said:
Quote:
disagree on the defense in 2007. People overlook how good that defense was. All you needed was the pass rush. And they did dominate on defense. You don't go undefeated on the road and hold all 3 playoff teams and SB team under 21 points if you're not good..


They were 17th in points allowed that year which puts them in the back half of the league. The defense was functional, but I couldn't call them "good" while being in the back half of the league in points allowed. They didn't carry the team.

For reference they were 2nd in points against in 1986. That defense carried the team. Not only did they break the barrier of good, they were exceptional.
I can't say for sure  
Beer Man : 6/26/2020 2:42 pm : link
But one thing I admire about both, is that they have a knack for coming up big in big games.
It would be interesting to see Phil play in an offense today  
Heisenberg : 6/26/2020 2:45 pm : link
But he was asked to do a lot less than Eli. Played similar number of years and threw like half the passes Eli did. Never had a year anywhere close to as impactful as Eli was in 2011. In 86, Simms threw 58 passes in the entire post season. Eli threw 58 in the 49er game alone, all while getting the shit kicked out of him. Game winning drives for Simms? 17. Eli? 37. I fucking loved Simms but it's not close.
RE: Eli played a great game in the cold of  
Heisenberg : 6/26/2020 2:48 pm : link
In comment 14925235 Mendenhall said:
Quote:
Green Bay but Phil's performance in the cold and wind against Washington in 86 was every bit as good.


????
This game at home? - ( New Window )
RE: Phil  
Mendenhall : 6/26/2020 2:50 pm : link
In comment 14925238 Spider43 said:
Quote:
The only thing I'd give to Eli is durability.


Phil took a beating but then again he didn't chuck and duck.
RE: RE: Phil  
Heisenberg : 6/26/2020 2:52 pm : link
In comment 14925246 Mendenhall said:
Quote:
In comment 14925238 Spider43 said:


Quote:


The only thing I'd give to Eli is durability.



Phil took a beating but then again he didn't chuck and duck.


He threw 14 passes for 90 yards while the Giants ran the ball 46 times. Cmon.
It has nothing to do with supporting casts or eras  
arniefez : 6/26/2020 2:56 pm : link
Phil Simms vs Eli Manning both of whom are among my 5 favorite Giants players on and off the field as fan since 1965.

Staying healthy = Eli

Toughness = Tie both tough as hell

Everything else = Phil

Arm, Accuracy, Ball Security, Athlete, Team Leader. All of it Phil.

I hate these types of comparisons  
DieHard : 6/26/2020 3:15 pm : link
Since they inevitably involve disparaging one guy vs. another.

Phil "10x" the athlete Eli was? I love Phil as much as anyone, but c'mon.

Eli benefited from more passer-friendly rules and some excellent receivers. Phil benefited from a top-caliber defense that didn't require him to constantly come from behind.

Here's my take: they're pretty close, they're both great, and hopefully we won't see another 15-year gap before we get another QB on their level.
RE: It has nothing to do with supporting casts or eras  
TrueBlue56 : 6/26/2020 3:21 pm : link
In comment 14925250 arniefez said:
Quote:
Phil Simms vs Eli Manning both of whom are among my 5 favorite Giants players on and off the field as fan since 1965.

Staying healthy = Eli

Toughness = Tie both tough as hell

Everything else = Phil

Arm, Accuracy, Ball Security, Athlete, Team Leader. All of it Phil.


They tie for toughness? Look, I don't want to knock Simms, but who missed games due to injury? Elis ironman streak alone puts him above Simms in toughness. As far as team leader, again Eli carried the team on his back in 2911. A subpar defense and a non existent running game for most of the season. Tell me the year that simms carried the team on his back.

Simms had one of the greatest defenses for most of his career. The best defensive player Eli had was Strahan and he retired after the first superbowl.
TrueBlue56  
arniefez : 6/26/2020 3:33 pm : link
Toughness doesn't equal staying healthy and read it again.

Eli played in a different era when QBs were protected. Simms did not. I don't care who they played with. It has zero relevance on who was better just like the iron man streak has no relevance on who was better or tougher.

There is nothing that Eli Manning could do better on a football field than Phil Simms except stay healthy.

I'm not knocking Eli who will be in the HOF and is a two time Super Bowl MVP and one of my favorite players ever in any sport.

Most of the people who are discussing this never saw Phil Simms play especially early in career when he could really run. Simms could run backward faster than Eli could run forward.

Eli won 2 Super Bowls with underdogs  
US1 Giants : 6/26/2020 3:35 pm : link
Simms won one Super Bowl with a dominant team.

Too bad Simms suffered so many injuries and lost Parcells' confidence one year early in his career.

Love them both.
RE: RE: RE: Phil  
Mendenhall : 6/26/2020 3:36 pm : link
In comment 14925247 Heisenberg said:
Quote:
In comment 14925246 Mendenhall said:


Quote:


In comment 14925238 Spider43 said:


Quote:


The only thing I'd give to Eli is durability.



Phil took a beating but then again he didn't chuck and duck.



He threw 14 passes for 90 yards while the Giants ran the ball 46 times. Cmon.


The game was much different in the 80's
RE: RE: RE: RE: Phil  
Heisenberg : 6/26/2020 3:42 pm : link
In comment 14925260 Mendenhall said:
Quote:
In comment 14925247 Heisenberg said:


Quote:


In comment 14925246 Mendenhall said:


Quote:


In comment 14925238 Spider43 said:


Quote:


The only thing I'd give to Eli is durability.



Phil took a beating but then again he didn't chuck and duck.



He threw 14 passes for 90 yards while the Giants ran the ball 46 times. Cmon.



The game was much different in the 80's


I remember. Phil was asked to a lot more hang tough on third and longs after two straight runs and keep the drives alive. That's why it's really hard to compare the two. Eli never got the benefit of the top defense and running game and Phil never got the chance to play in an attacking downfield passing game.

But, additionally, that Redskin game was a good win but you can't compare completing 7 passes to Eli beating Favre (and later Rogers) in Lambeau. Maybe Phil could have done that. But Eli actually did.
Eli's 2011 season  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 6/26/2020 3:48 pm : link
is greater than anything Simms ever did. That season gives him the edge. The rest of their careers is a toss-up and you could maybe give the edge to Simms, but Eli's 2011 season was on another level.
I still think Eli's play in 2011 merited  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 6/26/2020 4:01 pm : link
MVP buzz.
It appears we have discovered a rift in the BBI consciousness  
Leg of Theismann : 6/26/2020 4:14 pm : link
How can I help but be biased considering I was born in '87, but still, it seems Eli is the answer no matter how you look at it.

At peak performance? Eli in 2011? No Giants QB has matched that level of MVP-like play, and no QB in NFL HISTORY has had a season that could better be defined as purely "clutch".

In terms of long-term play? I mean clearly Eli was more durable, played more years, and holds all statistical advantages even when discounting for era played in. Even if you want to talk about "well Eli played in an era where defense's couldn't kill the QB"... okay, well that certainly didn't help Big Ben in staying on the field.

Admittedly: Simms' Super Bowl 21 performance was probably the standalone best performance by a Giants QB in any one game in history, but personally I think it depends on how you want to look at that. I personally think Eli's performance in the NFCCG against the 9ers is up there with the greatest performance of all time, even if the stats don't show it. That 9ers defense was one of the best since turn of the century, and that 3rd and 15 TD strike to Manningham was IMO the most ballsy play I've ever seen by a QB on a football field.
Both!  
exiled : 6/26/2020 5:11 pm : link
Both great Giants QBs, and we were SO lucky to have them.
durability gives the edge to Eli  
jeffusedtobeonwebtv : 6/26/2020 5:13 pm : link
You cannot contribute if you are not on the field. Yes, I know the rules in Eli's era were more protective of quarterbacks, but still quarterbacks got hurt. Daniel Jones could not even play his entire shortened (did not start the first 2 games) season without missing time.

Big Ben and Brees both missed time last year under the new rules. Let's not minimize what Eli accomplished by not missing games.
Phil  
mpinmaine : 6/26/2020 5:55 pm : link
by a bit
RE: Eli  
Gmen1982 : 6/26/2020 6:32 pm : link
In comment 14925161 Biteymax22 said:
Quote:
When I look at the Simms (Simms/Hostetler) Super Bowl teams they were defensively lead and were among the top 3 teams in the league those years.

With Eli's 2 Super Bowls we had some good players on defense and a great pass rush, but our defense wasn't dominating games and had rosters that weren't even top 5 in the NFL. I feel like Eli put the team on his back during those runs.

To this day, the greatest game I've watched a Giants QB play was the NFC champisonship game against San Francisco where Eli just kept getting pummeled and getting back up. I don't think Simms wins that game.


Yea I mean holding the best offensive team ever to 14 points is really trying on the QB.
Mickleson?  
Paulie Walnuts : 6/26/2020 7:06 pm : link
,
RE: RE: Eli  
DieHard : 6/26/2020 7:18 pm : link
In comment 14925298 Gmen1982 said:
Quote:
In comment 14925161 Biteymax22 said:


Quote:


When I look at the Simms (Simms/Hostetler) Super Bowl teams they were defensively lead and were among the top 3 teams in the league those years.

With Eli's 2 Super Bowls we had some good players on defense and a great pass rush, but our defense wasn't dominating games and had rosters that weren't even top 5 in the NFL. I feel like Eli put the team on his back during those runs.

To this day, the greatest game I've watched a Giants QB play was the NFC champisonship game against San Francisco where Eli just kept getting pummeled and getting back up. I don't think Simms wins that game.

Yea I mean holding the best offensive team ever to 14 points is really trying on the QB.


Just like Phil had a defense that held opponents to 23 points in 3 playoff games before the broncos scored a meaningless 10 points in garbage time in the Super Bowl.

Maybe they're both really good QBs that also got some help along the way?
My bad  
DieHard : 6/26/2020 7:28 pm : link
It was actually only 13 points in that '86 run, without counting the garbage time scores in the Super Bowl.
RE: Pretty close, I think. Both struggled early. Both had very good years  
djm : 6/26/2020 8:06 pm : link
In comment 14925169 Ivan15 said:
Quote:
Between 2 Super Bowls. Either one could have played well in the other guy’s era.


When Eli was “struggling” he was winning 11 games and throwing for 4000 + yards and actually playing every game. Then he made the playoffs again. And then he made the playoffs yet again and led the team to a super bowl. Simms was in the tub or on the bench throughout the first five years of his career.

Some weird takes here. Simms had more tools and arm strength? Please. He threw a prettier seam pass and that’s it. Eli had pedigree, collegiate production and could make all the throws coming out of ole miss. He was considered the best qb and player in a loaded draft for good reason. It wasn’t just the last name and anyone implying otherwise then or now is an idiot.

They were different players with different styles. Simms hung in the pocket more and took more hits. This was both a virtue and a dangerous aspect of his game. Simms could run faster early on but that didn’t last, by the time 84 rolled around he was not very mobile. Both were very smart. Both were very tough. When the teams were in place, both delivered big time. When shit went south, they sufferered. Eli lasted longer and played on some truly dismal teams from 13-19. Simms endured trashy teams while he was also hurt and then got benched when the handley era would have hurt his won loss record.

Gun to my head I don’t even think twice. I’m taking Eli. He never got hurt and could beat any team on any ground. Simms was close, but not quite as good and virtually every metric supports this. But yes it’s close.

Let me amend this  
djm : 6/26/2020 8:07 pm : link
He was considered the best qb and player in a loaded draft by a lot of outlets. Maybe not everyone, but a lot of people had Eli rated the best.
JonC  
hassan : 6/26/2020 9:01 pm : link
go to pro football reference. there is a rating of qbs relative to their peers. i’ll pull up some numbers.....
adjusted passing  
hassan : 6/26/2020 9:09 pm : link
there is a rating that has a 100 as league average. phil was above average or average every single season after 1980.’. only 79 and 80 were below. he has a high of 120.

in 1990. Eli was below average as often as above and his peaks are not as good as phil’s.

it’s geek stats for sure but i find it more useful than comparing yardage td and int across eras.
Love Phil but Eli was the better all around QB  
Stu11 : 6/26/2020 9:26 pm : link
and had 2 epic playoff runs. However I'd be hard pressed to find a Giant's QB who threw a better ball than Phil. As you can see in all those recently posted highlights from the 80's/90's he literally placed 30/40yd passes on receiver's finger tips with regularity.
RE: Love Phil but Eli was the better all around QB  
Dave in Hoboken : 6/26/2020 9:31 pm : link
In comment 14925383 Stu11 said:
Quote:
and had 2 epic playoff runs. However I'd be hard pressed to find a Giant's QB who threw a better ball than Phil. As you can see in all those recently posted highlights from the 80's/90's he literally placed 30/40yd passes on receiver's finger tips with regularity.


Yeah, Simms (along with Collins) threw the best ball in Giants history, IMO.
Phil might kick Eli's ass  
CardinalX : 6/26/2020 10:46 pm : link
But Eli wouldn't give a shit. He'd just pick himself up, shrug his shoulder to adjust his shirt and go on about his business.
RE: Was NOT” miles better.  
BigBlueinDE : 6/27/2020 10:27 am : link
In comment 14925095 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
.


Agreed. Both great players in their respective eras.
Imagine if:  
Dan_Soprano : 6/27/2020 11:06 am : link
Simms went to the 9er’s and Montana to the Jints..... I suspect the 9er’s would have a couple more rings and the Giants maybe fewer....
For fans who saw both play  
joeinpa : 6/27/2020 1:36 pm : link
I d be interested in hearing what % favored each

For me, Phil, without hesitation was the better quarterback. Better athlete, better arm, and in some ways a better leader.
Give me Daniel Jones  
crick n NC : 6/27/2020 1:54 pm : link
Over Simms and give me Eli over a mutated combination of Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady
Without question.
There's a chance when Jones retires  
Dave in Hoboken : 6/27/2020 2:06 pm : link
he owns all of the Giants passing records and is the best Giants QB of all time.
I was a huge Simms fan  
upnyg : 6/28/2020 12:08 pm : link
Thought Phil he was delayed due to early bad coaching decisions. He was a better thrower, had some good comebacks (Vikings comes to mind). Had the best of all time player in LT and best LBs ever in Giants history, Very average Wrs., good backs, good line, different era.

Eli, was allowed to make mistakes. Had a difficult offense to master (Gilbride). Had good Wr's good defensive line, decent OL early then bad later. Eli had a knack of pulling more games out of his hat. Healthy his whole career

My overall thought was Simms was better day to day, but Eli was best on his best days. 2 great QBs
RE: For fans who saw both play  
upnyg : 6/28/2020 12:21 pm : link
In comment 14925577 joeinpa said:
Quote:
I d be interested in hearing what % favored each

For me, Phil, without hesitation was the better quarterback. Better athlete, better arm, and in some ways a better leader.


I saw both play in person, tv etc.

I dont remember Phil being a "better athlete", he was a statue out there. Got crushed in the pocket with SF, Dallas, Bears defenses.

As I stated in another thread, Phil was more consistent, but Eli had great "best" games. Phil's Superbowl is one for the record on stats, but Eli seemed to play big in the moment.
RE: Simms  
djm : 6/28/2020 1:37 pm : link
In comment 14925211 Mendenhall said:
Quote:
and it's not even close. When you consider the wr's Phil had, the era he played in, the pounding he took, I'd stand with Phil.


Anyone saying it’s not even close for Phil is not being objective in my view. Not even close? You make it sound like Eli player with HOFers all over the offense. In reality he didn’t play with one.

Go back to the 2009 season. Rookie nicks. Second year 3rd rounder manningham. 2nd year Steve Smith. Average at best tight ends and an overrated running game that never really got on track that year. 404 pts scored. 427 pts allowed! As usual, much like every other year when Eli was under center, the defense shit the bed. But it was always Eli’s fault. He carried this franchise more often than not.

So many seasons were wasted despite the offense delivering time and time again when Eli was playing. 2009. 2010 and I’m blaming the D for that year because they blew it against Philly. 2012 offense scored 429 pts and missed the playoffs. 2013 was brutal I’ll put that year’s failure on the O but really it was on Reese and coughlin for failing to see that collapse coming. 2014? 380 pts scored, not bad at all. 6 wins. Defense sucked. 2015? 420 pts scored. 6 wins....

Eli was criminally underrated here over the second half of his career becsuse the offense scored pts but the team lost a lot of games. 2013 and 2017 were the exceptions. Every other year Eli and the offense delivered adequate or better results, and with little to no offensive talent save for Beckham. Literally, Beckham and a bunch of slobs.
Simms never led an offense that scored 400 pts  
djm : 6/28/2020 1:48 pm : link
Although the 85 team scored 399. Scoring was around 20.5 a game in 86 compared to 21.5 in 2009.

Eli was just a more dynamic qb and offensive presence, at least to this eye he was. He played more. He scored more pts. He was more prolific. He had a bigger star power aura to me and for good reason. Simms did play in a different era with different rules and on a team with different philosophies so it’s apples and oranges, but I think fans were always too hard on Eli especially when the team sucked. The stats show it to be true that while flawed and far from perfect, the Eli led offenses usually did its part, or at least did as much as the could with what they had. Eli never really had a bad year if the offense was in place. 1989 simms? He wasn’t that good that year, admittedly so. Granted he lost Bavaro that year and was a training camp holdout, something Eli never had to deal with.

Then again  
djm : 6/28/2020 2:10 pm : link
Fans were too hard on Simms too but it was more because he hadn’t proven anything prior to 84.
This Eli 2011 season thing is weird  
WideRight : 6/29/2020 12:23 pm : link
He played well, QB rating was 92.9, but the team was 9-7.

In 1990, Simms QB rating was 92.7 and the team was 12-2 when he broke his leg.

There just isn't any evidence to clearly say Eli was better, relatively speaking. They were both great for their times
Different Eras  
Mike in Boston : 6/29/2020 12:51 pm : link
But Simms never had to carry a team the way Eli did down the stretch in 2011. Not saying Simms couldn't, but he never had to.

Tell you what though--put Barkley back behind the 1986 line, with Carthon and you'd be wondering if he could break 3000 yards in a season.
RE: Different Eras  
SGMen : 6/29/2020 12:58 pm : link
In comment 14926233 Mike in Boston said:
Quote:
But Simms never had to carry a team the way Eli did down the stretch in 2011. Not saying Simms couldn't, but he never had to.

Tell you what though--put Barkley back behind the 1986 line, with Carthon and you'd be wondering if he could break 3000 yards in a season.
You put Barkley onhe 1986 Giants you'd have a 6.0 ypc guy. His size and speed combination would have have been harder for smaller defenses to stop. Different era and such.
RE: This Eli 2011 season thing is weird  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 6/29/2020 8:35 pm : link
In comment 14926202 WideRight said:
Quote:
He played well, QB rating was 92.9, but the team was 9-7.

In 1990, Simms QB rating was 92.7 and the team was 12-2 when he broke his leg.

There just isn't any evidence to clearly say Eli was better, relatively speaking. They were both great for their times


The difference is that Simms was carried by the best defense in the league and a very good running game. Whereas Eli carried a very bad defense and terrible running game into the playoffs. The '11 defense came alive and the running game improved at the end of the year, all peaking at the right time to come out of nowhere and win a Super Bowl. But Eli put that team on his back and was insanely clutch all season long.

That QB Rating for Simms is impressive, especially relative to his era. But there's just no comparison between 1990 Simms and 2011 Eli. Simms was asked to be a game manager and do just enough, Eli was asked to do as much as possible and he did.
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