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NFT: Knicks Chat: Buzz they may target FVV

DanMetroMan : 7/1/2020 10:36 am
Yes please.


The New York Knicks are projected to have upwards of $50 million in cap space when the NBA offseason commences, and Toronto Raptors guard Fred VanVleet could be a potential recipient of that money.

In a conversation on The Athletic, former league executive and stats wizard John Hollinger says that he’s heard VanVleet’s name connected to the Knicks, and Hollinger likes his value.

“I have him projected at a $20.7 million valuation next season, and the Knicks would be buying his age 26 through 29 seasons on a four-year deal — presumably his prime years…at something around $20 million a year, he’s a solid value who still lets the Knicks have max room in 2021.”

In a May 11 discussion on The Athletic Danny Leroux projected VanVleet:

“will get about $15 million to $18 million per season, but contract length will be key. That is a totally reasonable price for him over the next few years, but a four-year deal could get thorny at the end if the Knicks are at another stage in their process.”
Certainly seems like a logical choice right now.  
bceagle05 : 7/1/2020 10:47 am : link
It would be our best free agent signing in quite some time. Something about Ujiri letting him walk and the Knicks signing him makes me a little uneasy though...
He was on a podcast  
nygiants16 : 7/1/2020 10:51 am : link
was asked about the Knicks, he basically said " it is interesting and i am a free agent, so we will see"..

Amazing last year talking abouy durant and kyrie nlw we are getting excited about van vleet
My feeling all along  
bceagle05 : 7/1/2020 10:57 am : link
is that the Knicks should sign a good player to a long-term contract this summer - I know it's not a great free agent class and we're always worried about cap flexibility, but we're in a powerful position as one of the few teams with cap space. Maybe if we get one guy in the door now to help clean things up, it won't be so difficult down the road.
RE: My feeling all along  
nygiants16 : 7/1/2020 11:06 am : link
In comment 14927274 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
is that the Knicks should sign a good player to a long-term contract this summer - I know it's not a great free agent class and we're always worried about cap flexibility, but we're in a powerful position as one of the few teams with cap space. Maybe if we get one guy in the door now to help clean things up, it won't be so difficult down the road.


Agreed cant turnover 8 guys every single year, it doesnt work..
Yes  
DanMetroMan : 7/1/2020 11:08 am : link
please.


Envergure
@Envergure_Pod
NBA Draft Info

Killian Hayes' agent said in this podcast (ENG subtitles available) :

- KH interviewed with several teams included NY, BOS, ORL
- He will with MIN & GSW
- He wont with CLE, they don't want to draft a guard
im all for this...  
Italianju : 7/1/2020 11:08 am : link
but i mean this is prolly just dot connecting. FVV is one of the better FA, knicks have capspace, so... I mean id rather here this then "knicks not interested".

FVV seems like a guy who might actually have his best years ahead of him. That said i trust TOR's front office a lot more then ours, so why are they letting him walk, ha. I mean lowry is a FA after next season, plus im sure they could trade lowry if they needed/wanted to.
the next couple offseasons...  
Italianju : 7/1/2020 11:10 am : link
are really key for this team. And it doesnt have to be signing Giannis or some other unrealistic thing. Last offseason was a bust as we got no long term piece and kinda got the shaft in the draft (i like RJ but i get he isnt zion or even Ja). This team needs to start adding players who can be here for 5+ years and improve this team. We need to hit on a draft pick or two with all the picks we have in the next couple seasons and actually make a good FA signing or two.
RE: im all for this...  
nygiants16 : 7/1/2020 11:12 am : link
In comment 14927286 Italianju said:
Quote:
but i mean this is prolly just dot connecting. FVV is one of the better FA, knicks have capspace, so... I mean id rather here this then "knicks not interested".

FVV seems like a guy who might actually have his best years ahead of him. That said i trust TOR's front office a lot more then ours, so why are they letting him walk, ha. I mean lowry is a FA after next season, plus im sure they could trade lowry if they needed/wanted to.


I wouldnt be shocked if they trade lowry and resign van vleet..

If they keep Lowry, i could see Van vleet wanting to be a point guard, probably sees knicks with no one on the roster to be a starting point...
Gimme  
DanMetroMan : 7/1/2020 11:12 am : link
Hayes, Ball or Avdija please!
RE: Gimme  
TommyWiseau : 7/1/2020 11:15 am : link
In comment 14927292 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
Hayes, Ball or Avdija please!


Yes, yes and more yes
RE: Gimme  
nygiants16 : 7/1/2020 11:17 am : link
In comment 14927292 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
Hayes, Ball or Avdija please!


agreed
I don't like FVV as the lead guard  
GGGGmen : 7/1/2020 11:19 am : link
he's solid in his role with the Raptors but they have a faaaar better roster.

Another guy they'll overpay to underperform.
RE: I don't like FVV as the lead guard  
nygiants16 : 7/1/2020 11:22 am : link
In comment 14927295 GGGGmen said:
Quote:
he's solid in his role with the Raptors but they have a faaaar better roster.

Another guy they'll overpay to underperform.


He would be really good next to your drafted point guard..

Knicks need shooters, he will play defense and he can run the offense when you need him to..

Hayes  
DanMetroMan : 7/1/2020 11:23 am : link
is a very intelligent kid. He's going to kill it in interviews. Won't be 19 until next month, lefty. Big fan. Wiseman is of course intriguing but the 3 I named are my big 3 for us.
FVV  
Giantology : 7/1/2020 11:24 am : link
is exactly who this team needs. Get it done.
RE: RE: Gimme  
Stu11 : 7/1/2020 11:27 am : link
In comment 14927293 TommyWiseau said:
Quote:
In comment 14927292 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


Hayes, Ball or Avdija please!



Yes, yes and more yes

Thats the thing about this draft. People complain about it, but rather than being elite at the top and then a big drop off, I feel like the top 8-10 are deeper than last year
And yes I'd max out FVV  
Stu11 : 7/1/2020 11:28 am : link
This is the type of guy we need to jump on for his prome years
Avdija may be off the board quickly.  
bceagle05 : 7/1/2020 11:31 am : link
Lot of teams with young guards will target him as their wing of choice - Cleveland and Golden State right at the top of that list. Definitely a nice choice for the Knicks if available.
FVV  
NYG22 : 7/1/2020 11:41 am : link
What to like about FVV:

-his age (26) and lack of accumulated wear and tear esp at the pro level
-Intangibles: high IQ, tenacious approach etc.
-shooting (41 FG, 39 3ptFG, 84 FT)
-savvy offensive player


Concerns:

-although he has had big moments in the biggest of moments, he's either been a back-up or a co-lead guard, the latter often off the ball
-subpar athlete; subpar size: this has been largely offset by his skill, savvy and work ethic
-creativity as a QB of an offense
-doesn't often finish at the rim but has an array of floaters and push shots

Questions:

If NYK drafted any of many point guards in this draft class, would FVV be inclined to come to NYK?

What will FVV cost (my guess is 4y, $25 per)?
RE: FVV  
nygiants16 : 7/1/2020 11:44 am : link
In comment 14927309 NYG22 said:
Quote:
What to like about FVV:

-his age (26) and lack of accumulated wear and tear esp at the pro level
-Intangibles: high IQ, tenacious approach etc.
-shooting (41 FG, 39 3ptFG, 84 FT)
-savvy offensive player


Concerns:

-although he has had big moments in the biggest of moments, he's either been a back-up or a co-lead guard, the latter often off the ball
-subpar athlete; subpar size: this has been largely offset by his skill, savvy and work ethic
-creativity as a QB of an offense
-doesn't often finish at the rim but has an array of floaters and push shots

Questions:

If NYK drafted any of many point guards in this draft class, would FVV be inclined to come to NYK?

What will FVV cost (my guess is 4y, $25 per)?


He would most likely start next to the point guard the Knicms draft, move Rj tk the 3..

Hopefully trade randle and sign a stretch 4
RE: RE: FVV  
bceagle05 : 7/1/2020 11:51 am : link
In comment 14927310 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
He would most likely start next to the point guard the Knicms draft, move Rj tk the 3..

Hopefully trade randle and sign a stretch 4

That actually sounds like a team worth watching.
What about...  
JJ2525 : 7/1/2020 12:02 pm : link
signing FVV and drafting Obi Toppin? That guy looks to me like a stretch 4 who will be a 20/9 guy for the next 10 years in the league.
FVV  
TyreeHelmet : 7/1/2020 12:06 pm : link
I've been a big fan of his since his college days and he's exactly what the Knicks need right now. I don't get care if its an overpay, just make it happen. Enough with the cap flexibility and more about actually bringing in good players- something they failed miserably at last summer. The guy is a proven winner.


What are his other options outside of staying in Toronto?
RE: What about...  
DanMetroMan : 7/1/2020 12:08 pm : link
In comment 14927319 JJ2525 said:
Quote:
signing FVV and drafting Obi Toppin? That guy looks to me like a stretch 4 who will be a 20/9 guy for the next 10 years in the league.


Already 22 years old, below average defender, thin base and slow lateral movement. Huge pass from me. Poor man's Amar'e.
Continue  
DanMetroMan : 7/1/2020 12:10 pm : link
to hear Hayes and Avdija have major buzz and now that Okongwu has some big time fans within some organizations.
Just  
DanMetroMan : 7/1/2020 12:12 pm : link
for context, Obi Toppin is going to be turning 23 by the time the Knicks are playing again, Okongwu will be 20, Wiseman 20, Hayes 19.
I don’t love this draft  
GMEN46 : 7/1/2020 12:19 pm : link
I like Halliburton from Iowa state, but not really anyone else. And I don’t like him that much.

I would not mind signing van fleet and then go hard after Beal, with van fleet starting and frank as the backup then we do not need to draft a PG.

Would you guys take Van Fleet and then make the following trade:

2020 lottery pick - likely top 6
2021 - Dallas Pick
2023 - Knicks or Dallas 1st rounder - we will give them the worst of the 2 picks
smith Jr and randle for salary purposes

For Beal

PG - Van Fleet
SG - Beal
SF - Barrett
PF - Knox
C - Mitch

Bench TBD

We would still have plenty of draft picks:

2020 - 1st rounder from clippers, bobcats 2ns rounder
2021 - 1st rounder from Mavs, bobcats 2nd rounder
2022 - out own first rounder

This would also leave us the opportunity for a max player in 2021 with a very attractive roster.

Chances are Anthony Davis opts into final year of his contract making him unrestricted in 2021, which will be the greatest free agent class in the history of the NBA - Giannis, AD, Lebron, Kawhi, Paul George, blake griffin, Rudy gobert, oladipo.

At that point we actually have an attractive team that intheory would be missing one more big piece.
Van Vleet  
Jon in NYC : 7/1/2020 12:21 pm : link
at 4-18 is a good value compared to many guys in the NBA. I guess he could work next to any of Haliburton, Hayes or Ball, who are probably the most likely picks at this point.

I like Avidja, but I have a hard time fitting him and Barrett into the same lineup.
I'd sign up for the following  
NYG22 : 7/1/2020 12:25 pm : link
Draft:

6 PG Hayes, Halliburton or Ball in that order
27 PF Xavier Tillman
38 Wing Desmond Bane

FA:

FVV 4Y, $25mm per

Roster, MPG:

PG FVV 24, Hayes 24, Harper
SG Ntlikina 24, Bane 16, FVV 8
SF: RJB 32, Bullock 16, Brazdeikas, Knox (trade bait)
PF: Randle unless/hopefully traded 30, Tillman 18
C: Robinson 28, Gibson 20
Beal  
TyreeHelmet : 7/1/2020 12:28 pm : link
I would do that trade in a heartbeat but I think Washington hangs up on the phone on that offer. Pick 6-8 in a weak draft and 2021 Dallas pick just isn't that valuable. I think the Knicks would have to jump to the top 3 and include Barrett for Washington to consider it.

I hope I'm wrong though- I would love to have Beal.
FVV  
DanMetroMan : 7/1/2020 12:31 pm : link
is heady and a hard worker. If I'm the Knicks I'm adding him regardless of the targets in the draft. I think he's a perfect player to play with the early years of Hayes and Ball. I strongly prefer a PG with the early pick but if they somehow came away with Okongwu or Avdija with a PG at the late pick you won't see me complaining.
FVV  
31southst : 7/1/2020 1:28 pm : link
The thing in general that I think is important and not specific to FVV is we need some competent younger players here for the longer term as part of developing. Signing FVV would likely help RJ's and Mitch's development too (especially Mitch who cannot initiate offense himself). I would use the same logic in supporting a trade for CP3 (assuming no real assets given up). The path's that make sense to me are something like either signing FVV (draft a PG or stretch 4) or trading Randle for CP3 and looking at signing Wood. You keep a reasonably clean balance sheet beyond '21 (we are not getting Giannis) but can start really developing and not cycling through the tanking/miss on FA cycle.

Beal  
GMEN46 : 7/1/2020 1:33 pm : link
I would go all in on him, he is exactly the type of player we need, can score at will, not a selfish offensive player, very improved defensively. I think it can get done without Barret and Mitch. I’m really hoping for an improved Knox this year he is still so young and has all the tools. He is year 3 development is so important. Also need to see smith jr improve. We need these guys as trade assets. We need a stud here before 2021 to get a big fee agent to sign.

If Beal wants out I don’t think anyone besides maybe the pelicans and OKC can offer a better deal. And I just don’t see Beal wanting to go to either place, which probably makes them not want to trade for him on a shorter contract.
FVV is a no-brainer to me  
JJ2525 : 7/1/2020 1:41 pm : link
This franchise needs credibility and needs to develop some semblance of a winning culture. FVV is entering his prime, has an off the charts IQ, is a crazy hard worker and is a winning player.
The guy i am going all in on is Booker  
nygiants16 : 7/1/2020 1:48 pm : link
probably will not happen, but i would give up a lot for him..

Sign van vleet, you then have 2 recruiters in free agency with Mitch..
Booker is gonna link up with another star  
bceagle05 : 7/1/2020 1:57 pm : link
and just be lethal, whether he's creating or playing off the ball. Not sure he can carry a team, but put good pieces around him the defense has to respect, and he'll be Klay Thompson 2.0 on the offensive end.
RE: Beal  
TyreeHelmet : 7/1/2020 2:18 pm : link
In comment 14927358 GMEN46 said:
Quote:
I would go all in on him, he is exactly the type of player we need, can score at will, not a selfish offensive player, very improved defensively. I think it can get done without Barret and Mitch. I’m really hoping for an improved Knox this year he is still so young and has all the tools. He is year 3 development is so important. Also need to see smith jr improve. We need these guys as trade assets. We need a stud here before 2021 to get a big fee agent to sign.

If Beal wants out I don’t think anyone besides maybe the pelicans and OKC can offer a better deal. And I just don’t see Beal wanting to go to either place, which probably makes them not want to trade for him on a shorter contract.


I agree with you on getting Beal. Just don't agree they would even consider the cost. And the package you presented could be easily be beat by many teams outside of OKC and NO. While the Dallas 2021 pick is unprotected, the odds are heavilt favored on it being in the back 3rd of the draft. A late 1st simply isn't that valuable. Adding that to a pick between 6-8 in a weak draft and a future 1st 3 years out I don't think even gets Washington to consider it. This is a 27 yeard old all nba talent who averaged 30 a game this year and hasn't expressed a desire to leave. Why is Washington doing that deal?

Am I wrong?
I like FVV and  
Enzo : 7/1/2020 2:50 pm : link
there's a couple of other FAs that interest me, but given the current economic situation, there may be some opportunities to really extort some owners looking to save $$ by taking on contracts in exchange for draft picks.

But I really doubt that's going to be on Leon's agenda.
Stop signing good but not great players  
90.Cal : 7/1/2020 2:59 pm : link
Go young and suck more, see if R.J. Barrett can develop into a good player.. go the 76ers route the next 5 years and give yourself a chance to draft a star or two.. the only way.
RE: Stop signing good but not great players  
bceagle05 : 7/1/2020 3:16 pm : link
In comment 14927393 90.Cal said:
Quote:
Go young and suck more, see if R.J. Barrett can develop into a good player.. go the 76ers route the next 5 years and give yourself a chance to draft a star or two.. the only way.

I'd be OK doing this next year, for sure, but I think most of us assume they'll try to compete and chase stars - it's just what they do.
Free Agents  
31southst : 7/1/2020 3:26 pm : link
I'd argue it has been a bit since they signed even "good" players let alone stars. Certainly not last off-season.

I am all in on development but I think development without a good PG is very hard, particularly for a big like Mitch.
You have to be able to do both  
nygiants16 : 7/1/2020 3:43 pm : link
It is not 1 or the other, you have to be able to draft well and sign free agents..

Just tanking doesnt work..
This is a perfect year to trade the pick  
Earl the goat : 7/1/2020 3:46 pm : link
Not a great class and 2021 could be loaded

Leon shoukd stick to trades and FA in this offseason

Dump Randle and Smith and try and unload Noah’s contract
Now Kareem Abdul-Jabbar says it was his "dream"  
bceagle05 : 7/1/2020 4:25 pm : link
to play for the Knicks. Freaking Dolan.
RE: This is a perfect year to trade the pick  
Enzo : 7/1/2020 4:48 pm : link
In comment 14927407 Earl the goat said:
Quote:
Not a great class and 2021 could be loaded

Leon shoukd stick to trades and FA in this offseason

Dump Randle and Smith and try and unload Noah’s contract

can't trade Noah's cap hit. Stretching him when they did was dumb - and that was a first guess by quite a few of us here.
I'm  
DanMetroMan : 7/1/2020 5:13 pm : link
not getting into a lather over FVV but the guy is 27 in February with low mileage. He's the kind of player a rebuilding team SHOULD be willing to overspend on. You need to start somewhere. Career 39% from 3 and unlike some other past Knicks dumb moves he's extremely unlikely to suddenly become a black hole that holds back the progress of others. Even if the Knicks land Ball or Hayes, neither one is stepping in and playing 40 minutes per night as a teenager.
RE: Now Kareem Abdul-Jabbar says it was his  
Semipro Lineman : 7/1/2020 5:28 pm : link
In comment 14927434 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
to play for the Knicks. Freaking Dolan.



In his latest article, a psychic medium told Simmons that Wilt also wanted to play for the Knicks but he knew that they would eventually be owned by Dolan and went to the Lakers instead
It will be interesting to see  
nygiants16 : 7/1/2020 5:37 pm : link
What Van Vleets value is in this market, with not a lot of teams with cap space, i wonder what contract he gets, no way he gets maxed, but wonder if 4 years 80 million gets it done
RE: Stop signing good but not great players  
Strahan91 : 7/1/2020 5:38 pm : link
In comment 14927393 90.Cal said:
Quote:
Go young and suck more, see if R.J. Barrett can develop into a good player.. go the 76ers route the next 5 years and give yourself a chance to draft a star or two.. the only way.

Tanking was an iffy strategy before the lottery odds were changed. Now it'd be completely illogical to tank for 5 years.
The  
DanMetroMan : 7/1/2020 5:41 pm : link
Knicks are going to be bad (win-loss) whether they add FVV or not. Let's not pretend if they add him they suddenly are picking 17th next year.
RE: The  
Jon in NYC : 7/1/2020 6:06 pm : link
In comment 14927489 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
Knicks are going to be bad (win-loss) whether they add FVV or not. Let's not pretend if they add him they suddenly are picking 17th next year.


I'm an eternal optimist, but there's certainly reason to believe the Knicks will be a better team next year, especially if they add FVV.
RE: The  
Strahan91 : 7/1/2020 6:13 pm : link
In comment 14927489 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
Knicks are going to be bad (win-loss) whether they add FVV or not. Let's not pretend if they add him they suddenly are picking 17th next year.

I think they'd be much improved (depending on who the coach is and other moves they make). I agree they won't be picking 17th but even if you just take Miller's winning % it would put them at the 9th spot in the EC. Add Van Vleet, RJ going into his second year, a solid coach and hopefully some other savvy moves and there's no reason not to think they wouldn't be in the mix for the 8th spot in the East.
Number 1 priority  
nygiants16 : 7/1/2020 6:19 pm : link
trade randle..

Number 2 add shooting..

Number 3 add a vet point that can shoot
Randle's  
Jon in NYC : 7/1/2020 6:21 pm : link
basically an expiring. He also still has value across the league.

I'm not that desperate to trade him unless we can actually get something of value in exchange.
I think FVV  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 7/1/2020 6:39 pm : link
would be a great signing for you guys. I think he's a really nice fit next to Barrett on a lot of levels.
I think randle is a good player  
nygiants16 : 7/1/2020 6:47 pm : link
but bad fit
RE: Stop signing good but not great players  
djm : 7/1/2020 9:12 pm : link
In comment 14927393 90.Cal said:
Quote:
Go young and suck more, see if R.J. Barrett can develop into a good player.. go the 76ers route the next 5 years and give yourself a chance to draft a star or two.. the only way.


Oh god no
RE: I think randle is a good player  
NYG22 : 7/2/2020 8:04 am : link
In comment 14927529 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
but bad fit


I agree for the following reason.

If you allow Randle to be what he should be (rebounder, inside scorer, occasional ball handler), he provides some value.

But if you give him all the freedom in the world to handle it and play 1v1 from the top of the key, it exposes his decision making flaws. He is also not a floor spacing BIG.

On a team that is devoid of an NBA caliber facilitator (see Knicks last year), Randle is at his worst.
RE: RE: I think randle is a good player  
nygiants16 : 7/2/2020 8:14 am : link
In comment 14927720 NYG22 said:
Quote:
In comment 14927529 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


but bad fit



I agree for the following reason.

If you allow Randle to be what he should be (rebounder, inside scorer, occasional ball handler), he provides some value.

But if you give him all the freedom in the world to handle it and play 1v1 from the top of the key, it exposes his decision making flaws. He is also not a floor spacing BIG.

On a team that is devoid of an NBA caliber facilitator (see Knicks last year), Randle is at his worst.


Randle played better eith Payton, but with payton at point there was no spacr for Barrett
Here's my 2 cents.  
robbieballs2003 : 7/2/2020 9:11 am : link
Here are some goals that really need to be accomplished.

1. Fix the front office. They need competent people and a clear vision. That doesn't necessarily mean overhaul but we need to stop being viewed as the laughing stock of the NBA and stop making bad decisions.

2. We need to develop our young guys. We need the right players around to help that process. I fell like too long we have a bunch of pieces that never work well together. Whatever that takes should be done. That gives is a huge advantage whether that is making us an attractive destination for FA, just getting better overall, and/or having trade value. I agree with the poster that said we do have to start winning games at some point.

3. This is crucial. We need to maintain our cap space as best as possible. Yes, we have struck out year after year on trying to land the big fish. We all get it. However, that doesn't mean it was the wrong approach. It shows me more that players don't like how this franchise is run. That doesn't mean we need to find a different way to acquire talent. It means you need to look at number one on my list and change that. It means you need to look at number 2 and start winning.

But the reason this is crucial is we all know NBA players want to choose who they team up with. I understand the poster above saying if we had VanVleet, Beal, and 9ur ither guys it would be attractive. Yes, but who is going to come here by himself to turn things around? If all those FA are available then they will 100% want to choose another FA or 2 and go to a team that can fit them. We will be left with the Stoudemire of the class and not be that much better for it. Going after 3 is probably overkill but we should hope to have a way to land 2 if possible. If not I doubt we get anybody we want. We'll be choosing option 8 instead of 1 and 2. And, again, this doesn't happen unless we change the culture of this team up top.
RE: FVV  
djm : 7/2/2020 10:52 am : link
In comment 14927334 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
is heady and a hard worker. If I'm the Knicks I'm adding him regardless of the targets in the draft. I think he's a perfect player to play with the early years of Hayes and Ball. I strongly prefer a PG with the early pick but if they somehow came away with Okongwu or Avdija with a PG at the late pick you won't see me complaining.


Agreed. I generally don't worry too much about the money assuming the player is sound and healthy, but this move just seems so necessary and warranted. Knicks need a floor leader and player that does things the right way more than they need cap space. Get it done. Then build a team around Vleet so that he's not exposed or considered overpaid despite his strong points. There is a long history of solid or better NBA players that were run out of MSG in disgrace because the Knicks culture over shadowed any positives that player brought to the table. Or, good players that were salary dumped because of an all or nothing mentality here that the Knicks had to get the biggest fish of all, no matter the cost. See Zack Randolph, Crawford and many others.

Guys can be overpaid and you can still win. It happens all the time.
RE: Here's my 2 cents.  
DanMetroMan : 7/2/2020 11:15 am : link
In comment 14927751 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
Here are some goals that really need to be accomplished.

1. Fix the front office. They need competent people and a clear vision. That doesn't necessarily mean overhaul but we need to stop being viewed as the laughing stock of the NBA and stop making bad decisions.

2. We need to develop our young guys. We need the right players around to help that process. I fell like too long we have a bunch of pieces that never work well together. Whatever that takes should be done. That gives is a huge advantage whether that is making us an attractive destination for FA, just getting better overall, and/or having trade value. I agree with the poster that said we do have to start winning games at some point.

3. This is crucial. We need to maintain our cap space as best as possible. Yes, we have struck out year after year on trying to land the big fish. We all get it. However, that doesn't mean it was the wrong approach. It shows me more that players don't like how this franchise is run. That doesn't mean we need to find a different way to acquire talent. It means you need to look at number one on my list and change that. It means you need to look at number 2 and start winning.

But the reason this is crucial is we all know NBA players want to choose who they team up with. I understand the poster above saying if we had VanVleet, Beal, and 9ur ither guys it would be attractive. Yes, but who is going to come here by himself to turn things around? If all those FA are available then they will 100% want to choose another FA or 2 and go to a team that can fit them. We will be left with the Stoudemire of the class and not be that much better for it. Going after 3 is probably overkill but we should hope to have a way to land 2 if possible. If not I doubt we get anybody we want. We'll be choosing option 8 instead of 1 and 2. And, again, this doesn't happen unless we change the culture of this team up top.


Your first point has already been checked off. New FO.
Dan,  
robbieballs2003 : 7/2/2020 11:20 am : link
not really. Work still needs to be done but, like I said, it doesn't have to be getting rid of people but rather show they know what the fuck they are doing. We've been through this horse and pony show before with many different people running the show just like Phil Jackson. Different people, same disaster.
RE: Dan,  
nygiants16 : 7/2/2020 11:25 am : link
In comment 14927841 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
not really. Work still needs to be done but, like I said, it doesn't have to be getting rid of people but rather show they know what the fuck they are doing. We've been through this horse and pony show before with many different people running the show just like Phil Jackson. Different people, same disaster.


Phil never cleaned out the front office, he brought in one guy and that was it..

Rose has literally cleaned out the front office and hired his own guys, who many people habe said have been great hires..

He even made changes to the scouting..

No president has come in and cleared oit the front office like he has
RE: RE: Dan,  
robbieballs2003 : 7/2/2020 11:31 am : link
In comment 14927848 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 14927841 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


not really. Work still needs to be done but, like I said, it doesn't have to be getting rid of people but rather show they know what the fuck they are doing. We've been through this horse and pony show before with many different people running the show just like Phil Jackson. Different people, same disaster.



Phil never cleaned out the front office, he brought in one guy and that was it..

Rose has literally cleaned out the front office and hired his own guys, who many people habe said have been great hires..

He even made changes to the scouting..

No president has come in and cleared oit the front office like he has


Again, it is more than "cleaning out". It is showing you are a well run organization.
RE: Randle's  
TyreeHelmet : 7/2/2020 1:57 pm : link
In comment 14927516 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
basically an expiring. He also still has value across the league.

I'm not that desperate to trade him unless we can actually get something of value in exchange.


I'm sorry but Randle has no value. You would have to include a sweetener or take on a bad contract to move him. I'd look into that Rozier swap if its still possible.

I'm very optimistic about Rose and really like his hires thus far. But its still the first time he's ever worked in a front office let alone run one. But I do feel good about the wire- especially with Wesley in an official role.
According to woj  
nygiants16 : 7/2/2020 2:10 pm : link
Jacque Vaughn is the favorite to be coach next year for the nets, surprised they do not go for a more established players coach
RE: RE: Randle's  
NYG22 : 7/2/2020 2:37 pm : link
In comment 14927970 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
In comment 14927516 Jon in NYC said:


Quote:


basically an expiring. He also still has value across the league.

I'm not that desperate to trade him unless we can actually get something of value in exchange.



I'm sorry but Randle has no value. You would have to include a sweetener or take on a bad contract to move him. I'd look into that Rozier swap if its still possible.

I'm very optimistic about Rose and really like his hires thus far. But its still the first time he's ever worked in a front office let alone run one. But I do feel good about the wire- especially with Wesley in an official role.


Put Randle on a team that has legit guard play e.g. Portland and he's much better than he showed last year.
RE: RE: Randle's  
Strahan91 : 7/2/2020 2:40 pm : link
In comment 14927970 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:

I'm sorry but Randle has no value. You would have to include a sweetener or take on a bad contract to move him. I'd look into that Rozier swap if its still possible.

Rozier has an extra year on his deal so I'd be pretty unhappy if they did that swap.
Randle needs to be the 2nd or 3rd option  
nygiants16 : 7/2/2020 2:42 pm : link
Last year he was given the ball at the top of tbe key and basically ran the offense..

With a true point who can shoot maybe he fits better and barret will still have the space to work..

Problem is also his outside shot dis not improve like people thought..
RE: RE: Randle's  
Jon in NYC : 7/2/2020 2:49 pm : link
In comment 14927970 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
In comment 14927516 Jon in NYC said:


Quote:


basically an expiring. He also still has value across the league.

I'm not that desperate to trade him unless we can actually get something of value in exchange.



I'm sorry but Randle has no value. You would have to include a sweetener or take on a bad contract to move him. I'd look into that Rozier swap if its still possible.

I'm very optimistic about Rose and really like his hires thus far. But its still the first time he's ever worked in a front office let alone run one. But I do feel good about the wire- especially with Wesley in an official role.


Apology accepted, but I dont think that's true. His contract isn't an albatross and he still puts up a significant amount of counting stats. He's just a bad fit for a team with 0 shooters.
I don’t subscribe to The Athletic, but a highlight from Vorkunov...  
bceagle05 : 7/2/2020 3:09 pm : link
Mike Vorkunov
@MikeVorkunov
Alex Kline couch surfed to scout games for the Pelicans. He started filing reports for NBA teams in college. He gained fame as @TheRecruitScoop but he's prepared to be a Knicks scout awhile.
“If you can imagine Sam Presti at 26, you’d think of Alex Kline."
RE: I don’t subscribe to The Athletic, but a highlight from Vorkunov...  
Anakim : 7/2/2020 3:17 pm : link
In comment 14928009 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
Mike Vorkunov
@MikeVorkunov
Alex Kline couch surfed to scout games for the Pelicans. He started filing reports for NBA teams in college. He gained fame as @TheRecruitScoop but he's prepared to be a Knicks scout awhile.
“If you can imagine Sam Presti at 26, you’d think of Alex Kline."


My friend is better :)
RE: RE: I don’t subscribe to The Athletic, but a highlight from Vorkunov...  
bceagle05 : 7/2/2020 3:23 pm : link
In comment 14928012 Anakim said:
Quote:
My friend is better :)

Hope he lands somewhere in the league - I folllow him on social media and enjoy his breakdowns.
Am i allowed to post the article?  
nygiants16 : 7/2/2020 3:24 pm : link
.
RE: RE: RE: Randle's  
TyreeHelmet : 7/2/2020 3:40 pm : link

Apology accepted, but I dont think that's true. His contract isn't an albatross and he still puts up a significant amount of counting stats. He's just a bad fit for a team with 0 shooters. [/quote]

You honestly think teams would give up valuable assets to get Julius Randle at 19 million a year? I doubt any team would even take him in a salary dump let alone give up value.

What "counting stats"? He's an undersized big who's a turnover machine, can't stretch the floor and is an awful defender. He's a bad fit on most teams. Do you think its a coincidence every Knick fan who watches closely wants him traded? Ideally he's a backup big but he has negative value currently.
Donavon Mitchell asked about relationship with Gobert  
nygiants16 : 7/2/2020 4:11 pm : link
"right now, we are good"
NBA closing in on a second bubble  
nygiants16 : 7/2/2020 4:43 pm : link
in september for the 8 teams not going to orlando, training camps and games...awesome for Knicks with young players and new coach
Jared Harper’s time to shine.  
bceagle05 : 7/2/2020 5:05 pm : link
Too bad our first rounders won’t be in the mix, but I’ll take it.
RE: Jared Harper’s time to shine.  
nygiants16 : 7/2/2020 5:45 pm : link
In comment 14928067 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
Too bad our first rounders won’t be in the mix, but I’ll take it.


he is a free agent..

Knicks not interested because they have a bunch of pending free agents
RE: RE: RE: I don’t subscribe to The Athletic, but a highlight from Vorkunov...  
Anakim : 7/2/2020 5:49 pm : link
In comment 14928013 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
In comment 14928012 Anakim said:


Quote:


My friend is better :)


Hope he lands somewhere in the league - I folllow him on social media and enjoy his breakdowns.


I have confidence that he will
Knicms interviewed  
nygiants16 : 7/2/2020 6:49 pm : link
Jason kidd and will bardy via video conference call today
RE: Stop signing good but not great players  
Optimus-NY : 7/3/2020 12:00 am : link
In comment 14927393 90.Cal said:
Quote:
Go young and suck more, see if R.J. Barrett can develop into a good player.. go the 76ers route the next 5 years and give yourself a chance to draft a star or two.. the only way.


I agree, but the mongoes on this site wanna go all-in for a try-hard like FVV.
its not the only way...  
Italianju : 7/3/2020 12:45 pm : link
also your dying to be the sixers? The 6 seed in the east, capped out with a roster of Embiid, simmons and Tobias/Horford? And they are one of the better success stories of the "Just suck and pick early". Who are these teams that have done that in the last decade and succeeded? The Lakers had early picks they turned into AD, but if lebron doesnt sign there it doesnt work. PHI i guess, but again they are like the best success story.

The good teams are drafting stars in the late lottery (Or later). Or they got somebody to sign (lebron, Kawhi, etc..) and they turned some lottery pick guys into another star.
The tanking strategy is dumb and highly unlikely to work.  
Strahan91 : 7/3/2020 1:21 pm : link
I'm not sure why it keeps being brought up. The only way it makes sense is if you believe that the Knicks are a complete lost cause and their only chance at ever becoming relevant again is if they happen to win the lottery in a year where a transcendent talent is the prize. Maybe that's the case but you'll likely be waiting a long time for it to pay off.

Consider that if Embiid didn't need surgery on his foot ahead of the draft in 2014, Philly winds up with Jabari Parker or Andrew Wiggins and the whole experiment is a total bust.

In those days, the worst team had a 25% chance of getting the top pick and a ~64% chance at a top 3 pick and even still Philly was 4/4 in getting into the top 3 despite only having the best lottery odds in one of those seasons. So even if they had been the absolute worst team in all of those years (which they weren't) they still would've outperformed the odds and yet, they're still not a legit title contender.

Now being the worst team only gives you a 14% chance at a top pick and a ~40% chance at a top 3 pick. Historically here's something like a ~20% chance of drafting a HOFer with the #1 pick or 1 in every five #1 overall picks. All of that is to say -- you need some serious luck for this strategy to pay off in any reasonable timeframe.
RE: The  
djm : 7/3/2020 3:33 pm : link
In comment 14927489 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
Knicks are going to be bad (win-loss) whether they add FVV or not. Let's not pretend if they add him they suddenly are picking 17th next year.


If they add FVV and trade for a star they won’t be bad.
I don’t understand this mentality  
djm : 7/3/2020 3:42 pm : link
That signing a guy like FVV means we’re “all in” and that’s that, we’re doomed or locked in to a low ceiling mid floor team for the rest of time. Why is every move treated with such finality? Why can’t we become a decent team over the next 2 years and go from there? Where is it written in stone that a team can’t grow from one era to the next? Go look at teams like the early 90s spurs or mavs or many others. They weren’t finished products until they finally became good enough to win a title or two. Same with the Miami heat. Those Miami teams in the 90s didn’t even resemble the teams that won titles in the 2000s did they?

Why can’t we believe that a decent knicks team in 2020-2021 turns into a beter team in 2022 but the 2023 elite knicks consist of a different core of star power? Here’s the thing, you CAN progress while maintaining a competitive team. You don’t have to be terrible to become elite, matter of fact there’s evidence that says you can’t.
Oladipo sitting out  
nygiants16 : 7/3/2020 3:54 pm : link
..
RE: I don’t understand this mentality  
bceagle05 : 7/3/2020 4:17 pm : link
In comment 14928441 djm said:
Quote:
That signing a guy like FVV means we’re “all in” and that’s that, we’re doomed or locked in to a low ceiling mid floor team for the rest of time. Why is every move treated with such finality? Why can’t we become a decent team over the next 2 years and go from there? Where is it written in stone that a team can’t grow from one era to the next?

Well said. The Knicks can be a destination again - I don’t buy the notion that Dolan makes it impossible, as much as I dislike the guy. No reason they can’t build a good team and transition to a great team.
RE: RE: I don’t understand this mentality  
nygiants16 : 7/3/2020 4:33 pm : link
In comment 14928455 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
In comment 14928441 djm said:


Quote:


That signing a guy like FVV means we’re “all in” and that’s that, we’re doomed or locked in to a low ceiling mid floor team for the rest of time. Why is every move treated with such finality? Why can’t we become a decent team over the next 2 years and go from there? Where is it written in stone that a team can’t grow from one era to the next?


Well said. The Knicks can be a destination again - I don’t buy the notion that Dolan makes it impossible, as much as I dislike the guy. No reason they can’t build a good team and transition to a great team.


I dont know how people do not understand this...

A place is only a destination if you have good players and a winning culture..
I remember Jared Dudley admitting  
bceagle05 : 7/3/2020 4:39 pm : link
that the star players who went to Brooklyn would go to the Knicks if we’d get out of our own way. It’s up to the Knicks to finally get something built.
Every time Knicks have gone star hunting  
nygiants16 : 7/3/2020 4:41 pm : link
they have been trash, you cant be trash and expect a star to come to your team..
I mean look I get it  
djm : 7/3/2020 7:31 pm : link
I get wanting the back to back legendary lotto picks ala shaq and penny or drafting excellence 3 years in a row resulting in the hof legendary team, but good luck hitting on that methodology. It’s next to impossible and it all but depends on deliberate tanking. This method is literally rooted in failure....I wonder how it turns out in the end.
Berman had some interesting tidbits  
nygiants16 : 7/4/2020 4:20 pm : link
If Lillard requests a trade be expects Knicms and lakers to be where he wants to go..

Then the obvious, he expects the knicks to go after booker
RE: Berman had some interesting tidbits  
Anakim : 7/4/2020 4:23 pm : link
In comment 14928807 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
If Lillard requests a trade be expects Knicms and lakers to be where he wants to go..

Then the obvious, he expects the knicks to go after booker


Gotta think Barrett and/or Mitch will be involved in any deal, along with the first rounders.
RE: RE: Berman had some interesting tidbits  
Jon in NYC : 7/4/2020 4:55 pm : link
In comment 14928808 Anakim said:
Quote:
In comment 14928807 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


If Lillard requests a trade be expects Knicms and lakers to be where he wants to go..

Then the obvious, he expects the knicks to go after booker



Gotta think Barrett and/or Mitch will be involved in any deal, along with the first rounders.


I'd happily move Barrett and all non Knick firsts for Booker.
Hard to envision this one happening anytime soon...  
bceagle05 : 7/4/2020 5:06 pm : link
Booker’s under contract another four years and the Suns have Ayton so they won’t want Mitch. If Donovan Mitchell signs his max extension this offseason, as expected, we’ll have to set our sights lower for the time being.
RE: Hard to envision this one happening anytime soon...  
nygiants16 : 7/4/2020 5:14 pm : link
In comment 14928821 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
Booker’s under contract another four years and the Suns have Ayton so they won’t want Mitch. If Donovan Mitchell signs his max extension this offseason, as expected, we’ll have to set our sights lower for the time being.


Booker will take every asset and that still might not br enough..

Mitchell if he demands a trade there is a possibility they cave
Yeah, Mitchell is the one we have to convince.  
bceagle05 : 7/4/2020 5:22 pm : link
Hopefully Rose and Wes are doing some ace tampering.
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