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NFT: 157 years ago today

section125 : 7/3/2020 7:02 am
is the 3rd and final day of the battle of Gettysburg. In the West, Vicksburg will surrender to US Grant in the early morning hours of July 4th, although negotiations were basically finished on the 3rd, also. (You could basically say July 3rd 1863 was the most momentous day of the Civil War.)

FWIW American Battlefield Trust has been running short videos on YouTube at the various battle sites at Gettysburg each day explaining the battles at all those sites for each day of the battle.
certainly makes the high water mark of the Confederacy  
Giantsfan79 : 7/3/2020 7:15 am : link
it was all downhill for them after this date.
RE: certainly makes the high water mark of the Confederacy  
section125 : 7/3/2020 7:18 am : link
In comment 14928247 Giantsfan79 said:
Quote:
it was all downhill for them after this date.


Either that or Chancellorsville two months prior with the death of Stonewall Jackson.
Seven score  
Big Al : 7/3/2020 7:21 am : link
and 17 years ago.
RE: Seven score  
section125 : 7/3/2020 7:29 am : link
In comment 14928250 Big Al said:
Quote:
and 17 years ago.


Wait, what? Nicely done, sir! Do you own a stovepipe hat?
RE: RE: certainly makes the high water mark of the Confederacy  
Darth Paul : 7/3/2020 8:38 am : link
In comment 14928248 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14928247 Giantsfan79 said:


Quote:


it was all downhill for them after this date.



Either that or Chancellorsville two months prior with the death of Stonewall Jackson.


Agree, Jackson's death was the downfall. I believe he would have made the difference at Gettysburg.

Things would have been different, if Lee prevailed at Gettysburg, but Grant "winning the Mississippi" was very significant.

In the end Grant would have still won, he did not give a f***.
Vicksburg  
M.S. : 7/3/2020 9:03 am : link

So much more a strategic victory than Gettysburg.

Even if by some miracle Lee had broken the middle of the Union line on Day 3, it would have been at most a tactical victory, if even that.

As for the Union victory at Gettysburg, it would have been more than just a tactical victory had General Meade screwed up his courage and thrown his entire army en masse against Lee's retreating army.

As for the strategic victory at Vicksburg, it was essentially the culmination of General Winfield Scott's lethal Anaconda Plan.
You might want to cut Meade some slack  
HomerJones45 : 7/3/2020 9:53 am : link
Meade, the "old snapping turtle" was a good commander. (Grant thought Sherman and Meade the best two large army commanders in the Union army). He had been commander of the AoP for a whole 3 days when the battle started having been appointed when the AoNV was already marching into Maryland. The AoP lost 20,000 men at Gettysburg and just as importantly, 3 corp commanders, including his best two: Reynolds who was killed and Hancock who was badly wounded.
Vicksburg  
ColHowPepper : 7/3/2020 10:19 am : link
To say it was 'the culmination of [Gen. Scott's] Anaconda Plan' may be apt at one level, but it ignores Grant's tactical genius relative to the circumstances of opposed forces in place in cutting off and laying ~ seven week siege to the Confederate stronghold, by water and by land. He did this while defeating a Confederate force attempting to relieve the siege from the East. Grant permitted Pemberton's officers and troops to leave with their sidearms and horses, characteristic of Grant to show 'charity' in victory. Chernow's description of the Battle of Vicksburg is memorable in its detail and strategic importance, and a most significant step toward Grant become full Lt. General of all Union forces within ~ six months (?).
RE: You might want to cut Meade some slack  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 7/3/2020 11:46 am : link
In comment 14928296 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
Meade, the "old snapping turtle" was a good commander. (Grant thought Sherman and Meade the best two large army commanders in the Union army). He had been commander of the AoP for a whole 3 days when the battle started having been appointed when the AoNV was already marching into Maryland. The AoP lost 20,000 men at Gettysburg and just as importantly, 3 corp commanders, including his best two: Reynolds who was killed and Hancock who was badly wounded.


You are correct, Meade gets short-changed big time on Gettysburg. Much of the history of the Civil War was impacted (for better and worse) by generals who were good at promoting themselves in the press both during and after the war.
Eric- very much agree on Meade  
Dave on the UWS : 7/3/2020 12:29 pm : link
If I was in his shoes, 3 days in command, two best corp commanders out of action, I would make the conservative decision and not pursue- which is what he did. History is very unjust in judging him I think.
He even got disrespected in the movie "Gettysburg"  
Dave on the UWS : 7/3/2020 12:31 pm : link
Richard Anderson gets about 2 seconds of screen time as Meade!
RE: RE: You might want to cut Meade some slack  
M.S. : 7/3/2020 12:56 pm : link
In comment 14928331 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14928296 HomerJones45 said:


Quote:


Meade, the "old snapping turtle" was a good commander. (Grant thought Sherman and Meade the best two large army commanders in the Union army). He had been commander of the AoP for a whole 3 days when the battle started having been appointed when the AoNV was already marching into Maryland. The AoP lost 20,000 men at Gettysburg and just as importantly, 3 corp commanders, including his best two: Reynolds who was killed and Hancock who was badly wounded.



You are correct, Meade gets short-changed big time on Gettysburg. Much of the history of the Civil War was impacted (for better and worse) by generals who were good at promoting themselves in the press both during and after the war.

General Meade certainly deserves the victory at Gettysburg, but in the end, was it really his battle?

Wasn't it the cavalryman, John Buford, who took one hard look at the town and was mightily impressed by the intersection of several key roads that radiated outward from Gettysburg like so many spokes of a wheel.

If ever there was a marshalling yard for the General Lee to call in his badly separated Confederate army corps, then Gettysburg was it.

John Buford anticipated the event in a flash, and over the next three sweltering days in early July, the two sides gave birth to quite a few young widows, orphans and grieving parents.
The Killer Angels will  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 7/3/2020 4:49 pm : link
forever be one of my favorite books.
Meade was grossly underrated.  
section125 : 7/3/2020 6:07 pm : link
He did a masterful job plugging holes and covering for Sickles eff up, covering Culp's Hill and all of his internal communications between the lines. Chasing Lee was probably not a smart thing. Lee was tremendous at defensive fighting. This was three hard days of fighting with huge casualties and exhausting fighting. Not sure the AoP had much left.

Buford did a fantastic job, delaying the Rebs and allowing Howard to hold the high ground. Reynolds loss was huge, but Hancock was tactically sound when Meade assigned him control of the 3rd after Sickles fell and most of the 5th on July 2nd.

Back to Meade, 3 days after his assignment as Commanding General he was able to seize and hold the high ground, defeat Bobby Lee at his game and Longstreet thoroughly. Grant was smart to leave Meade as Commander of the AoP.
I DID NOT Mean that  
section125 : 7/3/2020 6:11 pm : link
Sickles was at Culp's Hill - but that Meade was able to cover Culp's Hill, while defeating Hill and Longstreet after Sickles Eff up at the Peach Orchid and the Wheat Field....

Sorry
Wow ....  
short lease : 7/4/2020 2:52 am : link

seems like yesterday.
I think General Lee once said that George Meade  
M.S. : 7/4/2020 3:05 pm : link

Would not make a mistake on his front, which I suppose is a pretty high compliment.

The Army of the Potomac had an amazing chance to bag Robert E. Lee's army after Antietam, but the Union forces were regrettably led by General McClellan.

The second chance was right after Gettysburg when the Army of Northern Virginia was up against the Potomac River, which was nearly impassable due to heavy rains.

True, the opportunity wasn't as good as at Antietam, but the opportunity nevertheless presented itself and as fate would have it General Meade did not grab fortune by the forelock.
RE: I think General Lee once said that George Meade  
section125 : 7/4/2020 5:27 pm : link
In comment 14928784 M.S. said:
Quote:

Would not make a mistake on his front, which I suppose is a pretty high compliment.

The Army of the Potomac had an amazing chance to bag Robert E. Lee's army after Antietam, but the Union forces were regrettably led by General McClellan.

The second chance was right after Gettysburg when the Army of Northern Virginia was up against the Potomac River, which was nearly impassable due to heavy rains.

True, the opportunity wasn't as good as at Antietam, but the opportunity nevertheless presented itself and as fate would have it General Meade did not grab fortune by the forelock.


Yeah, McClellan was talked out of it by another general, but he was prone to indecisiveness.

Now Meade did have a chance, but remember they were beat up very badly. He lost Reynolds to death and Hancock to being shot in the hip on Picket's charge, his two best generals (and of course Dan Sickles lost a leg!). Yes Lee probably lost more senior Officers to death and injury, but Bobby Lee and Longstreet were masters at the defensive stand. To reorganize and attack Lee without Hancock and Reynolds would have been a tough call. I believe Grant would have attacked immediately, but I also think Grant was a better natural leader than Meade and he was bolder, more willing to proceed hell bent.
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