I'm no expert, but ya gotta think from a business perspective you can't lose. Fans aren't going to abandon the franchise. If they still want to identify their team as the Redskins, have at it. You rebrand the whole fuckin thing. If you want to get real crazy you can even change the color scheme. Or dont. Point is, if you want to wear a skins jersey that old Gus ferrotte isnt it any longer. Who's not going to buy a new hat, sweatshirt, etc. No one's shitting on you anymore. Just don't fuck up the rebranding I guess, which isn't necessarily a given. But they'll go with some cliche bullshit like DC franchises always do. Except the wizards. That's a cool name. Everything doesn't always have to be so on the fuckin nose.
Actually Dan Snyder will have to get approval and permission from a small but intense riotous mob in his selection of a new team name.
Otherwise the protests and rioting will start anew against the rebranded name.
FedEx, the business with the naming rights to the stadium, Pepsi, the official soft drink of the NFL, and Nike, the official jersey manufacturer all want them to do it. Seems almost impossible for them to ignore these requests given the amount of $ involved and importance of all 3 sponsors.
Actually Dan Snyder will have to get approval and permission from a small but intense riotous mob in his selection of a new team name.
Otherwise the protests and rioting will start anew against the rebranded name.
Sure, or he can simply name his business something that doesn't isolate a group of people that were brutalized.
I'm pretty indifferent on this (demanding name changes), but the reactions to it are strange. This isn't something that's been requested for the first time in 2020 - its been going on for years and he's been avoiding it for years.
against this nonsense but if they must wouldn't Hogskins be a good fit? Can still say the Skins it's already built into the team history with the Hogs. Fans dress up like it etc etc
I still like the picture of the Indian on the helmet
It still preserves the homage to the tribal people.
As racist as the term Redskins may or may not be to some, it was certainly never intended to be racist. It just may have been ignorantly created. So don't wipe the entire tradition and nod to that culture away.
against this nonsense but if they must wouldn't Hogskins be a good fit? Can still say the Skins it's already built into the team history with the Hogs. Fans dress up like it etc etc
No way ... the Harry Potter brigade would say it’s too close to Hogwarts, the lawyers for Mr Wolf would say it’s derogatory to the memory of the one who couldn’t blow down the brick house and ... not to mention hog is close to pork which is offensive to some religious sects. You see, once you start listening to some nonsense, you have to listen to it all.
The ex-owner of the Washington team, the person who came up with the name, was a notorious racist, resisting for years the integration of black players in the league. I believe that owner is being removed from the ring of honor.
It is a tarnished legacy and it won’t hurt a bit to change the name and move on...besides, the guys can still be hogs...
It still preserves the homage to the tribal people.
As racist as the term Redskins may or may not be to some, it was certainly never intended to be racist. It just may have been ignorantly created. So don't wipe the entire tradition and nod to that culture away.
George Preston Marshall was a notorious racist and renamed the Braves to the Redskins to capitalize upon playing in Fenway with the Red Sox and exploit the fad in that period of time, lead by Jim Thorpe and things like the Carlisle Indian Football group. He went as far as hiring a person impersonating a Native (William Henry "Lone Star" Dietz) and doing the equivalent of a "redskin minstrel show" during games - complete with having his HC wear the ceremonial head garb and war paint.
This is the same person that required Dixie played before the National Anthem at games, refused to integrate until he was forced to (by having his new stadium location get blocked) and left a significant sum of his fortunes to be setup specifically to fight racial integration.
Argue to what degree the term "Redskin" is filled with the same vitriol and hatred that other racial epitaphs are, but never confuse that the organization playing in DC was at the forefront of racist policy and practices for nearly 4 decades and used the branding to cash in and exploit a fad. You're calling back to something that simply isn't there.
There was no culture in that organization from 1933 to the mid-60s and anything Snyder can do to distance himself that much further from a shit stain on history like GPM is a good thing.
RE: Washington Warriors...leave all logos, colors, uniforms the same.
I'll bet that's Snyder's initial thoughts on a re-brand.
If I had to guess, this is the way it goes. The Redskins logo itself isn’t offensive like the Cleveland Indians logo was, although some will still have a problem with it.
It still preserves the homage to the tribal people.
As racist as the term Redskins may or may not be to some, it was certainly never intended to be racist. It just may have been ignorantly created. So don't wipe the entire tradition and nod to that culture away.
If he changes it, it would be foolish beyond belief to come anywhere close to a subset of people’s. He should walk as far away as he can. Name it the FedExers
offensive nickname is the biggest fucking no-brainer in the American business/political landscape. It boggles the mind how it could still be in place- how it wasn't changed 20 years ago.
The only explanation for Daniel Snyder keeping that name in place must be that he's some combination of a massive troll/ sociopath prone to self-harm/ bumbling idiot of historical proportions.
that, as everyone knows, Washington was the last team to employ black players. It was so bad that in 1961, RFK threatened to revoke the team's lease in their stadium unless they got with the times. With their arms twisted, Washington used the top pick in the draft to take Ernie Davis... but Davis refused to play for DC because it was such a racist, threatening shithole and forced a trade to CLE.
Another great tale from the annals of the "8 decades of bravery, pride and respect."
in your logo- real or imagined- if it represents some idealized or stylized minority culture. That's offensive objectification.
IMO, a tomahawk is not as bad. But if you will use a specific artifact to symbolize the spirit of your squad, you must tread carefully and make an effort to represent authenticity.
Well done. As for others' suggestion of Warriors: despite its superficial appeal, in this context it could easily be viewed as derogatory for linking indigenous people with war. Not a good idea.
1) I always thought "Hogs" would be a good name for them to change to. If you are going to change your name why not pay tribute to something in your teams history. Also Washington Hogs if a good name to represent some people who work in that city. D.C Hogs
2) I never realized til just now the braid in the logo looks like laces on a football. Is that by design? This is like the first time you see the arrow in Fedex
And just change the logo. Same type of scheme but without the racial part of it
Until he’s accused of appropriation. He should get rid of the current name but I think he’s an idiot if he tries to keep the same theme.
People don't accuse the Braves, Seminoles, or Blackhawks of appropriation. Not sure why you think people would complain about Tomahawks.
They can basically choose any name that isn't/wasn't a slur. Name it after a tribe. Name it after a Native American object.
I personally never gave a shit about the name, but the people whining about it in this thread as if it's some majorly impactful "sign of the times" are being such crybabies. I mean like, St Johns did this a long time ago.
The only Native American Sports-ish thing I think is way over the line is the Cleveland Indian's Chief Wahoo or whatever they call him. That shit is dumb as fuck and should have been canned years ago (maybe it was, I don't really follow baseball). If that was a caricature of a black man, it'd have been gone a long time ago.
in your logo- real or imagined- if it represents some idealized or stylized minority culture. That's offensive objectification.
IMO, a tomahawk is not as bad. But if you will use a specific artifact to symbolize the spirit of your squad, you must tread carefully and make an effort to represent authenticity.
I don't think the Blackhawks or Redskins logos are appropriation. The football team itself does not have a race or anything.
And even better all these hedge funds and investment managers can take credit for their social consciousness without having to hire one more minority, elevate anyone to the executive suite or invest another dollar In a minority community or ten cents in a reservation that doesn’t have a casino monopoly.
Of course Snyder will change the name. It costs him nothing, he will have a merch bonanza, he can still run his business exactly as he wishes and the very easily distracted will move on to another meaningless “offensive objectification”. Personally, I suggest Mario, Luigi and their offensive accents.
Just think of all the new gear all the fans will have to buy once they change the name and logo!$!$!$!$!$!$ No need to give a shit here or solve any native American problems that exist. More importantly, he can virtue signal with a heartfelt press conference. It will be a bonanza and the fans will buy into it (and buy the new gear). He was in the marketing business. Things are looking up for ol' Dan.
And even better all these hedge funds and investment managers can take credit for their social consciousness without having to hire one more minority, elevate anyone to the executive suite or invest another dollar In a minority community or ten cents in a reservation that doesn’t have a casino monopoly.
Of course Snyder will change the name. It costs him nothing, he will have a merch bonanza, he can still run his business exactly as he wishes and the very easily distracted will move on to another meaningless “offensive objectification”. Personally, I suggest Mario, Luigi and their offensive accents.
Or what you said.
Upon further thought, I do wish this would happen.
The name of the Washington NFL team is literally a slur against Native Americans. Eventually, it's going to have to change.
The best time to change the name is ten years ago, but the second best time is right now. If Snyder is smart, he'll get out in front of this, own it and turn it into a positive.
Much better to do that than be dragged, kicking and screaming, into the 21st century.
That makes them look bad, so I hope this drags out and hurts the franchise.
In all seriousness, it would be really easy for them to just take the Red out of their name and go with just the Skins. Its what everyone refers to them as anyway and it could also refer to hogskins or, more relevant to football, the pigskins.
Wouldn’t surprise me if he changed it to something more racist just out of spite.
I think he’s operated that way for a while but I’m guessing the NFL is putting the full court press on him right now and I’m not sure what the repercussions will be if he doesn’t agree to change. He’s at the end of his leash.
is to let each team negotiate contacts with clothing companies to make their gear. This one for all is BS. Now you have Nike holding the whole organization hostage. Watch how quick Nike would shut their mouth!
but it is fucking stupid. Sorry if that hurts any of the snowflakes feelings on this thread.
Agreed. Are we going to have to rename our team because we offend tall people? I don’t think the team name is meant to be racist, but if people are that upset about it fine. When I watch historic films I honestly don’t recall anyone using the term “redskin” toward Native Americans. They use other terms I’m not going to write because they are wrong, but I don’t remember that name being used.
but it is fucking stupid. Sorry if that hurts any of the snowflakes feelings on this thread.
Agreed. Are we going to have to rename our team because we offend tall people? I don’t think the team name is meant to be racist, but if people are that upset about it fine. When I watch historic films I honestly don’t recall anyone using the term “redskin” toward Native Americans. They use other terms I’m not going to write because they are wrong, but I don’t remember that name being used.
Interesting take. Do you know who the founder of the team was? It might tell you a lot about whether the team name was meant to be racist.
but it is fucking stupid. Sorry if that hurts any of the snowflakes feelings on this thread.
Agreed. Are we going to have to rename our team because we offend tall people? I don’t think the team name is meant to be racist, but if people are that upset about it fine. When I watch historic films I honestly don’t recall anyone using the term “redskin” toward Native Americans. They use other terms I’m not going to write because they are wrong, but I don’t remember that name being used.
Uh, based on Uconns previous posts, I don't think he was agreeing with you.
he was saying he personally is not offended, but the people throwing tantrums on this thread are fucking snowflakes.
And quite frankly, you are. Here's a novel fucking thought: how about we don't name any team anything that's [color]skin.
If you've seen my posts, it's pretty fucking obvious I was born here, so as a 2nd gen Indian-American (like from India), I'd wouldn't root for a fucking team called the "Brownskins" with a turban and/or red dot on his forehead.
It's not weakness to say "yeah, change it" with regards to a football team name if it makes your FELLOW AMERICANS not feel objectified (and at that, one of our rivals!).
This really isn't hard to follow - Blackhawks, Seminoles, are tribes. Nobody gives a shit.
whiteskins, blackskins, foreskins, redskins, orangeskins, yellowskins -- its fucking stupid. This isn't 1933 or whatever.
94-91% of Native Americans see it as a celebration of their history, like normal people do and that’s how it was intended.
The rest are triggered white leftist douchebags who never had a job that didn’t involve bitching for a living and are desperately attempting to vent off all the white guilt and self-loathing the faculty lounges of universities nationwide pounded into them.
94-91% of Native Americans see it as a celebration of their history, like normal people do and that’s how it was intended.
The rest are triggered white leftist douchebags who never had a job that didn’t involve bitching for a living and are desperately attempting to vent off all the white guilt and self-loathing the faculty lounges of universities nationwide pounded into them.
Call them the Washington Deep Staters.
If those numbers are correct (they probably are - I would not be surprised) .... that is sad. I want to say more but, I do not want to risk getting to political.
Glad we have a name that should not be offensive to anyone. Unless (50 years? from now) .... people who are 6'4", 6'6", 7 feet tall decide that the term "Giants" is derogatory?
The ex-owner of the Washington team, the person who came up with the name, was a notorious racist, resisting for years the integration of black players in the league. I believe that owner is being removed from the ring of honor.
It is a tarnished legacy and it won’t hurt a bit to change the name and move on...besides, the guys can still be hogs...
If I was a racist and owned a team - I am not sure I would name the team after a group of people I felt superior to? Did he do it as a Joke? I don't think so ... I really think he thought the "Indians" were a formidable bunch and were great warriors. He just could not see 100 years into the PC future and that the term "Redskins" would be offensive to 9% of indigenous people. (The 9% number came from a previous post which I assume is true?)
Found this on Wiki - for what it is worth ....
"The team originated as the Boston Braves, based in Boston, Massachusetts, in 1932, under the ownership of George Preston Marshall.[9] At the time the team played in Braves Field, home of the Boston Braves baseball team in the National League. The following year, the club moved to Fenway Park, home of the American League's Boston Red Sox, whereupon owners changed the team's name to "Boston Redskins"; to round out the change, Marshall hired William Henry "Lone Star" Dietz, who was thought to be part Sioux, as the team's head coach.[10] However, the team had difficulty drawing fans as Boston was not much of a football town at the time."
RE: RE: I still like the picture of the Indian on the helmet
It still preserves the homage to the tribal people.
As racist as the term Redskins may or may not be to some, it was certainly never intended to be racist. It just may have been ignorantly created. So don't wipe the entire tradition and nod to that culture away.
George Preston Marshall was a notorious racist and renamed the Braves to the Redskins to capitalize upon playing in Fenway with the Red Sox and exploit the fad in that period of time, lead by Jim Thorpe and things like the Carlisle Indian Football group. He went as far as hiring a person impersonating a Native (William Henry "Lone Star" Dietz) and doing the equivalent of a "redskin minstrel show" during games - complete with having his HC wear the ceremonial head garb and war paint.
This is the same person that required Dixie played before the National Anthem at games, refused to integrate until he was forced to (by having his new stadium location get blocked) and left a significant sum of his fortunes to be setup specifically to fight racial integration.
Argue to what degree the term "Redskin" is filled with the same vitriol and hatred that other racial epitaphs are, but never confuse that the organization playing in DC was at the forefront of racist policy and practices for nearly 4 decades and used the branding to cash in and exploit a fad. You're calling back to something that simply isn't there.
There was no culture in that organization from 1933 to the mid-60s and anything Snyder can do to distance himself that much further from a shit stain on history like GPM is a good thing.
Should have read this before I posted last .... 80 posts on the franchise from Washington. A first? A last - hopefully?
The Red Mesa High School on the Navajo reservation on Highway 160 in AZ call themselves the "Redskins" and use the same logo as the Washington Redskins. I have a photo of the school sign but can't figure out how to post it here. Also, when I did a tour of Canyon De Chelly in AZ in 2014, my Navajo guide was a huge Denver Broncos fan. When I asked him what his people thought of the use of "Redskins", his exact words---"Nobody gives a shit"
--Why is it so difficult for some on BBI to avoid violating the terms of service? Your stupidity has ruined it for the rest of us. And speaking of your stupidity, why should anyone believe you have an intelligent thought in your head if you can't even follow a simple set of rules?
--I think calling them Indians is even more offensive. And calling them American Indians is just plain stupid. They are Native Americans whose ancestry can be traced to several nations (Sioux, Navajo, Algonquin, etc). They have absolutely nothing to do with India or Indians. If the Washington Redskins should change their name, so should the Cleveland Indians.
--I don't have a strong opinion on whether or not changing the name is the "right" thing to do, but at this point, it's the wise thing to do.
--The new name should be the Washington Native Americans.
--Why is it so difficult for some on BBI to avoid violating the terms of service? Your stupidity has ruined it for the rest of us. And speaking of your stupidity, why should anyone believe you have an intelligent thought in your head if you can't even follow a simple set of rules?
--I think calling them Indians is even more offensive. And calling them American Indians is just plain stupid. They are Native Americans whose ancestry can be traced to several nations (Sioux, Navajo, Algonquin, etc). They have absolutely nothing to do with India or Indians. If the Washington Redskins should change their name, so should the Cleveland Indians.
--I don't have a strong opinion on whether or not changing the name is the "right" thing to do, but at this point, it's the wise thing to do.
--The new name should be the Washington Native Americans.
How about just Americans?
I totally disagree with you on the Indians. Redskins was always a derogatory term, The Cleveland caricature is asinine. I cannot and do not see why the name "Indians" is a problem.
And in actuality, there are no native Americans. The first settlers came across from Asia during the ice age when the Bering Sea was frozen and foot travel was possible.
I totally disagree with you on the Indians. Redskins was always a derogatory term, The Cleveland caricature is asinine. I cannot and do not see why the name "Indians" is a problem.[quote]They're not from India, that's why.
[quote]And in actuality, there are no native Americans. The first settlers came across from Asia during the ice age when the Bering Sea was frozen and foot travel was possible.
By that logic we're all Africans. Look at it this way: they are Native Americans because they are the people who were native to this land when the Europeans arrived and gave it the name, America.
Contrary to polls showing that relatively few Native Americans take offense at the Washington Redskins’ name, a new UC Berkeley study has found that at least half of more than 1,000 Native Americans surveyed are offended by the football team’s 87-year-old moniker and Native mascots in general.
...
The study’s findings, published in the journal of Social Psychological and Personality Science, show that the degree to which those surveyed identified as Native American influenced how offensive they found Native mascots.
Of those polled for the study, 57% who strongly identify with being Native American and 67% of those who frequently engage in tribal cultural practices were found to be deeply insulted by caricatures of Native American culture.
...
Overall, 49% of participants in the UC Berkeley study were found to strongly agree or agree that the Washington Redskins’ name is offensive, while 38% were not bothered by it. The remainder were undecided or indifferent.
However, the number of those offended rose for study participants who were heavily engaged in their native or tribal cultures (67%), young people (60%) and people with tribal affiliations such as members of federally recognized tribes (52%).
Of those polled for the study, 57% who strongly identify with being Native American and 67% of those who frequently engage in tribal cultural practices were found to be deeply insulted by caricatures of Native American culture.
A Facebook friend of mine who I worked with ten years ago strongly identifies with his Native American heritage and frequently engages in tribal cultural practices. I messaged him today asking for his feelings on the Redskins name. I'll let you know his response.
It's an opportunity to make a clean break.
Did the Redtail airmen have any special connection to Washington?
Also, calling them the Washington Americans is just so.........American. It's bland as bland can be.
Naming a team after a bird seems to be a safe bet.
I'd go with the Wahington Pigeons, as they shit everywhere they go.
RE: RE: Washington Redskins’ name, Native mascots offend more than previously
Of those polled for the study, 57% who strongly identify with being Native American and 67% of those who frequently engage in tribal cultural practices were found to be deeply insulted by caricatures of Native American culture.
A Facebook friend of mine who I worked with ten years ago strongly identifies with his Native American heritage and frequently engages in tribal cultural practices. I messaged him today asking for his feelings on the Redskins name. I'll let you know his response.
There’s a wave going on now. I wouldn’t be surprised if the numbers have risen. I think People’s feelings and opinions ride the wave and become a mass, rather than inherent, opinion.
Anyone can find a way to be offended by just about anything these days. It's all horseshit. It's just a method used to continue to divide the country. If Goodell kisses ass by playing a "black" national anthem, I'm through with NFL football. I've been an avid fan since 1971. I will miss it, but there are other things in life to enjoy. I will always love my Giant memories.
- The free market will decide, which should be quite attractive to a subset of the population
- The polling around the American Indian community’s feelings on the term and iconography sways greatly from poll to poll. A more recent UC Berkeley poll, and arguably a better constructed poll than the Post poll often referenced, shows a majority of that community is not in favor of the team name.
- Seemingly a lot of Americans in general are uncomfortable with the name
- If Snyder’s intention is to honor and promote American Indians, there are probably better ways to do it
Anyone can find a way to be offended by just about anything these days. It's all horseshit. It's just a method used to continue to divide the country. If Goodell kisses ass by playing a "black" national anthem, I'm through with NFL football. I've been an avid fan since 1971. I will miss it, but there are other things in life to enjoy. I will always love my Giant memories.
- The free market will decide, which should be quite attractive to a subset of the population
- The polling around the American Indian community’s feelings on the term and iconography sways greatly from poll to poll. A more recent UC Berkeley poll, and arguably a better constructed poll than the Post poll often referenced, shows a majority of that community is not in favor of the team name.
- Seemingly a lot of Americans in general are uncomfortable with the name
- If Snyder’s intention is to honor and promote American Indians, there are probably better ways to do it
I don’t think teams names ought to promote anything other than the team (and, perhaps, the location). But, it’s very valuable real estate. A market approach would offer naming rights. And, since it’s good enough for little leagues everywhere, it should work for the nfl. Not different from stadiums.
Anyone can find a way to be offended by just about anything these days. It's all horseshit. It's just a method used to continue to divide the country. If Goodell kisses ass by playing a "black" national anthem, I'm through with NFL football. I've been an avid fan since 1971. I will miss it, but there are other things in life to enjoy. I will always love my Giant memories.
Snyder’s commercial partners, and the investors who fund the entities are going to make this choice. This is how business works, all day, everyday, in America.
Snyder’s the one who mounted the rostrum on promoting American Indianism — he was probably better off literally never saying anything on the topic.
The name isn’t going to survive the weekend, and the franchise and the league are going to move on just fine.
I would prefer they keep the name, but if they must change I like
Warriors. I see a lot of people saying to keep the logo, but not the name, we know that is not happening. They can go back to the late 60s logo with the spear across the helmet.
One thing that is never brought up with this is that if they change their names 3/4 of the Washington teams will not have their real names, as in Bullets and Senators.
I like how someone brought up that most Native Americans are not offended and that a HS on a reservation calls themselves Redskins.
As far as the Indians changing their name too is concerned, and all Indian names is that it honors them, it doesn't demean them. Did we also name states, cities, towns, rivers, military units, and helicopters after them to demean them? Has there been another civilization out there who honors a conquered people like this?
So if all Native American names are racist and demeaning then why are the Vikings, Celtics, and Fighting Irish not? Weren't the Irish conquered and colonized as well? Weren't the Celtics the indigenous population of all the British Islands?
Anyone can find a way to be offended by just about anything these days. It's all horseshit. It's just a method used to continue to divide the country. If Goodell kisses ass by playing a "black" national anthem, I'm through with NFL football. I've been an avid fan since 1971. I will miss it, but there are other things in life to enjoy. I will always love my Giant memories.
So, you're offended that people are offended? People being offended really offends you?
Also, you're not one of those namby pamby, thin-skinned, snowflakes, but if the NFL plays a song you don't like, you're not going to watch football anymore?
Are you sure you're not just copy any pasting comments from The Onion?
what the Redskins fans think? I was reading through a lot of the comments on a thread on Extreme Skins.
It seems for the most part the skins fans (for the most part) do not want to cave to the pressure. These are the team's real paying customers. Makes the decision for Snyder that much more difficult.
Do they NET lose or gain fans due to changing the name? What is your guess?
Anyone can find a way to be offended by just about anything these days. It's all horseshit. It's just a method used to continue to divide the country. If Goodell kisses ass by playing a "black" national anthem, I'm through with NFL football. I've been an avid fan since 1971. I will miss it, but there are other things in life to enjoy. I will always love my Giant memories.
So, you're offended that people are offended? People being offended really offends you?
Also, you're not one of those namby pamby, thin-skinned, snowflakes, but if the NFL plays a song you don't like, you're not going to watch football anymore?
Are you sure you're not just copy any pasting comments from The Onion?
I had this discussion with my wife the last 2 days. Long story short, I think changing the name to the Washington Warriors (as mentioned before) could work, as they could still keep the color scheme as well as things like their alternate logos like the arrow with the feather on it (2002 throwback helmet).
Is there another indigenous tribe from the DC area that they could honor ? Washington Apaches sounds good, but I believe they are based in the southwest. Probably best they avoid anything to do with Native American themes.
Another name someone came up with a while ago was the Washington Federals. I think that could definitely work, although not sure about the logo. Cowboys vs. Federals is kind of historically fitting, no ? Also ties into the area with MLB's Nationals, as well as the NHL's Capitals.
Anyone can find a way to be offended by just about anything these days. It's all horseshit. It's just a method used to continue to divide the country. If Goodell kisses ass by playing a "black" national anthem, I'm through with NFL football. I've been an avid fan since 1971. I will miss it, but there are other things in life to enjoy. I will always love my Giant memories.
No snowflake is a term used by people with common sense to criticize those who live their life searching to be offended. Most often used toward college students but increasingly leeching into adults a well.
Nike, FedEx, etc. are undoubtedly making a transparent play to cash in on the current zeitgeist and remain relevant in a very trying period, both economically and otherwise. Their stance is a safe one and has only been made when it is clearly financially conducive to take.
The history of the logo is not some sacred artifact passed down through the ages and demonstrating a landmark moment in our collective as a society. Some shitbag racist took over a failing team in Boston and tried to leach off the Red Sox and play up on the "Indian Football" fad of the early 20th century. We're fighting over a cheap marketing trick by the NFL's biggest racist and pretending its something more than that.
The term "Redskin" is racist at worst and anachronistic at best. At least some Native Americans had begun asking for the name change as early as 1971 (documented at least) and organized protests against it started in the 1980s. Just as there isn't a monolith "Black Community", there isn't a singular voice for Natives - but it seems there is at least 40-50 years of history with at least some of that group voicing concern over its use. Rhetorically, what's the threshold for which we need to identify that a group is offended and react to that?
Outside of slippery slope logic fallacies, I fail to see how this is the hill people want to die on. Syracuse gave up the Saltine Warrior over 40 years ago. St. Johns' gave up "Red Men" 35 years ago. Chief Wahoo has been gone for 2 years. This isn't some recent phenomenon and to try and tie to it to anything specific misses the mark.
Its just financially convenient for it to be forced, which doesn't make the underlying point any less valid - it just demonstrates how things are done professionally, sadly.
Anyone can find a way to be offended by just about anything these days. It's all horseshit. It's just a method used to continue to divide the country. If Goodell kisses ass by playing a "black" national anthem, I'm through with NFL football. I've been an avid fan since 1971. I will miss it, but there are other things in life to enjoy. I will always love my Giant memories.
Stop watching now. Playing another song before games offends you that much? It's crazy what a snowflake you are.
And no, you know god damn well who goes out of his way to divide the country, and it isn't people trying to change the Redskins name.
RE: Why are middle-class, middle-aged white men so offended by change?
Warriors. I see a lot of people saying to keep the logo, but not the name, we know that is not happening. They can go back to the late 60s logo with the spear across the helmet.
One thing that is never brought up with this is that if they change their names 3/4 of the Washington teams will not have their real names, as in Bullets and Senators.
I like how someone brought up that most Native Americans are not offended and that a HS on a reservation calls themselves Redskins.
As far as the Indians changing their name too is concerned, and all Indian names is that it honors them, it doesn't demean them. Did we also name states, cities, towns, rivers, military units, and helicopters after them to demean them? Has there been another civilization out there who honors a conquered people like this?
So if all Native American names are racist and demeaning then why are the Vikings, Celtics, and Fighting Irish not? Weren't the Irish conquered and colonized as well? Weren't the Celtics the indigenous population of all the British Islands?
This is a strawman. People are talking about the name Redskins, not all Native American based names.
Anyone can find a way to be offended by just about anything these days. It's all horseshit. It's just a method used to continue to divide the country. If Goodell kisses ass by playing a "black" national anthem, I'm through with NFL football. I've been an avid fan since 1971. I will miss it, but there are other things in life to enjoy. I will always love my Giant memories.
So, you're offended that people are offended? People being offended really offends you?
Also, you're not one of those namby pamby, thin-skinned, snowflakes, but if the NFL plays a song you don't like, you're not going to watch football anymore?
Are you sure you're not just copy any pasting comments from The Onion?
I'm pretty sure when corporate sponsors pull out, it isn't some attempt to divide the nation. Quite the opposite in fact, the tide has turned so much that these corporations feel safe in making "their stand" that the good pub will massively outweigh the bad pub. This is such an odd hill to die on.
Imagine calling people thin skinned and then refusing to watch something you got enjoyment out of for years and even take time to post on forums about it because of something as innocuous as a name change. The Giants could change their name to the NY FedEx Ground and Pounds and I could literally give a shit. It's a name. I take more offense to the rule changes to the game in order to cater to the fantasy contingent. There are ways to to boost scoring without making it look gamed - see what the XFL did.
This is a strawman. People are talking about the name Redskins, not all Native American based names.
It isn't actually a strawman though. Link - ( New Window )
And the Blackhawks? Braves? Seminoles?
It's not like theres not an obvious explanation for this - Cleveland caught a lot of flak for their awful, awful Chief Wahoo, which is the impetus for them even discussing a name change.
Plus, I was talking about this thread, so yes, it was a strawman.
Anyone can find a way to be offended by just about anything these days. It's all horseshit. It's just a method used to continue to divide the country. If Goodell kisses ass by playing a "black" national anthem, I'm through with NFL football. I've been an avid fan since 1971. I will miss it, but there are other things in life to enjoy. I will always love my Giant memories.
Of those polled for the study, 57% who strongly identify with being Native American and 67% of those who frequently engage in tribal cultural practices were found to be deeply insulted by caricatures of Native American culture.
A Facebook friend of mine who I worked with ten years ago strongly identifies with his Native American heritage and frequently engages in tribal cultural practices. I messaged him today asking for his feelings on the Redskins name. I'll let you know his response.
There’s a wave going on now. I wouldn’t be surprised if the numbers have risen. I think People’s feelings and opinions ride the wave and become a mass, rather than inherent, opinion.
I heard back from him and he said he found it offensive. He is a 72-year old man and I was tempted to ask him if he'd always felt this way, but I thought that would be rude.
what the Redskins fans think? I was reading through a lot of the comments on a thread on Extreme Skins.
It seems for the most part the skins fans (for the most part) do not want to cave to the pressure. These are the team's real paying customers. Makes the decision for Snyder that much more difficult.
Do they NET lose or gain fans due to changing the name? What is your guess?
Disagree on your take on the ExtremeSkins thread, if we are talking present tense.
I see a split between those who are overtly in favor of the change and those who are resigned to it. Virtually no one wants Snyder to try to continue to hold out, which is practically impossible at this point anyway.
Not going to say Washington won't lose any fans, but it will be very few and, again, the issue of whether to change has become practically moot.
As evidence of that, ExtremeSkins has put discussion of what the new name should be on the main board and it's the hot thread.
Discussion of whether the name should change (at all) is relegated to an off-topic board and, even there, almost no one, present tense, is advocating for keeping the name.
Anyone can find a way to be offended by just about anything these days. It's all horseshit. It's just a method used to continue to divide the country. If Goodell kisses ass by playing a "black" national anthem, I'm through with NFL football. I've been an avid fan since 1971. I will miss it, but there are other things in life to enjoy. I will always love my Giant memories.
Stop watching now. Playing another song before games offends you that much? It's crazy what a snowflake you are.
And no, you know god damn well who goes out of his way to divide the country, and it isn't people trying to change the Redskins name.
I think they should just drop the Anthem before all the games in all the sports. It has outlived its' intention.
Anyone can find a way to be offended by just about anything these days. It's all horseshit. It's just a method used to continue to divide the country. If Goodell kisses ass by playing a "black" national anthem, I'm through with NFL football. I've been an avid fan since 1971. I will miss it, but there are other things in life to enjoy. I will always love my Giant memories.
Stop watching now. Playing another song before games offends you that much? It's crazy what a snowflake you are.
And no, you know god damn well who goes out of his way to divide the country, and it isn't people trying to change the Redskins name.
I think they should just drop the Anthem before all the games in all the sports. It has outlived its' intention.
+1. Too much distraction and it’s not relevant to the point of coming out to the stadium.
RE: RE: What is the demographic of a fan that will walk away?
I personally think a lot of this stuff is over the top. Serious situations where police or someone in authority abuses power or discriminates whether on basis of sex or race I get it. That's why we have laws for those as they are crimes. Of course not always properly or fairly applied and that's what has to improve.
The ideas and ideals of the Constitution, Star Spangled banner and Pledge of Allegiance are correct. It's people that are flawed and always will be. Perfection is unattainable when dealing with 350 million human beings. The USA does most things better than most nations.
Playing a separate anthem though? That seems an over sensitive over reaction which actually separates us not joins us. There isn't a racist thought or idea expressed in the song. It applies to all Americans. So why wouldn't everyone want to be included in it? All of us.
is a bit over done. How about continuing to address actual issues dealing with race in the community and the NFL?
It's like the owners are over thinking this. I consider this along the same lines as politicians kneeling while wearing kente cloth to show solidarity (Hopefully, that isn't looked at as being political...not my intention).
Wtf? Why? Just fix your shit.
Might as well go full Rollerball (Corporate Sponsorship)
And call them the "Washington Nike's". If LeBron, Nike and the NBA don't care about forced labor (Uyghurs)) in China making Nike products, I'm sure the NFL and all the other corporate sponsors aren't concerned.
on the anthem issue and the NFL is scrambling a bit to make it up to them. Oh well. Life comes at ya fast. Transparent, but who cares? I’ve always found the anthem to be unnecessary at sporting events, but putting a stop to it now would be perceived as the “take your ball and go home” solution by the league.
caveman has been saying for many years that the National Anthem does not need to be played before sports events. Also this cranky old man who hates political correctness does not understand how the Redskins name still exists. I don’t consider it a pc issue. It is a common sense issue.
The average Redskins fan isn't someone who sits in a luxury box and who went to college.
He or she is a poor person living in SE Washington or rural Virginia. This is the core of the fan base, who live and die Redskins football. And they spend their hard-earned money on Redskins gear.
You basically seem to be arguing that if someone doesn't make as much money as you or didn't go to college like you doesn't matter as much.
--Why is it so difficult for some on BBI to avoid violating the terms of service? Your stupidity has ruined it for the rest of us. And speaking of your stupidity, why should anyone believe you have an intelligent thought in your head if you can't even follow a simple set of rules?
--I think calling them Indians is even more offensive. And calling them American Indians is just plain stupid. They are Native Americans whose ancestry can be traced to several nations (Sioux, Navajo, Algonquin, etc). They have absolutely nothing to do with India or Indians. If the Washington Redskins should change their name, so should the Cleveland Indians.
--I don't have a strong opinion on whether or not changing the name is the "right" thing to do, but at this point, it's the wise thing to do.
--The new name should be the Washington Native Americans.
How about just Americans?
I totally disagree with you on the Indians. Redskins was always a derogatory term, The Cleveland caricature is asinine. I cannot and do not see why the name "Indians" is a problem.
And in actuality, there are no native Americans. The first settlers came across from Asia during the ice age when the Bering Sea was frozen and foot travel was possible.
The media goes out of it’s way to divide people. Now the NFL has and the next CBA demand might be for “a living wage” for players who apparently don’t know where the revenue comes from.
It’s getting serious. Names of deceased on the helmets or jerseys? C’mon man!
=2&thread=599100&show_all=1#14928730]14928730[/url] Sonic Youth said:
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In comment 14928665 Tark10 said:
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Anyone can find a way to be offended by just about anything these days. It's all horseshit. It's just a method used to continue to divide the country. If Goodell kisses ass by playing a "black" national anthem, I'm through with NFL football. I've been an avid fan since 1971. I will miss it, but there are other things in life to enjoy. I will always love my Giant memories.
Stop watching now. Playing another song before games offends you that much? It's crazy what a snowflake you are.
And no, you know god damn well who goes out of his way to divide the country, and it isn't people trying to change the Redskins name.
The average Redskins fan isn't someone who sits in a luxury box and who went to college.
He or she is a poor person living in SE Washington or rural Virginia. This is the core of the fan base, who live and die Redskins football. And they spend their hard-earned money on Redskins gear.
You basically seem to be arguing that if someone doesn't make as much money as you or didn't go to college like you doesn't matter as much.
I’m not talking about the average fan. I’m talking about the fans who will walk away from the franchise because of a name change. The marketers should be (an I assure you that they are) aware of the socio economic standing and spending patterns of said demo.
The average Redskins fan isn't someone who sits in a luxury box and who went to college.
He or she is a poor person living in SE Washington or rural Virginia. This is the core of the fan base, who live and die Redskins football. And they spend their hard-earned money on Redskins gear.
You basically seem to be arguing that if someone doesn't make as much money as you or didn't go to college like you doesn't matter as much.
Eric....be real here....the skins are a dead fucking franchise....they are worth what they are worth based on location only....there's only one way but up....and this would play well with the woke young DC crowd that will actually buy tickets
And yes corporations only care about how much money
To make a point, if we were to honor the owner, how about the Washington Kikes?
Before anyone goes apoplectic, I am a proud Jew who has spent most of my professional life working in the the Jewish community and my being Jewish is a key component of my identity (even more than being a Giants fan 😉).
Of course this would be offensive and 'beyond the pale'
To make a point, if we were to honor the owner, how about the Washington Kikes?
Before anyone goes apoplectic, I am a proud Jew who has spent most of my professional life working in the the Jewish community and my being Jewish is a key component of my identity (even more than being a Giants fan 😉).
Of course this would be offensive and 'beyond the pale'
To make a point, if we were to honor the owner, how about the Washington Kikes?
Before anyone goes apoplectic, I am a proud Jew who has spent most of my professional life working in the the Jewish community and my being Jewish is a key component of my identity (even more than being a Giants fan 😉).
Of course this would be offensive and 'beyond the pale'
So is the current name.
What about the Washington Jewish Mothers?
To the larger point (and I assume that is an attempt at humour, which made me crack a smile) since sometimes the term is used as a pejorative (like 'helicopter mother' for another group), I don't think it would be a good idea.
RE: Ohh no not an anthem! boycott those too...try to be more inclusive?
I personally think a lot of this stuff is over the top. Serious situations where police or someone in authority abuses power or discriminates whether on basis of sex or race I get it. That's why we have laws for those as they are crimes. Of course not always properly or fairly applied and that's what has to improve.
The ideas and ideals of the Constitution, Star Spangled banner and Pledge of Allegiance are correct. It's people that are flawed and always will be. Perfection is unattainable when dealing with 350 million human beings. The USA does most things better than most nations.
Playing a separate anthem though? That seems an over sensitive over reaction which actually separates us not joins us. There isn't a racist thought or idea expressed in the song. It applies to all Americans. So why wouldn't everyone want to be included in it? All of us.
If the constitution were simply “correct” it wouldn’t have had to be amended as many times as it has.
Unless the amendment process is part of the correctness you mean.
The average Redskins fan isn't someone who sits in a luxury box and who went to college.
He or she is a poor person living in SE Washington or rural Virginia. This is the core of the fan base, who live and die Redskins football. And they spend their hard-earned money on Redskins gear.
You basically seem to be arguing that if someone doesn't make as much money as you or didn't go to college like you doesn't matter as much.
I think you are touching on why the Redskins are now going to be changing their name - new money. These people aren’t leaving, you know it and I know it. And if a small amount of them do it will be made up by new fans who will dip their toe into a hopefully more progressive team. It will also help with sponsors who won’t want to be associated with racism.
i make a good living and refuse to spend mine on Giants tickets and memorabilia but if I did it would understand that change happens, I’m not buying ownership in anything I’m simply a fan buying a ticket to a game and some merchandise, all for entertainment purposes.
'Unless the amendment process is part of the correctness you mean.'
The current complete document with Amendments. By far the fairest and staunchest defense of equality and individuals liberties in the world. Of course applying them properly is again where human error comes into play.
The cost benefit analysis of losing some fans whose sensibilities are offended by ditching an uncomfortable team name vs. gaining new fans, selling a new suite of merchandise, and not running up against league sponsors who account directly and indirectly for the the lion’s share of revenue is pretty simple.
The contingent of fans who will be upset enough to stop being fans of the franchise over this is doesn’t sniff the blowback they’ll get if they don’t do something now.
For starting a thread on a topic the entire league and the entire nation are discussing.
Mods should put up a pinned and locked post saying the NFL anthem is off limits. Doesn’t matter if everyone from Roger to Saquon is commenting on it or the fact that it will continue to be a topic of conversation.
He thinks changing the name is stupid, sort of a bridge too far/slippery slope deal. Im on the other side of the aisle, but admittedly without much passion for the whole deal.
But we came upon an interesting question I think serves as a pretty good litmus test, and it gave him pause: would you in general conversation, say at a bar, address a native american as "Hey redskin". Probably not.
Distancing ourselves a bit from this particular issue ...
when you start layering these things..
political correctness
cost to attend games
the kneeling thing
the officiating
horrible rule changes
You lose fans and likely may not get some of them back. Nothing that has occurred over the past few years has brought new fans to the sport.
If not for fantasy football, the NFL would be in serious trouble right now.
It does not matter whether you agree with their reasons, but we have seen far too many people say they are done with the NFL. 10 years ago, we were not hearing that.
The other concern I have is many of the young kids today just are not into the NFL. When I was a kid, virtually everyone followed a team. Now, kids are into other things. Yet another reason to be concerned for the future of the league.
RE: Distancing ourselves a bit from this particular issue ...
when you start layering these things..
political correctness
cost to attend games
the kneeling thing
the officiating
horrible rule changes
You lose fans and likely may not get some of them back. Nothing that has occurred over the past few years has brought new fans to the sport.
If not for fantasy football, the NFL would be in serious trouble right now.
It does not matter whether you agree with their reasons, but we have seen far too many people say they are done with the NFL. 10 years ago, we were not hearing that.
The other concern I have is many of the young kids today just are not into the NFL. When I was a kid, virtually everyone followed a team. Now, kids are into other things. Yet another reason to be concerned for the future of the league.
Add to list more awareness of future health issues to players especially the brain.
The media goes out of it’s way to divide people. Now the NFL has and the next CBA demand might be for “a living wage” for players who apparently don’t know where the revenue comes from.
It’s getting serious. Names of deceased on the helmets or jerseys? C’mon man!
=2&thread=599100&show_all=1#14928730]14928730[/url] Sonic Youth said:
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In comment 14928665 Tark10 said:
Quote:
Anyone can find a way to be offended by just about anything these days. It's all horseshit. It's just a method used to continue to divide the country. If Goodell kisses ass by playing a "black" national anthem, I'm through with NFL football. I've been an avid fan since 1971. I will miss it, but there are other things in life to enjoy. I will always love my Giant memories.
Stop watching now. Playing another song before games offends you that much? It's crazy what a snowflake you are.
And no, you know god damn well who goes out of his way to divide the country, and it isn't people trying to change the Redskins name.
hur durrr the media durrrr. You're a fucking idiot.
RE: Distancing ourselves a bit from this particular issue ...
when you start layering these things..
political correctness
cost to attend games
the kneeling thing
the officiating
horrible rule changes
You lose fans and likely may not get some of them back. Nothing that has occurred over the past few years has brought new fans to the sport.
If not for fantasy football, the NFL would be in serious trouble right now.
It does not matter whether you agree with their reasons, but we have seen far too many people say they are done with the NFL. 10 years ago, we were not hearing that.
The other concern I have is many of the young kids today just are not into the NFL. When I was a kid, virtually everyone followed a team. Now, kids are into other things. Yet another reason to be concerned for the future of the league.
I’m pretty sure nfl revenue and profitability has continued to rise at the same time as all the things you listed.
Someone is spending more money. The NFL is in no financial danger what so ever.
RE: Was just having a good txt conversation with my brother.
He thinks changing the name is stupid, sort of a bridge too far/slippery slope deal. Im on the other side of the aisle, but admittedly without much passion for the whole deal.
But we came upon an interesting question I think serves as a pretty good litmus test, and it gave him pause: would you in general conversation, say at a bar, address a native american as "Hey redskin". Probably not.
Uh, no. Unless I am, to quote the great Vincent Gambini, in need of good ass kickin'.
Right. Im inclined to think anyone who says yes is either full of shit or openly prejudiced and spoiling for a fight. Which really tells us all we need to know about this.
At the end of the day its just the name of a sports team. How much difference does it make in your life? Which, btw, is pretty much the definition of privilege, admittedly a term I used to really chafe at. For most of us this has little to no impact on our lives, and we get to choose our level of involvement or interest. And that is most definitely a privilege. For others its an immersive reality, just one aspect of a society that has been indifferent and unintentionally ignorant at best and violently oppressive at its worst. If this small token, when combined with other efforts, can help this be a better society for everyone who lives in it...Im not a knee jerk bleeding heart progressive but for fucks sake, let it go.
RE: RE: Distancing ourselves a bit from this particular issue ...
The NFL is in great financial shape, continues to draw huge ratings, and is on the verge of truly entering the streaming era in which they will make even more money.
The lesson is the vast, vast majority of NFL fans can separate their fandom form their politics and are perfectly fine with the safety changes made to the game.
If some how the NFL pulls off a season this year, they are going to have a financial and ratings bonanza.
Is this a customer they should be concerned about losing?
They are probably old(er), the are probably not highly educated, they are probably not that wealthy.
Be careful of your bigotry here.
Not bigotry, just looking at it from a marketing perspective.
Do you think this segment of the market base spends a lot of money on the product. This is not a moral observation, purely a financial one.
There is nothing wrong with being old, having less than an average education and/or not being wealthy. I don’t see those characteristics as insults.
Maybe I should have scrolled more before responding, but than, I'da lost interest.
The demographic is the viewing audience...period.
TV billions are paying ALL of the salaries.
Also, the demo that will revolt are the same people buying Flags and Hats and waving the frantically at the beaches and sporting events alike, for their favorite team, NASCAR driver and POTUS of their choice.
These are the people that will spend their last damned dollar on these things.
He thinks changing the name is stupid, sort of a bridge too far/slippery slope deal. Im on the other side of the aisle, but admittedly without much passion for the whole deal.
But we came upon an interesting question I think serves as a pretty good litmus test, and it gave him pause: would you in general conversation, say at a bar, address a native american as "Hey redskin". Probably not.
I get your point, but I doubt most of us would say “Hey, Mexican” or “Hey, Asian” either.
RE: RE: Was just having a good txt conversation with my brother.
He thinks changing the name is stupid, sort of a bridge too far/slippery slope deal. Im on the other side of the aisle, but admittedly without much passion for the whole deal.
But we came upon an interesting question I think serves as a pretty good litmus test, and it gave him pause: would you in general conversation, say at a bar, address a native american as "Hey redskin". Probably not.
I get your point, but I doubt most of us would say “Hey, Mexican” or “Hey, Asian” either.
No, but you might reference an “Asian fella” or a “Mexican dude” but in all likelihood wouldn’t say “Redskin guy”.
RE: Was just having a good txt conversation with my brother.
He thinks changing the name is stupid, sort of a bridge too far/slippery slope deal. Im on the other side of the aisle, but admittedly without much passion for the whole deal.
But we came upon an interesting question I think serves as a pretty good litmus test, and it gave him pause: would you in general conversation, say at a bar, address a native american as "Hey redskin". Probably not.
We leave a great many good ideas "on the table" out of fear of the elusive slippery slope.
Otherwise the protests and rioting will start anew against the rebranded name.
Otherwise the protests and rioting will start anew against the rebranded name.
Sure, or he can simply name his business something that doesn't isolate a group of people that were brutalized.
I'm pretty indifferent on this (demanding name changes), but the reactions to it are strange. This isn't something that's been requested for the first time in 2020 - its been going on for years and he's been avoiding it for years.
Washington Strongbows or something.
It still preserves the homage to the tribal people.
As racist as the term Redskins may or may not be to some, it was certainly never intended to be racist. It just may have been ignorantly created. So don't wipe the entire tradition and nod to that culture away.
No way ... the Harry Potter brigade would say it’s too close to Hogwarts, the lawyers for Mr Wolf would say it’s derogatory to the memory of the one who couldn’t blow down the brick house and ... not to mention hog is close to pork which is offensive to some religious sects. You see, once you start listening to some nonsense, you have to listen to it all.
The ex-owner of the Washington team, the person who came up with the name, was a notorious racist, resisting for years the integration of black players in the league. I believe that owner is being removed from the ring of honor.
It is a tarnished legacy and it won’t hurt a bit to change the name and move on...besides, the guys can still be hogs...
Snyder may have had a backup plan in his pocket.
Link - ( New Window )
but.. too many dollars to be made with a whole new look.
Washington Strongbows or something.
It still preserves the homage to the tribal people.
As racist as the term Redskins may or may not be to some, it was certainly never intended to be racist. It just may have been ignorantly created. So don't wipe the entire tradition and nod to that culture away.
George Preston Marshall was a notorious racist and renamed the Braves to the Redskins to capitalize upon playing in Fenway with the Red Sox and exploit the fad in that period of time, lead by Jim Thorpe and things like the Carlisle Indian Football group. He went as far as hiring a person impersonating a Native (William Henry "Lone Star" Dietz) and doing the equivalent of a "redskin minstrel show" during games - complete with having his HC wear the ceremonial head garb and war paint.
This is the same person that required Dixie played before the National Anthem at games, refused to integrate until he was forced to (by having his new stadium location get blocked) and left a significant sum of his fortunes to be setup specifically to fight racial integration.
Argue to what degree the term "Redskin" is filled with the same vitriol and hatred that other racial epitaphs are, but never confuse that the organization playing in DC was at the forefront of racist policy and practices for nearly 4 decades and used the branding to cash in and exploit a fad. You're calling back to something that simply isn't there.
There was no culture in that organization from 1933 to the mid-60s and anything Snyder can do to distance himself that much further from a shit stain on history like GPM is a good thing.
If I had to guess, this is the way it goes. The Redskins logo itself isn’t offensive like the Cleveland Indians logo was, although some will still have a problem with it.
About time this name change happened.
Washington Strongbows or something.
It still preserves the homage to the tribal people.
As racist as the term Redskins may or may not be to some, it was certainly never intended to be racist. It just may have been ignorantly created. So don't wipe the entire tradition and nod to that culture away.
If he changes it, it would be foolish beyond belief to come anywhere close to a subset of people’s. He should walk as far away as he can. Name it the FedExers
Until he’s accused of appropriation. He should get rid of the current name but I think he’s an idiot if he tries to keep the same theme.
If they nickname still starts with an R, they can use that classic stylized R as the logo. I always thought that was a great looking logo.
The only explanation for Daniel Snyder keeping that name in place must be that he's some combination of a massive troll/ sociopath prone to self-harm/ bumbling idiot of historical proportions.
/mic drop
OTOH, Redtails seems like too clever a pivot to me. Just get rid of your offensive name, that's enough, no need to do homage to anyone.
Another great tale from the annals of the "8 decades of bravery, pride and respect."
IMO, a tomahawk is not as bad. But if you will use a specific artifact to symbolize the spirit of your squad, you must tread carefully and make an effort to represent authenticity.
2) I never realized til just now the braid in the logo looks like laces on a football. Is that by design? This is like the first time you see the arrow in Fedex
This is the name I have been thinking they should consider for years. I really don't see any racist connection in this.
Quote:
And just change the logo. Same type of scheme but without the racial part of it
Until he’s accused of appropriation. He should get rid of the current name but I think he’s an idiot if he tries to keep the same theme.
They can basically choose any name that isn't/wasn't a slur. Name it after a tribe. Name it after a Native American object.
I personally never gave a shit about the name, but the people whining about it in this thread as if it's some majorly impactful "sign of the times" are being such crybabies. I mean like, St Johns did this a long time ago.
The only Native American Sports-ish thing I think is way over the line is the Cleveland Indian's Chief Wahoo or whatever they call him. That shit is dumb as fuck and should have been canned years ago (maybe it was, I don't really follow baseball). If that was a caricature of a black man, it'd have been gone a long time ago.
IMO, a tomahawk is not as bad. But if you will use a specific artifact to symbolize the spirit of your squad, you must tread carefully and make an effort to represent authenticity.
Of course Snyder will change the name. It costs him nothing, he will have a merch bonanza, he can still run his business exactly as he wishes and the very easily distracted will move on to another meaningless “offensive objectification”. Personally, I suggest Mario, Luigi and their offensive accents.
Quote:
And just change the logo. Same type of scheme but without the racial part of it
This is the name I have been thinking they should consider for years. I really don't see any racist connection in this.
Yeah, I don't see how Tomahawks could be deemed as being racist
Of course Snyder will change the name. It costs him nothing, he will have a merch bonanza, he can still run his business exactly as he wishes and the very easily distracted will move on to another meaningless “offensive objectification”. Personally, I suggest Mario, Luigi and their offensive accents.
Or what you said.
The best time to change the name is ten years ago, but the second best time is right now. If Snyder is smart, he'll get out in front of this, own it and turn it into a positive.
Much better to do that than be dragged, kicking and screaming, into the 21st century.
Someone on Reddit suggested this
In all seriousness, it would be really easy for them to just take the Red out of their name and go with just the Skins. Its what everyone refers to them as anyway and it could also refer to hogskins or, more relevant to football, the pigskins.
Putting my vote in for it. It makes the most sense.
I think he’s operated that way for a while but I’m guessing the NFL is putting the full court press on him right now and I’m not sure what the repercussions will be if he doesn’t agree to change. He’s at the end of his leash.
Exactly... and they probably live alone with their 6 cats.
Quote:
99% of the people offended aren't Native Americans.
Exactly... and they probably live alone with their 6 cats.
Who cares? I'm not black, but I'd be offended if a sports team was called the N word. Wouldn't you as just a person?
You'd lose
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Agreed. Are we going to have to rename our team because we offend tall people? I don’t think the team name is meant to be racist, but if people are that upset about it fine. When I watch historic films I honestly don’t recall anyone using the term “redskin” toward Native Americans. They use other terms I’m not going to write because they are wrong, but I don’t remember that name being used.
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but it is fucking stupid. Sorry if that hurts any of the snowflakes feelings on this thread.
Agreed. Are we going to have to rename our team because we offend tall people? I don’t think the team name is meant to be racist, but if people are that upset about it fine. When I watch historic films I honestly don’t recall anyone using the term “redskin” toward Native Americans. They use other terms I’m not going to write because they are wrong, but I don’t remember that name being used.
Interesting take. Do you know who the founder of the team was? It might tell you a lot about whether the team name was meant to be racist.
That's the most important question? Really?
This is definitely the most important piece of all of this...
Don't ever change.
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but it is fucking stupid. Sorry if that hurts any of the snowflakes feelings on this thread.
Agreed. Are we going to have to rename our team because we offend tall people? I don’t think the team name is meant to be racist, but if people are that upset about it fine. When I watch historic films I honestly don’t recall anyone using the term “redskin” toward Native Americans. They use other terms I’m not going to write because they are wrong, but I don’t remember that name being used.
he was saying he personally is not offended, but the people throwing tantrums on this thread are fucking snowflakes.
And quite frankly, you are. Here's a novel fucking thought: how about we don't name any team anything that's [color]skin.
If you've seen my posts, it's pretty fucking obvious I was born here, so as a 2nd gen Indian-American (like from India), I'd wouldn't root for a fucking team called the "Brownskins" with a turban and/or red dot on his forehead.
It's not weakness to say "yeah, change it" with regards to a football team name if it makes your FELLOW AMERICANS not feel objectified (and at that, one of our rivals!).
This really isn't hard to follow - Blackhawks, Seminoles, are tribes. Nobody gives a shit.
whiteskins, blackskins, foreskins, redskins, orangeskins, yellowskins -- its fucking stupid. This isn't 1933 or whatever.
The rest are triggered white leftist douchebags who never had a job that didn’t involve bitching for a living and are desperately attempting to vent off all the white guilt and self-loathing the faculty lounges of universities nationwide pounded into them.
Call them the Washington Deep Staters.
The rest are triggered white leftist douchebags who never had a job that didn’t involve bitching for a living and are desperately attempting to vent off all the white guilt and self-loathing the faculty lounges of universities nationwide pounded into them.
Call them the Washington Deep Staters.
If those numbers are correct (they probably are - I would not be surprised) .... that is sad. I want to say more but, I do not want to risk getting to political.
Glad we have a name that should not be offensive to anyone. Unless (50 years? from now) .... people who are 6'4", 6'6", 7 feet tall decide that the term "Giants" is derogatory?
+1
The ex-owner of the Washington team, the person who came up with the name, was a notorious racist, resisting for years the integration of black players in the league. I believe that owner is being removed from the ring of honor.
It is a tarnished legacy and it won’t hurt a bit to change the name and move on...besides, the guys can still be hogs...
If I was a racist and owned a team - I am not sure I would name the team after a group of people I felt superior to? Did he do it as a Joke? I don't think so ... I really think he thought the "Indians" were a formidable bunch and were great warriors. He just could not see 100 years into the PC future and that the term "Redskins" would be offensive to 9% of indigenous people. (The 9% number came from a previous post which I assume is true?)
Found this on Wiki - for what it is worth ....
"The team originated as the Boston Braves, based in Boston, Massachusetts, in 1932, under the ownership of George Preston Marshall.[9] At the time the team played in Braves Field, home of the Boston Braves baseball team in the National League. The following year, the club moved to Fenway Park, home of the American League's Boston Red Sox, whereupon owners changed the team's name to "Boston Redskins"; to round out the change, Marshall hired William Henry "Lone Star" Dietz, who was thought to be part Sioux, as the team's head coach.[10] However, the team had difficulty drawing fans as Boston was not much of a football town at the time."
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just change the name.
Washington Strongbows or something.
It still preserves the homage to the tribal people.
As racist as the term Redskins may or may not be to some, it was certainly never intended to be racist. It just may have been ignorantly created. So don't wipe the entire tradition and nod to that culture away.
George Preston Marshall was a notorious racist and renamed the Braves to the Redskins to capitalize upon playing in Fenway with the Red Sox and exploit the fad in that period of time, lead by Jim Thorpe and things like the Carlisle Indian Football group. He went as far as hiring a person impersonating a Native (William Henry "Lone Star" Dietz) and doing the equivalent of a "redskin minstrel show" during games - complete with having his HC wear the ceremonial head garb and war paint.
This is the same person that required Dixie played before the National Anthem at games, refused to integrate until he was forced to (by having his new stadium location get blocked) and left a significant sum of his fortunes to be setup specifically to fight racial integration.
Argue to what degree the term "Redskin" is filled with the same vitriol and hatred that other racial epitaphs are, but never confuse that the organization playing in DC was at the forefront of racist policy and practices for nearly 4 decades and used the branding to cash in and exploit a fad. You're calling back to something that simply isn't there.
There was no culture in that organization from 1933 to the mid-60s and anything Snyder can do to distance himself that much further from a shit stain on history like GPM is a good thing.
Should have read this before I posted last .... 80 posts on the franchise from Washington. A first? A last - hopefully?
--I think calling them Indians is even more offensive. And calling them American Indians is just plain stupid. They are Native Americans whose ancestry can be traced to several nations (Sioux, Navajo, Algonquin, etc). They have absolutely nothing to do with India or Indians. If the Washington Redskins should change their name, so should the Cleveland Indians.
--I don't have a strong opinion on whether or not changing the name is the "right" thing to do, but at this point, it's the wise thing to do.
--The new name should be the Washington Native Americans.
--I think calling them Indians is even more offensive. And calling them American Indians is just plain stupid. They are Native Americans whose ancestry can be traced to several nations (Sioux, Navajo, Algonquin, etc). They have absolutely nothing to do with India or Indians. If the Washington Redskins should change their name, so should the Cleveland Indians.
--I don't have a strong opinion on whether or not changing the name is the "right" thing to do, but at this point, it's the wise thing to do.
--The new name should be the Washington Native Americans.
How about just Americans?
I totally disagree with you on the Indians. Redskins was always a derogatory term, The Cleveland caricature is asinine. I cannot and do not see why the name "Indians" is a problem.
And in actuality, there are no native Americans. The first settlers came across from Asia during the ice age when the Bering Sea was frozen and foot travel was possible.
I totally disagree with you on the Indians. Redskins was always a derogatory term, The Cleveland caricature is asinine. I cannot and do not see why the name "Indians" is a problem.[quote]They're not from India, that's why.
[quote]And in actuality, there are no native Americans. The first settlers came across from Asia during the ice age when the Bering Sea was frozen and foot travel was possible.
"Ah, you're Indians" - ( New Window )
The Washington Filibusters?
The Washington What the Fucks?
The Washington Taxpayers?
Contrary to polls showing that relatively few Native Americans take offense at the Washington Redskins’ name, a new UC Berkeley study has found that at least half of more than 1,000 Native Americans surveyed are offended by the football team’s 87-year-old moniker and Native mascots in general.
...
The study’s findings, published in the journal of Social Psychological and Personality Science, show that the degree to which those surveyed identified as Native American influenced how offensive they found Native mascots.
Of those polled for the study, 57% who strongly identify with being Native American and 67% of those who frequently engage in tribal cultural practices were found to be deeply insulted by caricatures of Native American culture.
...
Overall, 49% of participants in the UC Berkeley study were found to strongly agree or agree that the Washington Redskins’ name is offensive, while 38% were not bothered by it. The remainder were undecided or indifferent.
However, the number of those offended rose for study participants who were heavily engaged in their native or tribal cultures (67%), young people (60%) and people with tribal affiliations such as members of federally recognized tribes (52%).
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Big Cola is watching
Did the Redtail airmen have any special connection to Washington?
Also, calling them the Washington Americans is just so.........American. It's bland as bland can be.
Naming a team after a bird seems to be a safe bet.
I'd go with the Wahington Pigeons, as they shit everywhere they go.
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Of those polled for the study, 57% who strongly identify with being Native American and 67% of those who frequently engage in tribal cultural practices were found to be deeply insulted by caricatures of Native American culture.
A Facebook friend of mine who I worked with ten years ago strongly identifies with his Native American heritage and frequently engages in tribal cultural practices. I messaged him today asking for his feelings on the Redskins name. I'll let you know his response.
There’s a wave going on now. I wouldn’t be surprised if the numbers have risen. I think People’s feelings and opinions ride the wave and become a mass, rather than inherent, opinion.
- The polling around the American Indian community’s feelings on the term and iconography sways greatly from poll to poll. A more recent UC Berkeley poll, and arguably a better constructed poll than the Post poll often referenced, shows a majority of that community is not in favor of the team name.
- Seemingly a lot of Americans in general are uncomfortable with the name
- If Snyder’s intention is to honor and promote American Indians, there are probably better ways to do it
And there are also reflexive reactions to waves
- The polling around the American Indian community’s feelings on the term and iconography sways greatly from poll to poll. A more recent UC Berkeley poll, and arguably a better constructed poll than the Post poll often referenced, shows a majority of that community is not in favor of the team name.
- Seemingly a lot of Americans in general are uncomfortable with the name
- If Snyder’s intention is to honor and promote American Indians, there are probably better ways to do it
I don’t think teams names ought to promote anything other than the team (and, perhaps, the location). But, it’s very valuable real estate. A market approach would offer naming rights. And, since it’s good enough for little leagues everywhere, it should work for the nfl. Not different from stadiums.
+1
Snyder’s the one who mounted the rostrum on promoting American Indianism — he was probably better off literally never saying anything on the topic.
The name isn’t going to survive the weekend, and the franchise and the league are going to move on just fine.
One thing that is never brought up with this is that if they change their names 3/4 of the Washington teams will not have their real names, as in Bullets and Senators.
I like how someone brought up that most Native Americans are not offended and that a HS on a reservation calls themselves Redskins.
As far as the Indians changing their name too is concerned, and all Indian names is that it honors them, it doesn't demean them. Did we also name states, cities, towns, rivers, military units, and helicopters after them to demean them? Has there been another civilization out there who honors a conquered people like this?
So if all Native American names are racist and demeaning then why are the Vikings, Celtics, and Fighting Irish not? Weren't the Irish conquered and colonized as well? Weren't the Celtics the indigenous population of all the British Islands?
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.
Putting my vote in for it. It makes the most sense.
Only because most fans refer to them as that and so do the media
So, you're offended that people are offended? People being offended really offends you?
Also, you're not one of those namby pamby, thin-skinned, snowflakes, but if the NFL plays a song you don't like, you're not going to watch football anymore?
Are you sure you're not just copy any pasting comments from The Onion?
It seems for the most part the skins fans (for the most part) do not want to cave to the pressure. These are the team's real paying customers. Makes the decision for Snyder that much more difficult.
Do they NET lose or gain fans due to changing the name? What is your guess?
Sources:2016 ESPN indeed told Bomani Jones to cover his Cleveland ‘Caucasians’ shirt 😂😂🤣
Talk about snowflakes
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Anyone can find a way to be offended by just about anything these days. It's all horseshit. It's just a method used to continue to divide the country. If Goodell kisses ass by playing a "black" national anthem, I'm through with NFL football. I've been an avid fan since 1971. I will miss it, but there are other things in life to enjoy. I will always love my Giant memories.
So, you're offended that people are offended? People being offended really offends you?
Also, you're not one of those namby pamby, thin-skinned, snowflakes, but if the NFL plays a song you don't like, you're not going to watch football anymore?
Are you sure you're not just copy any pasting comments from The Onion?
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏🔥🔥🔥🔥
Is there another indigenous tribe from the DC area that they could honor ? Washington Apaches sounds good, but I believe they are based in the southwest. Probably best they avoid anything to do with Native American themes.
Another name someone came up with a while ago was the Washington Federals. I think that could definitely work, although not sure about the logo. Cowboys vs. Federals is kind of historically fitting, no ? Also ties into the area with MLB's Nationals, as well as the NHL's Capitals.
Good riddance. Buh bye.
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No snowflake is a term used by people with common sense to criticize those who live their life searching to be offended. Most often used toward college students but increasingly leeching into adults a well.
I'd like the Washington Generals with George Washington on the helmet, oh wait can't do that either.
Whatever they do, no one will be happy.
The history of the logo is not some sacred artifact passed down through the ages and demonstrating a landmark moment in our collective as a society. Some shitbag racist took over a failing team in Boston and tried to leach off the Red Sox and play up on the "Indian Football" fad of the early 20th century. We're fighting over a cheap marketing trick by the NFL's biggest racist and pretending its something more than that.
The term "Redskin" is racist at worst and anachronistic at best. At least some Native Americans had begun asking for the name change as early as 1971 (documented at least) and organized protests against it started in the 1980s. Just as there isn't a monolith "Black Community", there isn't a singular voice for Natives - but it seems there is at least 40-50 years of history with at least some of that group voicing concern over its use. Rhetorically, what's the threshold for which we need to identify that a group is offended and react to that?
Outside of slippery slope logic fallacies, I fail to see how this is the hill people want to die on. Syracuse gave up the Saltine Warrior over 40 years ago. St. Johns' gave up "Red Men" 35 years ago. Chief Wahoo has been gone for 2 years. This isn't some recent phenomenon and to try and tie to it to anything specific misses the mark.
Its just financially convenient for it to be forced, which doesn't make the underlying point any less valid - it just demonstrates how things are done professionally, sadly.
So we’d have to root against the Americans and when we play them, we’ll want to kick some American ass.
I think there's something in their culture.
I have no issue with companies taking stands on things but they better not have any skeletons in the closet.
The Washington Filibusters?
The Washington What the Fucks?
The Washington Taxpayers?
The Washington Sex Scandallers
The Washington Bottomless Mimosas
The Washington Psychopaths
The Washington Potomac Pissers
And no, you know god damn well who goes out of his way to divide the country, and it isn't people trying to change the Redskins name.
I think there's something in their culture.
generalize much?
One thing that is never brought up with this is that if they change their names 3/4 of the Washington teams will not have their real names, as in Bullets and Senators.
I like how someone brought up that most Native Americans are not offended and that a HS on a reservation calls themselves Redskins.
As far as the Indians changing their name too is concerned, and all Indian names is that it honors them, it doesn't demean them. Did we also name states, cities, towns, rivers, military units, and helicopters after them to demean them? Has there been another civilization out there who honors a conquered people like this?
So if all Native American names are racist and demeaning then why are the Vikings, Celtics, and Fighting Irish not? Weren't the Irish conquered and colonized as well? Weren't the Celtics the indigenous population of all the British Islands?
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Anyone can find a way to be offended by just about anything these days. It's all horseshit. It's just a method used to continue to divide the country. If Goodell kisses ass by playing a "black" national anthem, I'm through with NFL football. I've been an avid fan since 1971. I will miss it, but there are other things in life to enjoy. I will always love my Giant memories.
So, you're offended that people are offended? People being offended really offends you?
Also, you're not one of those namby pamby, thin-skinned, snowflakes, but if the NFL plays a song you don't like, you're not going to watch football anymore?
Are you sure you're not just copy any pasting comments from The Onion?
I'm pretty sure when corporate sponsors pull out, it isn't some attempt to divide the nation. Quite the opposite in fact, the tide has turned so much that these corporations feel safe in making "their stand" that the good pub will massively outweigh the bad pub. This is such an odd hill to die on.
Imagine calling people thin skinned and then refusing to watch something you got enjoyment out of for years and even take time to post on forums about it because of something as innocuous as a name change. The Giants could change their name to the NY FedEx Ground and Pounds and I could literally give a shit. It's a name. I take more offense to the rule changes to the game in order to cater to the fantasy contingent. There are ways to to boost scoring without making it look gamed - see what the XFL did.
Some of you guys need to take a break from the keyboard and the news and think about what actually matters in life.
I have no issue with companies taking stands on things but they better not have any skeletons in the closet.
I am pro BLM and also find these meaningless corporate gestures often hypocritical and/or counterproductive
This is a strawman. People are talking about the name Redskins, not all Native American based names.
It isn't actually a strawman though.
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In comment 14928678 Elisha10 said:
This is a strawman. People are talking about the name Redskins, not all Native American based names.
It isn't actually a strawman though. Link - ( New Window )
It's not like theres not an obvious explanation for this - Cleveland caught a lot of flak for their awful, awful Chief Wahoo, which is the impetus for them even discussing a name change.
Plus, I was talking about this thread, so yes, it was a strawman.
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Anyone can find a way to be offended by just about anything these days. It's all horseshit. It's just a method used to continue to divide the country. If Goodell kisses ass by playing a "black" national anthem, I'm through with NFL football. I've been an avid fan since 1971. I will miss it, but there are other things in life to enjoy. I will always love my Giant memories.
+1
+2
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Of those polled for the study, 57% who strongly identify with being Native American and 67% of those who frequently engage in tribal cultural practices were found to be deeply insulted by caricatures of Native American culture.
A Facebook friend of mine who I worked with ten years ago strongly identifies with his Native American heritage and frequently engages in tribal cultural practices. I messaged him today asking for his feelings on the Redskins name. I'll let you know his response.
There’s a wave going on now. I wouldn’t be surprised if the numbers have risen. I think People’s feelings and opinions ride the wave and become a mass, rather than inherent, opinion.
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The Washington Gridlock?
The Washington Filibusters?
The Washington What the Fucks?
The Washington Taxpayers?
The Washington Sex Scandallers
The Washington Bottomless Mimosas
The Washington Psychopaths
The Washington Potomac Pissers
The Potomac Pissers has a nice ring to it lol. Nicely done.
It seems for the most part the skins fans (for the most part) do not want to cave to the pressure. These are the team's real paying customers. Makes the decision for Snyder that much more difficult.
Do they NET lose or gain fans due to changing the name? What is your guess?
Disagree on your take on the ExtremeSkins thread, if we are talking present tense.
I see a split between those who are overtly in favor of the change and those who are resigned to it. Virtually no one wants Snyder to try to continue to hold out, which is practically impossible at this point anyway.
Not going to say Washington won't lose any fans, but it will be very few and, again, the issue of whether to change has become practically moot.
As evidence of that, ExtremeSkins has put discussion of what the new name should be on the main board and it's the hot thread.
Discussion of whether the name should change (at all) is relegated to an off-topic board and, even there, almost no one, present tense, is advocating for keeping the name.
They are probably old(er), the are probably not highly educated, they are probably not that wealthy.
Now there is an original idea!
They are probably old(er), the are probably not highly educated, they are probably not that wealthy.
Be careful of your bigotry here.
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Anyone can find a way to be offended by just about anything these days. It's all horseshit. It's just a method used to continue to divide the country. If Goodell kisses ass by playing a "black" national anthem, I'm through with NFL football. I've been an avid fan since 1971. I will miss it, but there are other things in life to enjoy. I will always love my Giant memories.
Stop watching now. Playing another song before games offends you that much? It's crazy what a snowflake you are.
And no, you know god damn well who goes out of his way to divide the country, and it isn't people trying to change the Redskins name.
I think they should just drop the Anthem before all the games in all the sports. It has outlived its' intention.
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In comment 14928665 Tark10 said:
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Anyone can find a way to be offended by just about anything these days. It's all horseshit. It's just a method used to continue to divide the country. If Goodell kisses ass by playing a "black" national anthem, I'm through with NFL football. I've been an avid fan since 1971. I will miss it, but there are other things in life to enjoy. I will always love my Giant memories.
Stop watching now. Playing another song before games offends you that much? It's crazy what a snowflake you are.
And no, you know god damn well who goes out of his way to divide the country, and it isn't people trying to change the Redskins name.
I think they should just drop the Anthem before all the games in all the sports. It has outlived its' intention.
+1. Too much distraction and it’s not relevant to the point of coming out to the stadium.
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Is this a customer they should be concerned about losing?
They are probably old(er), the are probably not highly educated, they are probably not that wealthy.
Be careful of your bigotry here.
Not bigotry, just looking at it from a marketing perspective.
Do you think this segment of the market base spends a lot of money on the product. This is not a moral observation, purely a financial one.
There is nothing wrong with being old, having less than an average education and/or not being wealthy. I don’t see those characteristics as insults.
The ideas and ideals of the Constitution, Star Spangled banner and Pledge of Allegiance are correct. It's people that are flawed and always will be. Perfection is unattainable when dealing with 350 million human beings. The USA does most things better than most nations.
Playing a separate anthem though? That seems an over sensitive over reaction which actually separates us not joins us. There isn't a racist thought or idea expressed in the song. It applies to all Americans. So why wouldn't everyone want to be included in it? All of us.
It's like the owners are over thinking this. I consider this along the same lines as politicians kneeling while wearing kente cloth to show solidarity (Hopefully, that isn't looked at as being political...not my intention).
Wtf? Why? Just fix your shit.
Companies still can’t stop labor abuses at Chinese factories
He or she is a poor person living in SE Washington or rural Virginia. This is the core of the fan base, who live and die Redskins football. And they spend their hard-earned money on Redskins gear.
You basically seem to be arguing that if someone doesn't make as much money as you or didn't go to college like you doesn't matter as much.
In comment 14928625 section125 said:
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--Why is it so difficult for some on BBI to avoid violating the terms of service? Your stupidity has ruined it for the rest of us. And speaking of your stupidity, why should anyone believe you have an intelligent thought in your head if you can't even follow a simple set of rules?
--I think calling them Indians is even more offensive. And calling them American Indians is just plain stupid. They are Native Americans whose ancestry can be traced to several nations (Sioux, Navajo, Algonquin, etc). They have absolutely nothing to do with India or Indians. If the Washington Redskins should change their name, so should the Cleveland Indians.
--I don't have a strong opinion on whether or not changing the name is the "right" thing to do, but at this point, it's the wise thing to do.
--The new name should be the Washington Native Americans.
How about just Americans?
I totally disagree with you on the Indians. Redskins was always a derogatory term, The Cleveland caricature is asinine. I cannot and do not see why the name "Indians" is a problem.
And in actuality, there are no native Americans. The first settlers came across from Asia during the ice age when the Bering Sea was frozen and foot travel was possible.
It’s getting serious. Names of deceased on the helmets or jerseys? C’mon man!
=2&thread=599100&show_all=1#14928730]14928730[/url] Sonic Youth said:
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Anyone can find a way to be offended by just about anything these days. It's all horseshit. It's just a method used to continue to divide the country. If Goodell kisses ass by playing a "black" national anthem, I'm through with NFL football. I've been an avid fan since 1971. I will miss it, but there are other things in life to enjoy. I will always love my Giant memories.
Stop watching now. Playing another song before games offends you that much? It's crazy what a snowflake you are.
And no, you know god damn well who goes out of his way to divide the country, and it isn't people trying to change the Redskins name.
He or she is a poor person living in SE Washington or rural Virginia. This is the core of the fan base, who live and die Redskins football. And they spend their hard-earned money on Redskins gear.
You basically seem to be arguing that if someone doesn't make as much money as you or didn't go to college like you doesn't matter as much.
I’m not talking about the average fan. I’m talking about the fans who will walk away from the franchise because of a name change. The marketers should be (an I assure you that they are) aware of the socio economic standing and spending patterns of said demo.
He or she is a poor person living in SE Washington or rural Virginia. This is the core of the fan base, who live and die Redskins football. And they spend their hard-earned money on Redskins gear.
You basically seem to be arguing that if someone doesn't make as much money as you or didn't go to college like you doesn't matter as much.
Eric....be real here....the skins are a dead fucking franchise....they are worth what they are worth based on location only....there's only one way but up....and this would play well with the woke young DC crowd that will actually buy tickets
To make a point, if we were to honor the owner, how about the Washington Kikes?
Before anyone goes apoplectic, I am a proud Jew who has spent most of my professional life working in the the Jewish community and my being Jewish is a key component of my identity (even more than being a Giants fan 😉).
Of course this would be offensive and 'beyond the pale'
So is the current name.
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How about the Washington Thinskins
To make a point, if we were to honor the owner, how about the Washington Kikes?
Before anyone goes apoplectic, I am a proud Jew who has spent most of my professional life working in the the Jewish community and my being Jewish is a key component of my identity (even more than being a Giants fan 😉).
Of course this would be offensive and 'beyond the pale'
So is the current name.
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In comment 14928779 Blue Dream said:
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How about the Washington Thinskins
To make a point, if we were to honor the owner, how about the Washington Kikes?
Before anyone goes apoplectic, I am a proud Jew who has spent most of my professional life working in the the Jewish community and my being Jewish is a key component of my identity (even more than being a Giants fan 😉).
Of course this would be offensive and 'beyond the pale'
So is the current name.
What about the Washington Jewish Mothers?
To the larger point (and I assume that is an attempt at humour, which made me crack a smile) since sometimes the term is used as a pejorative (like 'helicopter mother' for another group), I don't think it would be a good idea.
The ideas and ideals of the Constitution, Star Spangled banner and Pledge of Allegiance are correct. It's people that are flawed and always will be. Perfection is unattainable when dealing with 350 million human beings. The USA does most things better than most nations.
Playing a separate anthem though? That seems an over sensitive over reaction which actually separates us not joins us. There isn't a racist thought or idea expressed in the song. It applies to all Americans. So why wouldn't everyone want to be included in it? All of us.
If the constitution were simply “correct” it wouldn’t have had to be amended as many times as it has.
Unless the amendment process is part of the correctness you mean.
He or she is a poor person living in SE Washington or rural Virginia. This is the core of the fan base, who live and die Redskins football. And they spend their hard-earned money on Redskins gear.
You basically seem to be arguing that if someone doesn't make as much money as you or didn't go to college like you doesn't matter as much.
I think you are touching on why the Redskins are now going to be changing their name - new money. These people aren’t leaving, you know it and I know it. And if a small amount of them do it will be made up by new fans who will dip their toe into a hopefully more progressive team. It will also help with sponsors who won’t want to be associated with racism.
Damn us pesky imperfect people.
The contingent of fans who will be upset enough to stop being fans of the franchise over this is doesn’t sniff the blowback they’ll get if they don’t do something now.
Mods should put up a pinned and locked post saying the NFL anthem is off limits. Doesn’t matter if everyone from Roger to Saquon is commenting on it or the fact that it will continue to be a topic of conversation.
He has always been a good guy. What did he say?
He has always been a good guy. What did he say?
He started a thread in the dual anthem controversy and the kneeling protest.
These are the same people that respond to sexual crimes with "not all men", "what was she wearing?"
Address the fucking issue at hand. I'm so fucking sick of entitled white guy deflection.
But we came upon an interesting question I think serves as a pretty good litmus test, and it gave him pause: would you in general conversation, say at a bar, address a native american as "Hey redskin". Probably not.
political correctness
cost to attend games
the kneeling thing
the officiating
horrible rule changes
You lose fans and likely may not get some of them back. Nothing that has occurred over the past few years has brought new fans to the sport.
If not for fantasy football, the NFL would be in serious trouble right now.
It does not matter whether you agree with their reasons, but we have seen far too many people say they are done with the NFL. 10 years ago, we were not hearing that.
The other concern I have is many of the young kids today just are not into the NFL. When I was a kid, virtually everyone followed a team. Now, kids are into other things. Yet another reason to be concerned for the future of the league.
political correctness
cost to attend games
the kneeling thing
the officiating
horrible rule changes
You lose fans and likely may not get some of them back. Nothing that has occurred over the past few years has brought new fans to the sport.
If not for fantasy football, the NFL would be in serious trouble right now.
It does not matter whether you agree with their reasons, but we have seen far too many people say they are done with the NFL. 10 years ago, we were not hearing that.
The other concern I have is many of the young kids today just are not into the NFL. When I was a kid, virtually everyone followed a team. Now, kids are into other things. Yet another reason to be concerned for the future of the league.
It’s getting serious. Names of deceased on the helmets or jerseys? C’mon man!
=2&thread=599100&show_all=1#14928730]14928730[/url] Sonic Youth said:
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In comment 14928665 Tark10 said:
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Anyone can find a way to be offended by just about anything these days. It's all horseshit. It's just a method used to continue to divide the country. If Goodell kisses ass by playing a "black" national anthem, I'm through with NFL football. I've been an avid fan since 1971. I will miss it, but there are other things in life to enjoy. I will always love my Giant memories.
Stop watching now. Playing another song before games offends you that much? It's crazy what a snowflake you are.
And no, you know god damn well who goes out of his way to divide the country, and it isn't people trying to change the Redskins name.
political correctness
cost to attend games
the kneeling thing
the officiating
horrible rule changes
You lose fans and likely may not get some of them back. Nothing that has occurred over the past few years has brought new fans to the sport.
If not for fantasy football, the NFL would be in serious trouble right now.
It does not matter whether you agree with their reasons, but we have seen far too many people say they are done with the NFL. 10 years ago, we were not hearing that.
The other concern I have is many of the young kids today just are not into the NFL. When I was a kid, virtually everyone followed a team. Now, kids are into other things. Yet another reason to be concerned for the future of the league.
I’m pretty sure nfl revenue and profitability has continued to rise at the same time as all the things you listed.
Someone is spending more money. The NFL is in no financial danger what so ever.
But we came upon an interesting question I think serves as a pretty good litmus test, and it gave him pause: would you in general conversation, say at a bar, address a native american as "Hey redskin". Probably not.
Not only probably not but definitively not.
Right. Im inclined to think anyone who says yes is either full of shit or openly prejudiced and spoiling for a fight. Which really tells us all we need to know about this.
At the end of the day its just the name of a sports team. How much difference does it make in your life? Which, btw, is pretty much the definition of privilege, admittedly a term I used to really chafe at. For most of us this has little to no impact on our lives, and we get to choose our level of involvement or interest. And that is most definitely a privilege. For others its an immersive reality, just one aspect of a society that has been indifferent and unintentionally ignorant at best and violently oppressive at its worst. If this small token, when combined with other efforts, can help this be a better society for everyone who lives in it...Im not a knee jerk bleeding heart progressive but for fucks sake, let it go.
Add to list more awareness of future health issues to players especially the brain.
That too which is resulting in rules changes that hurt the game. It is going to be flag football in 10 years.
The lesson is the vast, vast majority of NFL fans can separate their fandom form their politics and are perfectly fine with the safety changes made to the game.
If some how the NFL pulls off a season this year, they are going to have a financial and ratings bonanza.
Target, Walmart Pull Washington Redskins Merchandise From Online Stores as Team Reviews Name - ( New Window )
These are the same people that respond to sexual crimes with "not all men", "what was she wearing?"
Address the fucking issue at hand. I'm so fucking sick of entitled white guy deflection.
Entitled white guy deflection isn’t going to win you any brownie points in this riveting debate.
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In comment 14928805 ron mexico said:
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Is this a customer they should be concerned about losing?
They are probably old(er), the are probably not highly educated, they are probably not that wealthy.
Be careful of your bigotry here.
Not bigotry, just looking at it from a marketing perspective.
Do you think this segment of the market base spends a lot of money on the product. This is not a moral observation, purely a financial one.
There is nothing wrong with being old, having less than an average education and/or not being wealthy. I don’t see those characteristics as insults.
Maybe I should have scrolled more before responding, but than, I'da lost interest.
The demographic is the viewing audience...period.
TV billions are paying ALL of the salaries.
Also, the demo that will revolt are the same people buying Flags and Hats and waving the frantically at the beaches and sporting events alike, for their favorite team, NASCAR driver and POTUS of their choice.
These are the people that will spend their last damned dollar on these things.
Don't underestimate BUBAH!
Target, Walmart Pull Washington Redskins Merchandise From Online Stores as Team Reviews Name - ( New Window )
Until it can no longer be purchased online...
...Target and Walmart are just losing sales.
Until it can no longer be purchased online...
...Target and Walmart are just losing sales.
Ian Faith:
The Boston gig has been cancelled...
David St. Hubbins:
What?
Ian Faith:
Yeah. I wouldn't worry about it though, it's not a big college town.
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Until it can no longer be purchased online...
...Target and Walmart are just losing sales.
Ian Faith:
The Boston gig has been cancelled...
David St. Hubbins:
What?
Ian Faith:
Yeah. I wouldn't worry about it though, it's not a big college town.
But, they will eventually locate Amazon.
2020 has pretty much sucked but this makes it a tiny big better
Redskins’ minority owners look to sell stakes in team amid ongoing turmoil - ( New Window )
Love it!
But, they will eventually locate Amazon.
Gear gone from Amazon.
nydn - ( New Window )
but redskin name is done ..
But we came upon an interesting question I think serves as a pretty good litmus test, and it gave him pause: would you in general conversation, say at a bar, address a native american as "Hey redskin". Probably not.
I get your point, but I doubt most of us would say “Hey, Mexican” or “Hey, Asian” either.
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He thinks changing the name is stupid, sort of a bridge too far/slippery slope deal. Im on the other side of the aisle, but admittedly without much passion for the whole deal.
But we came upon an interesting question I think serves as a pretty good litmus test, and it gave him pause: would you in general conversation, say at a bar, address a native american as "Hey redskin". Probably not.
I get your point, but I doubt most of us would say “Hey, Mexican” or “Hey, Asian” either.
No, but you might reference an “Asian fella” or a “Mexican dude” but in all likelihood wouldn’t say “Redskin guy”.
But we came upon an interesting question I think serves as a pretty good litmus test, and it gave him pause: would you in general conversation, say at a bar, address a native american as "Hey redskin". Probably not.