A good pick IMO, or at least the Giants I've seen.
He was probably another strong season or two away from making the HOF. Then again, I see guys like Bettis get inducted & peak Tiki & gt; peak Bettis. Obviously Bettis has the longevity argument, but TD got in the strength of 4 or 5 really dominant seasons.
Obviously I don't ever see Tiki getting in, but if he did, I don't think it would be egregious.
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Had Tiki bought in, had one more productive season with a Super Bowl win... He's in for sure.... But it didn't work out that way...
but he was top 5 back in early 70's
#20 Jimmy Patton was named to 5 Pro Bowls and 5 All-Pro teams.
#75 Jim Katcavage was named to 3 Pro Bowls and 3 All-Pro teams.
Both should be in the NFL Hall of Fame, IMO.
Had Tiki bought in, had one more productive season with a Super Bowl win... He's in for sure.... But it didn't work out that way...
I think that is jumping to conclusions. How do you know he didn't but in to the team? I have no issue with a player deciding their time is up even if they are on top. Plenty of players have done that. He was taking a beating with all of his touches. We may not agree with his decision but when he stepped on the field he gave it his all.
Tiki needed two more years near his production just before he retired and he would have been a shoe-in.
Simms
Katcavage
Rote
Shofner
Then Tiki
The best retired Giant not in the HOF? Eli :)
Tiki was not better than Terrell Davis. TD had an amazingly short career, but had 2,000 yards, NFL MVP, Super Bowl MVP
Simms
Katcavage
Rote
Shofner
Then Tiki
Patton, yes. Simms, was he a very good QB or HOF? Shofner probably yes. Rote never became the player he had the skills to be because of injuries. Katcavage wasn’t really a dominant player, just very good. Tiki, about the same level as Simms and both could have gotten in with 1 or 2 more good years.
Bavaro
Tiki
yeah still.
it's almost comical he will not be considered for the hall before ELI will.. My opinion
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Tiki Barber is a Hall of Famer. If he had 1-3 years of less-than-average, declining production, he would have all the numbers in the world to get in. Football is a violent sport that had serious long-term health effects on its players. Just Google "Earl Campbell health" for a collection of articles describing how he needs a walker or wheelchair, and shuffles about due to the hits he took as a running back. I can never begrudge a player (especially a running back who only receives hits) from wanting to walk away from the game when health is a potential factor. Granted, there were other factors in Tiki's retirement (his plan to have a great broadcasting career), but the physical toll was one of the factors involved.
So I can't look at someone who had a very solid career, walked away at his peak, and think "he's a few declining years of stat accumulation away from being a Hall of Famer."
Much of this is taken from the other thread, but here are Tiki's accomplishments, and some realistic projections/extrapolations
- Tiki is the 3rd back in NFL history to have 10,000 rushing yards nad 5,000 receiving yards (Marshall Faulk and Marcus Allen).
-Tiki became the third RB in history to have three 200-yard rushing games in a single season (OJ, Earl Campbell)
- Tiki led his team in rushing for 80 straight games, an NFL record.
Tiki is 22nd all-time in rushing yards with 4.7 yards per carry. The only running backs with more rushing yards and a better yard/carry rate are Jim Brown (5.2) and Barry Sanders (5.0). OJ Simpson is tied at 4.7.
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Projection time
Tiki is currently 22nd all-time in rushing yards with 10,449 yards.
3,653 more rushing yards would put him ahead of Curtis Martin and 4th all-time behind Smith, Payton, and Sanders. Barber rushed for 3522 in his two previous seasons combined. Even if he declined, if he suited up for three more seasons, he would still gain plenty of yards. Tiki's 2006 rushing yards total was 89% of his 2007 rushing yards total. Let's assume he "declines" at a similar rate every year (2006 was better than 2004, so it's not necessarily a decline, but let's try it anyway).
If he declined at that same rate, here are his rushing numbers
2006 Rushing yards: 1662
2007* Rushing yards: 1485
2008* Rushing yards: 1327
2009* Rushing yards: 1185
That total adds to 3,997 more yards to his career which would have put him in fourth place all-time rushing. Even if the drop-off is more significant (and it very well might be), it shows that compiling numbers in declining years would elevate him to near the very top of the class in all-time rushing yards. 3214 puts him 5th ahead of Bettis who played until the wheels fell off the bus and he wore down the rims. Granted, his elite yards/carry average would drop, but his overall numbers would be staggering.
And that is just extrapolating rushing yards. Tiki's biggest asset was that he was also a threat to catch out of the backfield and he amassed a fantastic yards from scrimmage total.
Tiki is currently 12th all-time in yards from scrimmage with 15,632 yards and he walked away after three insane seasons and while in his prime. In final three seasons, going backwards, here are his yards from scrimmage: 2127, 2390, 2096.
Marshall Faulk is fourth all-time in yards from scrimmage with 3522 more than Tiki Barber. Is it that crazy to think that a healthy Tiki, even in decline could average 1761 yards from scrimmage over two more seasons? Even if he played in a very declining fashion for three yards, is it crazy to think that he could get
2007* 1600 yards 100 yds/game
2008* 1200 yards 75 yds/game
2009* 800 yards 50 yds/game
That almost seems too easy for Tiki Barber.
If he did that, he would be behind only Jerry Rice, Emmitt Smith, and Walter Payton in all-time yards from scrimmage. That is some absolutely elite territory. And Tiki would only have to stay healthy. He wouldn't even need more "prime" years.
Obviously, it's a what-if game, but like I said, I won't fault a player from wanting to walk away on top.
Had Tiki bought in, had one more productive season with a Super Bowl win... He's in for sure.... But it didn't work out that way...
I agree with this for the most part. It’s not that Tiki didn’t win a Super Bowl, it’s that he crapped all over the team after he left and then they won the Super Bowl the next season. It was a bad look for sure. And then his other exploits such as cheating on his pregnant wife looked even worse. These attributes are considered when they choose who will be in the Hall of Fame, fair or not.
the hall of fame is about entire career
the way that he walked away always struck people the wrong way - he was still a great RB
and then the year he retired Giatns won super bowl
if tiki plays two more years he is probably in the hall
After all these years, still mystifies me that he's not in HOF especially when you add in fact that he was on All-Decade Team.
Plus, it was reported at the time but no official verification, that he ran 100 yards in 9.7. But it is a fact that he was a sprinter on the Baylor track team.
Tremendous deep threat!
What's even more amazing, most people agreed with Tiki when he was bad talking Strahan. The $trahan stuff was hilarious. Now years later, he is a pariah and Strahan is looked up more favorably..
Leonard Marshall was a better player and had direct impact in the winning of SuperBowls.
Same w Bavaro.
Tiki is over looked but those two were as good as anyone in the NFL at their position. Maybe Bavaros career was too short but he was as good a two TE as anyone in the NFL during his time of not the best
Bavaro
Tiki
Yea I was gonna say this first and foremost but I always beat this drum. I’d throw in additional players like Leonard Marshall and Bart Oates who also don’t get enough national recognition. These were great players who brought in a lot of individual hardware in addition to the historically good team success, barber being the exception there of course. But it’s not like barber played for crappy teams, he made the playoffs 5 out of 10 seasons. That’s above average.
172 (165 started) games longevity, big check
11 years 7 missed starts
5 time prob bowler - sustained excellence among his peers, check
15 playoff games, winner, big check
3 time super bowl champion, winner, big check
Played for two storied franchises. Won with both storied franchises. Great leader on and off the field.
Wtf am I missing. His guy screams HOF career. He’s a center. Let me guess center isn’t good enough for the voters and that NYG thing. Probably bit of both...
Simms
Katcavage
Rote
Shofner
Then Tiki
Good list but I would add Banks, Bavaro, and Wietecha (no one has mentioned him) and leave off Tiki. I'm also iffy with Simms, maybe the Hall of Very Good, but not quite Hall of Fame. Now if he had won XXV instead of Hostetler, I think he would definitely be in.
Unfortunately, Bavaro may have been the best two way TE, I ever saw play. However, Gil Bird assured he will never be in the HOF.
Tiki, was the best at all purpose yards for two consecutive years, without doing my homework.
Only RB, I’ve seen with better field vision than TB, was Ladavian (sp.) Bell.
So, Phil Simms isn't worthy of the Pro Football Hall of Fame you say? Well, guess again. He's more than worthy of a bust in Canton, Ohio. Just look at how his career regular season numbers stack up against some of the immortals who are already enshrined.
Completions: 2,576
More than 13 of the 23 HOF QBs: Blanda, Dawson, Namath, Tittle, Van Brocklin, Jurgensen, Bradshaw, Graham, Griese, Layne, Waterfield, Staubach and Starr.
Yards: 33,462
More than 15 of the 23 HOF QBs: Blanda, Dawson, Namath, Tittle, Van Brocklin, Jurgensen, Aikman, Bradshaw, Graham, Griese, Layne, Young, Waterfield, Staubach and Starr.
Touchdowns: 199
More than 9 of the 23 HOF QBs: Namath, Van Brocklin, Aikman, Graham, Griese, Layne, Waterfield, Staubach and Starr.
Interceptions: 157
Less than 16 of the 23 HOF QBs: Blanda, Dawson, Fouts, Unitas, Namath, Moon, Tarkenton, Tittle, Kelly, Van Brocklin, Marino, Jurgensen, Bradshaw, Griese, Elway and Layne.
Rating: 78.5
Higher than 9 of the 23 HOF QBs: Blanda, Unitas, Namath, Tittle, Van Brocklin, Bradshaw, Griese, Layne and Waterfield.
And notice how I didn't even mention the fact that he also played the best statistical game ever by a QB in the Super Bowl?
And in addition to 86, he won 10 games of the 1990 season.
It's time for this screw job to end. Put Phil Simms in the Hall!
Tiki should be in the Hall of Fame. Enough of the "he should've played another year" or needed to win a ring nonsense.
Tiki Barber: 3 Pro Bowls and 1 All-Pro Team. 13,441 total yards. 55 rushing TDs and 12 receiving TDs for a total of 67.
Ahman Green: 4 Pro Bowls and 2003 NFC Offensive Player of the Year. Broke Jim Taylor's all-time Packers rushing record. 73 total TDs.
Not in the HOF.
Priest Holmes: 3 All-Pro Teams. 85 total TDs. 2,100 total yards from scrimmage in each of three different seasons.
Not in the HOF.
Jamal Lewis: 2001 Offensive Player of the Year and on the 2000s All-Decade Team. 12,486 total yards.
Not in the HOF.
Shaun Alexander: 2005 MFL MVP. 112 total TDs.
Not in the HOF.
The point of all of the above is to simply point out that there a lot of terrific running backs when Tiki played and are not in the HOF.
As I was growing up, I heard over and over again that in order to be in HOF you had to be the dominant player at your position at the time you played. There were two dominant running backs at the time Tiki played and they are in the HOF:
Edgerrin James: more total yards and TDs than Tiki.
LaDainian Tomlinson: nothing needs to be said.
So, IMO Tiki was a very good running back but not any better than Ahman Green, Priest Holmes, Jamal Lewis or Shaun Alexander and none of them are in the HOF.
Who IMO, since you asked, was the best running back I ever saw?
Ron Johnson, the first 1,000 running back in Giants history and he did it twice. Both times were the only times the Giants made the playoffs. IMO Ron Johnson carried the entire offense on his back.
Who was on Offense with Ron Johnson? Fran Tarkenton was QB and HOFer but WRs were Don Hermann and Clifton Mc Neil who between them caught 6 TDs in 1970; Bob Tucker at TE caught 5 TDs; the OL was Willie Young-Charlie Harper-Greg Larson-Doug Van Horn-Rich Buzin and Larson and Van Horn were pretty good but the rest of the line was average to below average (Buzin). Ron Johnson nevertheless gained 1.000 yards rushing in 1970 with those offensive players.
But who was the best back in my lifetime in Giants history? I only saw him play one year and that was 1964 because I was too young to remember football before then but IMO Frank Gifford was the best back in Giants history. He made the Pro Bowl at three different positions: running back, flanker and defensive back. Is there another player who's done that?
8 Pro Bowls, 6 All-Pro Teams, 1956 NFL MVP and 1950s All Decade Team. His 77 TDs are still a Giants record and he threw 14 TD passes, still the most TD passes by a non-QB in NFL history.
That's honestly how I see it. Just an opinion like everyone else's.
No. Banks was as good at what he does in his peak as Tiki was in his peak. Banks just had a shorter span.
I don't see this as controversial. Davis was in the top 3 overall RB conversation when healthy, at a time during which Emmitt Smith and Barry Sanders played. He was a touchdown machine and had monster postseason success as well.
I think Thomas is a better point of comparison than a guy like Terrell Davis. If Thomas is in, Barber deserves to be in as well. The contributing factor, of course, is that the early 90's Bills team simply earned more "fame" than the Giants teams that Barber was on.
Tiki Barber: 3 Pro Bowls and 1 All-Pro Team. 13,441 total yards. 55 rushing TDs and 12 receiving TDs for a total of 67.
Ahman Green: 4 Pro Bowls and 2003 NFC Offensive Player of the Year. Broke Jim Taylor's all-time Packers rushing record. 73 total TDs.
Not in the HOF.
Priest Holmes: 3 All-Pro Teams. 85 total TDs. 2,100 total yards from scrimmage in each of three different seasons.
Not in the HOF.
Jamal Lewis: 2001 Offensive Player of the Year and on the 2000s All-Decade Team. 12,486 total yards.
Not in the HOF.
Shaun Alexander: 2005 MFL MVP. 112 total TDs.
Not in the HOF.
The point of all of the above is to simply point out that there a lot of terrific running backs when Tiki played and are not in the HOF.
As I was growing up, I heard over and over again that in order to be in HOF you had to be the dominant player at your position at the time you played. There were two dominant running backs at the time Tiki played and they are in the HOF:
Edgerrin James: more total yards and TDs than Tiki.
LaDainian Tomlinson: nothing needs to be said.
So, IMO Tiki was a very good running back but not any better than Ahman Green, Priest Holmes, Jamal Lewis or Shaun Alexander and none of them are in the HOF.
Who IMO, since you asked, was the best running back I ever saw?
Ron Johnson, the first 1,000 running back in Giants history and he did it twice. Both times were the only times the Giants made the playoffs. IMO Ron Johnson carried the entire offense on his back.
Who was on Offense with Ron Johnson? Fran Tarkenton was QB and HOFer but WRs were Don Hermann and Clifton Mc Neil who between them caught 6 TDs in 1970; Bob Tucker at TE caught 5 TDs; the OL was Willie Young-Charlie Harper-Greg Larson-Doug Van Horn-Rich Buzin and Larson and Van Horn were pretty good but the rest of the line was average to below average (Buzin). Ron Johnson nevertheless gained 1.000 yards rushing in 1970 with those offensive players.
But who was the best back in my lifetime in Giants history? I only saw him play one year and that was 1964 because I was too young to remember football before then but IMO Frank Gifford was the best back in Giants history. He made the Pro Bowl at three different positions: running back, flanker and defensive back. Is there another player who's done that?
8 Pro Bowls, 6 All-Pro Teams, 1956 NFL MVP and 1950s All Decade Team. His 77 TDs are still a Giants record and he threw 14 TD passes, still the most TD passes by a non-QB in NFL history.
That's honestly how I see it. Just an opinion like everyone else's.
Good stuff. I defended tiki’s career but honestly I don’t think he’s a HOF player. I do think he stacks up with other HOFers like bettis but I’d keep bettis out too if I had my way.
I think banks and Marshall and Oates are criminally underrated players. I have a hard time knowing that those great 80s NYG defenses only sent 2 guys to canton and Harry wasn’t even on the second title winning team. That just doesn’t work for me.
As I was growing up, I heard over and over again that in order to be in HOF you had to be the dominant player at your position at the time you played. There were two dominant running backs at the time Tiki played and they are in the HOF:
Edgerrin James: more total yards and TDs than Tiki.
LaDainian Tomlinson: nothing needs to be said.
So, IMO Tiki was a very good running back but not any better than Ahman Green, Priest Holmes, Jamal Lewis or Shaun Alexander and none of them are in the HOF.
Huh?
Edge James has less career yards from scrimmage than Tiki Barber, according to Pro-Football-Reference.com. That's something considering that James had 658(!!!) more touches in his career than Barber.
Barber wasn't better than Ahman Green despite finishing with 3500+ more yards from scrimmage in his career?
Barber finished his career with 3100+ more yards from scrimmage than Jamal Lewis.
Alexander and Priest Holmes didn't even run for 10,000 yards in their careers.
Tiki finished his career with more yards per carry and more yards per touch in his career than any of the players you mentioned. The only guys who averaged more YPC among the 10,000+ yard group are Jim Brown and Barry Sanders. The only other players with 10K rushing and 5K receiving are Marcus Allen and Marshall Faulk. The only guy with more 200+ yard rushing games is OJ Simpson. Barber is 15th all-time in yards from scrimmage. 11 of the players ahead of him are Hall of Famers and 2 of the 3 who aren't are Larry Fitzgerald and Adrian Peterson.
If there was overwhelming support from NFL fans (who are NOT Giants fans) to put Tiki into the hall... then okay I could see it.
Superbowl MVP. Not sure how you can argue that Eli should get in for that reason and not TD
As to the other backs they had more Pro Bowls and/or TDs than Tiki.
Quote:
Is in the hall, tiki was a better player
Superbowl MVP. Not sure how you can argue that Eli should get in for that reason and not TD
Eli was the very embodiment of exhibiting incredible longevity. He was Terrel Davis but he played for 17 years. Apples and Oranges. The Davis convo around here should start and end with Mark Bavaro. To me there is NO difference between the two players. Both were the best offensive players on a 2 time super bowl winning team. Both got hurt. Actually Bavaro played even longer.
In what way was Bavaro the best offensive player on the Giants' 2nd SB team? One could make a case for their relative impacts on their respective 1st SB teams, but it's pretty silly to suggest their contributions were similar, or close to similar, on their 2nd. If that's the case for no difference, it in fact establishes a very big difference.