Not are they going to win this year, but do you think this is the core that will get them their next ring? Say over the next 3 years, are these pillars, or do the Giants need more foundational guys.
Top 10 pick QB, top 2 pick RB, top 5 pick LT, top 25 pick TE, rookie stand out WR, 2nd round guard, on offense.
On defense all rookie top 20 pick DT, big time acquisition at DT, 1st round corner, big time UFA corner, former 1st round safety, 2nd round safety, big time UFA middle linebacker.
What do you think is missing?
Agreed. Fix the OL and win the LoS on both sides. Rush the passer. A premier edge rusher is especially needed. Then a big play WR.
Not to mention Engram, Peppers and Sheppard who were not drafted by DG but fit the bill showing talent but no progression.
Show me solid steps forward (especially with Jones) and I cant get behind us being 1 offseason away from contention.
So the answer is "No".
In terms of a "ring" I think they will need a couple game changers in the front 7. I think the back four be better than expected. It appears Graham likes the four man front but I am not sure they have that game changer at edge yet.
Not to mention Engram, Peppers and Sheppard who were not drafted by DG but fit the bill showing talent but no progression.
Show me solid steps forward (especially with Jones) and I cant get behind us being 1 offseason away from contention.
How many guys could this possibly cover?? He's going on year 3! We've seen many of teh draft picks flash last year. Slayton, Jones, Connelly among them. Does that mean they aren't going to this year because Hernandez didn't seemingly jump forward? What other draftees didn't have progression?
By the way - one of his draftees has shown quite a it of progression. McCaffery....
If they can get a boundary CB (not sold on the guys they’ve drafted the last 2 years) and another WR threat, then we’re cooking here.
If they can get a boundary CB (not sold on the guys they’ve drafted the last 2 years) and another WR threat, then we’re cooking here.
This exactly! When I opened this thread the two pieces we need to come out of the next off season with are a quality center and at least one really solid edge rusher. Someone the other team has to account for on every snap. We add those two guys and I thing this team is actually a contender.
Defense... we need a superstar impact player, ideally a pass rusher. Chase Young would have been perfect. Andrew Thomas howpfully becomes what we hoped Ereck Flowers would become... the next Tyron Smith.
Peppers, McKinney, Bradberry, Blake Martinez, Ryan Connelly, Dexter Lawerence, Leonard Willams... if we can hold onto that core for the next 3-4 years I think we will do fine building around that... just really need that alpha pass rusher more than anything else... another good corner and linebacker would help too.
Y'all understand the concept of "Cornerstone..." Right?
Quote:
Flash as rookies and then thats it. If we can acctually improve the play of our young guys we are in good shape. If not we will have more top 5 picks to talk about.
Not to mention Engram, Peppers and Sheppard who were not drafted by DG but fit the bill showing talent but no progression.
Show me solid steps forward (especially with Jones) and I cant get behind us being 1 offseason away from contention.
How many guys could this possibly cover?? He's going on year 3! We've seen many of teh draft picks flash last year. Slayton, Jones, Connelly among them. Does that mean they aren't going to this year because Hernandez didn't seemingly jump forward? What other draftees didn't have progression?
Hernandez, Carter, Hill and Beal are probably the ones being referred to.
While agree OL is the biggest issue, the team still needs to build a better more diverse set of WRs. IF Slayton didn't emerge last season they would have been in big trouble.
I think posters mention big WR because between Shepard and Tate they kind of have the same skill and attributes. Someone big on the outside provides a different mix of talent to pressure the defense.
Quote:
In comment 14932329 Dankbeerman said:
Quote:
Flash as rookies and then thats it. If we can acctually improve the play of our young guys we are in good shape. If not we will have more top 5 picks to talk about.
Not to mention Engram, Peppers and Sheppard who were not drafted by DG but fit the bill showing talent but no progression.
Show me solid steps forward (especially with Jones) and I cant get behind us being 1 offseason away from contention.
How many guys could this possibly cover?? He's going on year 3! We've seen many of teh draft picks flash last year. Slayton, Jones, Connelly among them. Does that mean they aren't going to this year because Hernandez didn't seemingly jump forward? What other draftees didn't have progression?
Hernandez, Carter, Hill and Beal are probably the ones being referred to.
And again - all from 1 draft. Not that great of a historical perspective.
Jones may be that type of player - we will know after his second season.
Thomas maybe a key to the OLine. I think the new staff will get a lot more from Hernandez and Zeitler.
IMHO, it is the coaching staff that maybe the keystone for developing the cornerstones...
Yeah, but the point is still probably the same. That's a fair amount of players too that you know the FO were thinking they were guys on the rise.
The talent still isn't there on the defense so not sure they are set up for cornerstone talk yet.
How about the team actually win some games before we say what they have.
The 2016 team was loaded on offense but couldn't score more that 20ppg!
Just because players look good for one season doesn't exactly mean they are going to build on that the second season. Seems to be that misconception that all draft picks will get player just because "some fans can feel it"..
For the season, Giants' offense scored on 28% of its drives, 30th in the league. Only Jets and Pittsburgh (sans Ben) were worse.
Long way to go; whole lot to prove.
Thomas was a good pick but Chase Young would have really helped out; having said that, to play devils advocate, Giants have been atrocious in FA and the draft with OT, so if Thomas pans out, no complains there.
I’d like the Giants to add a 2nd round type player at WR who is on the same timeline as the current core.
The other two areas where I think they need core players 1) center and 2) outside linebacker.
I’d like an offensive line that is anchored by 3 really high quality players (Thomas, Hernandez, Center) and then rounded out by league average guys can cut it.
I think the edge concept gets too much attention, and that the Giants need a 3 down linebacker who can play all three phases, and they certainly don’t have that.
The Defense will take them as far as the secondary will allow.
They have some talent back there now but need to develop
Same with the OL with the major exception of C. That foundation piece is still MIA imo.
I think the WR position will be mix and match depending on the various Defensive matchups encountered. I may be drinking the kool aide here but I expect one of the UDFA wr's to emerge and make for an impactful complement to our first three.
Lets face we are going to run the ball - a lot.
The foundation is there for that type of O with the exception of C
To answer the fundamental question - We are almost there
Top RB
High Draft choices on OL
Top picks in Defensive Backfield
Top DL
My questions are LB and WR. Not sure its necessary to be great at all positions, but it would be good to get a top LB some day before I die, and keep Slayton improving.
Seems people forget this is anew regimea no one here has any insight pn what he's gonna do, None. All we have is some interviews..
How can fans make any determination on anything if we don't know what the HC is going to do???
There are some nice pieces on the roster with potential, but I think we need to see some more on the field production that translate to W's before we know more. If the season is played, this will be a big year for the franchise in terms of seeing whether their plan is coming together. I realize this likely isn't a 10 win team, but lets see some steps forward that give us hope there is something brewing.
Quote:
In comment 14932337 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 14932329 Dankbeerman said:
Quote:
Flash as rookies and then thats it. If we can acctually improve the play of our young guys we are in good shape. If not we will have more top 5 picks to talk about.
Not to mention Engram, Peppers and Sheppard who were not drafted by DG but fit the bill showing talent but no progression.
Show me solid steps forward (especially with Jones) and I cant get behind us being 1 offseason away from contention.
How many guys could this possibly cover?? He's going on year 3! We've seen many of teh draft picks flash last year. Slayton, Jones, Connelly among them. Does that mean they aren't going to this year because Hernandez didn't seemingly jump forward? What other draftees didn't have progression?
Hernandez, Carter, Hill and Beal are probably the ones being referred to.
And again - all from 1 draft. Not that great of a historical perspective.
And I think the progression from year 1 to years 2 and 3 has much to do with the coaching staff. And as we know Shurmur’s assistants weren’t much to write home about. I think this year (I hope anyway) will be a better indicator for these young guys based on the staff that is now coaching them.
Of all the players I listed, I’d think Judge has had a hand in a number of decisions.
- Jones
- Barkley
- Hernandez
- Slayton
- Thomas - Drafted this offseason
- Engram - 5th year option this offseason
- Williams - Franchise tag given this offseason
- Lawrence
- Martinez - Signed this offseason
- Bradberry - Signed this offseason
- Mckinnley - Drafted this offseason
- Peppers - 5th year option this offseason
- Baker
Of Jones, Barkley, Hernandez, Slayton, Lawrence, and Baker — only Baker strikes me as someone who’s on the bubble.
How do fans, and more specifically people here, have any idea who what influence Joe Judge has on personal matters?
Personally, I'm having a hard time believing the entire Giants organization has turned over complete power to a first time HC with ZERO head coaching experience. I mean, seriously, people think that Judge has complete say over the roster and draft? Or if not complete, major influence. Like more than TC had???
This baffles me. I keep reading about personel and organizational moves all being attributed to a coach that probably nobody heard of until he was hired!! And save for glowing endorsements (i think every BB disciple has gotten them) and interviews, we have really no idea what he's going to be like until the games start. And i like the idea of doing something out of the box, but Wow, the level of things that are being done to Judge is remarkable. It's like Gettleman just resigned or something. Am I missing something here??
If he doesn’t, then I wouldn’t expect him to come in and his scheme and wishes to influence who’s kept. Especially among the newly acquired or young and cost controlled players.
Either way, I wouldn’t expect much movement on the 13 players I listed as the presumptive cornerstones of the team.
This is what amuses me. Belichick assistants have a horrid track record as head coaches.
I'm actually fairly optimistic about Judge, but there have been people confidently asserting that this is one of the best coaching staffs in football and I have no idea what that is based on.
How do fans, and more specifically people here, have any idea who what influence Joe Judge has on personal matters?
Personally, I'm having a hard time believing the entire Giants organization has turned over complete power to a first time HC with ZERO head coaching experience. I mean, seriously, people think that Judge has complete say over the roster and draft? Or if not complete, major influence. Like more than TC had???
This baffles me. I keep reading about personel and organizational moves all being attributed to a coach that probably nobody heard of until he was hired!! And save for glowing endorsements (i think every BB disciple has gotten them) and interviews, we have really no idea what he's going to be like until the games start. And i like the idea of doing something out of the box, but Wow, the level of things that are being done to Judge is remarkable. It's like Gettleman just resigned or something. Am I missing something here??
Spot on. I am not sure how anyone can say anything with certainty regarding Judge. He says a lot of good things, but like you said, every BB disciple has received glowing endorsements/said great things. Same thing with Jones, though he got off to a nice start, its just assumed away that he is a franchise qb. I guess its easier to make the assumption that this combo will be great rather than face that reality that it could fail - setting the Giants even further back from returning to glory.
As far as top end players, what do you think it would take?
I think it’s a true 3 down outside linebacker who can pass rush and cover, and then a high end center.
People tend to knock Joe Judge on the fact that very few of Belichick's coaching tree do well whenever they take their own coaching job. Haven't seen enough of him to be sure.
In terms of a "ring" I think they will need a couple game changers in the front 7. I think the back four be better than expected. It appears Graham likes the four man front but I am not sure they have that game changer at edge yet.
Gettleman seems to think Leonard Williams will be. Why else did he trade for him, when we were well on our way to a losing season, already had two run-stuffing defensive tackles, and he's made negligible effort to improve the pass rush over 3 years?
How do fans, and more specifically people here, have any idea who what influence Joe Judge has on personal matters?
Personally, I'm having a hard time believing the entire Giants organization has turned over complete power to a first time HC with ZERO head coaching experience. I mean, seriously, people think that Judge has complete say over the roster and draft? Or if not complete, major influence. Like more than TC had???
This baffles me. I keep reading about personel and organizational moves all being attributed to a coach that probably nobody heard of until he was hired!! And save for glowing endorsements (i think every BB disciple has gotten them) and interviews, we have really no idea what he's going to be like until the games start. And i like the idea of doing something out of the box, but Wow, the level of things that are being done to Judge is remarkable. It's like Gettleman just resigned or something. Am I missing something here??
Maybe people think of Vince Lombardi, who took both head coach and general manager duties, then led his team to a winning season his first year, a championship-worthy team the next, and a championship in their third year?
Quote:
Not buying the “scheming pressure” bullshit. The OL is still shitty until proven otherwise on the field.
As far as top end players, what do you think it would take?
I think it’s a true 3 down outside linebacker who can pass rush and cover, and then a high end center.
They need an elite ER and someone decent opposite. One elite ER may be ok given the makeup of the DL.
OL is a huge question mark. At the end of the 20 season the fans may be happy with what the Giants have or be calling for 3 new starters. Really have no idea until the playing starts.