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Do the Giants Have the Cornerstones for a Championship?

christian : 7/12/2020 11:44 pm
Not are they going to win this year, but do you think this is the core that will get them their next ring? Say over the next 3 years, are these pillars, or do the Giants need more foundational guys.

Top 10 pick QB, top 2 pick RB, top 5 pick LT, top 25 pick TE, rookie stand out WR, 2nd round guard, on offense.

On defense all rookie top 20 pick DT, big time acquisition at DT, 1st round corner, big time UFA corner, former 1st round safety, 2nd round safety, big time UFA middle linebacker.
Nope  
adamg : 7/12/2020 11:48 pm : link
I wish
RE: Nope  
christian : 7/12/2020 11:50 pm : link
In comment 14932303 adamg said:
Quote:
I wish


What do you think is missing?
Need a big receiver  
Phil in LA : 7/13/2020 12:41 am : link
and playmakers to emerge or be acquired on D.
Against well-coached teams, you're only as strong as your  
CT Charlie : 7/13/2020 12:42 am : link
weakest link. Our O-line is unproven and our d-backs are suspect. I'll get back to you after 10 games.
RE: Need a big receiver  
Optimus-NY : 7/13/2020 12:57 am : link
In comment 14932310 Phil in LA said:
Quote:
and playmakers to emerge or be acquired on D.


Agreed. Fix the OL and win the LoS on both sides. Rush the passer. A premier edge rusher is especially needed. Then a big play WR.
It all depends  
allstarjim : 7/13/2020 1:26 am : link
On how good Jones becomes. If he becomes a top 8 or so QB, then yes. There is reason to hope there because his audition season was as good as you could hope for.
This offense can score......but defense has much to prove  
George from PA : 7/13/2020 4:52 am : link
Way too much unproven talent that potentially can deliver, but no way to know and unfortunately, with limited practice....they won't know what they are doing for awhile.
Have seen a lot of guys DG drafted  
Dankbeerman : 7/13/2020 6:57 am : link
Flash as rookies and then thats it. If we can acctually improve the play of our young guys we are in good shape. If not we will have more top 5 picks to talk about.

Not to mention Engram, Peppers and Sheppard who were not drafted by DG but fit the bill showing talent but no progression.

Show me solid steps forward (especially with Jones) and I cant get behind us being 1 offseason away from contention.
y'all too focused on the players  
Giantsfan79 : 7/13/2020 7:05 am : link
the real question is how much BB and Nick Saban are in Joe Judge. If Judge's game-plan and coaching ability can come close to those two, we could win with less talented players then you may think.
We have a lot of good young talent - especially on offense.  
Ira : 7/13/2020 7:09 am : link
We need a couple of players on offense and a few on defense. But some of these may already be on the team.
Need an Edge Rusher, a stable OL  
LBH15 : 7/13/2020 7:15 am : link
and more dynamic WR. Might still need different pieces in the Secondary.

So the answer is "No".
The big WR thing is So overblown  
Tuckrule : 7/13/2020 7:21 am : link
It’s become the go to for every giant fan. It’s a false narrative. This offense is absolutely fine with the weapons they have. The offense performed very well last year missing many pieces with a makeshift offensive line. The issue is the offensive line that is the only thing holding the offense back. It isn’t a big body WR. We have Engram, Barkley, Shepard, Tate and slayton. That’s plenty in today’s nfl. We need a Defense and an offensive line.
I think they  
Lines of Scrimmage : 7/13/2020 7:24 am : link
are well on their way to stepping up in the division. I have a really good feeling Thomas is going to be the goods and the OL starts to come around. The big questions that remain for me are how does Jones perform in big games and is Judge going to be the coach to get the most out of the players?

In terms of a "ring" I think they will need a couple game changers in the front 7. I think the back four be better than expected. It appears Graham likes the four man front but I am not sure they have that game changer at edge yet.
RE: Have seen a lot of guys DG drafted  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/13/2020 7:26 am : link
In comment 14932329 Dankbeerman said:
Quote:
Flash as rookies and then thats it. If we can acctually improve the play of our young guys we are in good shape. If not we will have more top 5 picks to talk about.

Not to mention Engram, Peppers and Sheppard who were not drafted by DG but fit the bill showing talent but no progression.

Show me solid steps forward (especially with Jones) and I cant get behind us being 1 offseason away from contention.


How many guys could this possibly cover?? He's going on year 3! We've seen many of teh draft picks flash last year. Slayton, Jones, Connelly among them. Does that mean they aren't going to this year because Hernandez didn't seemingly jump forward? What other draftees didn't have progression?

By the way - one of his draftees has shown quite a it of progression. McCaffery....
They still need an alpha and a beta for pass rush.  
The_Boss : 7/13/2020 7:27 am : link
And a quality center to be the leader of the OL. If they can develop a “beta” pass rusher this year from what they have, they might be able to fill the rest next offseason.

If they can get a boundary CB (not sold on the guys they’ve drafted the last 2 years) and another WR threat, then we’re cooking here.
RE: They still need an alpha and a beta for pass rush.  
JFIB : 7/13/2020 7:57 am : link
In comment 14932338 The_Boss said:
Quote:
And a quality center to be the leader of the OL. If they can develop a “beta” pass rusher this year from what they have, they might be able to fill the rest next offseason.

If they can get a boundary CB (not sold on the guys they’ve drafted the last 2 years) and another WR threat, then we’re cooking here.


This exactly! When I opened this thread the two pieces we need to come out of the next off season with are a quality center and at least one really solid edge rusher. Someone the other team has to account for on every snap. We add those two guys and I thing this team is actually a contender.
Not on defense  
90.Cal : 7/13/2020 8:12 am : link
But we have a franchise QB, a potential all time great talent at RB, good receivers (Tate, Shep, Slay, Engram) and a young OL that has potential to develop into one of the better units after a season or two under their belts, together.

Defense... we need a superstar impact player, ideally a pass rusher. Chase Young would have been perfect. Andrew Thomas howpfully becomes what we hoped Ereck Flowers would become... the next Tyron Smith.

Peppers, McKinney, Bradberry, Blake Martinez, Ryan Connelly, Dexter Lawerence, Leonard Willams... if we can hold onto that core for the next 3-4 years I think we will do fine building around that... just really need that alpha pass rusher more than anything else... another good corner and linebacker would help too.
Absolutely...  
Brown_Hornet : 7/13/2020 8:19 am : link
...!

Y'all understand the concept of "Cornerstone..." Right?
RE: RE: Have seen a lot of guys DG drafted  
LBH15 : 7/13/2020 8:21 am : link
In comment 14932337 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 14932329 Dankbeerman said:


Quote:


Flash as rookies and then thats it. If we can acctually improve the play of our young guys we are in good shape. If not we will have more top 5 picks to talk about.

Not to mention Engram, Peppers and Sheppard who were not drafted by DG but fit the bill showing talent but no progression.

Show me solid steps forward (especially with Jones) and I cant get behind us being 1 offseason away from contention.



How many guys could this possibly cover?? He's going on year 3! We've seen many of teh draft picks flash last year. Slayton, Jones, Connelly among them. Does that mean they aren't going to this year because Hernandez didn't seemingly jump forward? What other draftees didn't have progression?



Hernandez, Carter, Hill and Beal are probably the ones being referred to.
RE: The big WR thing is So overblown  
LBH15 : 7/13/2020 8:24 am : link
In comment 14932335 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
It’s become the go to for every giant fan. It’s a false narrative. This offense is absolutely fine with the weapons they have. The offense performed very well last year missing many pieces with a makeshift offensive line. The issue is the offensive line that is the only thing holding the offense back. It isn’t a big body WR. We have Engram, Barkley, Shepard, Tate and slayton. That’s plenty in today’s nfl. We need a Defense and an offensive line.


While agree OL is the biggest issue, the team still needs to build a better more diverse set of WRs. IF Slayton didn't emerge last season they would have been in big trouble.

I think posters mention big WR because between Shepard and Tate they kind of have the same skill and attributes. Someone big on the outside provides a different mix of talent to pressure the defense.
RE: RE: RE: Have seen a lot of guys DG drafted  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/13/2020 8:32 am : link
In comment 14932351 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In comment 14932337 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


In comment 14932329 Dankbeerman said:


Quote:


Flash as rookies and then thats it. If we can acctually improve the play of our young guys we are in good shape. If not we will have more top 5 picks to talk about.

Not to mention Engram, Peppers and Sheppard who were not drafted by DG but fit the bill showing talent but no progression.

Show me solid steps forward (especially with Jones) and I cant get behind us being 1 offseason away from contention.



How many guys could this possibly cover?? He's going on year 3! We've seen many of teh draft picks flash last year. Slayton, Jones, Connelly among them. Does that mean they aren't going to this year because Hernandez didn't seemingly jump forward? What other draftees didn't have progression?





Hernandez, Carter, Hill and Beal are probably the ones being referred to.


And again - all from 1 draft. Not that great of a historical perspective.
Not to mention..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/13/2020 8:32 am : link
Beal didn't even play year 1!
They may have  
section125 : 7/13/2020 8:43 am : link
some players that could be cornerstones..Barkley certainly is that type of player.

Jones may be that type of player - we will know after his second season.

Thomas maybe a key to the OLine. I think the new staff will get a lot more from Hernandez and Zeitler.

IMHO, it is the coaching staff that maybe the keystone for developing the cornerstones...
Seems we're off to a pretty good start  
BillT : 7/13/2020 8:55 am : link
QB is #1 and Jones is certainly promising. Like Jones though, there is a lot of talent that could work out but that we don't have enough information about yet. Lawrence, Connelly, Carter, Ximines, Baker, Love, McKinney, Thomas, Hernandez, Peart, Lemieux, Gates, Smith, Slayton. Love this group but they have to prove themselves on the field.
RE: Not to mention..  
LBH15 : 7/13/2020 8:59 am : link
In comment 14932355 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Beal didn't even play year 1!


Yeah, but the point is still probably the same. That's a fair amount of players too that you know the FO were thinking they were guys on the rise.
It really comes down to progression with Jones  
LBH15 : 7/13/2020 9:01 am : link
and better OLine play.

The talent still isn't there on the defense so not sure they are set up for cornerstone talk yet.
This is the same argument every off season  
GManinDC : 7/13/2020 9:12 am : link
The Giants have the best ......

How about the team actually win some games before we say what they have.

The 2016 team was loaded on offense but couldn't score more that 20ppg!

Just because players look good for one season doesn't exactly mean they are going to build on that the second season. Seems to be that misconception that all draft picks will get player just because "some fans can feel it"..
13, 14, 17, 17  
shyster : 7/13/2020 9:16 am : link
That's how many points the Giants' offense scored in its last four losses of 2019. Running up stats vs other bottom-dwellers playing out the string doesn't mean much.

For the season, Giants' offense scored on 28% of its drives, 30th in the league. Only Jets and Pittsburgh (sans Ben) were worse.

Long way to go; whole lot to prove.

No  
Sonic Youth : 7/13/2020 9:19 am : link
The secondary is unproven, and Jones hasn't shown he's the slam dunk answer yet. Barkleys shelf life is unknown at this point. But while these are issues, at least theres a shot they resolve themselves. The two bigger problems are WR and Pass Rush. WR might be easier to address out of the two.

Thomas was a good pick but Chase Young would have really helped out; having said that, to play devils advocate, Giants have been atrocious in FA and the draft with OT, so if Thomas pans out, no complains there.
No idea.  
NoPeanutz : 7/13/2020 9:31 am : link
I don't know if they have the cornerstones to win 5 games. But I hope so.
...  
christian : 7/13/2020 10:05 am : link
The Giants don’t need to add a top end receiver, but it’s an area where the current group as constructed won’t be there for a championship run. Golden Tate isn’t and Shepard unfortunately might not be here in 2-3 years.

I’d like the Giants to add a 2nd round type player at WR who is on the same timeline as the current core.

The other two areas where I think they need core players 1) center and 2) outside linebacker.

I’d like an offensive line that is anchored by 3 really high quality players (Thomas, Hernandez, Center) and then rounded out by league average guys can cut it.

I think the edge concept gets too much attention, and that the Giants need a 3 down linebacker who can play all three phases, and they certainly don’t have that.
I think they are close  
ChicagoMarty : 7/13/2020 10:08 am : link
when you consider they are following the Patriots blueprint

The Defense will take them as far as the secondary will allow.
They have some talent back there now but need to develop

Same with the OL with the major exception of C. That foundation piece is still MIA imo.

I think the WR position will be mix and match depending on the various Defensive matchups encountered. I may be drinking the kool aide here but I expect one of the UDFA wr's to emerge and make for an impactful complement to our first three.

Lets face we are going to run the ball - a lot.

The foundation is there for that type of O with the exception of C

To answer the fundamental question - We are almost there
I really do - as long as the players improve as adverstised  
PatersonPlank : 7/13/2020 10:18 am : link
Top QB
Top RB
High Draft choices on OL
Top picks in Defensive Backfield
Top DL

My questions are LB and WR. Not sure its necessary to be great at all positions, but it would be good to get a top LB some day before I die, and keep Slayton improving.
I have a question  
GManinDC : 7/13/2020 10:20 am : link
Do we know if Coach Judge is gonna keep these players, that are being talked about? Suppose he comes in and decides he wants to rid himself of some players that maybe don't fit his scheme?

Seems people forget this is anew regimea no one here has any insight pn what he's gonna do, None. All we have is some interviews..

How can fans make any determination on anything if we don't know what the HC is going to do???
We Don't Know Yet  
lax counsel : 7/13/2020 11:18 am : link
A lot will depend on Jones. If he's a legitimate team carrying franchise qb, then the Giants will be infinitely closer than they were last year. If he regresses or does not improve, they are far away because they may not have their qb.

There are some nice pieces on the roster with potential, but I think we need to see some more on the field production that translate to W's before we know more. If the season is played, this will be a big year for the franchise in terms of seeing whether their plan is coming together. I realize this likely isn't a 10 win team, but lets see some steps forward that give us hope there is something brewing.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Have seen a lot of guys DG drafted  
10thAve : 7/13/2020 11:59 am : link
In comment 14932354 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 14932351 LBH15 said:


Quote:


In comment 14932337 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


In comment 14932329 Dankbeerman said:


Quote:


Flash as rookies and then thats it. If we can acctually improve the play of our young guys we are in good shape. If not we will have more top 5 picks to talk about.

Not to mention Engram, Peppers and Sheppard who were not drafted by DG but fit the bill showing talent but no progression.

Show me solid steps forward (especially with Jones) and I cant get behind us being 1 offseason away from contention.



How many guys could this possibly cover?? He's going on year 3! We've seen many of teh draft picks flash last year. Slayton, Jones, Connelly among them. Does that mean they aren't going to this year because Hernandez didn't seemingly jump forward? What other draftees didn't have progression?





Hernandez, Carter, Hill and Beal are probably the ones being referred to.



And again - all from 1 draft. Not that great of a historical perspective.

And I think the progression from year 1 to years 2 and 3 has much to do with the coaching staff. And as we know Shurmur’s assistants weren’t much to write home about. I think this year (I hope anyway) will be a better indicator for these young guys based on the staff that is now coaching them.
Sure doesn't look like it at the moment  
Greg from LI : 7/13/2020 12:19 pm : link
Particularly on defense. We'll see what happens, though.
Magic 8 Ball says...  
morrison40 : 7/13/2020 12:19 pm : link
“Ask Again Later “
RE: I have a question  
christian : 7/13/2020 1:45 pm : link
In comment 14932425 GManinDC said:
Quote:
Do we know if Coach Judge is gonna keep these players, that are being talked about? Suppose he comes in and decides he wants to rid himself of some players that maybe don't fit his scheme?


Of all the players I listed, I’d think Judge has had a hand in a number of decisions.

- Jones
- Barkley
- Hernandez
- Slayton
- Thomas - Drafted this offseason
- Engram - 5th year option this offseason
- Williams - Franchise tag given this offseason
- Lawrence
- Martinez - Signed this offseason
- Bradberry - Signed this offseason
- Mckinnley - Drafted this offseason
- Peppers - 5th year option this offseason
- Baker

Of Jones, Barkley, Hernandez, Slayton, Lawrence, and Baker — only Baker strikes me as someone who’s on the bubble.
I have a question..  
GManinDC : 7/13/2020 1:59 pm : link
And I thought about starting a thread on this.

How do fans, and more specifically people here, have any idea who what influence Joe Judge has on personal matters?

Personally, I'm having a hard time believing the entire Giants organization has turned over complete power to a first time HC with ZERO head coaching experience. I mean, seriously, people think that Judge has complete say over the roster and draft? Or if not complete, major influence. Like more than TC had???

This baffles me. I keep reading about personel and organizational moves all being attributed to a coach that probably nobody heard of until he was hired!! And save for glowing endorsements (i think every BB disciple has gotten them) and interviews, we have really no idea what he's going to be like until the games start. And i like the idea of doing something out of the box, but Wow, the level of things that are being done to Judge is remarkable. It's like Gettleman just resigned or something. Am I missing something here??
...  
christian : 7/13/2020 2:12 pm : link
He either does or doesn’t influence the roster. If he does, presumably he’s had a hand in the many decisions made this offseason.

If he doesn’t, then I wouldn’t expect him to come in and his scheme and wishes to influence who’s kept. Especially among the newly acquired or young and cost controlled players.

Either way, I wouldn’t expect much movement on the 13 players I listed as the presumptive cornerstones of the team.
RE: I have a question..  
Greg from LI : 7/13/2020 2:54 pm : link
In comment 14932561 GManinDC said:
Quote:
And save for glowing endorsements (i think every BB disciple has gotten them) and interviews, we have really no idea what he's going to be like until the games start.


This is what amuses me. Belichick assistants have a horrid track record as head coaches.

I'm actually fairly optimistic about Judge, but there have been people confidently asserting that this is one of the best coaching staffs in football and I have no idea what that is based on.
...  
christian : 7/13/2020 3:00 pm : link
Both Judge and Graham have a bunch to prove. Garret has at least demonstrably succeeded at the gig he holds.
RE: I have a question..  
lax counsel : 7/13/2020 3:01 pm : link
In comment 14932561 GManinDC said:
Quote:
And I thought about starting a thread on this.

How do fans, and more specifically people here, have any idea who what influence Joe Judge has on personal matters?

Personally, I'm having a hard time believing the entire Giants organization has turned over complete power to a first time HC with ZERO head coaching experience. I mean, seriously, people think that Judge has complete say over the roster and draft? Or if not complete, major influence. Like more than TC had???

This baffles me. I keep reading about personel and organizational moves all being attributed to a coach that probably nobody heard of until he was hired!! And save for glowing endorsements (i think every BB disciple has gotten them) and interviews, we have really no idea what he's going to be like until the games start. And i like the idea of doing something out of the box, but Wow, the level of things that are being done to Judge is remarkable. It's like Gettleman just resigned or something. Am I missing something here??


Spot on. I am not sure how anyone can say anything with certainty regarding Judge. He says a lot of good things, but like you said, every BB disciple has received glowing endorsements/said great things. Same thing with Jones, though he got off to a nice start, its just assumed away that he is a franchise qb. I guess its easier to make the assumption that this combo will be great rather than face that reality that it could fail - setting the Giants even further back from returning to glory.
personnel  
GManinDC : 7/13/2020 3:04 pm : link
not personal
They need to be able to:  
thrunthrublue : 7/13/2020 3:08 pm : link
Create havoc with their defense, stop opposing offenses from getting third down conversions......must have edge rushers, speedy linebackers and situation smart safeties along with shut down corners. Last year’s defensive strategy was conceived in a Swiss cheese factory. Let’s see what new attitude and execution coach judge and his staff will bring to the either 2020 or, with COVID still spiking, 2021 giants.
They need high end pass rushers  
WillVAB : 7/14/2020 11:41 am : link
Not buying the “scheming pressure” bullshit. The OL is still shitty until proven otherwise on the field.
RE: They need high end pass rushers  
christian : 7/14/2020 12:24 pm : link
In comment 14932993 WillVAB said:
Quote:
Not buying the “scheming pressure” bullshit. The OL is still shitty until proven otherwise on the field.


As far as top end players, what do you think it would take?

I think it’s a true 3 down outside linebacker who can pass rush and cover, and then a high end center.
RE: y'all too focused on the players  
Angel Eyes : 7/14/2020 2:39 pm : link
In comment 14932332 Giantsfan79 said:
Quote:
the real question is how much BB and Nick Saban are in Joe Judge. If Judge's game-plan and coaching ability can come close to those two, we could win with less talented players then you may think.

People tend to knock Joe Judge on the fact that very few of Belichick's coaching tree do well whenever they take their own coaching job. Haven't seen enough of him to be sure.
RE: I think they  
Angel Eyes : 7/14/2020 2:43 pm : link
In comment 14932336 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
are well on their way to stepping up in the division. I have a really good feeling Thomas is going to be the goods and the OL starts to come around. The big questions that remain for me are how does Jones perform in big games and is Judge going to be the coach to get the most out of the players?

In terms of a "ring" I think they will need a couple game changers in the front 7. I think the back four be better than expected. It appears Graham likes the four man front but I am not sure they have that game changer at edge yet.

Gettleman seems to think Leonard Williams will be. Why else did he trade for him, when we were well on our way to a losing season, already had two run-stuffing defensive tackles, and he's made negligible effort to improve the pass rush over 3 years?
RE: I have a question..  
Angel Eyes : 7/14/2020 2:46 pm : link
In comment 14932561 GManinDC said:
Quote:
And I thought about starting a thread on this.

How do fans, and more specifically people here, have any idea who what influence Joe Judge has on personal matters?

Personally, I'm having a hard time believing the entire Giants organization has turned over complete power to a first time HC with ZERO head coaching experience. I mean, seriously, people think that Judge has complete say over the roster and draft? Or if not complete, major influence. Like more than TC had???

This baffles me. I keep reading about personel and organizational moves all being attributed to a coach that probably nobody heard of until he was hired!! And save for glowing endorsements (i think every BB disciple has gotten them) and interviews, we have really no idea what he's going to be like until the games start. And i like the idea of doing something out of the box, but Wow, the level of things that are being done to Judge is remarkable. It's like Gettleman just resigned or something. Am I missing something here??


Maybe people think of Vince Lombardi, who took both head coach and general manager duties, then led his team to a winning season his first year, a championship-worthy team the next, and a championship in their third year?
They have a promising young core  
Beer Man : 7/14/2020 5:45 pm : link
But they would all have to reach their potential which is never a given in the NFL
RE: RE: They need high end pass rushers  
WillVAB : 7/14/2020 9:46 pm : link
In comment 14933016 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14932993 WillVAB said:


Quote:


Not buying the “scheming pressure” bullshit. The OL is still shitty until proven otherwise on the field.



As far as top end players, what do you think it would take?

I think it’s a true 3 down outside linebacker who can pass rush and cover, and then a high end center.


They need an elite ER and someone decent opposite. One elite ER may be ok given the makeup of the DL.

OL is a huge question mark. At the end of the 20 season the fans may be happy with what the Giants have or be calling for 3 new starters. Really have no idea until the playing starts.
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