As to why all these different moves with players, draft picks, FA etc, are being attributed to Judge? It's almost if the entire organization has been handed over to a First time HC and everyone else, Owner, GM. and the VP or Player Personnel all just ceded power to him.
Now, Jusge can turn out to be a very successful HC and have a long career, but I just don't understand the constant citing of personnel moves that are claimed to be influenced by him. I'm all for optimism. I have no feel on him one way or another because I don't know anything about him, but what he speaks and what others speak of him.
Maybe I missed something since he's been hired that has changed. Correct me if I'm wrong but did TC have this must say over personnel matters?? I alwyas thought he did but many thought he didn't.
I'm kinda just looking for solid justification and not just the basic "Well he preached this" or 'In Finding Giants documentary". He sounds very appealing and intriguing in his interviews. I am glad they went this route instead of a status quo HC. But I just can't over how many things that he "has influenced".
to fill time and space before there's some actual football to write about...but I wish they'd come up with someone other that Geoff Schwartz as their go to for space filling fluff quotes.
If we're going to think about whether Judge might have an advantage bc he's not overly focused on one side of the ball or the other, how about finding someone who played for Harbaugh in his early Ravens days to ask, rather than a big mouth who spent most of his Giants career in the trainer's room
This article was the exact article written when he was hired
That is very true! It's been some epic battles on threads when people "claim" to know the power structure. I don't think the beats even know.
The closest that I have been able to gather is that it's at leat 4 people that are in the decision making process. The HC would make 5
And in the aftermath of TC, McAdoo and shurmur, we've seen examples of the HC having influence, examples of the GM making a final call, and examples of ownership having influence.
There is no one voice making decisions and it is likely fluid depending on the player and the situation.
it's not that cloudy the HC is usually 1 of the loudest voices
in any organization. Especially organizations in the midst of philosophical shifts. Is that really surprising? I mean Mara literally talked about buying into the vision presented by Judge when he hired him.
Wouldn't it be a lot weirder (and worse) if Judge wasn't strongly involved in the direction the franchise is going with everything they do? Or if moves they made ran counter to what he's professed to want from his roster?
I agree with it and we have seen those examples. I just can't figure out, when I read some posts, that people credit any changes made as being a direct reflection on the HC.
Sometimes you wish it was clearer to fans so we can properly attribute things to. But like Eric said, no one is sure.
Did you beleive that TC had that much control?. or McAddo, or Schurmur?
There is an easy answer to this that people refuse to listen to. It's collaborative. Draft picks, cuts, free agents, etc. They all work together. That is great to share responsibility but when things go wrong fingers start to point.
Now, to make a comment on your comment, there is a difference between Reese and Gettleman to me with respect to this. Tom Coughlin showed his frustration in the past with specific things. I think Reese, for the most part, had final say. You can see that with the trend of players he acquired.
Gettleman is different to me. Look at Shurmur and Judge. Gettleman has very clearly brought in players his coaches have wanted. Look at the ex-Viking or whoever were brought in. A ton of players had a connection to Shurmur or other coaches on the staff. Look at Judge with Garrett and Graham. Judge got players he worked with. Garrett got Fleming and that QB. Graham got Martinez and Fackrell (sp?).
Gettleman has been very accommodating to his coaches in FA. The draft? That's a more intriguing question. There were comments that there were certain "discussions" and not everybody always agreed. That's a good thing. No one can say for certain but I think when it came to the end of the draft we saw Judge's influence because of the ability of these guys to play specials. Again, we can't say for sure but Judge definitely had an influence as it should be. And I will say this again too, collaboration is great ... when it works. You need the right values, grading system, etc. to evaluate these players. When it doesn't work then you get the blame game that we saw with Coughlin and Reese.
That has been spiraling downward for the better part of a decade.
Wouldn’t you be looking for a new maybe better way of going about things. The Giants have been mired in haplessness, it would be my guess Judge is having a very big voice in all things football.
Now, to make a comment on your comment, there is a difference between Reese and Gettleman to me with respect to this. Tom Coughlin showed his frustration in the past with specific things. I think Reese, for the most part, had final say. You can see that with the trend of players he acquired.
This is kind of my point. What are you basing this off? There has ALWAYS been a committe on draft picks and other personnel moves. There is nothing that says Reese had final say. IMO, that's been group think for years.
What frustration has TC showed in tha past? Outside of people "speculating" on BBI, there was never any signs of TC and Reese having any issues..
Now, to make a comment on your comment, there is a difference between Reese and Gettleman to me with respect to this. Tom Coughlin showed his frustration in the past with specific things. I think Reese, for the most part, had final say. You can see that with the trend of players he acquired.
This is kind of my point. What are you basing this off? There has ALWAYS been a committe on draft picks and other personnel moves. There is nothing that says Reese had final say. IMO, that's been group think for years.
What frustration has TC showed in tha past? Outside of people "speculating" on BBI, there was never any signs of TC and Reese having any issues..
Mara chose Reese over Coughlin. Coughlin felt he was taking all the blame when all the blame was his. There is a reason he didn't shake Mara's hand. There were problems there.
with TC and Mara. The non hand shake says a lot. And Mara turned around and stated that "TC agreed with every draft pick the made". So either Mara was lying or TC was very much involved with the draft.
But how is Reese lumped in? Because the Owner made the decision to retain the GM and fire the HC is nothing new. Now, It should have been done at the same time. But I think Reese get tarnished a lot and really has taken the most blame, and he should take a lot, but that's been beaten to death.
IMO, the way the organization makes decisions, and I like the way FMiC stated it, It's fluid, depending on the situation and the player.
What my hope is, this change is coming from the Owner, on how they conduct bsuiness operations and they are changing the model. If it's just the coach influence, what happens if he leaves or don't start winning fast enough? Do we go back to status quo?
with TC and Mara. The non hand shake says a lot. And Mara turned around and stated that "TC agreed with every draft pick the made". So either Mara was lying or TC was very much involved with the draft.
But how is Reese lumped in? Because the Owner made the decision to retain the GM and fire the HC is nothing new. Now, It should have been done at the same time. But I think Reese get tarnished a lot and really has taken the most blame, and he should take a lot, but that's been beaten to death.
IMO, the way the organization makes decisions, and I like the way FMiC stated it, It's fluid, depending on the situation and the player.
What my hope is, this change is coming from the Owner, on how they conduct bsuiness operations and they are changing the model. If it's just the coach influence, what happens if he leaves or don't start winning fast enough? Do we go back to status quo?
It's more than just draft picks. It's how they work together. Like I said, when it works it works well. When it doesn't there are fingers being pointed. Coughlin knew he was on the hot seat. He wasn't surprised he was fired. He knew it was coming. He was on the hot seat more than he wasn't in NY. So why was he so upset? There was more than just him being let go. He felt he was taking all the blame.
with TC and Mara. The non hand shake says a lot. And Mara turned around and stated that "TC agreed with every draft pick the made". So either Mara was lying or TC was very much involved with the draft.
Is that statement correct about TC agreeing with the picks? I have heard quite differently so not sure if that is some generalization to make it seem like he went along.
That was no secret. But like I'm saying, there is no proof of him and Reese. That's TC and Mara. What you're saying, is what has been generalized for years.
And it worked well for many years, not just the 2 SB's years. Situation was gong to end badly one way or another. You had a HC and QB who were beginning to decline and organization that was still trying to squeeze 1 more run..
I have to find the quote again. It's been posted but never expounded on. Another poster posted it before. Let me dig for it..
I have read (and heard some via an ex-assistant) that TC gave some input on scouting and also on draft targets but that Final Say was without question on Reese. It wasn't like a consensus was formed in the room at all.
And moreso that TC and his assistants were often disenchanted with those ultimate picks and basically looked at each other and said "this is the hand we were dealt".
Also agree with sentiments you all noted above that TC felt he was getting all the blame when he got fired but Reese was allowed to keep his job. And that didn't sit well with him therefore no handshake.
Mara's primary reason for keeping Reese on board for a bit longer was because he couldn't entirely clean house in his mind, and went with the guy who helped/led creation of the roster that won 2 superbowls versus the HC.
Q. What differentiates Tom from a general manager in that thought process?
JOHN MARA: Listen, Tom said we win as a team, we lose as a team. Everybody's involved in those personnel decisions. We obviously missed the boat. Some of our draft classes were not as productive as we hoped they would be. I think that's primarily the cause of why we're standing here today talking about this.
Q. John, are you open to a new head coach who is going to come in and might want to have more of a say in personnel?
JOHN MARA: You say 'more of a say.' This coach had as much of a say as any head coach we ever had. I cannot think of any personnel decisions that we made in the last 12 years that Tom was against. He did not have any players forced upon him at all.
They worked together very, very well. They had a great respect. There was a mutual respect there. I mean, it was very, very rare they had any disagreements about personnel.
No worries. I have a feeling you won't or it will be
different shades of grey in the wording anyway. I think TC always wanted to be involved more (or have more skin in the game) with regards to final player personnel decisions, especially as the ship was taking on water. But he wasn't given that leeway, nor do any of us have any idea whether it would have made a bit of difference.
Relative to coaching, I think it was okay that TC lost his job. First of all, he was no spring chicken and I think the years and the losing we getting to him as noted with some of his desperate coaching moves at the end of games in that final year.
How Reese was able to stay on is just an example of poor leadership and decision making at the top.
Nice job digging for it. I think Mara went a bridge too far
It wasn't like it was a trick question. And that statement was NEVER disputed by any of the parties involved. This is reason why, when people post about TC not having any decison making input, I call BS.
It wasn't like it was a trick question. And that statement was NEVER disputed by any of the parties involved. This is reason why, when people post about TC not having any decison making input, I call BS.
Maybe. But I also think they don't do the he said/she said at that level in public.
And not being against a personnel decision although being more in favor of a different one is probably what the crux is about.
all have some grey to it. And that the parties aren't going to elevate it into a pissing match as to "how" involved TC was in such decisions.
With the only one left standing in this decade-long train wreck being John Mara, its pretty obvious it doesn't matter. Unless he keeps making and/or allowing those poor decisions in running this team.
Did you beleive that TC had that much control?. or McAddo, or Schurmur?
Late response but control isn't the right word - input is. As Robbie said just about every single season of hard knocks ever has shown that building a roster is a collaborative process so yes, if those other HC's felt strongly I think they could have had a large impact on who the team pursued. I think Coughlin had a pretty loud voice because the drafts in particular got noticeably better when he stepped in for Fassel. Like a lot better. they stopped picking guys like Hatch, Dixon, and Shiancoe in the first 3 rounds and stuck to more power 5 prospects.
McAdoo as a first time head coach I think likely deferred to Reese more than the others. Shurmur I believe had a ton of input in the selection of a QB and the scouting of all the guys in both 18 and 19. I assume his defensive coordinator had a ton of input on the pickups on defense or else it was a hell of a coincidence that we ended up with so many guys from AZ.
Now, Jusge can turn out to be a very successful HC and have a long career, but I just don't understand the constant citing of personnel moves that are claimed to be influenced by him. I'm all for optimism. I have no feel on him one way or another because I don't know anything about him, but what he speaks and what others speak of him.
Maybe I missed something since he's been hired that has changed. Correct me if I'm wrong but did TC have this must say over personnel matters?? I alwyas thought he did but many thought he didn't.
I'm kinda just looking for solid justification and not just the basic "Well he preached this" or 'In Finding Giants documentary". He sounds very appealing and intriguing in his interviews. I am glad they went this route instead of a status quo HC. But I just can't over how many things that he "has influenced".
If we're going to think about whether Judge might have an advantage bc he's not overly focused on one side of the ball or the other, how about finding someone who played for Harbaugh in his early Ravens days to ask, rather than a big mouth who spent most of his Giants career in the trainer's room
The closest that I have been able to gather is that it's at leat 4 people that are in the decision making process. The HC would make 5
The closest that I have been able to gather is that it's at leat 4 people that are in the decision making process. The HC would make 5
And in the aftermath of TC, McAdoo and shurmur, we've seen examples of the HC having influence, examples of the GM making a final call, and examples of ownership having influence.
There is no one voice making decisions and it is likely fluid depending on the player and the situation.
Wouldn't it be a lot weirder (and worse) if Judge wasn't strongly involved in the direction the franchise is going with everything they do? Or if moves they made ran counter to what he's professed to want from his roster?
Sometimes you wish it was clearer to fans so we can properly attribute things to. But like Eric said, no one is sure.
There is an easy answer to this that people refuse to listen to. It's collaborative. Draft picks, cuts, free agents, etc. They all work together. That is great to share responsibility but when things go wrong fingers start to point.
Now, to make a comment on your comment, there is a difference between Reese and Gettleman to me with respect to this. Tom Coughlin showed his frustration in the past with specific things. I think Reese, for the most part, had final say. You can see that with the trend of players he acquired.
Gettleman is different to me. Look at Shurmur and Judge. Gettleman has very clearly brought in players his coaches have wanted. Look at the ex-Viking or whoever were brought in. A ton of players had a connection to Shurmur or other coaches on the staff. Look at Judge with Garrett and Graham. Judge got players he worked with. Garrett got Fleming and that QB. Graham got Martinez and Fackrell (sp?).
Gettleman has been very accommodating to his coaches in FA. The draft? That's a more intriguing question. There were comments that there were certain "discussions" and not everybody always agreed. That's a good thing. No one can say for certain but I think when it came to the end of the draft we saw Judge's influence because of the ability of these guys to play specials. Again, we can't say for sure but Judge definitely had an influence as it should be. And I will say this again too, collaboration is great ... when it works. You need the right values, grading system, etc. to evaluate these players. When it doesn't work then you get the blame game that we saw with Coughlin and Reese.
Wouldn’t you be looking for a new maybe better way of going about things. The Giants have been mired in haplessness, it would be my guess Judge is having a very big voice in all things football.
This is kind of my point. What are you basing this off? There has ALWAYS been a committe on draft picks and other personnel moves. There is nothing that says Reese had final say. IMO, that's been group think for years.
What frustration has TC showed in tha past? Outside of people "speculating" on BBI, there was never any signs of TC and Reese having any issues..
This is kind of my point. What are you basing this off? There has ALWAYS been a committe on draft picks and other personnel moves. There is nothing that says Reese had final say. IMO, that's been group think for years.
What frustration has TC showed in tha past? Outside of people "speculating" on BBI, there was never any signs of TC and Reese having any issues..
Mara chose Reese over Coughlin. Coughlin felt he was taking all the blame when all the blame was his. There is a reason he didn't shake Mara's hand. There were problems there.
But how is Reese lumped in? Because the Owner made the decision to retain the GM and fire the HC is nothing new. Now, It should have been done at the same time. But I think Reese get tarnished a lot and really has taken the most blame, and he should take a lot, but that's been beaten to death.
IMO, the way the organization makes decisions, and I like the way FMiC stated it, It's fluid, depending on the situation and the player.
What my hope is, this change is coming from the Owner, on how they conduct bsuiness operations and they are changing the model. If it's just the coach influence, what happens if he leaves or don't start winning fast enough? Do we go back to status quo?
But how is Reese lumped in? Because the Owner made the decision to retain the GM and fire the HC is nothing new. Now, It should have been done at the same time. But I think Reese get tarnished a lot and really has taken the most blame, and he should take a lot, but that's been beaten to death.
IMO, the way the organization makes decisions, and I like the way FMiC stated it, It's fluid, depending on the situation and the player.
What my hope is, this change is coming from the Owner, on how they conduct bsuiness operations and they are changing the model. If it's just the coach influence, what happens if he leaves or don't start winning fast enough? Do we go back to status quo?
It's more than just draft picks. It's how they work together. Like I said, when it works it works well. When it doesn't there are fingers being pointed. Coughlin knew he was on the hot seat. He wasn't surprised he was fired. He knew it was coming. He was on the hot seat more than he wasn't in NY. So why was he so upset? There was more than just him being let go. He felt he was taking all the blame.
Is that statement correct about TC agreeing with the picks? I have heard quite differently so not sure if that is some generalization to make it seem like he went along.
And it worked well for many years, not just the 2 SB's years. Situation was gong to end badly one way or another. You had a HC and QB who were beginning to decline and organization that was still trying to squeeze 1 more run..
I have read (and heard some via an ex-assistant) that TC gave some input on scouting and also on draft targets but that Final Say was without question on Reese. It wasn't like a consensus was formed in the room at all.
And moreso that TC and his assistants were often disenchanted with those ultimate picks and basically looked at each other and said "this is the hand we were dealt".
Also agree with sentiments you all noted above that TC felt he was getting all the blame when he got fired but Reese was allowed to keep his job. And that didn't sit well with him therefore no handshake.
Mara's primary reason for keeping Reese on board for a bit longer was because he couldn't entirely clean house in his mind, and went with the guy who helped/led creation of the roster that won 2 superbowls versus the HC.
JOHN MARA: Listen, Tom said we win as a team, we lose as a team. Everybody's involved in those personnel decisions. We obviously missed the boat. Some of our draft classes were not as productive as we hoped they would be. I think that's primarily the cause of why we're standing here today talking about this.
JOHN MARA: You say 'more of a say.' This coach had as much of a say as any head coach we ever had. I cannot think of any personnel decisions that we made in the last 12 years that Tom was against. He did not have any players forced upon him at all.
They worked together very, very well. They had a great respect. There was a mutual respect there. I mean, it was very, very rare they had any disagreements about personnel.
Relative to coaching, I think it was okay that TC lost his job. First of all, he was no spring chicken and I think the years and the losing we getting to him as noted with some of his desperate coaching moves at the end of games in that final year.
How Reese was able to stay on is just an example of poor leadership and decision making at the top.
This was an article on same topic but as you can read a different theme as to how player personnel decisions were decided.
https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/giants/vacchiano-logic-jerry-reese-not-applied-coughlin-article-1.2486809
Maybe. But I also think they don't do the he said/she said at that level in public.
And not being against a personnel decision although being more in favor of a different one is probably what the crux is about.
Either it is true or the owner lied in fromt of everyone. if I was a betting man, I'll pull a Jim Fassel, an go with the former.
But my original hope still stands, this a now a ownership change of position.
With the only one left standing in this decade-long train wreck being John Mara, its pretty obvious it doesn't matter. Unless he keeps making and/or allowing those poor decisions in running this team.
Late response but control isn't the right word - input is. As Robbie said just about every single season of hard knocks ever has shown that building a roster is a collaborative process so yes, if those other HC's felt strongly I think they could have had a large impact on who the team pursued. I think Coughlin had a pretty loud voice because the drafts in particular got noticeably better when he stepped in for Fassel. Like a lot better. they stopped picking guys like Hatch, Dixon, and Shiancoe in the first 3 rounds and stuck to more power 5 prospects.
McAdoo as a first time head coach I think likely deferred to Reese more than the others. Shurmur I believe had a ton of input in the selection of a QB and the scouting of all the guys in both 18 and 19. I assume his defensive coordinator had a ton of input on the pickups on defense or else it was a hell of a coincidence that we ended up with so many guys from AZ.