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OL Nick Gates signs a somewhat significant extension

Anakim : 8/1/2020 11:11 am
Mike Garafolo
@MikeGarafolo
The #Giants have agreed to a two-year extension with OL Nick Gates, who started three games last year. The deal has a base value of $6.825 million and could max out at $10.325 million. A former undrafted free agent who spent his first year on IR, Gates cashes in.



A bit much...that's starter money...
That's awesome!  
Jay on the Island : 8/1/2020 11:13 am : link
IMO that means that they expect him to push for either the starting center or RT spot.
He is most likely the starting center  
nygiants16 : 8/1/2020 11:14 am : link
..
RE: He is most likely the starting center  
Jay on the Island : 8/1/2020 11:15 am : link
In comment 14941943 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
..

I really hope so because Pulley is a below average backup and he is currently expected to be the starting center.
Not starter money, but highly valued backup money...  
Milton : 8/1/2020 11:15 am : link
Similar to what they gave Mayo, Fleming, and Toilolo.
that is very interesting  
Eric on Li : 8/1/2020 11:17 am : link
these are the kinds of extensions that can really pay off if the player works out - even if simply because they give you a lot more leverage negotiating a more meaningful extension a year or two down the road.

I'd imagine this indicates Gates is likely to be starting at either C or RT this year. He was very impressive last year in a reasonable number of snaps.
He’s young & they like him..  
Sean : 8/1/2020 11:17 am : link
Glad they locked him in.
this a typical bad DG contract  
GiantsFan84 : 8/1/2020 11:18 am : link
gates has proven nothing. like legit nothing. they don't even know what position he's going play. is it C? can he even play C? is he a backup G? backup T? has he shown enough to replace zeitler? if that even the plan? he hasn't even got on the field with the new coaching staff.

i just don't see the urgency to give him a deal. like what was the rush for this? why not let him play this year and see how he does?

this extension is not pennies. same with mayo. they paid him wayyyyyyy too much money for a backup. mayo is a bottom of the roster, minimum salary guy and he's getting $3M. now they are giving gates money.

i don't get it
Maybe  
Harvest Blend : 8/1/2020 11:21 am : link
the Giants front office and coaching staff after extensive film study think they know more the we do?

Maybe?
Um  
UGADawgs7 : 8/1/2020 11:21 am : link
Is this what they used with the Solder freed up $?
I think this clearly means Gates is starting C, and Fleming will be RT. Pulley is trash so I’m really hoping it doesn’t mean Gates at RT as Gates didn’t show much that he can start at RT.
RE: this a typical bad DG contract  
Jolly Blue Giant : 8/1/2020 11:21 am : link
In comment 14941950 GiantsFan84 said:
Quote:
gates has proven nothing. like legit nothing. they don't even know what position he's going play. is it C? can he even play C? is he a backup G? backup T? has he shown enough to replace zeitler? if that even the plan? he hasn't even got on the field with the new coaching staff.

i just don't see the urgency to give him a deal. like what was the rush for this? why not let him play this year and see how he does?

this extension is not pennies. same with mayo. they paid him wayyyyyyy too much money for a backup. mayo is a bottom of the roster, minimum salary guy and he's getting $3M. now they are giving gates money.

i don't get it

They don’t know what position he’s going to play or you don’t know?
He was gonna be a restricted free agent in 2021  
Milton : 8/1/2020 11:23 am : link
So this puts him under contract for three more years including 2020.

It's not close to starter's money, but he was under contract this year for $675K and they could tender him at a 1st (or 2nd) round value next year for $2M-$3M, so it gives him some financial security and they probably promised to renegotiate down the road if he becomes a starter.

The good news is that it demonstrates that it wasn't just pre-draft lip service when Gettleman was hawking Gates as a potential starter.
RE: that is very interesting  
Jay on the Island : 8/1/2020 11:24 am : link
In comment 14941947 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
these are the kinds of extensions that can really pay off if the player works out - even if simply because they give you a lot more leverage negotiating a more meaningful extension a year or two down the road.

I'd imagine this indicates Gates is likely to be starting at either C or RT this year. He was very impressive last year in a reasonable number of snaps.

It's unfortunate that he missed his entire rookie season. Gates impressed at both RT and G but I still believe that he belongs inside. With Solder opting out the RT spot is wide open between Fleming and Gates. Hopefully the Giants will either bring in a better center option such as Justin Britt or swing a trade for one if Gates is the starting RT.
They clearly like him  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 8/1/2020 11:25 am : link
which is good. Whether it is expensive or not depends upon guarantees and structure.
RE: this a typical bad DG contract  
Jay on the Island : 8/1/2020 11:29 am : link
In comment 14941950 GiantsFan84 said:
Quote:
gates has proven nothing. like legit nothing. they don't even know what position he's going play. is it C? can he even play C? is he a backup G? backup T? has he shown enough to replace zeitler? if that even the plan? he hasn't even got on the field with the new coaching staff.

i just don't see the urgency to give him a deal. like what was the rush for this? why not let him play this year and see how he does?

this extension is not pennies. same with mayo. they paid him wayyyyyyy too much money for a backup. mayo is a bottom of the roster, minimum salary guy and he's getting $3M. now they are giving gates money.

i don't get it

He's proven nothing? I guess all those practices he participated in must've shown something. I guess we should dismiss the starts he made last year where he played very well at two positions despite missing his entire rookie season. I think the FO and coaching staff is slightly more informed than you but that's just speculation on my part.
What this means to me is that the Giants feel Gates has solid  
Ivan15 : 8/1/2020 11:30 am : link
Technique and can be a backup along the o-line. Now they need to figure out if he can be a starter somewhere.
RE: this a typical bad DG contract  
robbieballs2003 : 8/1/2020 11:30 am : link
In comment 14941950 GiantsFan84 said:
Quote:
gates has proven nothing. like legit nothing. they don't even know what position he's going play. is it C? can he even play C? is he a backup G? backup T? has he shown enough to replace zeitler? if that even the plan? he hasn't even got on the field with the new coaching staff.

i just don't see the urgency to give him a deal. like what was the rush for this? why not let him play this year and see how he does?

this extension is not pennies. same with mayo. they paid him wayyyyyyy too much money for a backup. mayo is a bottom of the roster, minimum salary guy and he's getting $3M. now they are giving gates money.

i don't get it


Slightly over 3 mil per year as an extension and it'll be lower when you count the time he has left. Why is this a problem. This is not really starter money. This is 6th man along the OL money and if he does start then his salary bumps up. Makes perfect sense.
Nothing against Gates  
David B. : 8/1/2020 11:33 am : link
He seems to have some potential.

But it seems to me (too) that they could have waited to see a little more from him.

OTOH, if he starts all year and plays decently (at ANY position), he's gonna want stater money. What he's getting in this deal would be a bargain for a starter.

Basically, their betting FOR him to succeed rather than against him.
The Giants finally have some young talent on the OL  
Jay on the Island : 8/1/2020 11:34 am : link
to be excited about. Andrew Thomas, Matt Peart, Nick Gates, Shane Lemieux, Will Hernandez, and Kyle Murphy.

One of the benefits of Solder opting out, besides the cap savings, is that it opens up a roster spot for Kyle Murphy.
You can criticize Gettleman for several moves  
Jay on the Island : 8/1/2020 11:37 am : link
but not for this one. If Gates wins a starting spot this is a great contract for a few years.

Before anyone criticizes this move  
Jay on the Island : 8/1/2020 11:38 am : link
remember that the Jets signed mediocre swing tackle George Fant to a 3 year $30 million dollar contract.
I agree with this  
David B. : 8/1/2020 11:39 am : link
Quote:
One of the benefits of Solder opting out, besides the cap savings, is that it opens up a roster spot for Kyle Murphy.


That kid plays like a beast. If he can do it at the NFL level (a BIG IF), they'll really have something. He's another guy I'd try at OC.
RE: Before anyone criticizes this move  
Anakim : 8/1/2020 11:43 am : link
In comment 14941986 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
remember that the Jets signed mediocre swing tackle George Fant to a 3 year $30 million dollar contract.


Gates is earning around the same per year as Cam Fleming is. It's low-end starter money.
Good signing  
aGiantGuy : 8/1/2020 11:44 am : link
Nick Gates already proved himself last year against the Jets where he was our best graded o lineman by Sy and other experts. He’s better than just a backup and the contract reflects that.
no only is this good for Gates but for motivating his  
gtt350 : 8/1/2020 11:45 am : link
teammates. When an UDFA gets paid they take notice.
work work work pays off
RE: RE: He is most likely the starting center  
Simms11 : 8/1/2020 11:48 am : link
In comment 14941944 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 14941943 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


..


I really hope so because Pulley is a below average backup and he is currently expected to be the starting center.


How can he be expected to be the starting Center? He’s got zero experience, other then a few practice snaps and there will be no pre-season for him to work through issues. Secondly, he’s a decent olineman, but seems to not be able to anchor well. Unless he’s gotten stronger and now has the ability to anchor, he’ll be more like Pulley in terms of his strength inside. I see the Giants going with the experienced guy right now. The Giants need to find a Center in the worst way. Maybe Gates gets a shot later on in the year, depending upon circumstances.
They're  
AcidTest : 8/1/2020 11:56 am : link
betting on him to continuing to develop, after he played well last year. He certainly isn't the most athletically gifted player, but he works hard, and knows his assignments. Fleming is also a FA in 2021, and Peart may not be ready to be the RT at that time. I agree that Gates may not transition to center this year, but it's likely he will eventually. There is also a huge need for OL around the league. Signing him now takes him off the FA market next year. All of this more than justifies a slight overpay.
RE: RE: Before anyone criticizes this move  
Milton : 8/1/2020 11:56 am : link
In comment 14941989 Anakim said:
Quote:
In comment 14941986 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


remember that the Jets signed mediocre swing tackle George Fant to a 3 year $30 million dollar contract.



Gates is earning around the same per year as Cam Fleming is. It's low-end starter money.
Cam Fleming wasn't signed to be a starter. He was signed to be the swing tackle off the bench. As someone else put it a few comments up, this is 6th man money.
Kevin Boothe similarly extended here a couple times as a swing backup  
Eric on Li : 8/1/2020 11:56 am : link
he was a 2nd year 6th round pick when he was claimed by the Giants in 2007. He didn't start a game for the team until 2009. When he extended after 09 he'd only started a handful of games. And all the way down the road from 2011-2013 he started 41 games.

Having competent young depth players you can groom in your system to step into when necessary is how you avoid being forced to sign/start guys like Marshall Newhouse or praying next year's undrafted Chad Wheeler/Adam Bisnowaty isn't in completely over their head. And if you get lucky and hit on the next Diehl/Seubert, you have a ton of leverage to extend them reasonably as compared to someone like Hernandez who is likely going to need to get extended at close to market rate.
RE: RE: RE: He is most likely the starting center  
Jay on the Island : 8/1/2020 11:57 am : link
In comment 14941994 Simms11 said:
Quote:
In comment 14941944 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


In comment 14941943 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


..


I really hope so because Pulley is a below average backup and he is currently expected to be the starting center.



How can he be expected to be the starting Center? He’s got zero experience, other then a few practice snaps and there will be no pre-season for him to work through issues. Secondly, he’s a decent olineman, but seems to not be able to anchor well. Unless he’s gotten stronger and now has the ability to anchor, he’ll be more like Pulley in terms of his strength inside. I see the Giants going with the experienced guy right now. The Giants need to find a Center in the worst way. Maybe Gates gets a shot later on in the year, depending upon circumstances.

You misread my post. I said that Pulley was expected to be the starting center not Gates.
RE: Kevin Boothe similarly extended here a couple times as a swing backup  
AcidTest : 8/1/2020 11:59 am : link
In comment 14942001 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
he was a 2nd year 6th round pick when he was claimed by the Giants in 2007. He didn't start a game for the team until 2009. When he extended after 09 he'd only started a handful of games. And all the way down the road from 2011-2013 he started 41 games.

Having competent young depth players you can groom in your system to step into when necessary is how you avoid being forced to sign/start guys like Marshall Newhouse or praying next year's undrafted Chad Wheeler/Adam Bisnowaty isn't in completely over their head. And if you get lucky and hit on the next Diehl/Seubert, you have a ton of leverage to extend them reasonably as compared to someone like Hernandez who is likely going to need to get extended at close to market rate.


Excellent analysis.
Simms11  
aGiantGuy : 8/1/2020 12:00 pm : link
It’s much harder to anchor as a guard then it is as a center, if u remember Richburg’s rookie year he would get blown into the backfield 5 times a game but he got better with it when he moved to center.

Gates problems had more to do with punching and stopping counter pass rush moves, which bodes well for center because he is the help, I didn’t see much problems with anchor strength, imo
RE: this a typical bad DG contract  
UConn4523 : 8/1/2020 12:00 pm : link
In comment 14941950 GiantsFan84 said:
Quote:
gates has proven nothing. like legit nothing. they don't even know what position he's going play. is it C? can he even play C? is he a backup G? backup T? has he shown enough to replace zeitler? if that even the plan? he hasn't even got on the field with the new coaching staff.

i just don't see the urgency to give him a deal. like what was the rush for this? why not let him play this year and see how he does?

this extension is not pennies. same with mayo. they paid him wayyyyyyy too much money for a backup. mayo is a bottom of the roster, minimum salary guy and he's getting $3M. now they are giving gates money.

i don't get it


So just over $5.5m per year if it hits whatever the max escalators are is a bad deal for our potential starting C or RT? Ok.
RE: this a typical bad DG contract  
djm : 8/1/2020 12:01 pm : link
In comment 14941950 GiantsFan84 said:
Quote:
gates has proven nothing. like legit nothing. they don't even know what position he's going play. is it C? can he even play C? is he a backup G? backup T? has he shown enough to replace zeitler? if that even the plan? he hasn't even got on the field with the new coaching staff.

i just don't see the urgency to give him a deal. like what was the rush for this? why not let him play this year and see how he does?

this extension is not pennies. same with mayo. they paid him wayyyyyyy too much money for a backup. mayo is a bottom of the roster, minimum salary guy and he's getting $3M. now they are giving gates money.

i don't get it


You don’t get the move to sign a young player to a deal that will be a bargain if he’s a viable starter? Have you been watching the nfl for the last 25 years?
Shaun O’Hara  
djm : 8/1/2020 12:02 pm : link
Says hello. Remember me.
RE: Nothing against Gates  
Milton : 8/1/2020 12:04 pm : link
In comment 14941977 David B. said:
Quote:

Basically, they're betting FOR him to succeed rather than against him.
Conversely, Gates appears to be betting against himself. Maybe it was the season lost to injury or uncertainty over current events that has him skittish, but he will be hugely underpaid come 2022 if he has established himself as a starter. Hell, he'll be underpaid at that salary if he's nailed down the 6th man role come 2022. And maybe that's the point.
RE: I agree with this  
Jay on the Island : 8/1/2020 12:05 pm : link
In comment 14941987 David B. said:
Quote:


Quote:


One of the benefits of Solder opting out, besides the cap savings, is that it opens up a roster spot for Kyle Murphy.



That kid plays like a beast. If he can do it at the NFL level (a BIG IF), they'll really have something. He's another guy I'd try at OC.

David, I agree with you. Due to his size Murphy will play G/C in the NFL. I mentioned how much I loved Murphy tenacity after watching his highlight video. He was constantly playing until the whistle and often past it. This line has been missing a nasty player like Seubert and now the Giants might have two of them in Lemieux and Murphy.

If I had my choice I would have Lemieux and Murphy spending the majority of their practice time at center. I am hoping that Pulley doesn't even make the team because two of these young kids (Gates,Lemieux,Murphy,Haycraft) step up. Unfortunately the chances of that happening are slim due to the limited offseason and practice time.

The level of competition was a concern but if the Giants are patient with Murphy and give him a year to get stronger they might have a very valuable backup with a chance for more.
RE: Simms11  
Jay on the Island : 8/1/2020 12:12 pm : link
In comment 14942007 aGiantGuy said:
Quote:
It’s much harder to anchor as a guard then it is as a center, if u remember Richburg’s rookie year he would get blown into the backfield 5 times a game but he got better with it when he moved to center.

Gates problems had more to do with punching and stopping counter pass rush moves, which bodes well for center because he is the help, I didn’t see much problems with anchor strength, imo

Good post. Players can always get stronger. Gates missed all of his rookie season due to injury.

Gates hopefully is Gettleman's next OL find.
He must look impressive on the computer screen!  
ZogZerg : 8/1/2020 12:12 pm : link
;)
Gates showed pretty well at the end of last year  
LBH15 : 8/1/2020 12:13 pm : link
when he got a couple starts. Mostly impressed with his awareness and decent athleticism on field.

None of us know anything with regards to what will play out at Center this year. I actually think he might be best option team has right now at Right Tackle.

A bit surprised at the money he got but Front Office seems to know their stuff at contract time with Offensive Lineman
:-)
RE: RE: Simms11  
LBH15 : 8/1/2020 12:15 pm : link
In comment 14942018 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 14942007 aGiantGuy said:


Quote:


It’s much harder to anchor as a guard then it is as a center, if u remember Richburg’s rookie year he would get blown into the backfield 5 times a game but he got better with it when he moved to center.

Gates problems had more to do with punching and stopping counter pass rush moves, which bodes well for center because he is the help, I didn’t see much problems with anchor strength, imo


Good post. Players can always get stronger. Gates missed all of his rookie season due to injury.

Gates hopefully is Gettleman's next OL find.


You mean his first OL find.
Here's how I would break it down....  
Milton : 8/1/2020 12:19 pm : link
If you include this year, it's a 3-year deal worth $7.5M-$11M (depending on playing time).

Assuming the Giants felt he was worth tendering as a RFA, they controlled his rights for two more years at $675K and the 2nd round tender value of roughly $3.5M. Let's call it $3.325M to keep it simple because $675K and $3.325M equals $4M even. So basically he gets some financial security and they get him for $3.5M-$7M in 2022 (depending on playing time). And that's if they want him in 2022. No mention of how much of it is guaranteed.
RE: RE: RE: Simms11  
Jay on the Island : 8/1/2020 12:21 pm : link
In comment 14942024 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In comment 14942018 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


In comment 14942007 aGiantGuy said:


Quote:


It’s much harder to anchor as a guard then it is as a center, if u remember Richburg’s rookie year he would get blown into the backfield 5 times a game but he got better with it when he moved to center.

Gates problems had more to do with punching and stopping counter pass rush moves, which bodes well for center because he is the help, I didn’t see much problems with anchor strength, imo


Good post. Players can always get stronger. Gates missed all of his rookie season due to injury.

Gates hopefully is Gettleman's next OL find.



You mean his first OL find.

During his short tenure in Carolina Gettleman brought in Andrew Norwell(UDFA), RT Daryl Williams (4th round), G Trai Turner (3rd round), and Mike Remmers(UDFA signed off Rams PS). Norwell, Williams, and Turner were all-pro's or pro bowlers in the past. Gettleman deserves a lot of criticism for some of his moves but he has a great track record with OL.
RE: Simms11  
Simms11 : 8/1/2020 12:22 pm : link
In comment 14942007 aGiantGuy said:
Quote:
It’s much harder to anchor as a guard then it is as a center, if u remember Richburg’s rookie year he would get blown into the backfield 5 times a game but he got better with it when he moved to center.

Gates problems had more to do with punching and stopping counter pass rush moves, which bodes well for center because he is the help, I didn’t see much problems with anchor strength, imo


He held his own, but I often saw him getting pushed back and not holding his ground. He did enough to be effective.
I am still annoyed that Shurmur benched Gates  
Jay on the Island : 8/1/2020 12:24 pm : link
He should have let him finish the season either at RT or RG. Zeitler was playing hurt at G and Remmers was clearly not going to be retained. Shurmur decided to play the veterans instead of the young players because he was trying to save his job.
RE: Maybe  
Mdgiantsfan : 8/1/2020 12:25 pm : link
In comment 14941957 Harvest Blend said:
Quote:
the Giants front office and coaching staff after extensive film study think they know more the we do?

Maybe?


So does that mean every move we question works out? The FO and Coaching staff have made plenty of decisions that didn't pan out, and yes they did have more insight but that doesn't diminish someone else's opinion. The fact remains they've won all of 7(?) games with all of that insight.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Simms11  
LBH15 : 8/1/2020 12:26 pm : link
In comment 14942032 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 14942024 LBH15 said:


Quote:


In comment 14942018 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


In comment 14942007 aGiantGuy said:


Quote:


It’s much harder to anchor as a guard then it is as a center, if u remember Richburg’s rookie year he would get blown into the backfield 5 times a game but he got better with it when he moved to center.

Gates problems had more to do with punching and stopping counter pass rush moves, which bodes well for center because he is the help, I didn’t see much problems with anchor strength, imo


Good post. Players can always get stronger. Gates missed all of his rookie season due to injury.

Gates hopefully is Gettleman's next OL find.



You mean his first OL find.


During his short tenure in Carolina Gettleman brought in Andrew Norwell(UDFA), RT Daryl Williams (4th round), G Trai Turner (3rd round), and Mike Remmers(UDFA signed off Rams PS). Norwell, Williams, and Turner were all-pro's or pro bowlers in the past. Gettleman deserves a lot of criticism for some of his moves but he has a great track record with OL.


Where did it go?
Very good signing ... this is how you build depth at key positions.  
Spider56 : 8/1/2020 12:29 pm : link
I think he is at least, a competent backup at all 5 slots, and should compete with Fleming to start at RT this year. Pearl maybe the future there, but he needs at least a year to acclimate to pro level competition. I’d still like to see another center signed.
Looking forward to 2021  
PEEJ : 8/1/2020 12:32 pm : link
Zeitler will be making $12.5 in salary.
The Giants may have some flexibility to
cut/trade Zeitler, if Gates is the real thing
RE: RE: Maybe  
Jolly Blue Giant : 8/1/2020 12:32 pm : link
In comment 14942038 Mdgiantsfan said:
Quote:
In comment 14941957 Harvest Blend said:


Quote:


the Giants front office and coaching staff after extensive film study think they know more the we do?

Maybe?



So does that mean every move we question works out? The FO and Coaching staff have made plenty of decisions that didn't pan out, and yes they did have more insight but that doesn't diminish someone else's opinion. The fact remains they've won all of 7(?) games with all of that insight.

When the opinion uses speculation (they have no plan on what position he will be playing) then it loses validity and can be criticized in turn.
RE: Kevin Boothe similarly extended here a couple times as a swing backup  
ColHowPepper : 8/1/2020 12:40 pm : link
In comment 14942001 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
he was a 2nd year 6th round pick when he was claimed by the Giants in 2007. He didn't start a game for the team until 2009. When he extended after 09 he'd only started a handful of games. And all the way down the road from 2011-2013 he started 41 games.

Having competent young depth players you can groom in your system to step into when necessary is how you avoid being forced to sign/start guys like Marshall Newhouse or praying next year's undrafted Chad Wheeler/Adam Bisnowaty isn't in completely over their head. And if you get lucky and hit on the next Diehl/Seubert, you have a ton of leverage to extend them reasonably as compared to someone like Hernandez who is likely going to need to get extended at close to market rate.
I don't think Boothe is an apt comp at all. He may not have started many games, but anyone watching him in the games he came in saw the steadiness, decent feet, and good power as run blocker. He had a track record.

Gates doesn't.
.  
ghost718 : 8/1/2020 12:57 pm : link
RE: Maybe  
sb from NYT Forum : 8/1/2020 1:00 pm : link
In comment 14941957 Harvest Blend said:
Quote:
the Giants front office and coaching staff after extensive film study think they know more the we do?

Maybe?


I remember the same posts from a bunch of posters about Halapio last year.

Not saying Gates is bad, but posts like this are dumb. We as fans can never question personnel moves because we aren't coaches and don't have access to hours of film?
RE: RE: Maybe  
BigBlueShock : 8/1/2020 1:06 pm : link
In comment 14942070 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:
In comment 14941957 Harvest Blend said:


Quote:


the Giants front office and coaching staff after extensive film study think they know more the we do?

Maybe?



I remember the same posts from a bunch of posters about Halapio last year.

Not saying Gates is bad, but posts like this are dumb. We as fans can never question personnel moves because we aren't coaches and don't have access to hours of film?

It would take reading the post he was replying to if you were to understand his point.

Aside from that, sure fans have every right to whine, bitch, moan and complain about shit they don’t have a clue about. Teams missing on some players doesn’t change the fact that, in general, most fans are absolutely clueless morons.
sb  
ColHowPepper : 8/1/2020 1:08 pm : link
exactly (and I am not at all, per se, against a Gates signing), but the meme 'the coaching staff obviously likes him' is such empty drivel, has been said about (as you say) Halapio, Brewer, Petrus, etc.
RE: sb  
Milton : 8/1/2020 1:21 pm : link
In comment 14942074 ColHowPepper said:
Quote:
exactly (and I am not at all, per se, against a Gates signing), but the meme 'the coaching staff obviously likes him' is such empty drivel, has been said about (as you say) Halapio, Brewer, Petrus, etc.
Halapio, yes, but Brewer and Petrus never signed second contracts with the Giants (as far as I recall). Contract extensions are definitely a sign that the coaching staff likes someone. Drafting a guy is a sign that the scouting department likes someone.
RE: RE: Kevin Boothe similarly extended here a couple times as a swing backup  
Jay on the Island : 8/1/2020 1:24 pm : link
In comment 14942052 ColHowPepper said:
Quote:


I don't think Boothe is an apt comp at all. He may not have started many games, but anyone watching him in the games he came in saw the steadiness, decent feet, and good power as run blocker. He had a track record.

Gates doesn't.

Boothe had decent feet? Boothe moved as if his feet were stuck in cement. I liked Boothe but Gates is more athletic and talented. Boothe was strictly a guard because he would have been eaten alive by any pass rusher with speed. Boothe's strengths were his size and strength.
...  
christian : 8/1/2020 1:47 pm : link
It really depends on the terms — if it’s an extension and keeps him under contract for 20, 21, and 22 — with flexibility in 22 it’s a medium risk high reward gamble.

Personally, I find it weird the Giants are extending anyone before the coach gets to see them on the field.

I don’t think he’s very good, and I don’t think he’s part of the solution. I suspect he’ll be relegated to Spencer Pulley status next year, a slightly overpaid but not tragic backup.
RE: That's awesome!  
OC2.0 : 8/1/2020 1:49 pm : link
In comment 14941942 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
IMO that means that they expect him to push for either the starting center or RT spot.

We pretty much knew that already.
RE: RE: sb  
ColHowPepper : 8/1/2020 1:59 pm : link
In comment 14942081 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 14942074 ColHowPepper said: Quote:

exactly (and I am not at all, per se, against a Gates signing), but the meme 'the coaching staff obviously likes him' is such empty drivel, has been said about (as you say) Halapio, Brewer, Petrus, etc.
Halapio, yes, but Brewer and Petrus never signed second contracts with the Giants (as far as I recall). Contract extensions are definitely a sign that the coaching staff likes someone. Drafting a guy is a sign that the scouting department likes someone.
Milton, thrust of my comment went to 'the coaching staff likes him' as an omnibus endorsement for why a guy has not been cut or is signed. As I said, I don't object to the signing per se ($ a bit high), but absent a significant, evaluable body of work, which I don't think he had, to say the signing is because they like him if fall back drivel.
RE: Before anyone criticizes this move  
OC2.0 : 8/1/2020 2:00 pm : link
In comment 14941986 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
remember that the Jets signed mediocre swing tackle George Fant to a 3 year $30 million dollar contract.

Good point
RE: RE: RE: Kevin Boothe similarly extended here a couple times as a swing backup  
ColHowPepper : 8/1/2020 2:02 pm : link
In comment 14942086 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 14942052 ColHowPepper said:
Quote: I don't think Boothe is an apt comp at all. He may not have started many games, but anyone watching him in the games he came in saw the steadiness, decent feet, and good power as run blocker. He had a track record.

Gates doesn't. ///////

Boothe had decent feet? Boothe moved as if his feet were stuck in cement. I liked Boothe but Gates is more athletic and talented. Boothe was strictly a guard because he would have been eaten alive by any pass rusher with speed. Boothe's strengths were his size and strength.
Jay, you're supporting my assertion that Boothe is not a good comp for Gates (to a post comparing the two). I happen to agree with your characterizations of Boothe (and Gates), and he was a 'heavy' player. I didn't say good feet. (:
RE: this a typical bad DG contract  
Saquads26 : 8/1/2020 2:05 pm : link
In comment 14941950 GiantsFan84 said:
Quote:
gates has proven nothing. like legit nothing. they don't even know what position he's going play. is it C? can he even play C? is he a backup G? backup T? has he shown enough to replace zeitler? if that even the plan? he hasn't even got on the field with the new coaching staff.

i just don't see the urgency to give him a deal. like what was the rush for this? why not let him play this year and see how he does?

this extension is not pennies. same with mayo. they paid him wayyyyyyy too much money for a backup. mayo is a bottom of the roster, minimum salary guy and he's getting $3M. now they are giving gates money.

i don't get it


Of course you don’t lol
RE: this a typical bad DG contract  
OC2.0 : 8/1/2020 2:08 pm : link
In comment 14941950 GiantsFan84 said:
Quote:
gates has proven nothing. like legit nothing. they don't even know what position he's going play. is it C? can he even play C? is he a backup G? backup T? has he shown enough to replace zeitler? if that even the plan? he hasn't even got on the field with the new coaching staff.

i just don't see the urgency to give him a deal. like what was the rush for this? why not let him play this year and see how he does?

this extension is not pennies. same with mayo. they paid him wayyyyyyy too much money for a backup. mayo is a bottom of the roster, minimum salary guy and he's getting $3M. now they are giving gates money.

i don't get it

What don't you get about starter/1st backup? And yes, it is pennies these days.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Kevin Boothe similarly extended here a couple times as a swing backup  
Jay on the Island : 8/1/2020 2:18 pm : link
In comment 14942120 ColHowPepper said:
Quote:

Jay, you're supporting my assertion that Boothe is not a good comp for Gates (to a post comparing the two). I happen to agree with your characterizations of Boothe (and Gates), and he was a 'heavy' player. I didn't say good feet. (:

I don't think he was comparing Boothe and Gates skill sets. I think Eric was just mentioning how both were little known players that nobody expected to develop into starting caliber offensive linemen.
Colhowpepper - I wasn't comparing Boothe's playing style to Gates  
Eric on Li : 8/1/2020 2:45 pm : link
As players of course they are very different. For one thing Nick Gates doesn't have the most enormous and unathletic ass in all of professional sports. Where they are similar is that they were both intelligent enough to come off the bench and handle multiple positions impressively when called upon while flashing enough talent to potentially develop into starters.

and contrary to your analysis of whom was more impressive/productive, last year not only was Gates extremely impressive when he got to play, but in that 1 season he also made more starts (3) than Boothe did in his first 3 years with NYG (just 2). So at the early stages of each of their respective careers here I do believe they've been similarly productive, with Gates likely having been more productive just by having had more of an opportunity to play full games.
or what Jay said if i'd bothered to read up 1 line  
Eric on Li : 8/1/2020 2:47 pm : link
btw I'd imagine as director of pro personnel from '99-'11, Gettleman was involved in claiming Boothe in 2007 and extending him in '09.
Big Gates fan  
mittenedman : 8/1/2020 2:59 pm : link
I like the way he plays football. Old school OL who blocks through the whistle and looks for contact. Hustles. Doesn't back down. He is somewhere between Diehl & Seubert for me. He's got the quiet good footwork of Diehl with that dog mentality.

Always a guy who is going to be in your top 5 - and has deserved to play more the last couple years.

Even if he's a 6th man, he can have lots of value. Jason Garrett uses lots of 3 TE formations. We could see plenty of Gates at TE.
RE: this a typical bad DG contract  
Rory : 8/1/2020 3:00 pm : link
In comment 14941950 GiantsFan84 said:
Quote:
gates has proven nothing. like legit nothing. they don't even know what position he's going play. is it C? can he even play C? is he a backup G? backup T? has he shown enough to replace zeitler? if that even the plan? he hasn't even got on the field with the new coaching staff.

i just don't see the urgency to give him a deal. like what was the rush for this? why not let him play this year and see how he does?

this extension is not pennies. same with mayo. they paid him wayyyyyyy too much money for a backup. mayo is a bottom of the roster, minimum salary guy and he's getting $3M. now they are giving gates money.

i don't get it


na, just bc you dont get it doesn't mean they dont. go make a sandwich.
It feels a little too often that you can look at Giants  
NoGainDayne : 8/1/2020 3:06 pm : link
moves and say where is the logic in that?

With an unknown cap situation going forward who is to say this is a good deal? Especially to a player who has proven nothing in live games. Let’s not pretend like the Giants dont consistently overrate their own players and also use the media as a tool to validate these views.

It’s great if that are right and he turns into a legit starter. It’s just seems like strange timing to do this now? Are other teams doing this with more bottom the roster players?
RE: RE: Maybe  
Harvest Blend : 8/1/2020 3:12 pm : link
In comment 14942070 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:
In comment 14941957 Harvest Blend said:


Quote:


the Giants front office and coaching staff after extensive film study think they know more the we do?

Maybe?



Not saying Gates is bad, but posts like this are dumb. We as fans can never question personnel moves because we aren't coaches and don't have access to hours of film?


I prefer to trust those that actually know what the fuck they're looking at.
RE: It feels a little too often that you can look at Giants  
BigBlueShock : 8/1/2020 3:23 pm : link
In comment 14942154 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
moves and say where is the logic in that?

With an unknown cap situation going forward who is to say this is a good deal? Especially to a player who has proven nothing in live games. Let’s not pretend like the Giants dont consistently overrate their own players and also use the media as a tool to validate these views.

It’s great if that are right and he turns into a legit starter. It’s just seems like strange timing to do this now? Are other teams doing this with more bottom the roster players?

So you think Gates is a “bottom of roster guy”? Seriously?
No bonus.....no risk  
George from PA : 8/1/2020 3:23 pm : link
So, I have no idea why anyone thinks this is a bad move.....as this move has zero risk.....

The Giants are slowly building a solid OL room.

Flemming is a swing Tackle.

Gates has the potential to be a swing all 5 spots



I will grant the possibility  
ColHowPepper : 8/1/2020 3:25 pm : link
that I was much more attuned to those Giants' teams and in Boothe saw an effective, if unsung, par-time player. He impressed me before he because a solid starter.

In the case of Gates and these teams, I have been less attentive to the trainwrecks on the field and he may impress, if that is the comparison being made. But in terms of skill set and style of player in the trenches, no.
RE: It feels a little too often that you can look at Giants  
BlueLou'sBack : 8/1/2020 4:10 pm : link
In comment 14942154 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
moves and say where is the logic in that?

With an unknown cap situation going forward who is to say this is a good deal? Especially to a player who has proven nothing in live games. Let’s not pretend like the Giants dont consistently overrate their own players and also use the media as a tool to validate these views.

It’s great if that are right and he turns into a legit starter. It’s just seems like strange timing to do this now? Are other teams doing this with more bottom the roster players?


Strange timing? IDK, seems like shortly after Solder announced he's out this year, and you've just got your first look at how little you've gotten to work with your three rookie OL that form your future (you hope) OL, and you're closer to realizing there may very well not be a 2020 CFB...

Seems like the timing isn't strange at all to lock up your 6th OL, or starting OC or RT until Peart is ready...

Doesn't seem like strange timing at all to me.
it's a no risk move not all that different than signing pulley a few  
Eric on Li : 8/1/2020 4:20 pm : link
years ago. Obviously Pulley hasn't been anything special but it's a risk free (can be cut without dead money) young depth player they like enough to try to develop and who has shown he can step in and not be a total disaster. Gates has shown a lot more than Pulley so this makes a lot more sense than that one and seems like a better use of cap space than lower ceiling backups like Flemming.
Perhaps  
aGiantGuy : 8/1/2020 4:25 pm : link
Gates working out with Will Hernandez most of the offseason has paid off in terms of the eye test and movement ability displayed in comparison to last year. Just general athletic movements, not too football-specific.


Given that improvement, Gettleman may have wanted to solidify his place before he had a chance to prove his worth in a heavily competitive camp. If Gates turns out to be far and away our best lineman out of 5, his price would’ve skyrocketed. We can’t afford another high priced Olineman with Solder still on the books. I like the move, but there is a lot we don’t know.
For all you can pummel DG for the Solder signing and the  
BlueLou'sBack : 8/1/2020 4:35 pm : link
Omameh signing, you also need to credit him for cutting his loss with Omameh tout suit, and doing a nice job drafting Hernandez when he did, and for signing Gates as a UDFA.

It's still too early to call yeah or nay on Thomas, Peart and Lemieux, but to me it has a good smell in the foreboding of it. Thomas was MY top pick at 4, and until he proves otherwise I like the roll of the dice on Peart at 99.


Again, my opinion is only half cast to this point on DG, but he seems to have a clue when drafting OL, and even just "a clue" is a helluva lot more than Jerry Reese ever had when it came to OL!
Smart, smart move  
Biteymax22 : 8/1/2020 5:10 pm : link
From what we’ve seen of Gates his floor is a + back up at 4 positions while his ceiling is an average to slightly above average starter at Any of the 4. For that money he’s a good value and now provides us a group of young promising OL-men under our control for multiple years.

Extend Tomlinson next.
Gates is under contract this year  
NoGainDayne : 8/1/2020 5:22 pm : link
Solder opting out actually extended the amount of time on Solders contract. See that’s where the word logic comes in. Solders commitment was actually lengthened which which when paired with an uncertain financial future of the league, doesn’t seem like one should have caused the other. The logic you are posing would suggest that prior to the opt out the Giants were counting on Solder to be a part of the team, 2, 3 years from now. Which... why? Also to all the “zero risk” folks he got a $1.5M signing bonus. That’s not zero risk.
Gates Contract - ( New Window )
RE: RE: It feels a little too often that you can look at Giants  
LBH15 : 8/1/2020 5:47 pm : link
In comment 14942157 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
In comment 14942154 NoGainDayne said:


Quote:


moves and say where is the logic in that?

With an unknown cap situation going forward who is to say this is a good deal? Especially to a player who has proven nothing in live games. Let’s not pretend like the Giants dont consistently overrate their own players and also use the media as a tool to validate these views.

It’s great if that are right and he turns into a legit starter. It’s just seems like strange timing to do this now? Are other teams doing this with more bottom the roster players?


So you think Gates is a “bottom of roster guy”? Seriously?


Unfortunately, the bottom of the depth chart for the OL is not far from the top.

Or maybe that’s fortunate.
RE: Gates is under contract this year  
Jay on the Island : 8/1/2020 5:50 pm : link
In comment 14942187 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
Solder opting out actually extended the amount of time on Solders contract. See that’s where the word logic comes in. Solders commitment was actually lengthened which which when paired with an uncertain financial future of the league, doesn’t seem like one should have caused the other. The logic you are posing would suggest that prior to the opt out the Giants were counting on Solder to be a part of the team, 2, 3 years from now. Which... why? Also to all the “zero risk” folks he got a $1.5M signing bonus. That’s not zero risk. Gates Contract - ( New Window )

He was going to make the team this year regardless. The Giants have plenty of cap room so it makes sense to apply the guaranteed money on this years cap. If that's the only guaranteed money then the Giants should be able to release him in the future if they wanted with little to no dead money.
The idea that you have plenty  
NoGainDayne : 8/1/2020 5:56 pm : link
implies you have room to use it callously. I’m suggesting that everything should be more calculating than that supposition
RE: RE: this a typical bad DG contract  
Paulie Walnuts : 8/1/2020 6:15 pm : link
In comment 14941959 Jolly Blue Giant said:
Quote:
In comment 14941950 GiantsFan84 said:


Quote:


gates has proven nothing. like legit nothing. they don't even know what position he's going play. is it C? can he even play C? is he a backup G? backup T? has he shown enough to replace zeitler? if that even the plan? he hasn't even got on the field with the new coaching staff.

i just don't see the urgency to give him a deal. like what was the rush for this? why not let him play this year and see how he does?

this extension is not pennies. same with mayo. they paid him wayyyyyyy too much money for a backup. mayo is a bottom of the roster, minimum salary guy and he's getting $3M. now they are giving gates money.

i don't get it


They don’t know what position he’s going to play or you don’t know?
BINGO
RE: Gates is under contract this year  
BlueLou'sBack : 8/1/2020 6:35 pm : link
In comment 14942187 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
Solder opting out actually extended the amount of time on Solders contract. See that’s where the word logic comes in. Solders commitment was actually lengthened which which when paired with an uncertain financial future of the league, doesn’t seem like one should have caused the other. The logic you are posing would suggest that prior to the opt out the Giants were counting on Solder to be a part of the team, 2, 3 years from now. Which... why? Also to all the “zero risk” folks he got a $1.5M signing bonus. That’s not zero risk. Gates Contract - ( New Window )


NGD, Solder's "commitment" hadn't changed one bit really by his opt out. Read up more before talking nonsense. If the Giants cut Solder prior to 2021, they will have the same dead cap loss they would have had prior to his opting out.

The guaranteed part of Solder's contract HAS NOT BEEN TOLLED.

Only the non guaranteed yearly base salary was tolled by the opt out. There is no obligation to pay that base salary if they cut him.


RE: Gates is under contract this year  
Eric on Li : 8/1/2020 7:04 pm : link
In comment 14942187 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
Solder opting out actually extended the amount of time on Solders contract. See that’s where the word logic comes in. Solders commitment was actually lengthened which which when paired with an uncertain financial future of the league, doesn’t seem like one should have caused the other. The logic you are posing would suggest that prior to the opt out the Giants were counting on Solder to be a part of the team, 2, 3 years from now. Which... why? Also to all the “zero risk” folks he got a $1.5M signing bonus. That’s not zero risk. Gates Contract - ( New Window )


they got 2 extra years for a $1.5m signing bonus and you think that's positive for your argument? Did you read the article you linked?

Quote:
Gates, 24, has a legitimate shot to start at center or right tackle for the Giants. He's expected to compete at center with Spencer Pulley and rookie Shane Lemieux.

But his chances of playing at right tackle increased greatly this week when tackle Nate Solder opted out of the 2020 season because of concerns from the coronavirus. Rookie Andrew Thomas, the fourth overall pick in this year's draft, is now slated to start at left tackle.

Gates started three games last season, two at right tackle and one at guard. He graded out well. Pro Football Focus had his grade at 77.0, which would have ranked 16th among all qualifying tackles and one spot ahead of Dallas' perennial All-Pro Tyron Smith.


A $1.5m signing bonus over a 4 year contract for a potential starter has exponentially more upside than downside. And yes, a $1.5m dead cap hit in a worst case where they cut him tomorrow is as no risk as any signing gets. Complaining about this deal is akin to complaining about the brand of towel they use in the locker room.
I’m just pointing out people  
NoGainDayne : 8/1/2020 7:43 pm : link
throwing around the term zero risk is the type of hyperbole that isn’t helpful to this conversation.

I’m not complaining about the move just more saying that it would be nice to see more apparent positive reasons to do this.

An example like they did this because of Solder, which given the timing it would in fact indicate, you’d like to apparent reasons for why it makes sense.

Instead of

- the implication that resources are bountiful and there is room for error

- the implication that because they Giants are handing him money they know something we don’t
RE: Looking forward to 2021  
BlueLou'sBack : 8/2/2020 2:21 am : link
In comment 14942046 PEEJ said:
Quote:
Zeitler will be making $12.5 in salary.
The Giants may have some flexibility to
cut/trade Zeitler, if Gates is the real thing


This move is made as much or more with cutting Nate Solder in 2021 as it is made with the idea of cutting Zeitler.

Saving 12 mil by cutting Zeitler, the Giants best OL over the 2019 season, doesn't seem as clever a move as cutting Solder, arguably the Giants' worst OL in 2019, and the one opting out of 2020, and saving 10 million.

Please stop suggesting cutting the team's best players to save money, when you can cut the worst player and get similar savings, maybe?
Essentially a rookie last year  
Lines of Scrimmage : 8/2/2020 7:56 am : link
Seems he will compete for starting role and at minimum they see him as a quality back up. Young and lots of room for growth. Can't see this as a negative.
Not sure how Zeitler got into this but  
LBH15 : 8/2/2020 8:24 am : link
lets see another player step up a bit, maybe even play a game, before Giants put their starting Right Guard on the chopping block.

He may be the only one who knows how to block somebody in 2020 on this oline.
RE: Not starter money, but highly valued backup money...  
Joey in VA : 8/2/2020 8:45 am : link
In comment 14941945 Milton said:
Quote:
Similar to what they gave Mayo, Fleming, and Toilolo.
Absolutely correct, that isn't starter money or duration with 2 years. Looks like a win the job at OC and we'll pay you in 2 years.
His cap# is actually lower than all of them & hes more likely to start  
Eric on Li : 8/2/2020 10:24 am : link
I really don't know how anyone could dislike this move (except maybe Nick Gates' agents and advisors).

Flemming is on the cap this year for 3.5m and he got around 2m guaranteed. For 1 year. He is a perfectly fine depth signing, just pointing out his fmv cost and that they bought out 2 extra years of Gates' career where he could have hit FA for less guaranteed $ than a journeyman (4 years total) even if they decide to cut him tomorrow.

Toilolo got $3m guaranteed for 2 years, so he got twice as much guaranteed money in half the time and he's a very specific role player. Again, no major issue with the signing just providing some context.

Mayo is the most similar type of player because he's young and flashed enough talent that it wouldn't be shocking for him to win a starting job at some point. He also got more than twice as much money guaranteed at signing ($3.5m) and he's only extended for 2 more years.

I completely agree in categorizing all 4 of them as depth players and believe in the value of players like that vs. praying for late round picks and UDFA's to step up every year. In the big picture as mentioned it's a similar positive as it was having players like Kevin Boothe as the 6th OL ready to step in when necessary in the past. But beyond the luxury of depth and looking at possible upside, among those players Gates now has easily the best chance of becoming a starter between his versatility and Solder opting out. In his few starts last year he displayed intriguing upside as well. So to get him for 4 years at such a low cost is a no risk move with a lot of potential upside.

With the uncertainty of the times I suspect that $1.5m check held extra weight in securing his family the next few years than it may have in normal times.
...  
christian : 8/2/2020 10:58 am : link
With a decreasing salary cap and the escalators in the contract, Gates will be a well paid backup of mid tier starter. An AAV of 5M+ for a center puts you about 15th in the league.
RE: ...  
Eric on Li : 8/2/2020 11:01 am : link
In comment 14942363 christian said:
Quote:
With a decreasing salary cap and the escalators in the contract, Gates will be a well paid backup of mid tier starter. An AAV of 5M+ for a center puts you about 15th in the league.


Where are you seeing a $5m AAV? The article above said 4 years worth up to a max of 10m overall if he hits all incentives. I assume that mean the AAV is likely somewhere between $1-2m before incentives.
...  
christian : 8/2/2020 11:16 am : link
Quote:
The deal is for two additional years and $6.8 million, and can be worth a potential $10.3 million, a source told ESPN. Gates, who has a chance to be a regular starter this season, was scheduled to make $660,000 this year. Instead, he also gets a $1.5 million signing bonus, the source said.


Gates was going into the final year of the 3 year, 1.7M deal he signed in 2018. I’m inferring he is now under contract for 20, 21, 22.

2020 - 500K bonus, 660K salary
2021 - 500 K bonus, up to ~ 4.4M
2022 - 500K bonus, up to ~4.4M
RE: ...  
BigBlueShock : 8/2/2020 11:47 am : link
In comment 14942374 christian said:
Quote:


Quote:


The deal is for two additional years and $6.8 million, and can be worth a potential $10.3 million, a source told ESPN. Gates, who has a chance to be a regular starter this season, was scheduled to make $660,000 this year. Instead, he also gets a $1.5 million signing bonus, the source said.



Gates was going into the final year of the 3 year, 1.7M deal he signed in 2018. I’m inferring he is now under contract for 20, 21, 22.

2020 - 500K bonus, 660K salary
2021 - 500 K bonus, up to ~ 4.4M
2022 - 500K bonus, up to ~4.4M

Up to 4.4M, while maybe eventually accurate is incredibly disingenuous unless you know what the incentives are. Has anyone shared that info yet? I’d be curious to know what they are. There could be incentives in there that would make that 4.4M seem like a bargain if he achieves them. I don’t think any of us have enough information to be freaking out about this yet
RE: ...  
BigBlueShock : 8/2/2020 11:48 am : link
In comment 14942374 christian said:
Quote:


Quote:


The deal is for two additional years and $6.8 million, and can be worth a potential $10.3 million, a source told ESPN. Gates, who has a chance to be a regular starter this season, was scheduled to make $660,000 this year. Instead, he also gets a $1.5 million signing bonus, the source said.



Gates was going into the final year of the 3 year, 1.7M deal he signed in 2018. I’m inferring he is now under contract for 20, 21, 22.

2020 - 500K bonus, 660K salary
2021 - 500 K bonus, up to ~ 4.4M
2022 - 500K bonus, up to ~4.4M

Up to 4.4M, while maybe eventually accurate is incredibly disingenuous unless you know what the incentives are. Has anyone shared that info yet? I’d be curious to know what they are. There could be incentives in there that would make that 4.4M seem like a bargain if he achieves them. I don’t think any of us have enough information to be freaking out about this yet
No one is freaking out  
NoGainDayne : 8/2/2020 11:59 am : link
it’s just that the typical people are here saying there is nothing to possibly have any problem with in this deal. And there is absolutely more information needed.

It’s also definitely worth it to question the timing. Why not see if there is a season? Understand the cap implications better before doing this? It seemed like Solder opted out and that was the catalyst for this. Which really doesn’t make any sense because Solder opting out increased the relative cost of cutting him next season.

Again there is this characterization that people that point out potential issues are nit picking. When some are saying something is a zero risk move or there isn’t anything you could possibly see wrong with something. Then yes, people are needed to balance out the conversation.
Can’t leave behind the  
NoGainDayne : 8/2/2020 12:07 pm : link
“The only person who should have a problem is Gates agent” comment too. Yeah let’s characterize agents as these bumbling idiots just ripe for being taken advantage of by DG. Isn’t it possible that they have some basis for what Gates should be paid and are pushing for the higher end of that? That every negotiation involves risk on the side of both parties? No, no, just an agent that’s going to be kicking himself later for making this deal that is much more beneficial to the Giants than their client
re: not seeing him on the field  
bc4life : 8/2/2020 12:11 pm : link
he's palyed and he has a few starts so there is some film to review.
link - ( New Window )
highlight film  
bc4life : 8/2/2020 12:16 pm : link
obviously these are going to be all positive plays...
link - ( New Window )
anyone can "balance out" anything  
Eric on Li : 8/2/2020 12:18 pm : link
even winning a super bowl comes with the downside risk of a lower draft pick and inflated prices to resign free agents. So literally anything can be both sides'd if motivated enough.

generally speaking early extensions for players below FMV (which this appears to be) are a positive. There still seems to be confusion about whether the extension makes this a 3 year deal or 4 year deal but even if it's the former the base would appears to be 2m AAV, with incentives that could max it out somewhere between 3m-4m AAV. And as long as the signing bonus is $1.5m there's minimal dead money.

it's also more than a little ironic to speculate they should have waited to understand the full cap considerations of this when we've gotten about 3 small nuggets of info re: the contract whereas they wrote the contract, are infinitely more aware of the impacts of the already agreed upon parameters of this season and how they project in the minimum cap for next year.
No you are just wrong  
NoGainDayne : 8/2/2020 12:26 pm : link
they don’t know more. They can’t predict the future. They don’t know if we will have a season or not. They don’t know how players and teams will vote if we don’t have a season. They have more information. Again, I’m just advocating for gathering more information before making moves that there really aren’t any rush to sign. How much does Gates price go up if say he’s a few games in and they figure out how viable a season is? Not that much.

Again, it’s people like you acting like just because the Giants did something it means that it’s smart even if the details to make that assessment aren’t readily available. Suddenly the Giants aren’t just football forecasting experts but infectious disease modelers as well!
RE: Can’t leave behind the  
Eric on Li : 8/2/2020 12:34 pm : link
In comment 14942392 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
“The only person who should have a problem is Gates agent” comment too. Yeah let’s characterize agents as these bumbling idiots just ripe for being taken advantage of by DG. Isn’t it possible that they have some basis for what Gates should be paid and are pushing for the higher end of that? That every negotiation involves risk on the side of both parties? No, no, just an agent that’s going to be kicking himself later for making this deal that is much more beneficial to the Giants than their client


He gave up 2 years of his career for a $1.5m SB. That is a pretty minuscule amount of guaranteed money for a potential starter (less than 1/2 of what Mayo got when he resigned a few months ago).

Next offseason I believe he would have been eligible for an RFA tender - and whichever tender they gave him would have likely resulted in a $2m+ salary.

So yes, I believe the NYG did better in this transaction based on what we know right now than the player did. But everyone's situation is unknown and I can understand wanting some guaranteed money right now with the uncertainty of things. Especially for someone making the minimum.

Quote:
Restricted free agent (RFA): A player with three accrued seasons and an expired contract. RFAs are free to negotiate and sign with any team, but their original team can offer them one of various qualifying offers ("tenders") that come with the right of first refusal and/or draft-pick compensation. If the tender is withdrawn by a team, the RFA becomes an unrestricted free agent. In 2020, teams must submit these tenders before 4 p.m. ET on March 18. These amounts change annually; the following numbers are for the 2020 season. Players can choose either (a) or (b) regardless of which is greater in the applicable tenders below.

The RFA tenders are classified as follows:

First-round tender: One-year contract worth the greater of (a) $4.641 million or (b) 110 percent of the player's prior-year base salary. If the player's original team decides not to match an offer sheet signed with another team, it is entitled to a first-round draft pick from the player's new team. Unless received two days or later prior to the NFL draft, draft compensation for each tender is due in the same league year as the offer sheet is signed.

A signed offer sheet with a new team includes Principal Terms that must be matched by the prior club. However, if the new team includes terms that waive or limit its ability to designate the RFA a franchise player, the old team will not have to match this term if it has tendered the player with an offer worth $500,000 more than the first-round tender ($5.141 million in 2020).

Second-round tender: One-year contract worth the greater of (a) $3.259 million or (b) 110 percent of the player's prior-year base salary. Draft-choice compensation: second-round pick.

Original-round tender: One-year contract worth the greater of (a) $2.133 million or (b) 110 percent of the player's prior-year base salary. Draft-choice compensation: a pick in the round the player was originally drafted in.

Right-of-first-refusal tender: One-year contract worth $2.133 million. Team has the right to match any offer sheet signed with another team, but there is no draft compensation tied to this tender.
You don’t even know  
NoGainDayne : 8/2/2020 12:40 pm : link
what his incentives are yet...

You are the one that doesn’t have enough information before essentially suggesting that Gates was driven to accept a deal because he was worried. Perhaps Gates and his agent thought that he was getting offered a great deal based on how much he’s proven? Why do you have to imply that the Giants got a deal just because of COVID?
RE: No you are just wrong  
Eric on Li : 8/2/2020 12:44 pm : link
In comment 14942403 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
they don’t know more. They can’t predict the future. They don’t know if we will have a season or not. They don’t know how players and teams will vote if we don’t have a season. They have more information. Again, I’m just advocating for gathering more information before making moves that there really aren’t any rush to sign. How much does Gates price go up if say he’s a few games in and they figure out how viable a season is? Not that much.

Again, it’s people like you acting like just because the Giants did something it means that it’s smart even if the details to make that assessment aren’t readily available. Suddenly the Giants aren’t just football forecasting experts but infectious disease modelers as well!


Reductive insults and ironic projection aside, the key details to assess this positively are pretty simple - it's the $1.5m signing bonus because that's all they guaranteed to get 2 extra years of control. If the max risk of $1.5m in dead money if they cut him tomorrow is the hill you want to die on that's your prerogative.
with all of these opinions flying here, can anyone post some tape  
ColHowPepper : 8/2/2020 12:48 pm : link
of Gates' play in 2019? To the end that we can (re-)visit his play and (re-)make up our minds on the guy. I'm now officially intrigued. lol
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 8/2/2020 12:58 pm : link
In comment 14942387 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
Up to 4.4M, while maybe eventually accurate is incredibly disingenuous unless you know what the incentives are. Has anyone shared that info yet? I’d be curious to know what they are. There could be incentives in there that would make that 4.4M seem like a bargain if he achieves them. I don’t think any of us have enough information to be freaking out about this yet


You really push the boundaries of ridiculous. You some how just took a factual statement and falsely twisted it into supporting a counter argument against an argument no one is making.

No one is freaking out and the contract literally is worth up to $10.3M.

If the facts are bothersome to you, maybe just see yourself away from the conversation.
christian whatever the incentives are they won't be paid if he's not  
Eric on Li : 8/2/2020 1:14 pm : link
performing and his roster spot is far from guaranteed bc the $1.5m in max dead money is as much of a non-factor as Cam Flemming's $2m gtd. On that single non-prohibitive parameter this extension can be viewed positively bc it gave the Giants control over deciding to keep him or not for 2 extra years.
...  
christian : 8/2/2020 1:19 pm : link
I don’t think Gates is particularly good, and given he’s never played center in the NFL, I’d rather he prove it, and then tender him next year. Get 2 years of play for ~2.5M total.

If he proves to be a good NFL center — pay him. If he has 2 good years under his belt, you’re going to redo his contract anyway for 2022.

None of this is a tragedy, it’s a low to medium sized transaction. I think the most likely outcome is he’s a back up player in 2021 on a slightly overpaid contract like Spencer Pulley.

RE: ...  
Eric on Li : 8/2/2020 1:34 pm : link
In comment 14942424 christian said:
Quote:
I don’t think Gates is particularly good, and given he’s never played center in the NFL, I’d rather he prove it, and then tender him next year. Get 2 years of play for ~2.5M total.

If he proves to be a good NFL center — pay him. If he has 2 good years under his belt, you’re going to redo his contract anyway for 2022.

None of this is a tragedy, it’s a low to medium sized transaction. I think the most likely outcome is he’s a back up player in 2021 on a slightly overpaid contract like Spencer Pulley.


From the best I can tell from what's been reported, that's very close to what the base of this contract will pay him. Pat reported that his salary remains the same this year ($675k) and based on the total values reported that would likely mean his base is close to $2m next year. The only difference is adding on the extra option year on top of your scenario as well as the $1.5m bonus.

In the limited amount we've seen Gates I've been a lot more intrigued with his ability than Pulley. If they were up against the cap right now I'd have had zero issue cutting Pulley to do this deal with Gates which is why I'm so surprised they were able to get it done for less $ than they gtd Pulley a few years ago. In more time on the field Pulley has had none of the positive flashes Gates had and has far less of the positional versatility.
..:  
christian : 8/2/2020 2:14 pm : link
Without the extension:

2020: 675K salary
2021: ~2.1M tender

Total: 2.85M, 0 dead money

With extension:

2020: 500K bonus, 675 salary
2021: 500K bonus, ~2.66M (minimum)

Total: 4.33M, 500K dead money

At a minimum he will cost 2M more dollars across the next 2 seasons. Again not a tragedy, I just think he’s a nobody, and the type of player you let play it out. Maybe he surprises, maybe he doesn’t.
RE: with all of these opinions flying here, can anyone post some tape  
Klaatu : 8/2/2020 2:17 pm : link
In comment 14942415 ColHowPepper said:
Quote:
of Gates' play in 2019? To the end that we can (re-)visit his play and (re-)make up our minds on the guy. I'm now officially intrigued. lol


No tape, but Sy'56 wrote this after the season finale against Philly:

Quote:
Nick Gates allowed a pressure but other than that, ended the game pretty cleanly. He was the top NYG OL in this one and based on what we have seen this year, he deserves to be in the discussion for an OT spot or a 6th OL spot next year, the latter being preferred. I feel much better about him than I did Chad Wheeler for what it is worth.
the $1.48m difference in the 2 scenarios is well worth 1 extra yr  
Eric on Li : 8/2/2020 2:26 pm : link
With his versatility and the projected open positions on the line there's a pretty good chance he ends up being a starter. He could win RT or C this year. Both starting guards only have 1 year left after this one.

But I guess it all depends on the view of Gates. In his brief playing time I think he showed more ability than a typical journeyman OL like Flemming because he literally appeared to be our best OL in those games. And now he's under contract at a fraction of the cost which is a positive even if he's only a backup. If he proves to be a starter this deal will be a steal and he may have had to get tendered at the $3.2m+ level any way.
...  
christian : 8/2/2020 2:40 pm : link
He’s started 3 total NFL games — the Jets destroying the Giants line, the league worst Dolphins defense, and the Eagles walking all over the Giants. I didn’t come away excited about Gates in any of those games, and I thought it was weird at the time how excited some got.

He’s also barely (if at all) been on the field in front of this staff. I think it’s weird to extend a player the staff hasn’t coached live.

For what amounts to ~2M extra dollars at a minimum, over the next years for a relative nobody I think it’s silly. Hopefully he blows the doors off and and becomes a starter.
the $2m minimum savings is not guaranteed - if he plays well at all  
Eric on Li : 8/2/2020 2:51 pm : link
they would have likely tagged him at the 2nd round tender level ($3.5m+) since his original draft round would essentially make him a UFA. Even if he repeated his exact performance from last year in a part time role if any other teams out there agreed with the assessment that he can compete for a starting role he'd have been at risk enough of getting signed away for nothing. And if he did play well as a starter, what do you think his price tag would have been to extend then?

We won't know for sure until we see the full details but I don't think this deal raised the amount he was likely to pocket the next 2 years if at all, it just gave him some security (the guaranteed $1.5m + this year's base) and possible incentives in return for the giants getting full control of his rights for 2 years after this one.
If it weren't for the giant whiff on Nate Solder I think we'd all  
Zeke's Alibi : 8/2/2020 4:20 pm : link
agree DG knows what he's looking at when looking at OL. Things happen though and maybe the confluence of events of injury, his child having cancer, and going from the best oline coach in game to the worst had an unforeseeable complete drop off in play.

Is it not possible that what they've recognized in him this move is very low risk high reward. I think they've identified him as someone that at the very least is your quintessential 6th olineman who can play multiple positions at a decent level. But what if he turns out to be more than that? He'd price himself out completely. Sure if he shows no progress it might turn out to be a slight overpay, but it could end up saving us a ton of money. Possibly DG has seen some things that give him hope he turns into a solid starter in this league.
It’s just these overly accretive statements  
NoGainDayne : 8/2/2020 5:00 pm : link
like DG knows the OL other than Solder that it’s just like to what end?

omameh Immediately comes to mind. But it’s not isolated. And also, maybe things have changed in the many years DG has been doing this and recent history is more relevant.



christian  
XBRONX : 8/2/2020 5:09 pm : link
So you are saying Nick Gates didn't play well in the three games he started?
...  
christian : 8/2/2020 5:48 pm : link
Gettleman has had several misses choosing lineman for the Giants. Solder, Remmers, Omameh, Halopio, Flowers at right tackle — he’s acknowledged this in crystal clear terms.

He had a nice run in Carolina with some late round guys, but what bearing does that have on the Giants now? He’s been a mixed bag in NY, so I’m not penciling in any move as a forgone success.

I think Gates was a mixed bag, and looked a lot better at tackle than guard. But I don’t think the sample size and competition is enough to draw a conclusion.

I’d rather the Giants had let him prove himself more on the field, with this staff. If he presented himself really well next year, tender him.
no one could have foreseen  
bc4life : 8/2/2020 6:03 pm : link
how much Solder struggled. Remmers - his back was never right, probably should have sat out last season to heal.

Flowers was a Gettleman pick?
RE: no one could have foreseen  
christian : 8/2/2020 6:13 pm : link
In comment 14942553 bc4life said:
Quote:
how much Solder struggled. Remmers - his back was never right, probably should have sat out last season to heal.

Flowers was a Gettleman pick?


Lots of fans weren’t excited about Solder and felt it was an unwise contract at the time. If Remmers was in such bad physical shape, the Giants should not have signed him. Gettleman had a choice to make with Flowers, and instead of cutting, trading, or burying him on the depth chart — he put in motion the scenario that landed Flowers still starting, and incredibly, sucking even more.
I think DG was put in an impossible position with our oline  
Zeke's Alibi : 8/2/2020 7:00 pm : link
and was trying to make the best out of a bad situation. Even mediocre OL don't hit FA unless they have some major flags like age or injury. DG has shown that he can evaluate OL when given an even playing and that is why he does well grabbing them in the draft and UDFA. The one that is concerning is Pio, but dude broke his leg in his second game of a new position. Who knows how that affected his development, especially with a position switch at a later age.
RE: It’s just these overly accretive statements  
BlueLou'sBack : 8/2/2020 8:31 pm : link
In comment 14942534 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
like DG knows the OL other than Solder that it’s just like to what end?

omameh Immediately comes to mind. But it’s not isolated. And also, maybe things have changed in the many years DG has been doing this and recent history is more relevant.




What is "recent history"?

IDK, but I think the most recent history would be drafting Thomas, Peart, and Lemieux in rounds 1,3,5 and signing the Rhode Island kid as a priority UDFA. Before than, Big George in round 7, before that Hernandez in round 2, Gates as a priority UDFA, and signing Solder and Omameh.

Not too much before those moves you had DG drafting Trai Turner, Daryl Williams, and signing Norwell as a priority UDFA.

I've linked an article below about Dan Shonka's thoughts about Nick Gates. He graded Gates as a 3rd or 4th round value...

Some folks thought Lemieux was a 2nd or 3rd round value.

One thing in common among Gates, Lemieux, Peart, and above all Andrew Thomas, these guys all started a whole lot of college games, began starting as redshirt freshmen or even as true freshmen and earned at least honorable mention all conference or all conference or even all American recognition.

But best of all, they played like every freaking game they were asked to, or very close to that.

There's a record there with these guys, first and foremost, plenty of tape, and in some cases some rare athletic talent to boot.

But it seems the rare athletic traits are the last thing Gettleman is looking for in the OL rookies he's brought in. Maybe above all it's reliability and consistency.

Maybe that's more hope than reality, we'll see soon enough.


Nick Gates gets a 3rd or 4th round grade from Ourlads Shonka. - ( New Window )
Let’s call recent history DGs Giants tenure  
NoGainDayne : 8/2/2020 9:22 pm : link
And use Christians examples as counter examples.

What are DGs OL wins to balance against those here?

We have Thomas and Peart is presumptive wins already? Isn’t it about asset allocation though? You could pick OL with premium picks every year and you’ll surely have a good OL eventually
i have high hopes that this will be the thread that finally resolves  
Eric on Li : 8/2/2020 9:31 pm : link
everyone's feelings on Gettleman.

RE: If it weren't for the giant whiff on Nate Solder I think we'd all  
LBH15 : 8/2/2020 9:46 pm : link
In comment 14942516 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
agree DG knows what he's looking at when looking at OL.


No, we don’t all agree. Gettleman’s successes in Carolina on OL have not continued as a NY Giant. In fact, if the guys he drafted on the OL this year do not pan out, and quickly, he is finished in football.
RE: no one could have foreseen  
LBH15 : 8/2/2020 9:47 pm : link
In comment 14942553 bc4life said:
Quote:
how much Solder struggled. Remmers - his back was never right, probably should have sat out last season to heal.

Flowers was a Gettleman pick?


Nobody?
RE: I think DG was put in an impossible position with our oline  
LBH15 : 8/2/2020 9:49 pm : link
In comment 14942574 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
and was trying to make the best out of a bad situation. Even mediocre OL don't hit FA unless they have some major flags like age or injury. DG has shown that he can evaluate OL when given an even playing and that is why he does well grabbing them in the draft and UDFA. The one that is concerning is Pio, but dude broke his leg in his second game of a new position. Who knows how that affected his development, especially with a position switch at a later age.


This is the poster child post to being DG defender.

An impossible situation...haha!
RE: RE: It’s just these overly accretive statements  
LBH15 : 8/2/2020 9:55 pm : link
In comment 14942664 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
In comment 14942534 NoGainDayne said:


Quote:


like DG knows the OL other than Solder that it’s just like to what end?

omameh Immediately comes to mind. But it’s not isolated. And also, maybe things have changed in the many years DG has been doing this and recent history is more relevant.






What is "recent history"?

IDK, but I think the most recent history would be drafting Thomas, Peart, and Lemieux in rounds 1,3,5 and signing the Rhode Island kid as a priority UDFA. Before than, Big George in round 7, before that Hernandez in round 2, Gates as a priority UDFA, and signing Solder and Omameh.

Not too much before those moves you had DG drafting Trai Turner, Daryl Williams, and signing Norwell as a priority UDFA.

I've linked an article below about Dan Shonka's thoughts about Nick Gates. He graded Gates as a 3rd or 4th round value...

Some folks thought Lemieux was a 2nd or 3rd round value.

One thing in common among Gates, Lemieux, Peart, and above all Andrew Thomas, these guys all started a whole lot of college games, began starting as redshirt freshmen or even as true freshmen and earned at least honorable mention all conference or all conference or even all American recognition.

But best of all, they played like every freaking game they were asked to, or very close to that.

There's a record there with these guys, first and foremost, plenty of tape, and in some cases some rare athletic talent to boot.

But it seems the rare athletic traits are the last thing Gettleman is looking for in the OL rookies he's brought in. Maybe above all it's reliability and consistency.

Maybe that's more hope than reality, we'll see soon enough.
Nick Gates gets a 3rd or 4th round grade from Ourlads Shonka. - ( New Window )


I think the guys just drafted need to play a few games as a Giant before you can use them as support to defend DG on his offensive line prowess. The Carolina examples are good but his recent work as the NY Giant GM kind of deflate that goodwill.
That's just it, exactly:  
BlueLou'sBack : 8/3/2020 12:01 am : link
Quote:
The Carolina examples are good but his recent work as the NY Giant GM kind of deflate that goodwill.


Your or any other fans' "goodwill" doesn't do shit for me, or the team. You and other dummies here don't get it.

What matters to a real fan is whether or not DG has the skill to identify superior players, and to draft them at appropriate slots or scoop them up as UDFAs.

The Gates extension is a sign, at least a faintly lit sign, that DG got his signing right. And DG has skins on the wall to point out he's done it before, more than once. My bet right now is Gates turns out about as useful as Justin Pugh or Weston Richburg, that cost Reese first and second round picks, respectively.

Hell if Gates is even close to their utility, he's a far superior signing by value.

I think we would've seen a different approach on the unwise vet signings if DG wasn't trying to give Eli one more shot at the big dance.

So yeah he's made big mistakes, but over-drafting a dud OL for the Giants hasn't been one of them, yet.
RE: That's just it, exactly:  
LBH15 : 8/3/2020 7:35 am : link
In comment 14942813 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:


Quote:


The Carolina examples are good but his recent work as the NY Giant GM kind of deflate that goodwill.



Your or any other fans' "goodwill" doesn't do shit for me, or the team. You and other dummies here don't get it.

What matters to a real fan is whether or not DG has the skill to identify superior players, and to draft them at appropriate slots or scoop them up as UDFAs.

The Gates extension is a sign, at least a faintly lit sign, that DG got his signing right. And DG has skins on the wall to point out he's done it before, more than once. My bet right now is Gates turns out about as useful as Justin Pugh or Weston Richburg, that cost Reese first and second round picks, respectively.

Hell if Gates is even close to their utility, he's a far superior signing by value.

I think we would've seen a different approach on the unwise vet signings if DG wasn't trying to give Eli one more shot at the big dance.

So yeah he's made big mistakes, but over-drafting a dud OL for the Giants hasn't been one of them, yet.


Ok, a handful to unpack here.

I think the goodwill I referred to is the same thing you are referring to as "skins on the wall". You call it out even though it doesn't seem to do shit for you?

What matters to a fan is a GM has a plan to build and sustain a winning roster and succeeds doing it. For real or probably even fake ones. TBD in year 3 to be generous.

The Gates signing is a sign of nothing. We don't even know if he is a starter yet for one of the weaker OL teams in the league. Maybe and if he can do well the team is better off, but would like to think there are stronger supporting examples than this for DG's keen ability to id superior signings that you are promoting.

And the different approach you refer to than give Eli one more shot at the big dance is probably better referred to as the proper approach.
RE: Let’s call recent history DGs Giants tenure  
BlueLou'sBack : 8/3/2020 10:15 pm : link
In comment 14942709 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
And use Christians examples as counter examples.

What are DGs OL wins to balance against those here?

We have Thomas and Peart is presumptive wins already? Isn’t it about asset allocation though? You could pick OL with premium picks every year and you’ll surely have a good OL eventually


Recent history is DG's current tenure with the Giants as GM?

Well then you can't possibly ding him so far as drafted OL and UDFA pickups go, because your "recent history" has zero historical record, Duh'oh.

From his very first year as GM, we have Hernandez and Gates, period. Has either been in the league playing long enough to even receive a grade,No!

So I call BS on your baloney definition of "recent history." You're doing what every phoney does, drawing up a straw man to justify your previously formed opinion.

I thought you were at least a little brighter than that.
I'll decline your invitation at animosity  
NoGainDayne : 8/4/2020 2:49 am : link
but I do find it funny how worked up you've allowed yourself to get over Nick Gates.

I came on this thread because I was wondering why the Giants moves didn't have more apparent logic to them. This isn't the kind of move you see often. And it came right after the Solder opt out, which again, the timing shouldn't really trigger an extension when a highly overpaid player at the same position extends the length of their contracted tenure with a team.

Somehow on this thread we had people:

- "Zero risk"
- Intimating the only person that could be upset about this is Gates representatives

No you ask me to define recent history and you want to reject my definition? As if a term of 2.5 years isn't fair to use with the term recent history?

And then you imply that just because I won't chalk up people that have never played a down as NFL football as wins? Or this suggestion you seem to be making that we should ignore poor FA acquisitions that Gettleman has made for the OL and evaluate him solely on drafted players? Who made that distinction? Other than you randomly

Sorry not everyone wants to get out the pom poms for a player that has started 3 games. How many players get signed to extensions after 3 starts would you say? Does it not make even less sense to do this when the cap might be going down an unknown amount? As I said very simply at before it doesn't seem like other teams are doing things like this, are there other examples i'm missing?

Maybe people do feel like they need to say something so we don't get these ridiculous statements like no one would have ever called the Solder move a bad move at the time
NGD again I thought you were brighter than this diatribe.  
BlueLou'sBack : 8/4/2020 9:19 am : link
You've overstuffed the chicken here, so I'm only now going to point out - FOR THE SECOND TIME - Solders effective and relevant contract hasn't been "extended" in the least.

Many have projected he would be cut (given a normal 2020 season, his continued poor or at best mediocre play, and Thomas looking as the Giants and many scouts thought he would at the NFL level, like a future franchise LT) after 2020 and prior to 2021, with one year of guaranteed bonus money left as his dead cap hit.

Guess what? Sitting out 2020 HAS NOT AFFECTED THAT AT ALL. The portion of his contract that tolled, or "extended" as you put it, is not one white due him if he is cut.

Can you at least figure that out? Look it up. I heard this discussed in detail in a few podcasts.
risk of $1.5m signing bonus is the same as dying from a paper cut  
Eric on Li : 8/4/2020 10:39 am : link
You can call that 'risk free' or whatever you would like but it's a complete non factor in any other move accounting for the top 51 going forward with a cap that will be at minimum $175m. They could literally cut him tomorrow, which obviously won't happen, and there would be no practical impact. Literally none. And the risk prorates downward from there.

Also the way I'm reading the RFA rules I posted in this thread, next year they would have had to tender Gates at more than $3m in order to protect his rights (setting him up as a UFA the following year) or else his original round tender ($2m+) would basically make him a defacto UFA next offseason. Which of those outcomes was preferable? Let me guess, the unicorn shitting rainbows option - if he plays well use the powers of persuasion to keep him without having to pay a lot more than a $1.5m bonus?

The 'crap on everything the giants do' routine is truly insufferable when directed at even the most inconsequential of moves. Gates last year looked like 1 of the first promising young OL prospects we've seen in a years - so naturally the giants are morons for keeping him around! Even if he never progresses beyond being a swing 6th man like he was last year, is this an organization in a position to allow any promising OL to walk for nothing? Certainly not when they can get his name on a 3 year extension for the equivalent of next to nothing ($1.5m sb).
seems like "zero risk" to me too  
UConn4523 : 8/4/2020 10:50 am : link
unreal that the above quote is being taken so far out of context that we are getting lectured on it down to the individual penny.
RE: seems like  
Eric on Li : 8/4/2020 10:58 am : link
In comment 14943651 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
unreal that the above quote is being taken so far out of context that we are getting lectured on it down to the individual penny.


"Nick Bosa's trade demand and record setting $150m extension with to Giants scuttled by cap hell resulting from Nick Gates' $1.5m signing bonus. Gettleman says 'computers guys thought juice was worth the squeeze'"
There’s “no risk”  
UConn4523 : 8/4/2020 11:25 am : link
with me putting $20 on powerball 1x per year other than it’s going to be $20 I’ll never get back.

Same type of risk here. If I can’t pay my mortgage after my decision to play the lottery and if the Giants can’t get better players in here despite this minuscule amount of guaranteed money, then there’s much larger problems at play.
It's..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/4/2020 11:44 am : link
not that hard to figure out why the thread went sideways. A guy who rails about analytics wanted to continue to beat the drum that there was no need for the extension by making insinuations that there isn't any logic to it. Again, trying to act like he has insight on things he clearly doesn't and hasn't.

Dying on anthills is going to be the new normal because he's been swallowed up by the sinkholes.
this is exactly the type of analytics driven move successful teams  
UConn4523 : 8/4/2020 11:52 am : link
make anyway. If Gates ends up being a solid starter we will have that at below market rate. If he doesn't, the guarantees are so minuscule where its essentially "risk free".

The risk/reward on this heavily favors the reward.
...  
christian : 8/4/2020 12:04 pm : link
There are a couple of things we know and don’t know, that ultimately will determine if this was a good extension.

- Gettleman has strung together arguably the worst offensive line two years running, so he’s not infallible in player selection
- Nick Gates has logged 3 total NFL starts
- None of the dollars at play are tragic
- One potential downside — what are the accelerators for the upper bounds of 21 and 22? My first blush fear is the 21 salary gets guaranteed based on an easy to achieve 20 factor. For example games started in 2020. I’d hate for Gates to cost 5M in 21 just because he logs a bunch of stinkers this year.
RE: this is exactly the type of analytics driven move successful teams  
christian : 8/4/2020 12:11 pm : link
In comment 14943693 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
make anyway. If Gates ends up being a solid starter we will have that at below market rate.


Depends on the position — if he is the starting center in 21/22 at ~5M AAV — currently that would slot him right in the middle of position salary band. So I would call it market, not below market.

That..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/4/2020 12:22 pm : link
$5M number is probably referenced on the high side for a particular reason.

Wouldn't Gates get $4.9M only if he achieves all of the incentives?

Like UConn said - this is a very low-risk move and one the analytics guys should like. That they are quibbling about it seems like there's a different agenda at hand.

RE: That..  
christian : 8/4/2020 12:51 pm : link
In comment 14943727 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
$5M number is probably referenced on the high side for a particular reason.

Wouldn't Gates get $4.9M only if he achieves all of the incentives?

Like UConn said - this is a very low-risk move and one the analytics guys should like. That they are quibbling about it seems like there's a different agenda at hand.


Seems weirdly paranoid to think stating the presumed numbers is agenda driven. It's a real possible outcome.

The only interesting question left is what are the incentives? If they are easy to achieve and guarantee his salaries in 21 and 22, this isn't a crafty analytical achievement.

If his 21 salary is guaranteed at the upper end because his suits and sucks in 2020 -- we'd all agree that's not to the teams benefit, right?
RE: RE: this is exactly the type of analytics driven move successful teams  
UConn4523 : 8/4/2020 1:52 pm : link
In comment 14943714 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14943693 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


make anyway. If Gates ends up being a solid starter we will have that at below market rate.



Depends on the position — if he is the starting center in 21/22 at ~5M AAV — currently that would slot him right in the middle of position salary band. So I would call it market, not below market.


Not on new deals it wouldn't. This is currently the 18th/19th highest yearly average salary but its has almost no guarantees and several others haven't gotten their next contract yet.

Its basically at the top of the bottom 1/3 for Center money.
and to FMiCs point  
UConn4523 : 8/4/2020 1:56 pm : link
what are the accelerators? Wouldn't he have to play well to earn the full salary, which is basically a double-whammy for this being a low risk move?

I wouldn't call our takes paranoid. We are simply pointing out that an analytics guy is citing this contract down to the penny when in reality its exactly the type of deal that positional value/analytics focused people would like.

Its $6.8 base with a $10.325 max, which includes a $1.5m signing bonus. This is practically as low risk as it gets.
RE: RE: RE: this is exactly the type of analytics driven move successful teams  
Zeke's Alibi : 8/4/2020 2:36 pm : link
In comment 14943785 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 14943714 christian said:


Quote:


In comment 14943693 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


make anyway. If Gates ends up being a solid starter we will have that at below market rate.



Depends on the position — if he is the starting center in 21/22 at ~5M AAV — currently that would slot him right in the middle of position salary band. So I would call it market, not below market.




Not on new deals it wouldn't. This is currently the 18th/19th highest yearly average salary but its has almost no guarantees and several others haven't gotten their next contract yet.

Its basically at the top of the bottom 1/3 for Center money.


Christian is a smart guy, he knew that. He's arguing like a lawyer would, trying to push an agenda, and that is why it is so hard to talk anything on the internet anymore.
Economics and timing aside, the Giants without question  
LBH15 : 8/4/2020 2:46 pm : link
need some good fortune to occur on the Offensive Line and soon. An UDFA like Gates becoming a reliable starter at a position or versatile reserve would be just what the doctor ordered.

The heavy investment in the draft this year on the OL was basically mandatory with deteriorating Solder and the open positions at Tackle and Center staring DG in the face. And Hernandez also wasn't earning too many game balls with his poor second year either.

How many GMs and Head Coaches does this franchise have to churn before they get this OL stabilized? That's a rhetorical.

RE: RE: That..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/4/2020 3:33 pm : link
In comment 14943758 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14943727 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


$5M number is probably referenced on the high side for a particular reason.

Wouldn't Gates get $4.9M only if he achieves all of the incentives?

Like UConn said - this is a very low-risk move and one the analytics guys should like. That they are quibbling about it seems like there's a different agenda at hand.




Seems weirdly paranoid to think stating the presumed numbers is agenda driven. It's a real possible outcome.

The only interesting question left is what are the incentives? If they are easy to achieve and guarantee his salaries in 21 and 22, this isn't a crafty analytical achievement.

If his 21 salary is guaranteed at the upper end because his suits and sucks in 2020 -- we'd all agree that's not to the teams benefit, right?


Paranoid?? No. Like UConn said - why would you report the highest possible number while trying to position the move as if it isn't all that great of a deal?? Two things:

1) If he plays well and hits the high limit of the contract (of which we don't know what the incentives are), then it is well worth the lower than average contract.

2) If he doesn't play all that great, it likely is a contract no where near $5M.

We want the "real possible outcome" to happen. And even if it does, the contract is still a bargain.

It has to be tough to be a constant contrarian and have to avoid the pitfalls of arguing against situations you've previously argued for!
What would be the likely incentives for an Off Lineman  
chick310 : 8/4/2020 5:07 pm : link
who has only played a few games and isn't a slam dunk to win a starting job?

Something as simple as number of starts maybe?
...  
christian : 8/4/2020 5:17 pm : link
It’s pretty silly to for either side to jump to a definitive conclusion on the prudence of the extension without the most germane facts: what are the incentives.

If the incentives are such that the compensation only hits the ceiling if he performs like a decent starter, sweet. Good, savvy contract.

If the incentives are such that the compensation hits the ceiling if he suits and up and sucks 16 games next year, not a savvy contract.

What’s the point of view you think I am trying to contradict?
Lou you are the one dancing around the relevant facts here  
NoGainDayne : 8/4/2020 5:57 pm : link
And they are:

1) Solder opting out makes cutting him next year more costly to the team than if he played out this season

2) The contract is on the books for a year later than it was before he did

What pulls us even further away from the point I was making while you accuse me of distracting is that I joined this thread asking for the logic of the timing of the signing.

For the timing to make logical sense to sign an extension wouldn't you want more potential cap room next year? That would provide the logic for this move I was asking for. Whatever you want to say about the opt out it certainly doesn't provide the Giants with more room next year so why would that be a good catalyst to extend someone?

It really highlights the problematic thinking of some here that those that are asking for the logic behind moves are told they have an agenda for pointing out that this might not be a good move and we need more facts. I came here asking for facts, asking if other teams were making moves like this given the uncertain financial future of the league. Doesn't it show much more of an agenda that there are many on this thread that essentially want to say that no one could possibly see fault in this before we even know the full terms of the deal?

You even rob yourself of the ability for your opinion to matter once the full terms are disclosed because you made up your mind before you had all the information.

My conclusion is that at its peak  
UConn4523 : 8/4/2020 6:02 pm : link
it’s a bargain unless he absolutely stinks which likely means he won’t get the full amount and we can cut him. This isn’t a fully guaranteed contract, there’s almost no downside here.

What am I missing?
RE: My conclusion is that at its peak  
christian : 8/4/2020 6:27 pm : link
In comment 14943910 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
it’s a bargain unless he absolutely stinks which likely means he won’t get the full amount and we can cut him. This isn’t a fully guaranteed contract, there’s almost no downside here.

What am I missing?


As of now:

- 2021 ~5M cap hit would be 15th among centers
- 2022 ~5M cap hit would be 11th among centers

I’d argue the contract would be fair, but not a bargain. Especially if the cap shrinks.

What we don’t know is what the incentive escalators are. We don’t know what becomes guaranteed in the contract and why. The downside is if an easy to reach incentive in 2020 does in fact guarantee a lot of his 2021 salary.

Again, this isn’t a tragedy, but there are some minor details that could make this look less savvy.
It's also this idea that some want to hold  
NoGainDayne : 8/4/2020 6:50 pm : link
that we should assume it is a savvy move because the Giants did it. When the Giants have made many head scratching moves that seemed unwise at the moment they happened.

Resources are finite and given that the team had the most dead money in the league the last few years wouldn't you want to see them handing out less bonus money, especially to a player that has started 3 games? Especially with a potentially declining cap and a chunk of anticipated dead money on the OL already next year?

It is quite reasonable to point out a flaw in analysis of many on this board that they want to declare the deal a good value before even seeing the terms of the deal. It's not really sound analysis to do that generally but in light of the record of this front office in FA it isn't outlandish at all to suggest that it would be nice to have more apparent logic in moves that are made.

"It's not a big deal if we are wrong" is not a super great reason to do something.

There are good systems in place that a lot of teams use. What would be wrong with letting him play the season and tendering him at the 2nd round level of $2.914 next year?

You can let him see what the market is and how he fits in your system.

Let's say he's coming off two good years instead after this contract and he's a UFA you actually lose the leverage of him being restricted that way.

The point is there are a lot of unknowns here. And it seems many the Giants included are in the habit of acting like they have all the answers before they've even allowed themselves to get the best information.

You constantly hear about the LW thing and people making "too big of a deal" of something.

Expecting something to go well shouldn't require an assumption that people know things you don't, plenty of decisions make lots of sense with small or large amounts of information on them.

LOL...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/4/2020 7:36 pm : link
Quote:
It's also this idea that some want to hold
NoGainDayne : 6:50 pm : link : reply
that we should assume it is a savvy move because the Giants did it. When the Giants have made many head scratching moves that seemed unwise at the moment they happened.


Isn't the exact opposite thing happening on this thread? A select few are questioning the move because the Giants made it, even though there's very little downside to it.

In fact, the most germane question continually asked on this thread is by UConn - "What is the downside?"

It shouldn't take a multi-paragraph load of bullshit talking about "good systems" and other vapid lines of nothingness to answer that.
And if this..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/4/2020 7:38 pm : link
isn't the epitome of irony, I don't know what is:

Quote:
The point is there are a lot of unknowns here. And it seems many the Giants included are in the habit of acting like they have all the answers before they've even allowed themselves to get the best information.


Acting like having the answers before having information?? Too fucking rich.
The downside is the dead money potential from the signing bonus  
NoGainDayne : 8/4/2020 8:22 pm : link
added to his contract after 3 starts, which seems like unnecessary risk given how much that player has proven.

One side is insisting it is a good move before seeing the terms of the deal. And pointing out there is a lot of uncertainty right now that may affect if it is a good deal.

The other side is basically saying the only possible way to view this move is that it is a good move before they have all the facts.


Exactly FMIC - nobody is fitting Gates for a gold jacket  
Eric on Li : 8/4/2020 8:23 pm : link
just saying a $1.5m signing bonus is so insignificant regardless of how he plays there's no risk. They literally have enough cap room right now to sign/extend 15 more Nick Gates and cut all of them tomorrow. Though it certainly doesn't hurt that there's also optimism re: Gates on the field from a diversity of fans/writers outside of NYG HQ, along with the promising highlights and stats (1 sack allowed, 0 penalties in 290 snaps last year per PFF).

And as Uconn has pointed out re: Christians point, he will only see those higher AAV's if he is hitting his incentives. We may not know the specifics yet but they are unlikely to be "Nick Gates gets $5m if he sucks so bad everyone wishes we didn't sign him in the first place".
RE: The downside is the dead money potential from the signing bonus  
Eric on Li : 8/4/2020 8:26 pm : link
In comment 14943962 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
added to his contract after 3 starts, which seems like unnecessary risk given how much that player has proven.

One side is insisting it is a good move before seeing the terms of the deal. And pointing out there is a lot of uncertainty right now that may affect if it is a good deal.

The other side is basically saying the only possible way to view this move is that it is a good move before they have all the facts.



There is seemingly 0 uncertainty that he only got $1.5m guaranteed.

Kevin Abrams is likely more worried about getting struck by lightning than being handcuffed by dead money from this contract.
Gates will be retired by the time this silly debate over  
chick310 : 8/4/2020 8:35 pm : link
his contract is finished. He may not have played many games yet to ensure his value but neither has most of guys on the OL depth chart.

And not for nothing but if Gates becomes a starter, it is far more likely at Right Tackle versus Center.

RE: The downside is the dead money potential from the signing bonus  
Milton : 8/4/2020 8:59 pm : link
In comment 14943962 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
added to his contract after 3 starts, which seems like unnecessary risk given how much that player has proven.
Wow, you must be truly outraged by the contract they gave Andrew Thomas! Think of all that dead money potential for a guy who's never played a down against NFL competition.
It's an extension  
NoGainDayne : 8/4/2020 9:06 pm : link
vs. a rookie deal for a 4th pick. Surely you understand the difference?
I also think it's pretty ignorant  
NoGainDayne : 8/4/2020 9:20 pm : link
to act like we shouldn't be concerned around accumulating dead money when we've lead the league over the last 3 years.

Har har har Kevin Abrams joke. He's been here as the cap guy for every one of those contracts.

Risk should be managed at all sizes of contracts. Is the supposition as long as a signing bonus is $1.5M it really doesn't matter who you give it to? Hey, just cut them if they don't pan out right?
So..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/4/2020 9:27 pm : link
I'm guessing the answer to what the downside is will be left hanging in the air....
The signing bonus as dead money is the downside  
NoGainDayne : 8/4/2020 9:32 pm : link
...

Perhaps you'd like to give an example of another NFL team handing out a contract like this right now?
If the downside is considered..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/4/2020 9:44 pm : link
the downside of this, you will have a problem with almost all contracts. And for some reason, you keep trying to tie having dead money in past years to this move, where it is a very reasonable contract.

I'm not really sure I understand the question about who else is getting contracts like this. I mean, you can look at Keith Smith a FB for the Falcons. Matthew Slater, a career ST'er for the Pats, Zach Wood, a LS for the Saints or the contracts for 14 other reserve players that SPORTRAC is showing happened.
looking at the roster  
bc4life : 8/4/2020 9:52 pm : link
as it stands right now - he's the swing OT who can also play guard?
...  
christian : 8/4/2020 10:57 pm : link
From my view:

- the upside scenario is he performs at or above league average at center,(or guard or tackle, that would awesome) reaches the incentives and earns ~11M over the next 3 years

- the neutral scenario is he doesn’t play league average or above starter and is relegated to backup “something” and earns ~5-7M the next 2 or 3 years

- downside scenarios, he is cut after next year, or reaches the incentives to be paid the full amount, but isn’t all that good — for instance if the incentives are around starts or snaps

Food for thought Halopio started 15 games and 95% of snaps. If those are the parameters to up the cost, and he plays as bad that would suck.
RE: I also think it's pretty ignorant  
Eric on Li : 8/4/2020 10:59 pm : link
In comment 14943994 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
to act like we shouldn't be concerned around accumulating dead money when we've lead the league over the last 3 years.

Har har har Kevin Abrams joke. He's been here as the cap guy for every one of those contracts.

Risk should be managed at all sizes of contracts. Is the supposition as long as a signing bonus is $1.5M it really doesn't matter who you give it to? Hey, just cut them if they don't pan out right?


Kevin Abrams made the FA decisions in 2016 or the decisions to resign + trade JPP/Beckham? Pretty sure they led the league in dead money because the of $200m guaranteed the respective GMs gave those guys, not because Abrams did a poor job structuring the contracts and certainly not because they gave a some back roster players like Keenan Robinson or Will Johnson less than 1% of the guaranteed money they gave those guys.

Being an aficionado on dead money you probably already know this but it surprised me just now to see that at the moment the NYG are actually about $4m better than the league average. Somehow I missed all the positive posts on this trend from the dead money enthusiast sub-community. So they could cut Nick Gates twice tomorrow and eat the entire dead cap hit twice while still being below the league average because it's that inconsequential an amount of money.
RE: looking at the roster  
Eric on Li : 8/4/2020 11:02 pm : link
In comment 14944015 bc4life said:
Quote:
as it stands right now - he's the swing OT who can also play guard?


I think he's probably the top contender at either RT or C - whichever he's better at and/or the 2nd option is worse at. At C that could be Pulley or Lemiux, at RT it could be either Flemming or Peart.

C is probably the best position for his skill set but also the bigger unknown since he's never played there and never snapped.
It is..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/4/2020 11:19 pm : link
much easier to just throw out the pithy line that we led the league in dead money the past two years:

Quote:
Being an aficionado on dead money you probably already know this but it surprised me just now to see that at the moment the NYG are actually about $4m better than the league average. Somehow I missed all the positive posts on this trend from the dead money enthusiast sub-community.


recognizing improvement takes away a key narrative they want to keep ramrodded down on the board.
I’ll take the $1.5m in dead money risk for a potentially starting  
UConn4523 : 8/4/2020 11:21 pm : link
caliber OL. Stop acting like this handcuffs the team. It’s a savvy move because the risk is so low, doesn’t matter which team handed out the contract.
RE: RE: looking at the roster  
LBH15 : 8/4/2020 11:38 pm : link
In comment 14944082 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 14944015 bc4life said:


Quote:


as it stands right now - he's the swing OT who can also play guard?



I think he's probably the top contender at either RT or C - whichever he's better at and/or the 2nd option is worse at. At C that could be Pulley or Lemiux, at RT it could be either Flemming or Peart.

C is probably the best position for his skill set but also the bigger unknown since he's never played there and never snapped.


Center is his best position and yet he has never played there? Ever.

I think we need to take DG’s comments with a grain of salt, particularly since he hasn’t seemed to be able to find this team an adequate Center as of yet. It could be a pipe dream for all we know.
i'd also contend you don't see too many deals like this bc it's a shit  
Eric on Li : 8/4/2020 11:50 pm : link
deal for the player. Let's for a second put ourselves in Nick Gates' shoes - pretend we believe in ourselves and feel good about this situation competing for 2 open starting spots. Which would you rather:

'20 - play this year on your base
'21 - get tendered at either $2.1m or $3.2m in March or hit UFA ($2m tender = de facto FA, if $3m you're a UFA in '22)
'22 - UFA

'20 - play this year on your base and get $1.5m check
'21 - make between $2-4m next year depending on incentives or get cut
'22 - make between $2-4m the year depending on incentives or get cut

This is one that will take more detailed analysis once the full contract is available but I suspect the salaries are close to similar in either scenario and both would be non-guaranteed.

So I think this decision basically boils down to a choice between $1.5m check today or reaching UFA 1 or 2 years earlier. That $1.5m just sees really light considering even Spencer Pulley got more guaranteed money a few years ago and as an observer I'd easily prefer Gates > Pulley. But obviously who knows what Gates' personal situation is and how to factor in the uncertainty of C19.
Finish reading the sentence next time LBH  
Eric on Li : 8/4/2020 11:55 pm : link
In comment 14944101 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In comment 14944082 Eric on Li said:

I think he's probably the top contender at either RT or C - whichever he's better at and/or the 2nd option is worse at. At C that could be Pulley or Lemiux, at RT it could be either Flemming or Peart.

C is probably the best position for his skill set but also the bigger unknown since he's never played there and never snapped.



Center is his best position and yet he has never played there? Ever.

I think we need to take DG’s comments with a grain of salt, particularly since he hasn’t seemed to be able to find this team an adequate Center as of yet. It could be a pipe dream for all we know.


And skillset does not always equal best position. But his strength seems to be his mobility and movement which would probably translate better on the interior than at T at his size, but who knows. Maybe he's Bakhtiari II.
RE: I’ll take the $1.5m in dead money risk for a potentially starting  
Big Blue '56 : 8/5/2020 6:42 am : link
In comment 14944090 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
caliber OL. Stop acting like this handcuffs the team. It’s a savvy move because the risk is so low, doesn’t matter which team handed out the contract.


This.

We can move on now
RE: Finish reading the sentence next time LBH  
LBH15 : 8/5/2020 8:48 am : link
In comment 14944108 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 14944101 LBH15 said:


Quote:


In comment 14944082 Eric on Li said:

I think he's probably the top contender at either RT or C - whichever he's better at and/or the 2nd option is worse at. At C that could be Pulley or Lemiux, at RT it could be either Flemming or Peart.

C is probably the best position for his skill set but also the bigger unknown since he's never played there and never snapped.



Center is his best position and yet he has never played there? Ever.

I think we need to take DG’s comments with a grain of salt, particularly since he hasn’t seemed to be able to find this team an adequate Center as of yet. It could be a pipe dream for all we know.



And skillset does not always equal best position. But his strength seems to be his mobility and movement which would probably translate better on the interior than at T at his size, but who knows. Maybe he's Bakhtiari II.


Eric I read the whole sentence and you went several bridges too far. His skills have been presented in exactly 3 whole starts and all at different positions than the one you said he probably is best skilled at. Nowhere near enough to make such an assessment for a coach no less a fan poster.

Look, I am sure we all we would like Gates to be a contributor and maybe even a solid guy somewhere on the line. Obviously DG sees something in him hence the nice extension. But seems like we should wait to see if hikes the football over Daniel Jones head too much before we call Center his best position.

RE: It's an extension  
Milton : 8/5/2020 9:10 am : link
In comment 14943985 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
vs. a rookie deal for a 4th pick. Surely you understand the difference?
Yeah, the difference is that with an extension you have much greater knowledge of the individual and his ability against NFL level competition. Much less risk in extending a player on your roster than committing $32M to a prospect that's never played a down of football.
RE: RE: Finish reading the sentence next time LBH  
Eric on Li : 8/5/2020 10:13 am : link
In comment 14944146 LBH15 said:
Quote:



Eric I read the whole sentence and you went several bridges too far. His skills have been presented in exactly 3 whole starts and all at different positions than the one you said he probably is best skilled at. Nowhere near enough to make such an assessment for a coach no less a fan poster.

Look, I am sure we all we would like Gates to be a contributor and maybe even a solid guy somewhere on the line. Obviously DG sees something in him hence the nice extension. But seems like we should wait to see if hikes the football over Daniel Jones head too much before we call Center his best position.


A bridge too far by saying his skillset may be best at center vs. RT while clearly pointing out the obvious unknown that he has never in fact played center? Someone call the hyperbole police.

Surely you realize just about every scouting report entering the NFL projected him moving inside from tackle right to the point where he was labeled a guard at the combine? I wasn't making a suggestion out of thin air based on last year - just restating the conventional wisdom that generally undersized UDFA's with short arms project as interior lineman rather than tackles, and as it happens we only have 1 open interior position right now at C. Whether he can snap or handle the additional mental aspects of the center position is an unknown - as was clearly stated in the same sentence you took issue with.
Ok, so now using  
chick310 : 8/5/2020 10:46 am : link
I will notify the police to stand down. :-)

And really not unusual all for college Tackles to project to Guard in the NFL, but moving to Center is a whole different deal with several distinct skill sets. So best not to just bunch them up all up as interior lineman in this comparison.

Real simply, Gates doesn't have any live snaps at the Center position in his career to even rely upon to make the statement what he is best at. I hope he is a superstar at Tackle, Guard and Center, but at this stage would be satisfied if he can do one of them reasonably well after the coaches develop him moreso and figure out how he can be a contributor.

Oh, and don't call me Shirley.
RE: Ok, so now using may be instead of probably  
chick310 : 8/5/2020 10:47 am : link
In comment 14944215 chick310 said:
Quote:
I will notify the police to stand down. :-)

And really not unusual all for college Tackles to project to Guard in the NFL, but moving to Center is a whole different deal with several distinct skill sets. So best not to just bunch them up all up as interior lineman in this comparison.

Real simply, Gates doesn't have any live snaps at the Center position in his career to even rely upon to make the statement what he is best at. I hope he is a superstar at Tackle, Guard and Center, but at this stage would be satisfied if he can do one of them reasonably well after the coaches develop him moreso and figure out how he can be a contributor.

Oh, and don't call me Shirley.
dupe says  
YAJ2112 : 8/5/2020 10:54 am : link
what?
RE: RE: RE: Finish reading the sentence next time LBH  
LBH15 : 8/5/2020 10:57 am : link
In comment 14944193 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 14944146 LBH15 said:


Quote:





Eric I read the whole sentence and you went several bridges too far. His skills have been presented in exactly 3 whole starts and all at different positions than the one you said he probably is best skilled at. Nowhere near enough to make such an assessment for a coach no less a fan poster.

Look, I am sure we all we would like Gates to be a contributor and maybe even a solid guy somewhere on the line. Obviously DG sees something in him hence the nice extension. But seems like we should wait to see if hikes the football over Daniel Jones head too much before we call Center his best position.




A bridge too far by saying his skillset may be best at center vs. RT while clearly pointing out the obvious unknown that he has never in fact played center? Someone call the hyperbole police.

Surely you realize just about every scouting report entering the NFL projected him moving inside from tackle right to the point where he was labeled a guard at the combine? I wasn't making a suggestion out of thin air based on last year - just restating the conventional wisdom that generally undersized UDFA's with short arms project as interior lineman rather than tackles, and as it happens we only have 1 open interior position right now at C. Whether he can snap or handle the additional mental aspects of the center position is an unknown - as was clearly stated in the same sentence you took issue with.


Agree with above generally. Mostly concerned about the team trying to push square pegs in round holes versus just getting professional Center in place. Again, I think Gates might be the starting Right Tackle based upon events of the past month.

I don't disagree - I'd have Justin Britt's agent on speed dial  
Eric on Li : 8/5/2020 11:37 am : link
because it is important to put guys in positions to succeed. A good center will help the guards play better, the guards playing better helps the tackles play better, everyone playing better allows the whole offense to go better. So if there's not a competent center on the roster they need to get one. Starting Pulley should not be an option unless he found some really good PEDs this offseason.

On the flip side however we have seen both Seubert and Boothe each as individuals likely best suited to be guards, kick in to play center effectively. Brandon Linder had a similar physical profile to Gates and he moved to center in the NFL after playing a bunch of different positions at Miami. So we aren't talking about a rare feat like turning a TE into an OT or a WR into a DB. If Gates is good on the mental side I think it's likely he might have the best long term potential at C of any player on the roster currently. I don't think the same is true of him at RT (bc of Peart) though he may be the best option right now and anything is possible.

And regardless of what happens this year, his most ideal long term spot may be RG once Zeitler moves on.

Judge says they will try guys at different places and see what sticks so I guess we will all just have to wait and see what they decide to do. But Gates being perhaps the best option for both of the currently open spots is a big reason why I think this was a really smart contract. If he ends being the solution at either open starting spot it will be a very below market value.
Yeah, posted before that the starting Center  
chick310 : 8/5/2020 11:42 am : link
may not be on the roster just yet.

Not an ideal preseason to bring someone into the mix late though...pandemic constraints, limited practices and games, new offense, etc. Not sure if feasible.
RE: I don't disagree - I'd have Justin Britt's agent on speed dial  
christian : 8/5/2020 11:55 am : link
In comment 14944254 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
If he ends being the solution at either open starting spot it will be a very below market value.


Eric - this is where the details on the contract become quite important. If he earns ~5M/YR in 21/22 as a center -- it's not below market value. It's mid-market value.

If he cracks the lineup as a starting guard or tackle, that's awesome.

As I posted above -- based on current contracts (and a presumably shrinking cap) -- a 5M AAV center would slot depending on the year at 11th or 15th.

If the contract rewards him at the top end by some measure that indicates he play well, again awesome. If the contract rewards for simply playing, not awesome.

Again, as I posted above, a guy like Halopio played 95% of snaps and started 15 games -- I hope simple measures like that aren't the incentives.
that's just factually incorrect in a few ways  
Eric on Li : 8/5/2020 12:29 pm : link
#1 - his AAV isn't $5m. The max of the contract is supposedly 3 years ~10m which would be an AAV just north of $3m even with all incentives hit. I suppose the floor would be around $2m AAV if none of the incentives hit.

#2 - even aside from #1, if we were to cherry pick your $5m number instead of AAV, that would slot in as the 19th highest among all centers 1 spot behind Nick Eason and 1 spot ahead of BJ Finney (so below average). The $3m AAV is only a few spots behind that so for ranking purposes it's not all that different. $2m would take him out of the top 32 centers - so the base of the contract is as a backup.

But again, this is all willfully ignorant of the fact that his AAV cost next year was either going to be the tender at $2.1m or $3.2m - and if it was 2.1m tender he would have been a defacto FA (original rd compensation for a UDFA). Whenever the official details get published do you think his cap # pre-incentives will be pretty close to $3.2m which was his likely '21 destiny? Because I do.
AAV for centers - ( New Window )
Gates extension per Spotrac  
LBH15 : 8/5/2020 1:01 pm : link
Nick Gates signed a 2 year, $10,325,000 contract with the New York Giants, including an average annual salary of $5,162,500.

In 2020, Gates will earn a base salary of $675,000, while carrying a cap hit of $676,668.
RE: Gates extension per Spotrac  
YAJ2112 : 8/5/2020 1:21 pm : link
In comment 14944333 LBH15 said:
Quote:
Nick Gates signed a 2 year, $10,325,000 contract with the New York Giants, including an average annual salary of $5,162,500.

In 2020, Gates will earn a base salary of $675,000, while carrying a cap hit of $676,668.


They don't have the details yet and are just putting in placeholders.
...  
christian : 8/5/2020 1:33 pm : link
Eric -- the extension is beyond 2020 (21,22), and those are the years I was clearly addressing (and noted).

Presumably his 2020 compensation is his current ~675K salary + plus a portion (500K) of his new signing bonus. 2020 is a low salary now and before. All good.

Moving forward is the key issue, and where I don't believe "below market" applies, especially if the incentives are easy to earn. If the incentives are commensurate with playing well, all good too!

If he were to be paid ~5M in 2021 he would be the 16th most costly center, and in 2022 would be 12th most costly.
RE: ...  
YAJ2112 : 8/5/2020 1:37 pm : link
In comment 14944354 christian said:
Quote:
Eric -- the extension is beyond 2020 (21,22), and those are the years I was clearly addressing (and noted).

Presumably his 2020 compensation is his current ~675K salary + plus a portion (500K) of his new signing bonus. 2020 is a low salary now and before. All good.

Moving forward is the key issue, and where I don't believe "below market" applies, especially if the incentives are easy to earn. If the incentives are commensurate with playing well, all good too!

If he were to be paid ~5M in 2021 he would be the 16th most costly center, and in 2022 would be 12th most costly.


Given the 1.5 million signing bonus, his cap hits at most would be 4.6 million in 21/22 even with hitting all incentives (assuming they are all LTBE and spread evenly along with salary).
RE: RE: ...  
YAJ2112 : 8/5/2020 1:41 pm : link
In comment 14944359 YAJ2112 said:
Quote:
In comment 14944354 christian said:


Quote:


Eric -- the extension is beyond 2020 (21,22), and those are the years I was clearly addressing (and noted).

Doh, it would be 4.8 million. Forgot I should have only pulled out 500k not 1 million.

Presumably his 2020 compensation is his current ~675K salary + plus a portion (500K) of his new signing bonus. 2020 is a low salary now and before. All good.

Moving forward is the key issue, and where I don't believe "below market" applies, especially if the incentives are easy to earn. If the incentives are commensurate with playing well, all good too!

If he were to be paid ~5M in 2021 he would be the 16th most costly center, and in 2022 would be 12th most costly.



Given the 1.5 million signing bonus, his cap hits at most would be 4.6 million in 21/22 even with hitting all incentives (assuming they are all LTBE and spread evenly along with salary).
Here's what we know from the Ranaan article on pg 1 w/ some projection  
Eric on Li : 8/5/2020 1:44 pm : link
Per Ranaan (and many others):

Quote:
The deal is for two additional years and $6.8 million, and can be worth a potential $10.3 million, a source told ESPN. Gates, who has a chance to be a regular starter this season, was scheduled to make $660,000 this year. Instead, he also gets a $1.5 million signing bonus, the source said.


So here goes nothing. Start with:

$10.3m reported maximum
minus $1.5m reported new SB
=$8.8m max salaries w/ all incentives

minus $660k year 1 salary ('20 salary remaining the same per Pat T.)

= $8.14m non-gtd max salary w/ incentives in years 2 + 3 (4.57m max AAV for those 2 years including prorated SB)

Now if we want to speculate on the yet to be confirmed non-gtd base salaries in years 2+3, I'd guess it's:
$6.8m (reported new money in 2 year extension)
- $1.5m SB
= $5.3m ($2.65m AAV for those 2 seasons, which also happens to split the difference of what the original round tender and the 2nd round RFA tender would have been next year if they were the same as this year).

That's all obviously rough based off the limited info we know - but I don't think the exact details need to be confirmed when we know there's only $1.5m guaranteed and the max value is $10.3m over these 3 years (Max AAV $3.43m).
It's pretty..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/5/2020 1:49 pm : link
clear why the $5M is being used. Without exaggeration, there is no argument to stand on.
or what YAJ said  
Eric on Li : 8/5/2020 1:49 pm : link
if the 2nd and 3rd years are unbalanced there could be a single year of the deal over $5m but there is no way to stretch an AAV over $5m based on what we've seen reported so far.

The simplest read on the contract is this - 3 years, $7.5m, with $1.5m of that being SB. $2.5m AAV. With about $1m in TBD incentives per year beyond that. Slightly backloaded since they kept year 1 salary the same but how much more beyond that remains to be seen.
And let's keep in mind...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/5/2020 1:54 pm : link
even at max incentives, it is still less than $5M. And if he hits that, it is more than likely there is above average to excellent performance.

I mean speculating that the incentives are just for playing time is a whole lot of fun here, but that isn't very realistic. At least some portion (usually a significant portion) of incentives are tied to measures of good play - not just starts.

But again - without trying to speculate that the majority of the incentives MAY be just for playing, the argument falls flat.

See the trend here? The argument falls flat without wild speculation and exaggeration.
RE: It's pretty..  
Eric on Li : 8/5/2020 1:55 pm : link
In comment 14944374 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
clear why the $5M is being used. Without exaggeration, there is no argument to stand on.


yeah I mean this is 100x more clear cut than the Pulley extension, which looks Dennis Rodman controversial in comparison.

Gates gave them 1 extra year in return for a $1.5m check right now and a potentially lower salary than he'd have gotten next year. Call me crazy but in normal times where there's no uncertainty I don't think any player does that when they are 1 year from FA.
RE: or what YAJ said  
LBH15 : 8/5/2020 1:57 pm : link
In comment 14944375 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
if the 2nd and 3rd years are unbalanced there could be a single year of the deal over $5m but there is no way to stretch an AAV over $5m based on what we've seen reported so far.

The simplest read on the contract is this - 3 years, $7.5m, with $1.5m of that being SB. $2.5m AAV. With about $1m in TBD incentives per year beyond that. Slightly backloaded since they kept year 1 salary the same but how much more beyond that remains to be seen.


Got it. And if doesn't hold up this year the team is really only out the $660K salary plus the $1.5M bonus for his services.
He hasn't been out there often, but when he was he played well. I'm  
Ira : 8/5/2020 2:02 pm : link
glad we tied him up.
Incentives based on # of starts would seemingly make sense  
LBH15 : 8/5/2020 2:12 pm : link
for hopefully an up-and-coming backup OL. Are there really more complicated metrics for offensive lineman in contracts?
RE: Incentives based on # of starts would seemingly make sense  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/5/2020 2:30 pm : link
In comment 14944390 LBH15 said:
Quote:
for hopefully an up-and-coming backup OL. Are there really more complicated metrics for offensive lineman in contracts?


Some portion of the incentives will be playing-time based. For offensive linemen, there will be additional incentives that will usually include a number of starts that would mean the team made the playoffs, incentives tied to the team's overall record, and then individual awards. And these incentives don't count against the cap when the deal is signed:

Quote:
Incentives are usually designed to be classified as not likely to be earned (NLTBE), so that they will not count against the salary cap when a deal is signed. Generally, any incentives with higher thresholds than the player or team's statistical performance in the prior season qualify as NLTBE. The most frequent categories for individual achievement are playing time or based on the player's primary function (i.e., receptions or receiving yards for a wide receiver). Coupling an individual achievement with a team statistical performance also makes an incentive NLTBE. If earned, a team will incur a salary cap charge for most incentives after the playoffs end. Incentives are typically paid in February or March following the season in which they are earned.


Joel Bitonio and Andrew Whitworth had incentives based on percentage of snaps played (with a bonus at 85%), incentives for number of starts - with Whitworth having a bonus at 18 starts (needs the playoffs) and both had incentives based on record that kicked in when the team was over .500

In addition, there were incentives for being named Pro Bowl and All-Pro and for not committing penalties.
Okay but again, seemingly number of starts is going  
LBH15 : 8/5/2020 2:41 pm : link
to be the key measure. All Pro and Pro Bowl for a guy like Gates sounds nice and all but are likely unreachable stretch goals (in this contract period).

Penalties can only be measured if your starting so cuts both ways but workable as a metric.
reading that I would guess the incentives are based on % of snaps  
Eric on Li : 8/5/2020 2:45 pm : link
that would make a lot of sense. Also for context even last year, Gates played a higher % of snaps than I realized. Per PFF his 291 snaps were 27% of the 1068 snaps Will Hernandez played (and I believe he played like 99.9% of all snaps).

So "3 starts" was really just more than 1/4 of the season when you add in partial action.

75-85% would seem to be fair for both sides. If he remains in the swing role he won't come close but if he wins a starting role he will likely hit it. And if he doesn't play well enough to lock down that starting role for multiple seasons he'd return to the swing role and lower comp.
RE: Okay but again, seemingly number of starts is going  
LBH15 : 8/5/2020 2:47 pm : link
In comment 14944412 LBH15 said:
Quote:
to be the key measure. All Pro and Pro Bowl for a guy like Gates sounds nice and all but are likely unreachable stretch goals (in this contract period).

Penalties can only be measured if your starting so cuts both ways but workable as a metric.


Yes agree, should have said # of starts or # of snaps will be the likely key measure.
It will be a key measure..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/5/2020 2:48 pm : link
but reaching anywhere near the full amount will likely mean excellent performance and team success.

Cameron Erving's contract with the Cowboys has incentives:

Quote:
Erving will make $31,250 each time he’s on the active gameday roster — $500,000 in total. Speaking to his incentives, the former Chiefs starter can net $125,000 if he logs 65 percent of offensive snaps and the Cowboys qualify for the playoffs, and an additional $125,000 if he plays 80 percent of snaps and the team reaches the postseason.


So being active for all games will get him $500K, but no matter how much he plays, if the Cowboys don't make the postseason, he doesn't earn an additional $250K
From Judge's media session today  
LBH15 : 8/5/2020 2:49 pm : link
Dan Salomone
@NYGsalomone
·
6m
Coach Joe Judge is on a video conference. He said Nick Gates, who just signed a contract extension, could factor into any of the five starting OL spots. He said the coaches need to do a good job of mapping out how they split his practice reps.
RE: It will be a key measure..  
LBH15 : 8/5/2020 2:52 pm : link
In comment 14944416 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
but reaching anywhere near the full amount will likely mean excellent performance and team success.

Cameron Erving's contract with the Cowboys has incentives:



Quote:


Erving will make $31,250 each time he’s on the active gameday roster — $500,000 in total. Speaking to his incentives, the former Chiefs starter can net $125,000 if he logs 65 percent of offensive snaps and the Cowboys qualify for the playoffs, and an additional $125,000 if he plays 80 percent of snaps and the team reaches the postseason.



So being active for all games will get him $500K, but no matter how much he plays, if the Cowboys don't make the postseason, he doesn't earn an additional $250K


Well, lets see if Gates and his agent remembered what the NYG won/loss record has been for the past several years.
BJ..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/5/2020 2:55 pm : link
Finney from the Seahawks has incentives for roster bonus, starts, if the team makes the playoffs, if he makes the ProBowl, and if he's the 1st or 2nd best OL on the team (I'm sure the criteria of determining that is included in the contract details!)

The roster and start money is 60% of the incentives
RE: BJ..  
LBH15 : 8/5/2020 3:09 pm : link
In comment 14944424 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Finney from the Seahawks has incentives for roster bonus, starts, if the team makes the playoffs, if he makes the ProBowl, and if he's the 1st or 2nd best OL on the team (I'm sure the criteria of determining that is included in the contract details!)

The roster and start money is 60% of the incentives


Gates might want to go with that 1st or 2nd best OL incentive. With this line it may be a slam-dunk for him.
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 8/5/2020 5:04 pm : link
In comment 14944359 YAJ2112 said:
Quote:
In comment 14944354 christian said:


Quote:


Eric -- the extension is beyond 2020 (21,22), and those are the years I was clearly addressing (and noted).

Presumably his 2020 compensation is his current ~675K salary + plus a portion (500K) of his new signing bonus. 2020 is a low salary now and before. All good.

Moving forward is the key issue, and where I don't believe "below market" applies, especially if the incentives are easy to earn. If the incentives are commensurate with playing well, all good too!

If he were to be paid ~5M in 2021 he would be the 16th most costly center, and in 2022 would be 12th most costly.



Given the 1.5 million signing bonus, his cap hits at most would be 4.6 million in 21/22 even with hitting all incentives (assuming they are all LTBE and spread evenly along with salary).


Sorry for my Qanon level deception with the rounding there :) -- you are right it is indeed 4.6M at the high end. As of now that would still be good for 16th, and actually 11th highest paid center in 21 and 22 respectively.

My only point in all of this, is if Gates hits the top end of the incentives as a center he's being paid fairly. I hope the incentives are constructed to measure success and I hope he hits them.
How does this whopper of a thread even exist?  
djm : 8/5/2020 10:29 pm : link
..
RE: How does this whopper of a thread even exist?  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/5/2020 10:33 pm : link
In comment 14944795 djm said:
Quote:
..


Thank Captain Analytics
high risk move for the Bills  
Eric on Li : 8/6/2020 10:38 am : link
Quote:
Ian Rapoport
@RapSheet
The #Bills officially signed veteran G Brian Winters, who gets a 1-year deal worth $3M with $2M guaranteed. Not bad for this economic environment.


good thing they got the Gates deal done before Winters turned the market upside down.
RE: high risk move for the Bills  
BlueLou'sBack : 8/6/2020 11:26 am : link
In comment 14944911 Eric on Li said:
Quote:


Quote:


Ian Rapoport
@RapSheet
The #Bills officially signed veteran G Brian Winters, who gets a 1-year deal worth $3M with $2M guaranteed. Not bad for this economic environment.



good thing they got the Gates deal done before Winters turned the market upside down.
RE: RE: high risk move for the Bills  
YAJ2112 : 8/6/2020 11:35 am : link
In comment 14944948 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
In comment 14944911 Eric on Li said:


Quote:




Quote:


Ian Rapoport
@RapSheet
The #Bills officially signed veteran G Brian Winters, who gets a 1-year deal worth $3M with $2M guaranteed. Not bad for this economic environment.



good thing they got the Gates deal done before Winters turned the market upside down.



Beane did learn from Gettleman, so it makes sense he would make a similar move
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