Mike Garafolo
@MikeGarafolo
The #Giants have agreed to a two-year extension with OL Nick Gates, who started three games last year. The deal has a base value of $6.825 million and could max out at $10.325 million. A former undrafted free agent who spent his first year on IR, Gates cashes in.
A bit much...that's starter money...
Maybe?
I remember the same posts from a bunch of posters about Halapio last year.
Not saying Gates is bad, but posts like this are dumb. We as fans can never question personnel moves because we aren't coaches and don't have access to hours of film?
Quote:
the Giants front office and coaching staff after extensive film study think they know more the we do?
Maybe?
I remember the same posts from a bunch of posters about Halapio last year.
Not saying Gates is bad, but posts like this are dumb. We as fans can never question personnel moves because we aren't coaches and don't have access to hours of film?
It would take reading the post he was replying to if you were to understand his point.
Aside from that, sure fans have every right to whine, bitch, moan and complain about shit they don’t have a clue about. Teams missing on some players doesn’t change the fact that, in general, most fans are absolutely clueless morons.
I don't think Boothe is an apt comp at all. He may not have started many games, but anyone watching him in the games he came in saw the steadiness, decent feet, and good power as run blocker. He had a track record.
Gates doesn't.
Boothe had decent feet? Boothe moved as if his feet were stuck in cement. I liked Boothe but Gates is more athletic and talented. Boothe was strictly a guard because he would have been eaten alive by any pass rusher with speed. Boothe's strengths were his size and strength.
Personally, I find it weird the Giants are extending anyone before the coach gets to see them on the field.
I don’t think he’s very good, and I don’t think he’s part of the solution. I suspect he’ll be relegated to Spencer Pulley status next year, a slightly overpaid but not tragic backup.
We pretty much knew that already.
exactly (and I am not at all, per se, against a Gates signing), but the meme 'the coaching staff obviously likes him' is such empty drivel, has been said about (as you say) Halapio, Brewer, Petrus, etc.
Halapio, yes, but Brewer and Petrus never signed second contracts with the Giants (as far as I recall). Contract extensions are definitely a sign that the coaching staff likes someone. Drafting a guy is a sign that the scouting department likes someone.
Good point
Quote: I don't think Boothe is an apt comp at all. He may not have started many games, but anyone watching him in the games he came in saw the steadiness, decent feet, and good power as run blocker. He had a track record.
Gates doesn't. ///////
Boothe had decent feet? Boothe moved as if his feet were stuck in cement. I liked Boothe but Gates is more athletic and talented. Boothe was strictly a guard because he would have been eaten alive by any pass rusher with speed. Boothe's strengths were his size and strength.
i just don't see the urgency to give him a deal. like what was the rush for this? why not let him play this year and see how he does?
this extension is not pennies. same with mayo. they paid him wayyyyyyy too much money for a backup. mayo is a bottom of the roster, minimum salary guy and he's getting $3M. now they are giving gates money.
i don't get it
Of course you don’t lol
i just don't see the urgency to give him a deal. like what was the rush for this? why not let him play this year and see how he does?
this extension is not pennies. same with mayo. they paid him wayyyyyyy too much money for a backup. mayo is a bottom of the roster, minimum salary guy and he's getting $3M. now they are giving gates money.
i don't get it
What don't you get about starter/1st backup? And yes, it is pennies these days.
Jay, you're supporting my assertion that Boothe is not a good comp for Gates (to a post comparing the two). I happen to agree with your characterizations of Boothe (and Gates), and he was a 'heavy' player. I didn't say good feet. (:
I don't think he was comparing Boothe and Gates skill sets. I think Eric was just mentioning how both were little known players that nobody expected to develop into starting caliber offensive linemen.
and contrary to your analysis of whom was more impressive/productive, last year not only was Gates extremely impressive when he got to play, but in that 1 season he also made more starts (3) than Boothe did in his first 3 years with NYG (just 2). So at the early stages of each of their respective careers here I do believe they've been similarly productive, with Gates likely having been more productive just by having had more of an opportunity to play full games.
Always a guy who is going to be in your top 5 - and has deserved to play more the last couple years.
Even if he's a 6th man, he can have lots of value. Jason Garrett uses lots of 3 TE formations. We could see plenty of Gates at TE.
i just don't see the urgency to give him a deal. like what was the rush for this? why not let him play this year and see how he does?
this extension is not pennies. same with mayo. they paid him wayyyyyyy too much money for a backup. mayo is a bottom of the roster, minimum salary guy and he's getting $3M. now they are giving gates money.
i don't get it
na, just bc you dont get it doesn't mean they dont. go make a sandwich.
With an unknown cap situation going forward who is to say this is a good deal? Especially to a player who has proven nothing in live games. Let’s not pretend like the Giants dont consistently overrate their own players and also use the media as a tool to validate these views.
It’s great if that are right and he turns into a legit starter. It’s just seems like strange timing to do this now? Are other teams doing this with more bottom the roster players?
Quote:
the Giants front office and coaching staff after extensive film study think they know more the we do?
Maybe?
Not saying Gates is bad, but posts like this are dumb. We as fans can never question personnel moves because we aren't coaches and don't have access to hours of film?
I prefer to trust those that actually know what the fuck they're looking at.
With an unknown cap situation going forward who is to say this is a good deal? Especially to a player who has proven nothing in live games. Let’s not pretend like the Giants dont consistently overrate their own players and also use the media as a tool to validate these views.
It’s great if that are right and he turns into a legit starter. It’s just seems like strange timing to do this now? Are other teams doing this with more bottom the roster players?
So you think Gates is a “bottom of roster guy”? Seriously?
The Giants are slowly building a solid OL room.
Flemming is a swing Tackle.
Gates has the potential to be a swing all 5 spots
In the case of Gates and these teams, I have been less attentive to the trainwrecks on the field and he may impress, if that is the comparison being made. But in terms of skill set and style of player in the trenches, no.
With an unknown cap situation going forward who is to say this is a good deal? Especially to a player who has proven nothing in live games. Let’s not pretend like the Giants dont consistently overrate their own players and also use the media as a tool to validate these views.
It’s great if that are right and he turns into a legit starter. It’s just seems like strange timing to do this now? Are other teams doing this with more bottom the roster players?
Strange timing? IDK, seems like shortly after Solder announced he's out this year, and you've just got your first look at how little you've gotten to work with your three rookie OL that form your future (you hope) OL, and you're closer to realizing there may very well not be a 2020 CFB...
Seems like the timing isn't strange at all to lock up your 6th OL, or starting OC or RT until Peart is ready...
Doesn't seem like strange timing at all to me.
Given that improvement, Gettleman may have wanted to solidify his place before he had a chance to prove his worth in a heavily competitive camp. If Gates turns out to be far and away our best lineman out of 5, his price would’ve skyrocketed. We can’t afford another high priced Olineman with Solder still on the books. I like the move, but there is a lot we don’t know.
It's still too early to call yeah or nay on Thomas, Peart and Lemieux, but to me it has a good smell in the foreboding of it. Thomas was MY top pick at 4, and until he proves otherwise I like the roll of the dice on Peart at 99.
Again, my opinion is only half cast to this point on DG, but he seems to have a clue when drafting OL, and even just "a clue" is a helluva lot more than Jerry Reese ever had when it came to OL!
Extend Tomlinson next.
Gates Contract - ( New Window )
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moves and say where is the logic in that?
With an unknown cap situation going forward who is to say this is a good deal? Especially to a player who has proven nothing in live games. Let’s not pretend like the Giants dont consistently overrate their own players and also use the media as a tool to validate these views.
It’s great if that are right and he turns into a legit starter. It’s just seems like strange timing to do this now? Are other teams doing this with more bottom the roster players?
So you think Gates is a “bottom of roster guy”? Seriously?
Unfortunately, the bottom of the depth chart for the OL is not far from the top.
Or maybe that’s fortunate.
He was going to make the team this year regardless. The Giants have plenty of cap room so it makes sense to apply the guaranteed money on this years cap. If that's the only guaranteed money then the Giants should be able to release him in the future if they wanted with little to no dead money.
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gates has proven nothing. like legit nothing. they don't even know what position he's going play. is it C? can he even play C? is he a backup G? backup T? has he shown enough to replace zeitler? if that even the plan? he hasn't even got on the field with the new coaching staff.
i just don't see the urgency to give him a deal. like what was the rush for this? why not let him play this year and see how he does?
this extension is not pennies. same with mayo. they paid him wayyyyyyy too much money for a backup. mayo is a bottom of the roster, minimum salary guy and he's getting $3M. now they are giving gates money.
i don't get it
They don’t know what position he’s going to play or you don’t know?
NGD, Solder's "commitment" hadn't changed one bit really by his opt out. Read up more before talking nonsense. If the Giants cut Solder prior to 2021, they will have the same dead cap loss they would have had prior to his opting out.
The guaranteed part of Solder's contract HAS NOT BEEN TOLLED.
Only the non guaranteed yearly base salary was tolled by the opt out. There is no obligation to pay that base salary if they cut him.
they got 2 extra years for a $1.5m signing bonus and you think that's positive for your argument? Did you read the article you linked?
But his chances of playing at right tackle increased greatly this week when tackle Nate Solder opted out of the 2020 season because of concerns from the coronavirus. Rookie Andrew Thomas, the fourth overall pick in this year's draft, is now slated to start at left tackle.
Gates started three games last season, two at right tackle and one at guard. He graded out well. Pro Football Focus had his grade at 77.0, which would have ranked 16th among all qualifying tackles and one spot ahead of Dallas' perennial All-Pro Tyron Smith.
A $1.5m signing bonus over a 4 year contract for a potential starter has exponentially more upside than downside. And yes, a $1.5m dead cap hit in a worst case where they cut him tomorrow is as no risk as any signing gets. Complaining about this deal is akin to complaining about the brand of towel they use in the locker room.
I’m not complaining about the move just more saying that it would be nice to see more apparent positive reasons to do this.
An example like they did this because of Solder, which given the timing it would in fact indicate, you’d like to apparent reasons for why it makes sense.
Instead of
- the implication that resources are bountiful and there is room for error
- the implication that because they Giants are handing him money they know something we don’t
The Giants may have some flexibility to
cut/trade Zeitler, if Gates is the real thing
This move is made as much or more with cutting Nate Solder in 2021 as it is made with the idea of cutting Zeitler.
Saving 12 mil by cutting Zeitler, the Giants best OL over the 2019 season, doesn't seem as clever a move as cutting Solder, arguably the Giants' worst OL in 2019, and the one opting out of 2020, and saving 10 million.
Please stop suggesting cutting the team's best players to save money, when you can cut the worst player and get similar savings, maybe?
He may be the only one who knows how to block somebody in 2020 on this oline.
Flemming is on the cap this year for 3.5m and he got around 2m guaranteed. For 1 year. He is a perfectly fine depth signing, just pointing out his fmv cost and that they bought out 2 extra years of Gates' career where he could have hit FA for less guaranteed $ than a journeyman (4 years total) even if they decide to cut him tomorrow.
Toilolo got $3m guaranteed for 2 years, so he got twice as much guaranteed money in half the time and he's a very specific role player. Again, no major issue with the signing just providing some context.
Mayo is the most similar type of player because he's young and flashed enough talent that it wouldn't be shocking for him to win a starting job at some point. He also got more than twice as much money guaranteed at signing ($3.5m) and he's only extended for 2 more years.
I completely agree in categorizing all 4 of them as depth players and believe in the value of players like that vs. praying for late round picks and UDFA's to step up every year. In the big picture as mentioned it's a similar positive as it was having players like Kevin Boothe as the 6th OL ready to step in when necessary in the past. But beyond the luxury of depth and looking at possible upside, among those players Gates now has easily the best chance of becoming a starter between his versatility and Solder opting out. In his few starts last year he displayed intriguing upside as well. So to get him for 4 years at such a low cost is a no risk move with a lot of potential upside.
With the uncertainty of the times I suspect that $1.5m check held extra weight in securing his family the next few years than it may have in normal times.
Where are you seeing a $5m AAV? The article above said 4 years worth up to a max of 10m overall if he hits all incentives. I assume that mean the AAV is likely somewhere between $1-2m before incentives.
Gates was going into the final year of the 3 year, 1.7M deal he signed in 2018. I’m inferring he is now under contract for 20, 21, 22.
2020 - 500K bonus, 660K salary
2021 - 500 K bonus, up to ~ 4.4M
2022 - 500K bonus, up to ~4.4M
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The deal is for two additional years and $6.8 million, and can be worth a potential $10.3 million, a source told ESPN. Gates, who has a chance to be a regular starter this season, was scheduled to make $660,000 this year. Instead, he also gets a $1.5 million signing bonus, the source said.
Gates was going into the final year of the 3 year, 1.7M deal he signed in 2018. I’m inferring he is now under contract for 20, 21, 22.
2020 - 500K bonus, 660K salary
2021 - 500 K bonus, up to ~ 4.4M
2022 - 500K bonus, up to ~4.4M
Up to 4.4M, while maybe eventually accurate is incredibly disingenuous unless you know what the incentives are. Has anyone shared that info yet? I’d be curious to know what they are. There could be incentives in there that would make that 4.4M seem like a bargain if he achieves them. I don’t think any of us have enough information to be freaking out about this yet
Quote:
The deal is for two additional years and $6.8 million, and can be worth a potential $10.3 million, a source told ESPN. Gates, who has a chance to be a regular starter this season, was scheduled to make $660,000 this year. Instead, he also gets a $1.5 million signing bonus, the source said.
Gates was going into the final year of the 3 year, 1.7M deal he signed in 2018. I’m inferring he is now under contract for 20, 21, 22.
2020 - 500K bonus, 660K salary
2021 - 500 K bonus, up to ~ 4.4M
2022 - 500K bonus, up to ~4.4M
Up to 4.4M, while maybe eventually accurate is incredibly disingenuous unless you know what the incentives are. Has anyone shared that info yet? I’d be curious to know what they are. There could be incentives in there that would make that 4.4M seem like a bargain if he achieves them. I don’t think any of us have enough information to be freaking out about this yet
It’s also definitely worth it to question the timing. Why not see if there is a season? Understand the cap implications better before doing this? It seemed like Solder opted out and that was the catalyst for this. Which really doesn’t make any sense because Solder opting out increased the relative cost of cutting him next season.
Again there is this characterization that people that point out potential issues are nit picking. When some are saying something is a zero risk move or there isn’t anything you could possibly see wrong with something. Then yes, people are needed to balance out the conversation.
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