Brandon Nimmo – CF
Jeff McNeil – 3B
Pete Alonso – 1B
Michael Conforto – RF
Robinson Canó – 2B
J.D. Davis – DH
Dominic Smith – LF
Amed Rosario – SS
Tomas Nido – C
Braves Lineup
Ronald Acuña Jr. – CF
Dansby Swanson – SS
Freddie Freeman – 1B
Marcell Ozuna – DH
Travis d’Arnaud – C
Johan Camargo – 3B
Adam Duvall – RF
Austin Riley – LF
Adeiny Hechavarría – 2B
AnthonyDiComo
Reliever Jared Hughes, who might challenge Brandon Nimmo for the title of baseball's most gregarious man, on why he signed with the Mets: "I want to win."
the Cano/Diaz deal only looks worse and worse.
the Stroman deal only looks worse and worse.
the Lowrie signing obviously only looks worse and worse and worse.
the Ramos signing is aging like milk out of the fridge.
I don't think Humphreys is much to worry about dealing but this is a strange move.
I actually like Rojas so far but I think his entire decision making re: the manager search was flawed.
a pitcher, for a backup OF who can’t hit a lick. Seems like GMs and agents around MLB are lining up to deal with our GM. Great use of the team’s money this offseason on all of those arms getting shelled out there.
with the exception of 2012+2015 their track record over the last 10 years is as good as any team in baseball.
'10 - Harvey / Degrom
'11 - Nimmo / Fulmer / Lugo
'13 - Dom Smith / McNeil
'14 - Conforto
'16 - Alonso
'17 - Peterson (obviously not proven yet but he's the only player to reach so far)
IFA's have been great too. Rosario ('12), Gimenez ('15), plus Mauricio ('18) and Alvarez ('19) may be the top 2 prospects in the system right now.
Retreads, reclamation projects, has-beens and never-beens are
Agreed - this is exactly the right move to rebuild his confidence. I'd probably pull him but he only threw 10 pitches, and in the future once he's going good I'd let him start the next inning if he's going good.
How the fuck do you bring a rookie manager here to manage this team when
Joe. Buck. Dusty are all available
Goodby Brodie
$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$
It's always about the money - the less they can spend, the better. Which is why they always suck.
As for the manager - there's plenty of people who don't think it matters what manager you have in the dugout because it won't translate to wins. The funny thing is - most of those same people also sang the praises of Joe Torre during his tenure as the Yankees skipper. Can't have it both ways.
I'll just say this - the Mets always seem to have promising players and consistently get THE LEAST out of them. Tell me now that coaching/managing doesn't really matter.
rookie of the year and two time consecutive Cy young winner (who was also a rookie of the year winner).
I don't think they have a problem getting production from their players. Just scroll up to Eric's post showing the last few drafts.
but they do struggle as an organization (ownership group) pulling the trigger and going the extra mile from a payroll standpoint.
I agree that managers matter, but I also agree with the rule of thumb it's probably a 5-game swing at best, but when people say that it's in a vacuum, and 5-games can often be the difference between playoffs or not.
the mets suck on the field because the wilpons suck as owners
it's really that simple. The few years they won it was in spite of the wilpons, not in any way because of them - they are the Indians in Major League. The fish rots from the head down.
There is a reason under their ownership we've had the Kazmir and the Diaz/Cano trades, each perpetrated by a first time GM in their first year. Had they not had a strong and respected figure like Sandy in between you can bet many of the names on that draft list would not still be here. Or even selected in the first place (our drafts in the first half of the Wilpon years prior to Sandy were probably the worst in MLB 2000-2009).
And there's also a reason why they've mostly hired the cheapest managers in the game. They don't value experience or competence they value puppets and winning the back pages. And while the broken clock is right twice a decade the other 80% of the time they get what they pay for in terms of results. And this is not a shot at Rojas - I like him so far and he's in an impossible situation to evaluate a first time manager fairly. He's just not the guy who gets that job if this is a seriously contending team. They would have hired someone like Dusty like Houston.
rookie of the year and two time consecutive Cy young winner (who was also a rookie of the year winner).
I don't think they have a problem getting production from their players. Just scroll up to Eric's post showing the last few drafts.
but they do struggle as an organization (ownership group) pulling the trigger and going the extra mile from a payroll standpoint.
I agree that managers matter, but I also agree with the rule of thumb it's probably a 5-game swing at best, but when people say that it's in a vacuum, and 5-games can often be the difference between playoffs or not.
Well, agree to disagree on this one. Rookie of the Year b/c he broke the rookie HR record in a year with a juiced ball and then DeGrom - who's always been a beast. But besides, this is hardly an uncommon conversation when it comes to the Mets. This has been talked about time and time again. And while you can point out a couple of promising players - the success of the team is the sum of their parts. I'm aware that I'm likely exaggerating the issue but it's an issue we've dealt with for years, nonetheless.
Also, I'm not sure where this "rule of thumb" came from with the arbitrary 5 game swing for good/bad managers. Maybe there is some statistics behind that number that I'm not sure about but I don't really subscribe to the "5 game swing" rule. It's a culmination of events over the course of a 162 game season. And I feel that a bad manager can really tank a team way more than a good manager can add wins. I'm just looking for a good manager to get normal effort/production from their players (at minimum) while others excel. Is that 5 more wins? Maybe. But the bang for your buck is even getting the team to be in a position to add those 5 wins. Bad managers that the Mets seem to excel in signing are a part of the problem.
how many games does a completely dysfunctional organization swing?
inexperienced managers are a symptom of the disease.
weird injury situations and mis-diagnosis are a symptom.
hostility between ownership and players/former players/agents is a symptom.
preferential treatment to players who are friends with the owner (reyes) is a symptom.
impatience is a symptom.
the madoff mess is a symptom.
treating fans like crap is a symptom.
public bickering with potential partners/co-owners is a symptom.
The disease is what binds all of those things together - the current owners.
are not always a bad thing and there is always revisionist history.
When Callaway was hired this place was giddy. All almost anyone could talk about was how for once the Mets didn't do the Mets thing and hire a retread and they went with the fresh perspective. And a phenom pitching coach was perfect for the Mets.
things obviously soured quickly when it was about he was out of his depth, but he was the anti Terry Collins or Art Howe.
Collins, the predictable veteran had flaws like sticking with "his guys" far too much and too long, but he was hardly inexperienced.
And I will also add that when BVW was hired - not the same unanimous glee, but given the other names they were considering, a lot of relief it wasn't some guy who retired because he no longer had the passion for being a GM.
are not always a bad thing and there is always revisionist history.
When Callaway was hired this place was giddy. All almost anyone could talk about was how for once the Mets didn't do the Mets thing and hire a retread and they went with the fresh perspective. And a phenom pitching coach was perfect for the Mets.
things obviously soured quickly when it was about he was out of his depth, but he was the anti Terry Collins or Art Howe.
Collins, the predictable veteran had flaws like sticking with "his guys" far too much and too long, but he was hardly inexperienced.
And I will also add that when BVW was hired - not the same unanimous glee, but given the other names they were considering, a lot of relief it wasn't some guy who retired because he no longer had the passion for being a GM.
this is somewhat true but also lacking context. First off all of the searches above lacked for qualified candidates. In each instance they went cheap and had a number of people decline to even be interviewed. So who the fans preferred among the final candidates wasn't always reflective of who they actually preferred, just making the best of a bad situation.
Ex. when they hired Callaway, Alex Cora turned them down and the remaining candidates were Kevin Long, Joe McEwing, and Manny Acta. A hitting coach and 2 third base coaches, all with previous ties to the org. So in theory a young well regarded pitching coach from a winning organization without ties to the organization still seems like by far the best choice even though that didn't turn out to be the case. Not sure how fans were supposed to read that Callaway was both a liar and incompetent from afar.
And when they hired BVW that was against the grain. I think the vast majority preferred Chaim Bloom among the 3 final candidates, though BVW was definitely less disliked than Melvin. I don't think anyone took BVW's candidacy seriously until he was named GM and many thought they chose the wrong guy (the mild mannered Ken Rosenthal even wrote a pretty lengthy article about how this was a typical Mets are smarter than everyone else move). BVW's opening press conference went well but I think most understood that his previous job was to be a salesman and that was his bread and butter.
And in this most recent managerial search I think Girardi was probably the chalk pick among fans. So if the last 2 major hirings were the fan-preferred Bloom and Girardi I think the org would be in a much better place.
that would indicate the Wilpons have a history of hiring inexperienced managers.
Some of this pre-dates Madoff scandal becoming public but the Mets have hired:
Bobby V
Art Howe
Willie Randolph (1st time manager, was universally applauded)
Jerry Manuel
Terry Collins
Micky Callaway (1st time manager, was almost universally applauded at the time)
Carlos Beltran (and this is a misstep by ownership - he should still be the manager - and he was also a 1st time manager)
Luis Rojas (at that point there wasn't a ton of options)
it seems like the Mets are pretty open with who they hire as manager.
Anyway, I'm not defending the Wilpons, they're horrible owners, but I'm also not piling on a list of things that probably aren't terrible by them or include revisionist history.
I would be nice to have some promising news. I am not saying a sale will miraculously fix the current mess but new leadership from the top would be welcoming.
that would indicate the Wilpons have a history of hiring inexperienced managers.
Some of this pre-dates Madoff scandal becoming public but the Mets have hired:
Bobby V
Art Howe
Willie Randolph (1st time manager, was universally applauded)
Jerry Manuel
Terry Collins
Micky Callaway (1st time manager, was almost universally applauded at the time)
Carlos Beltran (and this is a misstep by ownership - he should still be the manager - and he was also a 1st time manager)
Luis Rojas (at that point there wasn't a ton of options)
it seems like the Mets are pretty open with who they hire as manager.
Anyway, I'm not defending the Wilpons, they're horrible owners, but I'm also not piling on a list of things that probably aren't terrible by them or include revisionist history.
I mentioned inexperienced managers in the context of the posts above mine about Rojas because I think it's unfair to pin blame on him when clearly he is a rookie stepping into a very non ideal situation. If you read my 8:08 post above that one I mentioned the true connective tissue of all the managers the Wilpons hired which is that they were often paid among the lowest salaries in the game.
Bobby V was promoted in season from Norfolk to the Mets in 1996 and I believe after he made the playoffs a few times they gave him a decent sized extension but that was when Doubleday was the majority owner and chairman - so that's not a decision entirely reflective of the Wilpons.
I would be nice to have some promising news. I am not saying a sale will miraculously fix the current mess but new leadership from the top would be welcoming.
I think no news is good news that trends in the direction of Cohen getting the team.
won't be back next year. He's been a disaster outside of the draft (and I question how much he impacts that) vs. guys like Tanous and Tramuta. His name wasn't mentioned once mentioned on the Law podcast with Tramuta. He's been an awful disaster right down to the horrendous handling of PR (a Mets staple!). See ya dude.
won't be back next year. He's been a disaster outside of the draft (and I question how much he impacts that) vs. guys like Tanous and Tramuta. His name wasn't mentioned once mentioned on the Law podcast with Tramuta. He's been an awful disaster right down to the horrendous handling of PR (a Mets staple!). See ya dude.
So you're saying the Wilpons weren't smarter than the rest of baseball?
Fred Wilpon and Nelson Doubleday became 50/50 owners.
Fred has been the team CEO and President since 1980 - he was replaced as President by Saul Katz in 2002 when they bought the 50% of the team that Doubleday still had.
People attribute certain things to Doubleday, but really don't have any credible source. Or if you do, please share it.
Fred Wilpon and Nelson Doubleday became 50/50 owners.
Fred has been the team CEO and President since 1980 - he was replaced as President by Saul Katz in 2002 when they bought the 50% of the team that Doubleday still had.
People attribute certain things to Doubleday, but really don't have any credible source. Or if you do, please share it.
Doubleday had more money than the Wilpons by a healthy margin for most of that time period so the bigger spending was generally attributed to him. It's not exactly a crazy leap to make. Francesa and Russo often credited Doubleday as the one who got Piazza resigned and they had direct access to the organization so not sure how much more credible a media source can be but I've never heard anything direct from people who were with the team.
Fred Wilpon and Nelson Doubleday became 50/50 owners.
Fred has been the team CEO and President since 1980 - he was replaced as President by Saul Katz in 2002 when they bought the 50% of the team that Doubleday still had.
People attribute certain things to Doubleday, but really don't have any credible source. Or if you do, please share it.
Doubleday had more money than the Wilpons by a healthy margin for most of that time period so the bigger spending was generally attributed to him. It's not exactly a crazy leap to make. Francesa and Russo often credited Doubleday as the one who got Piazza resigned and they had direct access to the organization so not sure how much more credible a media source can be but I've never heard anything direct from people who were with the team.
so you've gone from hiring managers to paying free agents.
I'm specifically commenting on Bobby V hire that you somehow gave credit to Doubleday for when Fred was team President and CEO.
spending money is spending money whether it's via FA or staff
this conversation is all over the map and you keep trying to pick apart semantics so let me try to simplify - we have almost 20 years of Wilpon majority ownership that are a lot easier to analyze without guessing who was writing the checks.
2002-2009 they spent money (top 5ish payroll pre-Madoff)
2010-2020 they stopped spending money (league avg. or lower payroll post-Madoff)
With the exception of the years Sandy was in charge, which is firmly attributed to MLB forcing him on the Wilpons, both pre and post THE WILPONS organization led by Jeff made crazy decisions that led to the phrase "only the mets". Kazmir trade, Cano trade, 3 headed GM, hiring an agent as GM, and too many WTF PR stories to count like Bernazard and Adam Rubin. And if you want some directly sourced non-revisionist history - these crazy shenanigans were prophesied in 2003 by their former partner Nelson Doubleday.
Quote:
In 2003, the team's previous partner, Nelson Doubleday, Jr., told The Star-Ledger: "Mr. Jeff Wilpon has decided that he's going to learn how to run a baseball team and take over at the end of the year… Run for the hills, boys. I think probably all those baseball people will bail... Jeff sits there by himself like he's King Tut waiting for his camel."[11]
Also I generally think its lame to repost but here's the BVW hire thread since you think skepticism of him was revisionist history too, this clearly shows that many fans (and 1 of the most respected and well sourced writers in all sports Ken Rosenthal) were at the very least skeptical of his hire in large part because of the Wilpons track record of unconventional and generally poor decision making.
I find it bizarre to act like this is a fanbase that doesn't have a right to criticize failed owners because at times they had mixed opinions or were willing to give someone like BVW a chance despite skepticism. There was a honeymoon period for BVW after his first press conference where there was optimism around his FO hires, right up until the Cano trade went down, which I would consider to be the exact kind of "rookie gm and former agent wildly overpays for his former geriatric client in a positive cash flow move as jeff wilpon tells him his first trade should be a big one" move many feared when the Wilpons made the surprising move to hire him. NFT: The Mets and Brodie Van Wagenen have agreed to terms - ( New Window )
said Mets fans shouldn't criticize the Wilpons. In fact in every post I make I manage to say how shitty they are as owners.
My point has been they are so bad with stuff they actually do there is no need to shit on them for stuff they don't do (like hiring exclusively inexperienced managers)
The whole world knows post Madoff the Mets spending habits have changed. And almost universally Mets fans are looking forward to an ownership change.
said Mets fans shouldn't criticize the Wilpons. In fact in every post I make I manage to say how shitty they are as owners.
My point has been they are so bad with stuff they actually do there is no need to shit on them for stuff they don't do (like hiring exclusively inexperienced managers)
The whole world knows post Madoff the Mets spending habits have changed. And almost universally Mets fans are looking forward to an ownership change.
again - I did not say they exclusively hire inexperienced managers. Unless you are quoting someone else you continue twisting my comment that hiring an inexperienced manager is a symptom of bad owners into a larger point I wasn't making.
and again as I explained above, the larger point I made about their managerial hiring practices just a few posts earlier than the post about inexperienced managers was that they always hired cheap managers - which i'm quite certain is true. This past hiring process that resulted in 2 inexperienced managers getting hired also twice bypassed more expensive experienced managers (Girardi and Dusty) who seemingly would have been the better direction to go for a team trying to compete. That is why hiring an inexperienced manager in this case was a symptom of bad ownership.
context and we don't need to look too far for a post that's more descriptive in my view of the Wilpon's managerial hiring practices as a means of clarifying the sentence in question. I'm not accusing you of anything shady or intentional, just trying to clarify what I wrote. This was literally the previous post to the one you responded to and then subsequently added the word "exclusively" into.
And there's also a reason why they've mostly hired the cheapest managers in the game. They don't value experience or competence they value puppets and winning the back pages. And while the broken clock is right twice a decade the other 80% of the time they get what they pay for in terms of results. And this is not a shot at Rojas - I like him so far and he's in an impossible situation to evaluate a first time manager fairly. He's just not the guy who gets that job if this is a seriously contending team. They would have hired someone like Dusty like Houston.
...how many games does a completely dysfunctional organization swing?
Eric on Li : 8/2/2020 8:22 pm : link : reply
inexperienced managers are a symptom of the disease..... ...
Yankees hire Aaron Boone (first time manager) and in some way that's not a symptom of a disease, Red Sox hire Alex Cora and that wasn't a symptom of disease, but Callaway is? The payroll probably has more to do with W/L record then the experience of the manager (to an extent) and really isn't a symptom of a disease.
My point was the Mets have hired a mix of experienced managers and first time managers, etc. so cherry picking the guys who don't work out like Callaway isn't necessary to demonstrate the Wilpons failures.
Of your list of issues with the Wilpons that is the main one I felt like is just piling on.
And if you're being honest you will separate the pre-madoff decisions and post-madoff - we all know post-madoff things are different.
with managers they went cheap both pre and post madoff
Randolph, Manuel, Callaway, and Collins (and presumably Beltran/Rojas) were all among the lowest paid in baseball. Art Howe was higher paid which is why Oakland proactively sold us that lemon in the first place and if you want to add in Valentine go ahead but he was likely only paid well after winning, not when he was promoted from Norfolk.
and re: symptoms a headache can just be a headache cured in 15 minutes with an advil.
or a headache can be an indicator of a malignant brain tumor, diagnosed in combination with other tests and symptoms.
The ownerships of the Yankees, Red Sox, and Mets can exhibit the exact symptom, with very different underlying causes.
My posts were both quite clear that the Wilpons are the malignant tumor in this analogy with the entire list of symptoms in combination being what leads to the diagnosis. Odd you mention cherry picking because that's how I view ignoring the full context of those posts and in part distorting the fragment you pulled out ("exclusively"). If you disagree with the Wilpons being a malignant ownership over the past 20 years go ahead but no need to misrepresent what I said to do so.
Inexperienced managers ARE NOT a symptom of anything. Some work out some don't.
If you want to move the goal posts and say inexpensive managers are a symptom of a disease, go ahead but it's not what you said and it's not what I disagreed with.
I have not one time defended or said anything positive about the Wilpons. So if anyone is misrepresenting what someone else said it's you.
Inexperienced managers ARE NOT a symptom of anything. Some work out some don't.
If you want to move the goal posts and say inexpensive managers are a symptom of a disease, go ahead but it's not what you said and it's not what I disagreed with.
I have not one time defended or said anything positive about the Wilpons. So if anyone is misrepresenting what someone else said it's you.
Inexperience is a common symptom for the Wilpons because it is cheaper than the alternative and they look for 'yes men' as opposed to managers or GM's who won't let them interfere. There's a reason Mickey Callaway was paid less than Terry Collins - as any of their 4 finalists for the job that year would have been. Beltran/Rojas were paid less than Girardi and likely Dusty Baker and BVW specifically cited wanting a personality that was less confrontational. Nobody questions the Yankees or Red Sox desire to win or willingness to spend money in every aspect of how they operate so there's totally different context with them in any move they make.
We are beyond the point of semantics and parody here but it is black and white that you referenced something I specifically did not say (like hiring exclusively inexperienced managers). I never said they did, same as I never represented you to have made any defense of the Wilpons. I did not type words saying either of those things into the internets.
Mets Lineup
Brandon Nimmo – CF
Jeff McNeil – 3B
Pete Alonso – 1B
Michael Conforto – RF
Robinson Canó – 2B
J.D. Davis – DH
Dominic Smith – LF
Amed Rosario – SS
Tomas Nido – C
Braves Lineup
Ronald Acuña Jr. – CF
Dansby Swanson – SS
Freddie Freeman – 1B
Marcell Ozuna – DH
Travis d’Arnaud – C
Johan Camargo – 3B
Adam Duvall – RF
Austin Riley – LF
Adeiny Hechavarría – 2B
David Petson VS Kyle Wright
Mets trade Humphries for Billy Hamilton (awful move unless Humphries was already getting claimed)
He has recorded multiple hits in four of those five games.
Canó is one of 17 players w/ at least 4 multi-hit games this season. #Mets
Reliever Jared Hughes, who might challenge Brandon Nimmo for the title of baseball's most gregarious man, on why he signed with the Mets: "I want to win."
(sarcasm off...)
the Stroman deal only looks worse and worse.
the Lowrie signing obviously only looks worse and worse and worse.
the Ramos signing is aging like milk out of the fridge.
I don't think Humphreys is much to worry about dealing but this is a strange move.
I actually like Rojas so far but I think his entire decision making re: the manager search was flawed.
So yea, I hope the new owner starts fresh.
Hopefully Cohen cleans house in the front office.
'10 - Harvey / Degrom
'11 - Nimmo / Fulmer / Lugo
'13 - Dom Smith / McNeil
'14 - Conforto
'16 - Alonso
'17 - Peterson (obviously not proven yet but he's the only player to reach so far)
IFA's have been great too. Rosario ('12), Gimenez ('15), plus Mauricio ('18) and Alvarez ('19) may be the top 2 prospects in the system right now.
Fun times.
Link - ( New Window )
Thanks for the memories Yo. The W on opening day was nice.
Where did you see he is opting out?
Quote:
lol. Oh well. Come on down Dom.
Where did you see he is opting out?
Its all over Twitter
Rich MacLeod
@richmacleod
·
23m
Hearing that Yoenis Céspedes opted out of the 2020 MLB season last night, explaining his “absence” today.
Staring down at 3-7.
Yikes.
Whenever Cespedes plays JD or Dom sits. I’d rather have them in there
Agreed - this is exactly the right move to rebuild his confidence. I'd probably pull him but he only threw 10 pitches, and in the future once he's going good I'd let him start the next inning if he's going good.
Alonso takes a first pitch hanging slider over the middle of the plate and then swings 3-1 at a pitch low and outside
I thought they'd be better than this.
Joe. Buck. Dusty are all available
Goodby Brodie
Joe. Buck. Dusty are all available
Goodby Brodie
$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$
It's always about the money - the less they can spend, the better. Which is why they always suck.
As for the manager - there's plenty of people who don't think it matters what manager you have in the dugout because it won't translate to wins. The funny thing is - most of those same people also sang the praises of Joe Torre during his tenure as the Yankees skipper. Can't have it both ways.
I'll just say this - the Mets always seem to have promising players and consistently get THE LEAST out of them. Tell me now that coaching/managing doesn't really matter.
I don't think they have a problem getting production from their players. Just scroll up to Eric's post showing the last few drafts.
but they do struggle as an organization (ownership group) pulling the trigger and going the extra mile from a payroll standpoint.
I agree that managers matter, but I also agree with the rule of thumb it's probably a 5-game swing at best, but when people say that it's in a vacuum, and 5-games can often be the difference between playoffs or not.
There is a reason under their ownership we've had the Kazmir and the Diaz/Cano trades, each perpetrated by a first time GM in their first year. Had they not had a strong and respected figure like Sandy in between you can bet many of the names on that draft list would not still be here. Or even selected in the first place (our drafts in the first half of the Wilpon years prior to Sandy were probably the worst in MLB 2000-2009).
And there's also a reason why they've mostly hired the cheapest managers in the game. They don't value experience or competence they value puppets and winning the back pages. And while the broken clock is right twice a decade the other 80% of the time they get what they pay for in terms of results. And this is not a shot at Rojas - I like him so far and he's in an impossible situation to evaluate a first time manager fairly. He's just not the guy who gets that job if this is a seriously contending team. They would have hired someone like Dusty like Houston.
I don't think they have a problem getting production from their players. Just scroll up to Eric's post showing the last few drafts.
but they do struggle as an organization (ownership group) pulling the trigger and going the extra mile from a payroll standpoint.
I agree that managers matter, but I also agree with the rule of thumb it's probably a 5-game swing at best, but when people say that it's in a vacuum, and 5-games can often be the difference between playoffs or not.
Well, agree to disagree on this one. Rookie of the Year b/c he broke the rookie HR record in a year with a juiced ball and then DeGrom - who's always been a beast. But besides, this is hardly an uncommon conversation when it comes to the Mets. This has been talked about time and time again. And while you can point out a couple of promising players - the success of the team is the sum of their parts. I'm aware that I'm likely exaggerating the issue but it's an issue we've dealt with for years, nonetheless.
Also, I'm not sure where this "rule of thumb" came from with the arbitrary 5 game swing for good/bad managers. Maybe there is some statistics behind that number that I'm not sure about but I don't really subscribe to the "5 game swing" rule. It's a culmination of events over the course of a 162 game season. And I feel that a bad manager can really tank a team way more than a good manager can add wins. I'm just looking for a good manager to get normal effort/production from their players (at minimum) while others excel. Is that 5 more wins? Maybe. But the bang for your buck is even getting the team to be in a position to add those 5 wins. Bad managers that the Mets seem to excel in signing are a part of the problem.
weird injury situations and mis-diagnosis are a symptom.
hostility between ownership and players/former players/agents is a symptom.
preferential treatment to players who are friends with the owner (reyes) is a symptom.
impatience is a symptom.
the madoff mess is a symptom.
treating fans like crap is a symptom.
public bickering with potential partners/co-owners is a symptom.
The disease is what binds all of those things together - the current owners.
Whenever Cespedes plays JD or Dom sits. I’d rather have them in there
he might just retire
When Callaway was hired this place was giddy. All almost anyone could talk about was how for once the Mets didn't do the Mets thing and hire a retread and they went with the fresh perspective. And a phenom pitching coach was perfect for the Mets.
things obviously soured quickly when it was about he was out of his depth, but he was the anti Terry Collins or Art Howe.
Collins, the predictable veteran had flaws like sticking with "his guys" far too much and too long, but he was hardly inexperienced.
And I will also add that when BVW was hired - not the same unanimous glee, but given the other names they were considering, a lot of relief it wasn't some guy who retired because he no longer had the passion for being a GM.
When Callaway was hired this place was giddy. All almost anyone could talk about was how for once the Mets didn't do the Mets thing and hire a retread and they went with the fresh perspective. And a phenom pitching coach was perfect for the Mets.
things obviously soured quickly when it was about he was out of his depth, but he was the anti Terry Collins or Art Howe.
Collins, the predictable veteran had flaws like sticking with "his guys" far too much and too long, but he was hardly inexperienced.
And I will also add that when BVW was hired - not the same unanimous glee, but given the other names they were considering, a lot of relief it wasn't some guy who retired because he no longer had the passion for being a GM.
this is somewhat true but also lacking context. First off all of the searches above lacked for qualified candidates. In each instance they went cheap and had a number of people decline to even be interviewed. So who the fans preferred among the final candidates wasn't always reflective of who they actually preferred, just making the best of a bad situation.
Ex. when they hired Callaway, Alex Cora turned them down and the remaining candidates were Kevin Long, Joe McEwing, and Manny Acta. A hitting coach and 2 third base coaches, all with previous ties to the org. So in theory a young well regarded pitching coach from a winning organization without ties to the organization still seems like by far the best choice even though that didn't turn out to be the case. Not sure how fans were supposed to read that Callaway was both a liar and incompetent from afar.
And when they hired BVW that was against the grain. I think the vast majority preferred Chaim Bloom among the 3 final candidates, though BVW was definitely less disliked than Melvin. I don't think anyone took BVW's candidacy seriously until he was named GM and many thought they chose the wrong guy (the mild mannered Ken Rosenthal even wrote a pretty lengthy article about how this was a typical Mets are smarter than everyone else move). BVW's opening press conference went well but I think most understood that his previous job was to be a salesman and that was his bread and butter.
And in this most recent managerial search I think Girardi was probably the chalk pick among fans. So if the last 2 major hirings were the fan-preferred Bloom and Girardi I think the org would be in a much better place.
Some of this pre-dates Madoff scandal becoming public but the Mets have hired:
Bobby V
Art Howe
Willie Randolph (1st time manager, was universally applauded)
Jerry Manuel
Terry Collins
Micky Callaway (1st time manager, was almost universally applauded at the time)
Carlos Beltran (and this is a misstep by ownership - he should still be the manager - and he was also a 1st time manager)
Luis Rojas (at that point there wasn't a ton of options)
it seems like the Mets are pretty open with who they hire as manager.
Anyway, I'm not defending the Wilpons, they're horrible owners, but I'm also not piling on a list of things that probably aren't terrible by them or include revisionist history.
I can't find anything on the news sites lately.
I would be nice to have some promising news. I am not saying a sale will miraculously fix the current mess but new leadership from the top would be welcoming.
Some of this pre-dates Madoff scandal becoming public but the Mets have hired:
Bobby V
Art Howe
Willie Randolph (1st time manager, was universally applauded)
Jerry Manuel
Terry Collins
Micky Callaway (1st time manager, was almost universally applauded at the time)
Carlos Beltran (and this is a misstep by ownership - he should still be the manager - and he was also a 1st time manager)
Luis Rojas (at that point there wasn't a ton of options)
it seems like the Mets are pretty open with who they hire as manager.
Anyway, I'm not defending the Wilpons, they're horrible owners, but I'm also not piling on a list of things that probably aren't terrible by them or include revisionist history.
I mentioned inexperienced managers in the context of the posts above mine about Rojas because I think it's unfair to pin blame on him when clearly he is a rookie stepping into a very non ideal situation. If you read my 8:08 post above that one I mentioned the true connective tissue of all the managers the Wilpons hired which is that they were often paid among the lowest salaries in the game.
Bobby V was promoted in season from Norfolk to the Mets in 1996 and I believe after he made the playoffs a few times they gave him a decent sized extension but that was when Doubleday was the majority owner and chairman - so that's not a decision entirely reflective of the Wilpons.
I can't find anything on the news sites lately.
I would be nice to have some promising news. I am not saying a sale will miraculously fix the current mess but new leadership from the top would be welcoming.
I think no news is good news that trends in the direction of Cohen getting the team.
So you're saying the Wilpons weren't smarter than the rest of baseball?
Link - ( New Window )
Fred has been the team CEO and President since 1980 - he was replaced as President by Saul Katz in 2002 when they bought the 50% of the team that Doubleday still had.
People attribute certain things to Doubleday, but really don't have any credible source. Or if you do, please share it.
Fred has been the team CEO and President since 1980 - he was replaced as President by Saul Katz in 2002 when they bought the 50% of the team that Doubleday still had.
People attribute certain things to Doubleday, but really don't have any credible source. Or if you do, please share it.
Doubleday had more money than the Wilpons by a healthy margin for most of that time period so the bigger spending was generally attributed to him. It's not exactly a crazy leap to make. Francesa and Russo often credited Doubleday as the one who got Piazza resigned and they had direct access to the organization so not sure how much more credible a media source can be but I've never heard anything direct from people who were with the team.
We were right - he was a good get for Ike!
Quote:
Fred Wilpon and Nelson Doubleday became 50/50 owners.
Fred has been the team CEO and President since 1980 - he was replaced as President by Saul Katz in 2002 when they bought the 50% of the team that Doubleday still had.
People attribute certain things to Doubleday, but really don't have any credible source. Or if you do, please share it.
Doubleday had more money than the Wilpons by a healthy margin for most of that time period so the bigger spending was generally attributed to him. It's not exactly a crazy leap to make. Francesa and Russo often credited Doubleday as the one who got Piazza resigned and they had direct access to the organization so not sure how much more credible a media source can be but I've never heard anything direct from people who were with the team.
so you've gone from hiring managers to paying free agents.
I'm specifically commenting on Bobby V hire that you somehow gave credit to Doubleday for when Fred was team President and CEO.
2002-2009 they spent money (top 5ish payroll pre-Madoff)
2010-2020 they stopped spending money (league avg. or lower payroll post-Madoff)
With the exception of the years Sandy was in charge, which is firmly attributed to MLB forcing him on the Wilpons, both pre and post THE WILPONS organization led by Jeff made crazy decisions that led to the phrase "only the mets". Kazmir trade, Cano trade, 3 headed GM, hiring an agent as GM, and too many WTF PR stories to count like Bernazard and Adam Rubin. And if you want some directly sourced non-revisionist history - these crazy shenanigans were prophesied in 2003 by their former partner Nelson Doubleday.
Also I generally think its lame to repost but here's the BVW hire thread since you think skepticism of him was revisionist history too, this clearly shows that many fans (and 1 of the most respected and well sourced writers in all sports Ken Rosenthal) were at the very least skeptical of his hire in large part because of the Wilpons track record of unconventional and generally poor decision making.
I find it bizarre to act like this is a fanbase that doesn't have a right to criticize failed owners because at times they had mixed opinions or were willing to give someone like BVW a chance despite skepticism. There was a honeymoon period for BVW after his first press conference where there was optimism around his FO hires, right up until the Cano trade went down, which I would consider to be the exact kind of "rookie gm and former agent wildly overpays for his former geriatric client in a positive cash flow move as jeff wilpon tells him his first trade should be a big one" move many feared when the Wilpons made the surprising move to hire him.
NFT: The Mets and Brodie Van Wagenen have agreed to terms - ( New Window )
My point has been they are so bad with stuff they actually do there is no need to shit on them for stuff they don't do (like hiring exclusively inexperienced managers)
The whole world knows post Madoff the Mets spending habits have changed. And almost universally Mets fans are looking forward to an ownership change.
My point has been they are so bad with stuff they actually do there is no need to shit on them for stuff they don't do (like hiring exclusively inexperienced managers)
The whole world knows post Madoff the Mets spending habits have changed. And almost universally Mets fans are looking forward to an ownership change.
again - I did not say they exclusively hire inexperienced managers. Unless you are quoting someone else you continue twisting my comment that hiring an inexperienced manager is a symptom of bad owners into a larger point I wasn't making.
and again as I explained above, the larger point I made about their managerial hiring practices just a few posts earlier than the post about inexperienced managers was that they always hired cheap managers - which i'm quite certain is true. This past hiring process that resulted in 2 inexperienced managers getting hired also twice bypassed more expensive experienced managers (Girardi and Dusty) who seemingly would have been the better direction to go for a team trying to compete. That is why hiring an inexperienced manager in this case was a symptom of bad ownership.
In comment 14942630 Eric on Li said:
Eric on Li : 8/2/2020 8:22 pm : link : reply
inexperienced managers are a symptom of the disease..... ...
Yankees hire Aaron Boone (first time manager) and in some way that's not a symptom of a disease, Red Sox hire Alex Cora and that wasn't a symptom of disease, but Callaway is? The payroll probably has more to do with W/L record then the experience of the manager (to an extent) and really isn't a symptom of a disease.
My point was the Mets have hired a mix of experienced managers and first time managers, etc. so cherry picking the guys who don't work out like Callaway isn't necessary to demonstrate the Wilpons failures.
Of your list of issues with the Wilpons that is the main one I felt like is just piling on.
And if you're being honest you will separate the pre-madoff decisions and post-madoff - we all know post-madoff things are different.
and re: symptoms a headache can just be a headache cured in 15 minutes with an advil.
or a headache can be an indicator of a malignant brain tumor, diagnosed in combination with other tests and symptoms.
The ownerships of the Yankees, Red Sox, and Mets can exhibit the exact symptom, with very different underlying causes.
My posts were both quite clear that the Wilpons are the malignant tumor in this analogy with the entire list of symptoms in combination being what leads to the diagnosis. Odd you mention cherry picking because that's how I view ignoring the full context of those posts and in part distorting the fragment you pulled out ("exclusively"). If you disagree with the Wilpons being a malignant ownership over the past 20 years go ahead but no need to misrepresent what I said to do so.
Inexperienced managers ARE NOT a symptom of anything. Some work out some don't.
If you want to move the goal posts and say inexpensive managers are a symptom of a disease, go ahead but it's not what you said and it's not what I disagreed with.
I have not one time defended or said anything positive about the Wilpons. So if anyone is misrepresenting what someone else said it's you.
Inexperienced managers ARE NOT a symptom of anything. Some work out some don't.
If you want to move the goal posts and say inexpensive managers are a symptom of a disease, go ahead but it's not what you said and it's not what I disagreed with.
I have not one time defended or said anything positive about the Wilpons. So if anyone is misrepresenting what someone else said it's you.
Inexperience is a common symptom for the Wilpons because it is cheaper than the alternative and they look for 'yes men' as opposed to managers or GM's who won't let them interfere. There's a reason Mickey Callaway was paid less than Terry Collins - as any of their 4 finalists for the job that year would have been. Beltran/Rojas were paid less than Girardi and likely Dusty Baker and BVW specifically cited wanting a personality that was less confrontational. Nobody questions the Yankees or Red Sox desire to win or willingness to spend money in every aspect of how they operate so there's totally different context with them in any move they make.
We are beyond the point of semantics and parody here but it is black and white that you referenced something I specifically did not say (like hiring exclusively inexperienced managers). I never said they did, same as I never represented you to have made any defense of the Wilpons. I did not type words saying either of those things into the internets.