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Do you think Tom Coughlin makes the HOF?

SFGFNCGiantsFan : 8/2/2020 7:57 pm
Not asking if you think he should, but do you think he gets in? Only Flores & Seifert have won multiple Super Bowl titles as HC & aren't in Canton.
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It's called the Hall of FAME...  
BlueLou'sBack : 8/3/2020 1:59 am : link
Who can forget this frozen face in Green Bay?

Huge playoff upsets count too.
Who could say no to this face? - ( New Window )
This is how I see it as well Hitsquad  
Sneakers O'toole : 8/3/2020 6:03 am : link
Quote:
You can't tell the storied history of the NFL without Tom Coughlin (the inception of the Jacksonville franchise and the two Super Bowl wins, one of which is an all-time classic)
RE: Which of these two guys should get in?  
Lines of Scrimmage : 8/3/2020 6:59 am : link
In comment 14942793 Gary from The East End said:
Quote:

Coach A: 170/138 (.552) - Playoffs (8-6) - Two SB wins
Coach B: 170/150 (.531) - Playoffs (12-7) - Two SB wins

The fact is that Coughlin has a lot of losing seasons and mediocre winning percentage.


Sure you can say that. The record is what it is. If you get a sensible presenter and objective voters looking at it they will see that this was mostly from his last four years. Then you see since he left the Giants are on their third Head Coach and have a new GM and still have stunk. Hard to win when you have little talent to work with and I think most will see that drafting was the issue not TC.
RE: Which of these two guys should get in?  
Big Blue '56 : 8/3/2020 7:18 am : link
In comment 14942793 Gary from The East End said:
Quote:

Coach A: 170/138 (.552) - Playoffs (8-6) - Two SB wins
Coach B: 170/150 (.531) - Playoffs (12-7) - Two SB wins

The fact is that Coughlin has a lot of losing seasons and mediocre winning percentage.


Dr. D, above:

Quote:
But when you add 2 SB victories both as major underdogs including possibly greatest upset ever against possibly greatest coach ever, you have to be a crazy Coughlin hater to say anything but f*ck yes.



Records don’t always tell the most pertinent stories. 4 NFC Championship games. Meh.
2 NFC and 2 AFC,  
Big Blue '56 : 8/3/2020 7:19 am : link
that is
Sometimes the deserving, like Coughlin, are underappreciated because  
Marty in Albany : 8/3/2020 9:07 am : link
of lack of notice by others.

Unfortunately the words "flamboyant," "distinctive" and "celebrity" are not used in the same sentence with Tom Coughlin.

If he had a little more panache, I would be certain of his induction.
RE: Sometimes the deserving, like Coughlin, are underappreciated because  
Big Blue '56 : 8/3/2020 9:16 am : link
In comment 14942874 Marty in Albany said:
Quote:
of lack of notice by others.

Unfortunately the words "flamboyant," "distinctive" and "celebrity" are not used in the same sentence with Tom Coughlin.

If he had a little more panache, I would be certain of his induction.


You don’t think his cheeks had the requisite panache? Asking for a friend.
Easily  
David B. : 8/3/2020 9:20 am : link
His two SB wins were against Belichick.
He's basically right behind Parcells in wins and winning percentage, and he's AHEAD of other HOF coaches like Gibbs, Bud Grant. Levy, Cowher, Dungy.

I just hope they induct him before he dies.
RE: Easily  
Big Blue '56 : 8/3/2020 9:29 am : link
In comment 14942882 David B. said:
Quote:
His two SB wins were against Belichick.
He's basically right behind Parcells in wins and winning percentage, and he's AHEAD of other HOF coaches like Gibbs, Bud Grant. Levy, Cowher, Dungy.

I just hope they induct him before he dies.


He will never die. What’s wrong with you? This is TC we’re talking about!
No doubter  
HomerJones45 : 8/3/2020 10:00 am : link
First ballot.

Two of the greatest championship game victories in the 100 year history of the NFL belong to the New York Football Giants, and posters carp. Haters gonna hate.
he goes in on Roller Skates  
YorkAveGiant : 8/3/2020 10:14 am : link
the win totals coupled with the 2 titles, and then the 2 AFC Champ games....

LOCK.
Yes he will make it  
arniefez : 8/3/2020 11:05 am : link
and Eli will for the same reason, beating Belichick and Brady twice.
RE: Easily  
Gary from The East End : Admin : 8/3/2020 11:12 am : link
In comment 14942882 David B. said:
Quote:
His two SB wins were against Belichick.
He's basically right behind Parcells in wins and winning percentage, and he's AHEAD of other HOF coaches like Gibbs, Bud Grant. Levy, Cowher, Dungy.

I just hope they induct him before he dies.


What?

Coughlin (170/150/.531)


Parcells (172/130/.569)
Gibbs (154/94/.621)
Grant (158/96/.621)
Cowher (149/90/.623)
Levy (143/112/.561)
Dungy (139/69/.668)


Coughlin's winning percentage isn't close to any of those guys. Yes, he's got more wins, but he also has a lot more losses.

TC is the fifth most losing coach in NFL history. The biggest loser coach in NFL history, by the way, is Dan Reeves. And he has more wins and a better winning percentage (190/165/.535) than Coughlin.


Gary  
UConn4523 : 8/3/2020 11:26 am : link
so you think no?

I think most think he will not only get in but get in 1st ballot - you seem to think those losses matter so much he may not get in at all, unless i'm reading what your saying incorrectly.

When you quickly make an expansion team into a contender and then you take a team like ours who reset with the Rookie QB in 2004 to 8 straight non-losing seasons with 2 legendary playoff runs against the GOAT HC + QB, then i'm not really sure how any other shortcomings can make a dent.

Coughling lost his fastball towards the end with the in-game adjustment/management issues and coupled with some really shitty drafts the losses piled it. It happens.
Ridiculous question...  
Grey Pilgrim : 8/3/2020 11:39 am : link
Yes,of course.
The 2007 Giants lost at home  
rocco8112 : 8/3/2020 12:01 pm : link
week one to the Cowboys, and never lost another road game. This includes the ultimate road win in frozen Green Bay. Again, after week one the team never lost another road game en route to a title.

The team also played for real week 17 instead of resting and rolling out the red carpet for the Pats to go undefeated in the regular season. This went against the ideas of the "experts" and took balls from the HC. Think that paid dividends in the playoff run?

Of course there is the biggest Superbowl upset ever against the "Greatest Team of All Time" That 2007 team cut through the best of the NFL like a knife through butter during that playoff run. Road warriors and dynasty killers through and through. Everyone picked them to lose. The team was better than the sum of its parts. One of the best coaching jobs of all-time.

The knock? Oh it was a fluke, very similar thing happened four years later. Another title, same HC, same QB for that matter.

TC is a lock for the Hall.

I find it strange how so many Giants fans look to bring down TC. I admit my bias, to me they should put a statue up for those two titles.

Been a bit light in the coaching department since he was let go. I will take his supposed mediocrity back.
Over 1100 views and 50+ posts on this thread thus far  
LBH15 : 8/3/2020 12:11 pm : link
and where are all these Giant fans "looking to bring down" Coughlin?
I can't imagine any scenario  
Johnny5 : 8/3/2020 12:22 pm : link
… where Tom Coughlin is not in the HOF.
Plax doesn't shoot himself  
Bubba : 8/3/2020 12:42 pm : link
he might have won a 3rd SB. So yes he gets in.
RE: Plax doesn't shoot himself  
Mark from Jersey : 8/3/2020 12:48 pm : link
In comment 14943044 Bubba said:
Quote:
he might have won a 3rd SB. So yes he gets in.
I agree...Amazing to think what could have been. That team was so talented.
If you look at this objectively and not as a Giants fan...  
Gary from The East End : Admin : 8/3/2020 1:06 pm : link
...his case is marginal at best.

What you're seeing here is the typical fan discussion where good looking stats are cherry picked to try and make points.

Yes, he has 170 wins, which is good for a tie for 14th all time and is a point in his favor.

On the other hand, Dan Reeves, Chuck Knox and Jeff Fisher have more wins and they're not HOF candidates by a long shot.

Coughlin's .531 winning percentage in the regular season puts him the bottom third of NFL coaches with 10 or more seasons. That's a decent NFL career, but hardly worth of the HOF

As an aside, anyone who is arguing that his tenure with the Jaguars puts him over the top because they were an expansion club is smoking somthing. The NFL stacked the deck in favor of the expansion teams that year.

Anyway, on the post season. In twenty years as a coach, TC took his team to the post season nine times, which is pretty good. In five of those visits, he failed to win a single game, which is not very good at all.

TC's two Superbowl wins are really the only thing that puts him in the conversation for the HOF. So lets talk about that.

There are nine coaches in the NFL with exactly two NFL championships in the Superbowl era. Five of them, Lombardi, Shula, Landry, Parcells and Johnson are in the HOF.

Shanahan will almost certainly get in, even though his weak years with the Washington Football Team drag him down some. Even after losing 40 games in the swamp, he has 12 fewer losses and a better winning percentage than TC.

Flores and Seifert, as others have noted, are not getting in. So two SB's are certainly not enough on their own.

The final argument in favor of TC, and it's not a bad one at all, is that he had to beat Bill Belichick, the best NFL coach of the 21st century, to get his trophies. Is reflected glory enough to get into the Hall?
RE: It’s like citing Plunkett as the reason  
Gatorade Dunk : 8/3/2020 1:25 pm : link
In comment 14942701 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
Eli shouldn’t/won’t get in.

It’s a stupid argument.

I think Plunkett vs. Eli is a MUCH stronger comparison than Flores/Seifert vs. Coughlin.

TC is absolutely a lock, IMO. But I also think TC being the lock that he is, combined with Eli's sharp decline under other coaches (and Eli's streaky inconsistency for better or worse throughout his career) could simultaneously strengthen TC's candidacy and weaken Eli's.

I think they both get in, but IMO TC is way more of a shoo-in than Eli.
RE: Over 1100 views and 50+ posts on this thread thus far  
rocco8112 : 8/3/2020 1:26 pm : link
In comment 14943007 LBH15 said:
Quote:
and where are all these Giant fans "looking to bring down" Coughlin?


Perhaps I overstated, in general I find it difficult to see Coughlin through anything other then rosy glasses. On many threads and arguments regarding Coughlin there is always a contingent looking to make the argument bringing him down a few pegs. Nothing wrong with that at all, I just don't get it.

I admit this bias fully. For me as a sports fan, it is the big wins and moments that are what it is all about, and Coughlin brought two titles here and the 2007 run was tops for me as a sports fan, still can't believe it happened.

He is in my sports fan Hall of Fame and if I had a vote I put him in the NFL Hall as well.
What about Mike Holmgren?  
Greg from LI : 8/3/2020 1:30 pm : link
Almost as many wins, much better winning percentage, and he was flat out robbed of a second ring by atrocious officiating in SB XL, a ring that would have made him the only coach to win a Super Bowl with two different franchises. He's not in.
To me  
Big Al : 8/3/2020 1:36 pm : link
Gary states the case best,
RE: What about Mike Holmgren?  
Johnny5 : 8/3/2020 1:56 pm : link
In comment 14943094 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Almost as many wins, much better winning percentage, and he was flat out robbed of a second ring by atrocious officiating in SB XL, a ring that would have made him the only coach to win a Super Bowl with two different franchises. He's not in.

That's a good point Greg. I think what Coughlin did at Jax is being underplayed a bit though.

Coughlin coached the most successful expansion team in league history, and it's not close. Four consecutive playoff appearances, and AFC Championship Game twice. The first time upsetting the heavily favored Buffalo Bills and Denver Broncos on the road. He was NFL Coach of the Year that year. In 99 he was 14-2 the most won by the current expansion teams (the Jaguars, Carolina Panthers, Baltimore Ravens and Houston Texans) until the Panthers surpassed it in 2015. I guess you could argue that Fisher had his number, but I think with Titans Jax it was more about the matchup (especially with McNair).
Yup  
exiled : 8/3/2020 2:00 pm : link
He’s an HOFer. Nice reminiscing about his accomplishments on this thread.
Gary  
UConn4523 : 8/3/2020 2:06 pm : link
I don't think "stats" are part of my argument at all (or really anyones). He made 2 franchises wildly successful despite uphill battles at both and his 2nd HC stint landed him 2 titles against all odds.

He didn't take over good teams, and when he left the teams were never good again. In the 17 years since he left the Jags they had 4 winning seasons. Since leaving the Giants we've had 1 and we aren't likely to sniff it again until atleast 2021.

I don't really know what your argument is to be honest. It seems like you think that 2 Superbowl wins shouldn't be the leading factor in all this...why?
The Giants sucked well before Coughlin was pushed out  
Greg from LI : 8/3/2020 2:16 pm : link
And let's be honest here - the Coughlin era and Eli Manning's career were both marked by very high points mixed in with a series of inexplicable, baffling low points. It's more than a bit puzzling when you're telling me a coach is an absolute lock for the Hall of Fame when his team only won a playoff game in two of twelve seasons for which he was at the helm, and several of those seasons featured embarrassing losses either in the playoffs (2005, 2008) or in the regular season to keep them from the playoffs (2009 blowout loss to the Panthers, 2010 to the Eagles, 2012 Bengals, Ravens, Redskins).
ultimately, I think he probably makes it  
Greg from LI : 8/3/2020 2:16 pm : link
But it will take a while. He certainly will not make it on the first ballot.
Two coaches  
DieHard : 8/3/2020 3:13 pm : link
Coach A:
80-64 (.556)
Playoffs: 9-4 (.692)
2 Super Bowl wins

Coach B:
170-150 (.531)
Playoffs: 12-7 (.632)
2 Super Bowl wins

Coach B is Coughlin. Coach A is Jimmy Johnson, who also had a team loaded with All-Pros for most of his Dallas tenure. If Jimmy is in the Hall, I think it's fair to think that Coughlin has a decent shot.
Eventually probably.....  
MOOPS : 8/3/2020 3:49 pm : link
but there are some blatant and regrettable on-field and off-field moments that will play against him in the short term.
I think he gets in....  
BillKo : 8/3/2020 3:50 pm : link
....built an expansion team (with modified rules of course), and won two SB's versus the dominating team of its era.

And Coughlin also has that reputation as well, for being just a class act all the way around.

Sometimes it takes coaches longer than players, unless you're a slam dunk.

RE: What about Mike Holmgren?  
BillKo : 8/3/2020 3:51 pm : link
In comment 14943094 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Almost as many wins, much better winning percentage, and he was flat out robbed of a second ring by atrocious officiating in SB XL, a ring that would have made him the only coach to win a Super Bowl with two different franchises. He's not in.


But he didn't win it..............I mean, do you put on his bio he "almost and probably should have" won that second SB......
I categorically discount all coulda/shoula/woulda arguments  
Gary from The East End : Admin : 8/3/2020 4:13 pm : link
Sure, maybe TC wins a third SB if Plax doesn't shoot himself. But if Ahmad Bradshaw doesn't stand on his head in the second to last game against Buffalo, the Giants miss the playoffs and TC is fired at the end of the season.

Your record is what it is and that's really the only thing you can and should judge people on.

RE: RE: What about Mike Holmgren?  
Greg from LI : 8/3/2020 4:15 pm : link
In comment 14943209 BillKo said:
Quote:
But he didn't win it..............I mean, do you put on his bio he "almost and probably should have" won that second SB......


Well, you have an awful lot of people falling over themselves to praise Coughlin for a season in which his team lost the AFC title game, to Jeff Fisher of all people - the guy who is the dictionary definition of NFL coaching mediocrity.
RE: RE: Over 1100 views and 50+ posts on this thread thus far  
LBH15 : 8/3/2020 4:20 pm : link
In comment 14943090 rocco8112 said:
Quote:
In comment 14943007 LBH15 said:


Quote:


and where are all these Giant fans "looking to bring down" Coughlin?



Perhaps I overstated, in general I find it difficult to see Coughlin through anything other then rosy glasses. On many threads and arguments regarding Coughlin there is always a contingent looking to make the argument bringing him down a few pegs. Nothing wrong with that at all, I just don't get it.

I admit this bias fully. For me as a sports fan, it is the big wins and moments that are what it is all about, and Coughlin brought two titles here and the 2007 run was tops for me as a sports fan, still can't believe it happened.

He is in my sports fan Hall of Fame and if I had a vote I put him in the NFL Hall as well.


I got it rocco. And i put Coughlin in the HOF just as you would. But just as you are a Giant fan that has a bias that Coughlin is all-rosy, I am sure there are fans that have a bias that he is lesser so. Recall he was fired a few times in the last decade.
are we are flailing over it  
UConn4523 : 8/3/2020 4:21 pm : link
or are we simply pointing out that taking a brand new expansion franchise to pretty rapid levels of success is something notable on his resume?

Coughlin is going to be a HoFer, sorry to break it to you.
RE: Two coaches  
Gary from The East End : Admin : 8/3/2020 4:22 pm : link
In comment 14943194 DieHard said:
Quote:
Coach A:
80-64 (.556)
Playoffs: 9-4 (.692)
2 Super Bowl wins

Coach B:
170-150 (.531)
Playoffs: 12-7 (.632)
2 Super Bowl wins

Coach B is Coughlin. Coach A is Jimmy Johnson, who also had a team loaded with All-Pros for most of his Dallas tenure. If Jimmy is in the Hall, I think it's fair to think that Coughlin has a decent shot.


I think Johnson is a marginal pick for the HOF. He only coached for nine seasons and has a better, but still not great, win percentage, although that's dragged down by the 1-15 season in his freshman year.

Still, he has six playoff appearances in nine years and wins in five out of six of them.

I think his broadcast career, plus the America's Team horseshit, helped push him over the top. Even at that, it took him twenty years to get in.
RE: RE: RE: What about Mike Holmgren?  
DieHard : 8/3/2020 4:33 pm : link
In comment 14943231 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14943209 BillKo said:


Quote:


But he didn't win it..............I mean, do you put on his bio he "almost and probably should have" won that second SB......

Well, you have an awful lot of people falling over themselves to praise Coughlin for a season in which his team lost the AFC title game, to Jeff Fisher of all people - the guy who is the dictionary definition of NFL coaching mediocrity.


Fisher had Coughlin's number, for whatever reason. It happens (see: Buddy Ryan vs. Parcells, 1988-1990).

What really needs explaining is how the all-time great Belichick could lose to the Coughlin in the Super Bowl, twice. ;-)
Of course he does.  
FStubbs : 8/3/2020 5:26 pm : link
If you make the argument that he had 1-2 non-first ballot Hall of Famers at best during his run with the Giants, no pro bowlers, and still won 2 Superbowls, plus the record he had in Jacksonville starting that team from scratch, he's most definitely a Hall of Famer.
RE: RE: RE: RE: What about Mike Holmgren?  
Enzo : 8/3/2020 5:59 pm : link
In comment 14943246 DieHard said:
Quote:
In comment 14943231 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


In comment 14943209 BillKo said:


Quote:


But he didn't win it..............I mean, do you put on his bio he "almost and probably should have" won that second SB......

Well, you have an awful lot of people falling over themselves to praise Coughlin for a season in which his team lost the AFC title game, to Jeff Fisher of all people - the guy who is the dictionary definition of NFL coaching mediocrity.



Fisher had Coughlin's number, for whatever reason. It happens (see: Buddy Ryan vs. Parcells, 1988-1990).

Fisher, Reid, Payton....
Coaches  
Dragon : 8/3/2020 7:53 pm : link
It’s the nature of humans to overrate people because what they did in a short period of time during the entire period. Did he win a Super Bowl or two then he is almost always a lock as a HOF but the full profile shows him
as a decent coach no more no less. Much like Eli was a decent QB who showed up game after game but he won two Super Bowls so rightly he should make the HOF. Now when you look at the truly Great Coaches Shula, Landry, Halas, Belichick is it not a slap in the face to them when talking about these other decent coaches as HOF worthy? Remember the records not just the Super Bowls won that’s when you see Great Coaching the ability to win no matter the talent or lack of special talent.
Shula only won Super Bowls  
XBRONX : 8/3/2020 7:57 pm : link
with the talent that was largely in place before he got there.
TC is a stone cold lock for the Hall  
Torrag : 8/3/2020 7:58 pm : link
...


I'm happy TC matched Parcells in Super Bowl victories  
widmerseyebrow : 8/3/2020 9:38 pm : link
and eventually the HOF.

I think some here are not happy about that.
RE: RE: RE: What about Mike Holmgren?  
BillKo : 8/4/2020 10:25 am : link
In comment 14943231 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14943209 BillKo said:


Quote:


But he didn't win it..............I mean, do you put on his bio he "almost and probably should have" won that second SB......



Well, you have an awful lot of people falling over themselves to praise Coughlin for a season in which his team lost the AFC title game, to Jeff Fisher of all people - the guy who is the dictionary definition of NFL coaching mediocrity.


The praise is simply for building a team from literally scratch into a contending franchise.......that's part of his resume.

Parcells  
Dragon : 8/4/2020 11:48 am : link
Is a HOF coach why because he won two Super Bowls what else did he do jump from team to team showing the ability to walk at anytime. Him being a HOF coach makes all the coaches after look like HOF worthy why because they won two Super Bowls. Lynn Swann is a HOF why because he made some spectacular catches in the Super Bowl what other stats does he present to warrant this highest regard? Was he even the best WR on his team during his supposedly glory days another question to answer. Yes his team won four Super Bowls but was he ever a truly great NFL receiver during his career much like these two win Super Bowls coaches. Yes winning the Super Bowl is not an easy task but it’s called the Hall Of Fame not Super Bowl Heaven or is it?
Wut?  
Britt in VA : 8/4/2020 12:33 pm : link
?
RE: It's called the Hall of FAME...  
Rolyrock : 8/5/2020 8:49 pm : link
In comment 14942821 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
Who can forget this frozen face in Green Bay?

Huge playoff upsets count too. Who could say no to this face? - ( New Window )
+ 1
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