there are 330 million Americans and 3 million per year die from various causes. All tragic. The show will and should go on for the younger, healthier population - your temper tantrums aside.
the #1 killer of Americans right now is CoVid. I'm not willing to *sacrifice* anyone.
I find this line of thinking to be craven and disgusting. Young people spread it same as old.
How many kids have died from Covid under 16? How many kids are being killed in our cities from senseless shootings?
I do not understand all this arguing over the players. They are making a choice to play or not play and if they choose not they are still being paid more than the vast majority of people in the workforce. Any other profession being given this choice?
RE: People are really setting up total strawmen that don't exist here.
choice, no? Besides covid = career ending? Reaching
a little IMO.
You don't know that.
A few months ago, the most common thinking on Covid was that it was a respiratory disease. Now we know that it's vascular with strong respiratory symptoms.
This virus is not even a year old yet. Imagine what else we'll know with the benefit of time.
there are 330 million Americans and 3 million per year die from various causes. All tragic. The show will and should go on for the younger, healthier population - your temper tantrums aside.
the #1 killer of Americans right now is CoVid. I'm not willing to *sacrifice* anyone.
That is absolutely false, and its not even close. I respect a lot of people's opinions on this board about taking a cautious approach - Bill L, kicker, CiP and many others - you dont fall in that camp. You're completely paranoid and devoid of facts and data in your takes.
there are 330 million Americans and 3 million per year die from various causes. All tragic. The show will and should go on for the younger, healthier population - your temper tantrums aside.
the #1 killer of Americans right now is CoVid. I'm not willing to *sacrifice* anyone.
That is absolutely false, and its not even close. I respect a lot of people's opinions on this board about taking a cautious approach - Bill L, kicker, CiP and many others - you dont fall in that camp. You're completely paranoid and devoid of facts and data in your takes.
160,000 deaths is current and accurate. Estimates have CoVid as a top-3 leading cause of death, without considering excess mortality.
I have a household with hospital staff in it, family and friends are healthcare professionals. None of them take it as lightly as your reckless stance.
A lot of us (myself included) talked about how nice Memorial Day weekend would be with the pandemic behind us. That was 5 months ago and we are still mostly in the same position now.
Why not try to have a football season? The NBA/NHL has been going very well. MLB has gone well aside of 2 outbreaks.
I have a household with hospital staff in it, family and friends are healthcare professionals. None of them take it as lightly as your reckless stance.
You continuously look to expand the discussion beyond the scope of this thread and what’s allowed on BBI. Your deferral to authority in the ‘Medical’ household is noted - I know doctors too amazing I know! - and one could easily argue all professional sports leagues have reopened this year so that means they’re all ‘reckless’ in your view... moving on
You remain way way to high level on this subject matter. Of course it’s a serious matter especially for those at higher age and with underlying health issues. We all knew that. Anything else from 5 Months ago to bring to the debate?
Let’s get back on topic - please support your stance that Daniel Jones will need not one but two lung transplants if he plays this season. Case studies, age based metrics, cold hard statistics, anything other than your gutt?
Separately, glad upon further your review covid went from the biggest killer in the US to after called on that ... it might be in the top 3. We’re making progress on your bullshit.
In the off-season. No way to know who would get it if there's a season vs not.
This is a good point. One could argue they might be safer in the controlled environment.
The problem isn't the environment insomuch as the sport itself. Look how it's spreading in MLB - the most minimal contact major sport. NFL linemen literally wrestle, sweat, breathe heavily, yell and spit all over one another on every single play. If one lineman has it, 100% certainty both lines will have it by game's end.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. All the books we read and movies we saw about Pandemic's - I don't recall a single story that had this *damn the torpedoes* approach.
2020 sucks.
Think back on those movies. Maybe you’re thinking of 28 days later, when in a month a virus turned most of a city into zombies. Maybe you’re thinking of Contagion, where 2.5mm people in the USA die from the disease, and 25% of people who catch it die, regardless of age, in a matter of days. Or maybe it is some other movie.
Did any of those pandemic movies terrify you with a pandemic that killed just 4,000 total people under 45 over six months, and which at least 99.7% of people survive and which appears to have already started to burn out in way more than half the country?
I could get on an even higher horse than yours and ask why you think it’s acceptable to play during any flu season. Yes, COVID is more deadly than flu, but flu is still deadly. So, how many people are you willing to risk during the next ordinary flu season? Can you name names?
This ignores the fact that what, 30% of NYC and now 20% of even places like Arizona are testing positive for antibodies. And those numbers are 1) undercounting Bc of T cell rather than antibody immunity and 2) only going up every day. So the idea that a Cardinals player (or anyone) has a real method of avoiding the disease is ludicrous. Yes, you can lock yourself at home like my 94yo grandmother does, but if you are leaving your house much at all you are at roughly the same risk of contracting covid at some point by year end as by playing football.
Clemson star Xavier Thomas will miss most of the 2020 season after a battle with COVID-19, strep throat.
Dabo Swinney: "He’s just nowhere near where he needs to be to play football."
Story is now updated, including this quote from Dabo Swinney: "He had a hard time when he got back with just his breathing... that’s a combination of COVID, his strep throat, being a little heavy."
I could get on an even higher horse than yours and ask why you think it’s acceptable to play during any flu season. Yes, COVID is more deadly than flu, but flu is still deadly. So, how many people are you willing to risk during the next ordinary flu season? Can you name names?
This ignores the fact that what, 30% of NYC and now 20% of even places like Arizona are testing positive for antibodies. And those numbers are 1) undercounting Bc of T cell rather than antibody immunity and 2) only going up every day. So the idea that a Cardinals player (or anyone) has a real method of avoiding the disease is ludicrous. Yes, you can lock yourself at home like my 94yo grandmother does, but if you are leaving your house much at all you are at roughly the same risk of contracting covid at some point by year end as by playing football.
I'd rebut but I feel like it would be too much effort to explain to you what the letter T means, much less a T cell.
I could get on an even higher horse than yours and ask why you think it’s acceptable to play during any flu season. Yes, COVID is more deadly than flu, but flu is still deadly. So, how many people are you willing to risk during the next ordinary flu season? Can you name names?
This ignores the fact that what, 30% of NYC and now 20% of even places like Arizona are testing positive for antibodies. And those numbers are 1) undercounting Bc of T cell rather than antibody immunity and 2) only going up every day. So the idea that a Cardinals player (or anyone) has a real method of avoiding the disease is ludicrous. Yes, you can lock yourself at home like my 94yo grandmother does, but if you are leaving your house much at all you are at roughly the same risk of contracting covid at some point by year end as by playing football.
I'd rebut but I feel like it would be too much effort to explain to you what the letter T means, much less a T cell.
Ooof. :)
why would a specific letter such as T have meaning?
I could get on an even higher horse than yours and ask why you think it’s acceptable to play during any flu season. Yes, COVID is more deadly than flu, but flu is still deadly. So, how many people are you willing to risk during the next ordinary flu season? Can you name names?
This ignores the fact that what, 30% of NYC and now 20% of even places like Arizona are testing positive for antibodies. And those numbers are 1) undercounting Bc of T cell rather than antibody immunity and 2) only going up every day. So the idea that a Cardinals player (or anyone) has a real method of avoiding the disease is ludicrous. Yes, you can lock yourself at home like my 94yo grandmother does, but if you are leaving your house much at all you are at roughly the same risk of contracting covid at some point by year end as by playing football.
I'd rebut but I feel like it would be too much effort to explain to you what the letter T means, much less a T cell.
Oh dear, how will I ever recover from such a sick burn.
I’ll ask it directly: people die from flu. Was it immoral for MJ to play in the “flu game”?
For people of NFL age, flu probably kills at about the same rate as covid, but let’s say it’s 3x higher. Have you calibrated your risk threshold so precisely that covid (1 in 3k dies let’s say) breaches it but flu (1 in 10k let’s say) does not? How did you get there?
And one step further: Why should pro football players be more scared of covid that CTE this year? Which do you think will impair more NFL players long term existence if they played this year? Hint: it’s CTE by multiple orders of magnitude.
...most of them, like most of us - are more worried about spreading it to those who are at risk.
We're supposed to all be in this together. We look at the rest of the industrialized world, we look right over the border at Canada and see how collectively the disease can be brought under control and how economies can recover.
And we refuse to do it. Because as I've been told "The show will and should go on for the younger, healthier population".
Is it really a surprise that a novel virus that seems
to have significant morbidity aspects (that appear to be growing) would cause more consternation among health experts and regular people than an annual virus that we seem to have a decent grasp on, for short- and long-term impacts.?
...most of them, like most of us - are more worried about spreading it to those who are at risk.
We're supposed to all be in this together. We look at the rest of the industrialized world, we look right over the border at Canada and see how collectively the disease can be brought under control and how economies can recover.
And we refuse to do it. Because as I've been told "The show will and should go on for the younger, healthier population".
I guess i missed the part where sports ARENT being played in other countries as you suggest we do here. I guess i missed the part where other countries are still in quarantine and under strict stay-at-home orders, where younger healthier people are not allowed to go to work and earn an income as you suggest football players do in this thread.
You want to suggest we all wear masks when out - I'm all for it, i do it myself.
You want to suggest players not spend time with their parents and grand parents during the season given they'll be at higher risk of spread for a few months - I agree
But instead you've come on here and your proposed solution is... no season, no income... and that if we play, Daniel Jones will likely require two lung transplants.... its just crazy embellishment and thinking you get to decide who gets to work and make money and who doesnt is just incredibly controlling.
RE: Is it really a surprise that a novel virus that seems
to have significant morbidity aspects (that appear to be growing) would cause more consternation among health experts and regular people than an annual virus that we seem to have a decent grasp on, for short- and long-term impacts.?
A novel virus:
with a mortality rate of 0% in those age 24 and younger.
A virus that is completely asymptomatic 80% of the time.
A virus that affects those with comorbidities almost exclusively (yes the 41 year-old actor smoked).
The fans and staff are at infinitely more risk than the players. If they don't go home to someone immunocompromised (think Nate Solder) there is very little risk.
Ask yourself why all we hear about now is "cases".
Also, if you think this is bad, especially for my NY area friends that hear "Houston is sooooo bad" just go to indeed.com and see who's hiring nurses. Houston isn't.
Hospitals are furloughing nurses, and staffs are twiddling their thumbs.
that if your big "insight" is to link into a shitty Google search, you would be able to do something more than look at Indeed.com and see that, in the recent past, Houston hospitals have contracted with travelling nurses to provide additional ICU care, since hospital nursing is different than family nursing.
it is unlikely that we have the political, economic, or societal will to reimpose significant lockdowns that we have seen. This is exacerbated by this being a significant election year.
At this point, a major goal should be managing caseloads currently, doing what we can at low cost (mask mandates, encouraging social distancing, limiting large gatherings), and preparing for the potential for a nasty fall/winter.
Unfortunately, the biggest issue coming up will be staff burnout in healthcare facilities, and how we manage that.
RE: RE: Players aren't worried about their own health...
Quote:
But instead you've come on here and your proposed solution is... no season, no income... and that if we play, Daniel Jones will likely require two lung transplants.... its just crazy embellishment and thinking you get to decide who gets to work and make money and who doesnt is just incredibly controlling.
Interesting interpretation of *my solution*.
My opinion is that it's folly to do what the NFL is trying to for a variety of obvious reasons - I'm fine with regional opening on a phased approach nationwide for ALL jobs. The Northeast is currently in good shape, most of the rest of the country is not. Yes, training camp and games in the Meadowlands are low CoVid risk TODAY.
The NFL is an enormous enterprise made up of heavily staffed franchises that travel to and from regions all over the country. EXACTLY what you DO NOT need during a PANDEMIC.
You want to keep football in safe regions, fine. NFL (and MLB) IMO should just make it an exhibition season since there is no way to tell how many games will actually be completed and which teams will make it through a CoVid impacted season. Teams have already lost players who are opting out. MLB teams already cancelling stretches of schedule. 56 NFL players have contracted CoVid to date, and we haven't played a single snap.
*I* don't get to determine who gets to work or play and who doesn't.
CoVid does.
RE: RE: Is it really a surprise that a novel virus that seems
Also, if you think this is bad, especially for my NY area friends that hear "Houston is sooooo bad" just go to indeed.com and see who's hiring nurses. Houston isn't.
Hospitals are furloughing nurses, and staffs are twiddling their thumbs.
Google Search Mixed Messages, LOL - ( New Window )
FYI - in heavily impacted area's, hospital and healthcare layoffs and furloughs are common because MUCH of what healthcare does is SHUT DOWN. No elective surgery, in-house offices, rehab, etc are shut down. The Hospital's focus becomes almost ENTIRELY CoVid and ER.
So what you're seeing in Houston is actually status quo, at least in hard hit area's. Here, upstate NY hospitals have returned to their normal pace for the most part but back in April were experiencing similar functional shutdowns and layoffs.
to have significant morbidity aspects (that appear to be growing) would cause more consternation among health experts and regular people than an annual virus that we seem to have a decent grasp on, for short- and long-term impacts.?
A novel virus:
with a mortality rate of 0% in those age 24 and younger.
A virus that is completely asymptomatic 80% of the time.
A virus that affects those with comorbidities almost exclusively (yes the 41 year-old actor smoked).
The fans and staff are at infinitely more risk than the players. If they don't go home to someone immunocompromised (think Nate Solder) there is very little risk.
Ask yourself why all we hear about now is "cases".
Also, if you think this is bad, especially for my NY area friends that hear "Houston is sooooo bad" just go to indeed.com and see who's hiring nurses. Houston isn't.
Hospitals are furloughing nurses, and staffs are twiddling their thumbs.
Google Search Mixed Messages, LOL - ( New Window )
I live in Tampa, which is 100% a hot spot and that will be easily verifiable with an internet search.
Hospitals are furloughing staff because outpatient and elective surgeries are postponed so resources can be shifted to Covid cases. It's not because things Actually Wonderful and there's no more need for medical professionals. The ways you're looking at this is off.
And some of the people being furloughed are medically high risk so they're being sent home to avoid infection.
Since outpatient surgeries were postponed, she is twiddling her thumbs. Her choices were either agree to screen and test COVID patients because they're understaffed, or be furloughed. As a type 1 diabetic, she's high-risk. So she took a furlough.
When people are still comparing this to the flu, I worry I am going to injure myself rolling my eyes.
It's not the fucking flu.
What an old boring statement.
Pal, nothing is something else. It's like if someone saw a dessert menu with a 600 calorie slice of cake and a 400 calorie slice of pie and said "I think the cake has more calories than the pie, but I know my diet has room for a slice of pie every now and again, so I wonder if cake is okay too." But Neil thinks its really cool to swing in all the time and scream "BRO, CAKE IS NOT PIE."
Yes, obviously, there would be no point in comparing two things if they were the same. The reason we compare it is because they are comparable. So of course you can compare Covid to Flu - it is probably about half an order of magnitude more deadly (3-4x) than a bad flu season.
You can actually also compare it to the common cold, which is also caused by coronaviruses. You know how much you can compare it? So much that your existing immune system is likely boosted by the recency of a coronavirus cold you may have contracted.
When people are still comparing this to the flu, I worry I am going to injure myself rolling my eyes.
It's not the fucking flu.
What an old boring statement.
Pal, nothing is something else. It's like if someone saw a dessert menu with a 600 calorie slice of cake and a 400 calorie slice of pie and said "I think the cake has more calories than the pie, but I know my diet has room for a slice of pie every now and again, so I wonder if cake is okay too." But Neil thinks its really cool to swing in all the time and scream "BRO, CAKE IS NOT PIE."
Yes, obviously, there would be no point in comparing two things if they were the same. The reason we compare it is because they are comparable. So of course you can compare Covid to Flu - it is probably about half an order of magnitude more deadly (3-4x) than a bad flu season.
You can actually also compare it to the common cold, which is also caused by coronaviruses. You know how much you can compare it? So much that your existing immune system is likely boosted by the recency of a coronavirus cold you may have contracted.
to have significant morbidity aspects (that appear to be growing) would cause more consternation among health experts and regular people than an annual virus that we seem to have a decent grasp on, for short- and long-term impacts.?
A novel virus:
with a mortality rate of 0% in those age 24 and younger.
A virus that is completely asymptomatic 80% of the time.
A virus that affects those with comorbidities almost exclusively (yes the 41 year-old actor smoked).
The fans and staff are at infinitely more risk than the players. If they don't go home to someone immunocompromised (think Nate Solder) there is very little risk.
Ask yourself why all we hear about now is "cases".
Also, if you think this is bad, especially for my NY area friends that hear "Houston is sooooo bad" just go to indeed.com and see who's hiring nurses. Houston isn't.
Hospitals are furloughing nurses, and staffs are twiddling their thumbs.
Google Search Mixed Messages, LOL - ( New Window )
I live in Tampa, which is 100% a hot spot and that will be easily verifiable with an internet search.
Hospitals are furloughing staff because outpatient and elective surgeries are postponed so resources can be shifted to Covid cases. It's not because things Actually Wonderful and there's no more need for medical professionals. The ways you're looking at this is off.
And some of the people being furloughed are medically high risk so they're being sent home to avoid infection.
of course I support your wife's decision to protect herself, but I think your information about the problem in the medical system is just incorrect.
Tampa is in Hillsborough County. At the link below you can see the situation. As of today, in Hillsborough county covid patients occupy 394 hospital beds, non-covid patients occupy 2,907 beds, and 548 beds are empty. That's ~85% capacity utilization, with covid patients making up just a tick over 10% of all patients, and this is while the pandemic is clearly on the down slope in Florida. This is a hospital operating below normal capacity utilization to solve a resource problem it doesn't have.
And this is in one of the "hottest" spots in the country. Link - ( New Window )
Also, I'm not sure where you're getting 3-4x more deadly from. Try 10x. It's closer to that.
We have a flu vaccine each year and approved treatments for the flu. We have neither for COVID as it stands right now.
Quote:
A column Trusted Sourceprinted in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) on May 14 noted that flu deaths and COVID-19 deaths are not even reported the same way.
The column written by Dr. Jeremy Samuel Faust, MS, an emergency medicine specialist affiliated with Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Massachusetts, states that flu deaths are estimated while COVID-19 deaths are confirmed cases.
He notes that during mid-April the “counted deaths” for COVID-19 in the United States were around 15,000 per week. During a typical “peak week” for the flu, the “counted deaths” are about 750.
Faust concludes that COVID-19 deaths are actually anywhere from 10 times to 44 times the number of influenza fatalities.
If you're still comparing this to the flu, you lost the pack about 6 months ago. It has long been established that it's a worthless comparison because there are several key differences.
Sure, you could continue to force compare them - but it isn't serving much of a purpose.
It's all well and good to cite total hospital beds, and the fact that
Except, of course, the national average hospital bed utilization is between 49% (2019; differences between rural and urban) and 61% (2012). So, 85% is a significant increase.
And, of course, given that hospitals typically operate at the maximum number of beds per staffer (typically measured by RNs) during most times, this indicates the potential for significant staffing shortages (that we are seeing met by growing demand for travel nurses).
So, not sure why 85%, with ~10% being COVID patients, is a win.
When people are still comparing this to the flu, I worry I am going to injure myself rolling my eyes.
It's not the fucking flu.
What an old boring statement.
Pal, nothing is something else. It's like if someone saw a dessert menu with a 600 calorie slice of cake and a 400 calorie slice of pie and said "I think the cake has more calories than the pie, but I know my diet has room for a slice of pie every now and again, so I wonder if cake is okay too." But Neil thinks its really cool to swing in all the time and scream "BRO, CAKE IS NOT PIE."
Yes, obviously, there would be no point in comparing two things if they were the same. The reason we compare it is because they are comparable. So of course you can compare Covid to Flu - it is probably about half an order of magnitude more deadly (3-4x) than a bad flu season.
You can actually also compare it to the common cold, which is also caused by coronaviruses. You know how much you can compare it? So much that your existing immune system is likely boosted by the recency of a coronavirus cold you may have contracted.
"The reason we compare it is because they are comparable"
You lose me there. They're not.
Do better.
You can compare an elephant to a horse. "While both are mammals, the mature elephant is larger than the mature horse." Specifically, you can say "The median elephant weighs more than the median horse."
You can compare pancreatic cancer to colon cancer. "Pancreatic cancer is typically more deadly than colon cancer." Specifically, you can say "The 5-year survival rate of a patient with Stage 3 colon cancer exceeds that of Stage 3 pancreatic cancer."
What the hell does it mean to say you can't compare things? I can compare a banana to the Eiffel Tower. "A banana is much more delicious than the Eiffel Tower, and usually more yellow."
So obviously you can compare Covid to the flu. You can say "Covid is more deadly than even bad flus which have recently struck our population. The best evidence says it is roughly 3-5x more deadly."
People who say you can't compare them want to shut down debate and not be confronted with hypocrisy because they would never, for example, forbid their father from coming to visit his grandkids for 6+ monthsover a flu.
MAYBE you are among the very few people who have calibrated their opinions so precisely that you can affirmatively say "Yes, I would tell my grandfather to fly on a plane if a disease were circulating with a 1/1000 mortality rate, but I would tell him to definitely NOT fly on the plane if there were a disease circulating with a 4/1000 mortality rate."
If so, you are the exception, but the fact you pretend to not understand how to compare two things makes me feel that's not the case.
Again, if you want to compare the flu to COVID-19, you must
Also, I'm not sure where you're getting 3-4x more deadly from. Try 10x. It's closer to that.
We have a flu vaccine each year and approved treatments for the flu. We have neither for COVID as it stands right now.
Quote:
A column Trusted Sourceprinted in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) on May 14 noted that flu deaths and COVID-19 deaths are not even reported the same way.
The column written by Dr. Jeremy Samuel Faust, MS, an emergency medicine specialist affiliated with Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Massachusetts, states that flu deaths are estimated while COVID-19 deaths are confirmed cases.
He notes that during mid-April the “counted deaths” for COVID-19 in the United States were around 15,000 per week. During a typical “peak week” for the flu, the “counted deaths” are about 750.
Faust concludes that COVID-19 deaths are actually anywhere from 10 times to 44 times the number of influenza fatalities.
If you're still comparing this to the flu, you lost the pack about 6 months ago. It has long been established that it's a worthless comparison because there are several key differences.
Sure, you could continue to force compare them - but it isn't serving much of a purpose.
I'm sorry, when you say we have a treatment for the flu but not for covid (WRRRRRONG! remdesivir is an approved treatment getting excellent results), or that there could be up to 44x as many covid fatalities as flu fatalities (WRRRRRONG! as flu typically kills about 40-50k people a year, that would mean 2mm people had died of COVID as of May 14... NOPE!), aren't you... um.... COMPARING covid and the flu?
Also, I'm not sure where you're getting 3-4x more deadly from. Try 10x. It's closer to that.
We have a flu vaccine each year and approved treatments for the flu. We have neither for COVID as it stands right now.
Quote:
A column Trusted Sourceprinted in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) on May 14 noted that flu deaths and COVID-19 deaths are not even reported the same way.
The column written by Dr. Jeremy Samuel Faust, MS, an emergency medicine specialist affiliated with Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Massachusetts, states that flu deaths are estimated while COVID-19 deaths are confirmed cases.
He notes that during mid-April the “counted deaths” for COVID-19 in the United States were around 15,000 per week. During a typical “peak week” for the flu, the “counted deaths” are about 750.
Faust concludes that COVID-19 deaths are actually anywhere from 10 times to 44 times the number of influenza fatalities.
If you're still comparing this to the flu, you lost the pack about 6 months ago. It has long been established that it's a worthless comparison because there are several key differences.
Sure, you could continue to force compare them - but it isn't serving much of a purpose.
I'm sorry, when you say we have a treatment for the flu but not for covid (WRRRRRONG! remdesivir is an approved treatment getting excellent results), or that there could be up to 44x as many covid fatalities as flu fatalities (WRRRRRONG! as flu typically kills about 40-50k people a year, that would mean 2mm people had died of COVID as of May 14... NOPE!), aren't you... um.... COMPARING covid and the flu?
in the interest of being accurate, remdesivir is not "approved" but it is "authorized" and everyone in the medical community will tell you the results are excellent.
followed all sports on this. Are there any examples of any athletes suffering permanent damage? I don't recall seeing any.
I don't know that anyone can truly know the answer to that question at this point. Only time will give us the proper perspective to accurately answer that.
Remdesivir, while promising, has some issues. Notably related
to current way to treat (notably it's mainly delivered via IV, which is often farther in the progression of COVID than optimal, at least based on study results and Gilead announcements of unpublished findings); the cost; and the limited supply.
Also, I'm not sure where you're getting 3-4x more deadly from. Try 10x. It's closer to that.
We have a flu vaccine each year and approved treatments for the flu. We have neither for COVID as it stands right now.
Quote:
A column Trusted Sourceprinted in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) on May 14 noted that flu deaths and COVID-19 deaths are not even reported the same way.
The column written by Dr. Jeremy Samuel Faust, MS, an emergency medicine specialist affiliated with Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Massachusetts, states that flu deaths are estimated while COVID-19 deaths are confirmed cases.
He notes that during mid-April the “counted deaths” for COVID-19 in the United States were around 15,000 per week. During a typical “peak week” for the flu, the “counted deaths” are about 750.
Faust concludes that COVID-19 deaths are actually anywhere from 10 times to 44 times the number of influenza fatalities.
If you're still comparing this to the flu, you lost the pack about 6 months ago. It has long been established that it's a worthless comparison because there are several key differences.
Sure, you could continue to force compare them - but it isn't serving much of a purpose.
I'm sorry, when you say we have a treatment for the flu but not for covid (WRRRRRONG! remdesivir is an approved treatment getting excellent results), or that there could be up to 44x as many covid fatalities as flu fatalities (WRRRRRONG! as flu typically kills about 40-50k people a year, that would mean 2mm people had died of COVID as of May 14... NOPE!), aren't you... um.... COMPARING covid and the flu?
What was your prior handle? Your childish and irritating posting style seems familiar.
Anyway, you're off on Remdesivir having "excellent results" - the results have been promising in some cases. Not all. And the results are mixed in other instances. You also left out this key detail while you were blowing so much hot air into what you seemed to think was a "gotcha" clapback.
Quote:
Currently, Remdesivir is only available to hospitalized patients at certain institutions who have the medication available, or through a clinical trial. However, the results of these trials will not be available for months.
This is right on the CDC website.
Quote:
While remdesivir is an antiviral agent that is being explored as a treatment for COVID-19 and is available under an Emergency Use Authorization (EUA), there are currently no drugs or other therapeutics approved by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) to prevent or treat COVID-19. Studies are in progress to learn more.
Comparing the flu and COVID is like comparing a QB to a DE. They're both football players, but other than that, they don't have a whole lot in common.
The flu is a respiratory virus. COVID is not the same. Some patients have developed blood clots in the veins and arteries of the lungs, heart, legs or brain and some children have developed MIS-C from COVID.
We have decades upon decades of flu data and research. We have so much less when it comes to this.
So again, compare them if you want to look for a way to diminish COVID and call it 'just a cold' or 'just the flu' - but when there are so many key differences and unknowns involved, it's an exercise in futility.
COVID should be treated like COVID as we continue to learn more and collect more data.
Also, the link on hospital beds isn't proving what you think it is. I noticed you also conveniently left out the part where 398 ICU beds were occupied with just 42 left available.
Wonder why...
Probably because it would have diminished your point.
Because we want to compare COVID with the flu, let's look beyond
mortality or hospital bed usage, since those are not actually correct indicators of the severity of the disease.
Let's quantify the healthcare cost differences in just one county in America: the one that was brought up.
I'm going to underestimate everything, but the "cost-savings" per day of an unfilled normal hospital bed is above $200, while for an unfilled ICU bed it is above $400. The average occupancy rate for ICU beds is normally around 68%. For regular hospital beds, its around 49%. I'm only going to focus on ICU bed fills.
So, these estimates are going to be much lower than they should be. I'm also going to assume that the average fills for hospital beds are all going to the flu (again, provides an underestimate). Using August 8th data.
So, the cost INCREASES per day during the pandemic for ICU's in one county are an additional $7,629 per day for COVID ICU beds; over the duration of the illness (in excess of the average ICU entry), this is $38,150 per illness per day.
Just over the past 2 weeks, the excess cost of COVID bed fills in one county is $534,095.
Hillsbrough is the 27th largest county population. Let's assume that these COVID costs are just found in Hillsbrough, and the larger counties ONLY, just over the past 2 weeks. You know what the economic cost of COVID is, over flu?
Over $14 million. In 2 weeks. Just in ICU beds. Just in 27 counties (over 3,000 in America).
Now, mind you, if you start extending the timeline of COVID, plus
place more realistic excess costs of COVID treatment (instead of $400 per day per ICU bed, it would be closer to 3-4x that), you are looking at 9 figure costs...
And that's mostly warm weather months with dramatic action being taken globally to mitigate. I mean, doesn't that argument become farcical right there?
1) This flu vs. COVID argument should have been over among time ago.
2) So much still unknown. So many theories and guesses have been debunked, proven wrong, etc. constantly. So, why or how anyone can say with confidence what the long term effects are or will be is beyond me.
3) Re #2: the answer can be different for every person.
4) I can tell you I had a mild case. But,the initial symptoms lingered for 4 weeks, not 2. And, now, after testing negative over 6 weeks ago, I still wake up every morning and have to think about how my breathing is. Think about that. How often do you think about your breathing? Now,think about an athlete who is used to going all out against equally fast, strong, and talented guys. Having that in the back of your mind is not good.
RE: seriously when did the flu kill 150-200k ppl in a span of ~5 months?
And that's mostly warm weather months with dramatic action being taken globally to mitigate. I mean, doesn't that argument become farcical right there?
It should!
But, for folks like we have in this thread, welp...
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there are 330 million Americans and 3 million per year die from various causes. All tragic. The show will and should go on for the younger, healthier population - your temper tantrums aside.
the #1 killer of Americans right now is CoVid. I'm not willing to *sacrifice* anyone.
I find this line of thinking to be craven and disgusting. Young people spread it same as old.
How many kids have died from Covid under 16? How many kids are being killed in our cities from senseless shootings?
I do not understand all this arguing over the players. They are making a choice to play or not play and if they choose not they are still being paid more than the vast majority of people in the workforce. Any other profession being given this choice?
lol. Deal with it. It is what it is.
a little IMO.
You don't know that.
A few months ago, the most common thinking on Covid was that it was a respiratory disease. Now we know that it's vascular with strong respiratory symptoms.
This virus is not even a year old yet. Imagine what else we'll know with the benefit of time.
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there are 330 million Americans and 3 million per year die from various causes. All tragic. The show will and should go on for the younger, healthier population - your temper tantrums aside.
the #1 killer of Americans right now is CoVid. I'm not willing to *sacrifice* anyone.
That is absolutely false, and its not even close. I respect a lot of people's opinions on this board about taking a cautious approach - Bill L, kicker, CiP and many others - you dont fall in that camp. You're completely paranoid and devoid of facts and data in your takes.
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In comment 14944865 MetsAreBack said:
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there are 330 million Americans and 3 million per year die from various causes. All tragic. The show will and should go on for the younger, healthier population - your temper tantrums aside.
the #1 killer of Americans right now is CoVid. I'm not willing to *sacrifice* anyone.
That is absolutely false, and its not even close. I respect a lot of people's opinions on this board about taking a cautious approach - Bill L, kicker, CiP and many others - you dont fall in that camp. You're completely paranoid and devoid of facts and data in your takes.
I have a household with hospital staff in it, family and friends are healthcare professionals. None of them take it as lightly as your reckless stance.
Why not try to have a football season? The NBA/NHL has been going very well. MLB has gone well aside of 2 outbreaks.
You continuously look to expand the discussion beyond the scope of this thread and what’s allowed on BBI. Your deferral to authority in the ‘Medical’ household is noted - I know doctors too amazing I know! - and one could easily argue all professional sports leagues have reopened this year so that means they’re all ‘reckless’ in your view... moving on
You remain way way to high level on this subject matter. Of course it’s a serious matter especially for those at higher age and with underlying health issues. We all knew that. Anything else from 5 Months ago to bring to the debate?
Let’s get back on topic - please support your stance that Daniel Jones will need not one but two lung transplants if he plays this season. Case studies, age based metrics, cold hard statistics, anything other than your gutt?
Separately, glad upon further your review covid went from the biggest killer in the US to after called on that ... it might be in the top 3. We’re making progress on your bullshit.
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In comment 14944214 YAJ2112 said:
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In the off-season. No way to know who would get it if there's a season vs not.
This is a good point. One could argue they might be safer in the controlled environment.
The problem isn't the environment insomuch as the sport itself. Look how it's spreading in MLB - the most minimal contact major sport. NFL linemen literally wrestle, sweat, breathe heavily, yell and spit all over one another on every single play. If one lineman has it, 100% certainty both lines will have it by game's end.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. All the books we read and movies we saw about Pandemic's - I don't recall a single story that had this *damn the torpedoes* approach.
2020 sucks.
Think back on those movies. Maybe you’re thinking of 28 days later, when in a month a virus turned most of a city into zombies. Maybe you’re thinking of Contagion, where 2.5mm people in the USA die from the disease, and 25% of people who catch it die, regardless of age, in a matter of days. Or maybe it is some other movie.
Did any of those pandemic movies terrify you with a pandemic that killed just 4,000 total people under 45 over six months, and which at least 99.7% of people survive and which appears to have already started to burn out in way more than half the country?
What a stupid question.
I could get on an even higher horse than yours and ask why you think it’s acceptable to play during any flu season. Yes, COVID is more deadly than flu, but flu is still deadly. So, how many people are you willing to risk during the next ordinary flu season? Can you name names?
This ignores the fact that what, 30% of NYC and now 20% of even places like Arizona are testing positive for antibodies. And those numbers are 1) undercounting Bc of T cell rather than antibody immunity and 2) only going up every day. So the idea that a Cardinals player (or anyone) has a real method of avoiding the disease is ludicrous. Yes, you can lock yourself at home like my 94yo grandmother does, but if you are leaving your house much at all you are at roughly the same risk of contracting covid at some point by year end as by playing football.
Dabo Swinney: "He’s just nowhere near where he needs to be to play football."
Story is now updated, including this quote from Dabo Swinney: "He had a hard time when he got back with just his breathing... that’s a combination of COVID, his strep throat, being a little heavy."
Looks like even younger and healthier athletes are not immune from getting really sick. Just wait until a huge olineman or dlineman gets really sick in the NFL where they are older.
Clemson star Xavier Thomas will miss most of the 2020 season after a battle with COVID-19, strep throat. - ( New Window )
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and can you name names?
What a stupid question.
I could get on an even higher horse than yours and ask why you think it’s acceptable to play during any flu season. Yes, COVID is more deadly than flu, but flu is still deadly. So, how many people are you willing to risk during the next ordinary flu season? Can you name names?
This ignores the fact that what, 30% of NYC and now 20% of even places like Arizona are testing positive for antibodies. And those numbers are 1) undercounting Bc of T cell rather than antibody immunity and 2) only going up every day. So the idea that a Cardinals player (or anyone) has a real method of avoiding the disease is ludicrous. Yes, you can lock yourself at home like my 94yo grandmother does, but if you are leaving your house much at all you are at roughly the same risk of contracting covid at some point by year end as by playing football.
I'd rebut but I feel like it would be too much effort to explain to you what the letter T means, much less a T cell.
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In comment 14944866 Bill L said:
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and can you name names?
What a stupid question.
I could get on an even higher horse than yours and ask why you think it’s acceptable to play during any flu season. Yes, COVID is more deadly than flu, but flu is still deadly. So, how many people are you willing to risk during the next ordinary flu season? Can you name names?
This ignores the fact that what, 30% of NYC and now 20% of even places like Arizona are testing positive for antibodies. And those numbers are 1) undercounting Bc of T cell rather than antibody immunity and 2) only going up every day. So the idea that a Cardinals player (or anyone) has a real method of avoiding the disease is ludicrous. Yes, you can lock yourself at home like my 94yo grandmother does, but if you are leaving your house much at all you are at roughly the same risk of contracting covid at some point by year end as by playing football.
I'd rebut but I feel like it would be too much effort to explain to you what the letter T means, much less a T cell.
Ooof. :)
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In comment 14944866 Bill L said:
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and can you name names?
What a stupid question.
I could get on an even higher horse than yours and ask why you think it’s acceptable to play during any flu season. Yes, COVID is more deadly than flu, but flu is still deadly. So, how many people are you willing to risk during the next ordinary flu season? Can you name names?
This ignores the fact that what, 30% of NYC and now 20% of even places like Arizona are testing positive for antibodies. And those numbers are 1) undercounting Bc of T cell rather than antibody immunity and 2) only going up every day. So the idea that a Cardinals player (or anyone) has a real method of avoiding the disease is ludicrous. Yes, you can lock yourself at home like my 94yo grandmother does, but if you are leaving your house much at all you are at roughly the same risk of contracting covid at some point by year end as by playing football.
I'd rebut but I feel like it would be too much effort to explain to you what the letter T means, much less a T cell.
Oh dear, how will I ever recover from such a sick burn.
I’ll ask it directly: people die from flu. Was it immoral for MJ to play in the “flu game”?
For people of NFL age, flu probably kills at about the same rate as covid, but let’s say it’s 3x higher. Have you calibrated your risk threshold so precisely that covid (1 in 3k dies let’s say) breaches it but flu (1 in 10k let’s say) does not? How did you get there?
And one step further: Why should pro football players be more scared of covid that CTE this year? Which do you think will impair more NFL players long term existence if they played this year? Hint: it’s CTE by multiple orders of magnitude.
We're supposed to all be in this together. We look at the rest of the industrialized world, we look right over the border at Canada and see how collectively the disease can be brought under control and how economies can recover.
And we refuse to do it. Because as I've been told "The show will and should go on for the younger, healthier population".
It's not the fucking flu.
We're supposed to all be in this together. We look at the rest of the industrialized world, we look right over the border at Canada and see how collectively the disease can be brought under control and how economies can recover.
And we refuse to do it. Because as I've been told "The show will and should go on for the younger, healthier population".
I guess i missed the part where sports ARENT being played in other countries as you suggest we do here. I guess i missed the part where other countries are still in quarantine and under strict stay-at-home orders, where younger healthier people are not allowed to go to work and earn an income as you suggest football players do in this thread.
You want to suggest we all wear masks when out - I'm all for it, i do it myself.
You want to suggest players not spend time with their parents and grand parents during the season given they'll be at higher risk of spread for a few months - I agree
But instead you've come on here and your proposed solution is... no season, no income... and that if we play, Daniel Jones will likely require two lung transplants.... its just crazy embellishment and thinking you get to decide who gets to work and make money and who doesnt is just incredibly controlling.
A novel virus:
with a mortality rate of 0% in those age 24 and younger.
A virus that is completely asymptomatic 80% of the time.
A virus that affects those with comorbidities almost exclusively (yes the 41 year-old actor smoked).
The fans and staff are at infinitely more risk than the players. If they don't go home to someone immunocompromised (think Nate Solder) there is very little risk.
Ask yourself why all we hear about now is "cases".
Also, if you think this is bad, especially for my NY area friends that hear "Houston is sooooo bad" just go to indeed.com and see who's hiring nurses. Houston isn't.
Hospitals are furloughing nurses, and staffs are twiddling their thumbs.
Google Search Mixed Messages, LOL - ( New Window )
https://www.click2houston.com/news/local/2020/07/10/harris-health-system-requests-traveling-nurses-to-help-fight-covid-19-surge/
(You can also click on the Houston Chronicle, which details hundreds of travel nurses flooding into Houston).
Beyond that, the rest of your post is illogical and not worth responding to. But good job; you are able to link your Google search.
At this point, a major goal should be managing caseloads currently, doing what we can at low cost (mask mandates, encouraging social distancing, limiting large gatherings), and preparing for the potential for a nasty fall/winter.
Unfortunately, the biggest issue coming up will be staff burnout in healthcare facilities, and how we manage that.
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But instead you've come on here and your proposed solution is... no season, no income... and that if we play, Daniel Jones will likely require two lung transplants.... its just crazy embellishment and thinking you get to decide who gets to work and make money and who doesnt is just incredibly controlling.
My opinion is that it's folly to do what the NFL is trying to for a variety of obvious reasons - I'm fine with regional opening on a phased approach nationwide for ALL jobs. The Northeast is currently in good shape, most of the rest of the country is not. Yes, training camp and games in the Meadowlands are low CoVid risk TODAY.
The NFL is an enormous enterprise made up of heavily staffed franchises that travel to and from regions all over the country. EXACTLY what you DO NOT need during a PANDEMIC.
You want to keep football in safe regions, fine. NFL (and MLB) IMO should just make it an exhibition season since there is no way to tell how many games will actually be completed and which teams will make it through a CoVid impacted season. Teams have already lost players who are opting out. MLB teams already cancelling stretches of schedule. 56 NFL players have contracted CoVid to date, and we haven't played a single snap.
*I* don't get to determine who gets to work or play and who doesn't.
CoVid does.
Also, if you think this is bad, especially for my NY area friends that hear "Houston is sooooo bad" just go to indeed.com and see who's hiring nurses. Houston isn't.
Hospitals are furloughing nurses, and staffs are twiddling their thumbs.
Google Search Mixed Messages, LOL - ( New Window )
FYI - in heavily impacted area's, hospital and healthcare layoffs and furloughs are common because MUCH of what healthcare does is SHUT DOWN. No elective surgery, in-house offices, rehab, etc are shut down. The Hospital's focus becomes almost ENTIRELY CoVid and ER.
So what you're seeing in Houston is actually status quo, at least in hard hit area's. Here, upstate NY hospitals have returned to their normal pace for the most part but back in April were experiencing similar functional shutdowns and layoffs.
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to have significant morbidity aspects (that appear to be growing) would cause more consternation among health experts and regular people than an annual virus that we seem to have a decent grasp on, for short- and long-term impacts.?
A novel virus:
with a mortality rate of 0% in those age 24 and younger.
A virus that is completely asymptomatic 80% of the time.
A virus that affects those with comorbidities almost exclusively (yes the 41 year-old actor smoked).
The fans and staff are at infinitely more risk than the players. If they don't go home to someone immunocompromised (think Nate Solder) there is very little risk.
Ask yourself why all we hear about now is "cases".
Also, if you think this is bad, especially for my NY area friends that hear "Houston is sooooo bad" just go to indeed.com and see who's hiring nurses. Houston isn't.
Hospitals are furloughing nurses, and staffs are twiddling their thumbs.
Google Search Mixed Messages, LOL - ( New Window )
I live in Tampa, which is 100% a hot spot and that will be easily verifiable with an internet search.
Hospitals are furloughing staff because outpatient and elective surgeries are postponed so resources can be shifted to Covid cases. It's not because things Actually Wonderful and there's no more need for medical professionals. The ways you're looking at this is off.
And some of the people being furloughed are medically high risk so they're being sent home to avoid infection.
Since outpatient surgeries were postponed, she is twiddling her thumbs. Her choices were either agree to screen and test COVID patients because they're understaffed, or be furloughed. As a type 1 diabetic, she's high-risk. So she took a furlough.
It's not the fucking flu.
What an old boring statement.
Pal, nothing is something else. It's like if someone saw a dessert menu with a 600 calorie slice of cake and a 400 calorie slice of pie and said "I think the cake has more calories than the pie, but I know my diet has room for a slice of pie every now and again, so I wonder if cake is okay too." But Neil thinks its really cool to swing in all the time and scream "BRO, CAKE IS NOT PIE."
Yes, obviously, there would be no point in comparing two things if they were the same. The reason we compare it is because they are comparable. So of course you can compare Covid to Flu - it is probably about half an order of magnitude more deadly (3-4x) than a bad flu season.
You can actually also compare it to the common cold, which is also caused by coronaviruses. You know how much you can compare it? So much that your existing immune system is likely boosted by the recency of a coronavirus cold you may have contracted.
https://www.livescience.com/common-cold-coronaviruses-t-cells-covid-19-immunity.html
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When people are still comparing this to the flu, I worry I am going to injure myself rolling my eyes.
It's not the fucking flu.
What an old boring statement.
Pal, nothing is something else. It's like if someone saw a dessert menu with a 600 calorie slice of cake and a 400 calorie slice of pie and said "I think the cake has more calories than the pie, but I know my diet has room for a slice of pie every now and again, so I wonder if cake is okay too." But Neil thinks its really cool to swing in all the time and scream "BRO, CAKE IS NOT PIE."
Yes, obviously, there would be no point in comparing two things if they were the same. The reason we compare it is because they are comparable. So of course you can compare Covid to Flu - it is probably about half an order of magnitude more deadly (3-4x) than a bad flu season.
You can actually also compare it to the common cold, which is also caused by coronaviruses. You know how much you can compare it? So much that your existing immune system is likely boosted by the recency of a coronavirus cold you may have contracted.
https://www.livescience.com/common-cold-coronaviruses-t-cells-covid-19-immunity.html
"The reason we compare it is because they are comparable"
You lose me there. They're not.
Do better.
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In comment 14945469 kicker said:
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to have significant morbidity aspects (that appear to be growing) would cause more consternation among health experts and regular people than an annual virus that we seem to have a decent grasp on, for short- and long-term impacts.?
A novel virus:
with a mortality rate of 0% in those age 24 and younger.
A virus that is completely asymptomatic 80% of the time.
A virus that affects those with comorbidities almost exclusively (yes the 41 year-old actor smoked).
The fans and staff are at infinitely more risk than the players. If they don't go home to someone immunocompromised (think Nate Solder) there is very little risk.
Ask yourself why all we hear about now is "cases".
Also, if you think this is bad, especially for my NY area friends that hear "Houston is sooooo bad" just go to indeed.com and see who's hiring nurses. Houston isn't.
Hospitals are furloughing nurses, and staffs are twiddling their thumbs.
Google Search Mixed Messages, LOL - ( New Window )
I live in Tampa, which is 100% a hot spot and that will be easily verifiable with an internet search.
Hospitals are furloughing staff because outpatient and elective surgeries are postponed so resources can be shifted to Covid cases. It's not because things Actually Wonderful and there's no more need for medical professionals. The ways you're looking at this is off.
And some of the people being furloughed are medically high risk so they're being sent home to avoid infection.
of course I support your wife's decision to protect herself, but I think your information about the problem in the medical system is just incorrect.
Tampa is in Hillsborough County. At the link below you can see the situation. As of today, in Hillsborough county covid patients occupy 394 hospital beds, non-covid patients occupy 2,907 beds, and 548 beds are empty. That's ~85% capacity utilization, with covid patients making up just a tick over 10% of all patients, and this is while the pandemic is clearly on the down slope in Florida. This is a hospital operating below normal capacity utilization to solve a resource problem it doesn't have.
And this is in one of the "hottest" spots in the country.
Link - ( New Window )
We have a flu vaccine each year and approved treatments for the flu. We have neither for COVID as it stands right now.
The column written by Dr. Jeremy Samuel Faust, MS, an emergency medicine specialist affiliated with Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Massachusetts, states that flu deaths are estimated while COVID-19 deaths are confirmed cases.
He notes that during mid-April the “counted deaths” for COVID-19 in the United States were around 15,000 per week. During a typical “peak week” for the flu, the “counted deaths” are about 750.
Faust concludes that COVID-19 deaths are actually anywhere from 10 times to 44 times the number of influenza fatalities.
If you're still comparing this to the flu, you lost the pack about 6 months ago. It has long been established that it's a worthless comparison because there are several key differences.
Sure, you could continue to force compare them - but it isn't serving much of a purpose.
Except, of course, the national average hospital bed utilization is between 49% (2019; differences between rural and urban) and 61% (2012). So, 85% is a significant increase.
And, of course, given that hospitals typically operate at the maximum number of beds per staffer (typically measured by RNs) during most times, this indicates the potential for significant staffing shortages (that we are seeing met by growing demand for travel nurses).
So, not sure why 85%, with ~10% being COVID patients, is a win.
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In comment 14945472 arcarsenal said:
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When people are still comparing this to the flu, I worry I am going to injure myself rolling my eyes.
It's not the fucking flu.
What an old boring statement.
Pal, nothing is something else. It's like if someone saw a dessert menu with a 600 calorie slice of cake and a 400 calorie slice of pie and said "I think the cake has more calories than the pie, but I know my diet has room for a slice of pie every now and again, so I wonder if cake is okay too." But Neil thinks its really cool to swing in all the time and scream "BRO, CAKE IS NOT PIE."
Yes, obviously, there would be no point in comparing two things if they were the same. The reason we compare it is because they are comparable. So of course you can compare Covid to Flu - it is probably about half an order of magnitude more deadly (3-4x) than a bad flu season.
You can actually also compare it to the common cold, which is also caused by coronaviruses. You know how much you can compare it? So much that your existing immune system is likely boosted by the recency of a coronavirus cold you may have contracted.
https://www.livescience.com/common-cold-coronaviruses-t-cells-covid-19-immunity.html
"The reason we compare it is because they are comparable"
You lose me there. They're not.
Do better.
You can compare an elephant to a horse. "While both are mammals, the mature elephant is larger than the mature horse." Specifically, you can say "The median elephant weighs more than the median horse."
You can compare pancreatic cancer to colon cancer. "Pancreatic cancer is typically more deadly than colon cancer." Specifically, you can say "The 5-year survival rate of a patient with Stage 3 colon cancer exceeds that of Stage 3 pancreatic cancer."
What the hell does it mean to say you can't compare things? I can compare a banana to the Eiffel Tower. "A banana is much more delicious than the Eiffel Tower, and usually more yellow."
So obviously you can compare Covid to the flu. You can say "Covid is more deadly than even bad flus which have recently struck our population. The best evidence says it is roughly 3-5x more deadly."
People who say you can't compare them want to shut down debate and not be confronted with hypocrisy because they would never, for example, forbid their father from coming to visit his grandkids for 6+ monthsover a flu.
MAYBE you are among the very few people who have calibrated their opinions so precisely that you can affirmatively say "Yes, I would tell my grandfather to fly on a plane if a disease were circulating with a 1/1000 mortality rate, but I would tell him to definitely NOT fly on the plane if there were a disease circulating with a 4/1000 mortality rate."
If so, you are the exception, but the fact you pretend to not understand how to compare two things makes me feel that's not the case.
100% agreed.
We have a flu vaccine each year and approved treatments for the flu. We have neither for COVID as it stands right now.
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A column Trusted Sourceprinted in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) on May 14 noted that flu deaths and COVID-19 deaths are not even reported the same way.
The column written by Dr. Jeremy Samuel Faust, MS, an emergency medicine specialist affiliated with Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Massachusetts, states that flu deaths are estimated while COVID-19 deaths are confirmed cases.
He notes that during mid-April the “counted deaths” for COVID-19 in the United States were around 15,000 per week. During a typical “peak week” for the flu, the “counted deaths” are about 750.
Faust concludes that COVID-19 deaths are actually anywhere from 10 times to 44 times the number of influenza fatalities.
If you're still comparing this to the flu, you lost the pack about 6 months ago. It has long been established that it's a worthless comparison because there are several key differences.
Sure, you could continue to force compare them - but it isn't serving much of a purpose.
I'm sorry, when you say we have a treatment for the flu but not for covid (WRRRRRONG! remdesivir is an approved treatment getting excellent results), or that there could be up to 44x as many covid fatalities as flu fatalities (WRRRRRONG! as flu typically kills about 40-50k people a year, that would mean 2mm people had died of COVID as of May 14... NOPE!), aren't you... um.... COMPARING covid and the flu?
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Also, I'm not sure where you're getting 3-4x more deadly from. Try 10x. It's closer to that.
We have a flu vaccine each year and approved treatments for the flu. We have neither for COVID as it stands right now.
Quote:
A column Trusted Sourceprinted in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) on May 14 noted that flu deaths and COVID-19 deaths are not even reported the same way.
The column written by Dr. Jeremy Samuel Faust, MS, an emergency medicine specialist affiliated with Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Massachusetts, states that flu deaths are estimated while COVID-19 deaths are confirmed cases.
He notes that during mid-April the “counted deaths” for COVID-19 in the United States were around 15,000 per week. During a typical “peak week” for the flu, the “counted deaths” are about 750.
Faust concludes that COVID-19 deaths are actually anywhere from 10 times to 44 times the number of influenza fatalities.
If you're still comparing this to the flu, you lost the pack about 6 months ago. It has long been established that it's a worthless comparison because there are several key differences.
Sure, you could continue to force compare them - but it isn't serving much of a purpose.
I'm sorry, when you say we have a treatment for the flu but not for covid (WRRRRRONG! remdesivir is an approved treatment getting excellent results), or that there could be up to 44x as many covid fatalities as flu fatalities (WRRRRRONG! as flu typically kills about 40-50k people a year, that would mean 2mm people had died of COVID as of May 14... NOPE!), aren't you... um.... COMPARING covid and the flu?
in the interest of being accurate, remdesivir is not "approved" but it is "authorized" and everyone in the medical community will tell you the results are excellent.
I don't know that anyone can truly know the answer to that question at this point. Only time will give us the proper perspective to accurately answer that.
So a hospital at 85% is quite possibly over 100% their normal operating capacity.
Need total 2019 beds for the comparison.
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Also, I'm not sure where you're getting 3-4x more deadly from. Try 10x. It's closer to that.
We have a flu vaccine each year and approved treatments for the flu. We have neither for COVID as it stands right now.
Quote:
A column Trusted Sourceprinted in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) on May 14 noted that flu deaths and COVID-19 deaths are not even reported the same way.
The column written by Dr. Jeremy Samuel Faust, MS, an emergency medicine specialist affiliated with Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Massachusetts, states that flu deaths are estimated while COVID-19 deaths are confirmed cases.
He notes that during mid-April the “counted deaths” for COVID-19 in the United States were around 15,000 per week. During a typical “peak week” for the flu, the “counted deaths” are about 750.
Faust concludes that COVID-19 deaths are actually anywhere from 10 times to 44 times the number of influenza fatalities.
If you're still comparing this to the flu, you lost the pack about 6 months ago. It has long been established that it's a worthless comparison because there are several key differences.
Sure, you could continue to force compare them - but it isn't serving much of a purpose.
I'm sorry, when you say we have a treatment for the flu but not for covid (WRRRRRONG! remdesivir is an approved treatment getting excellent results), or that there could be up to 44x as many covid fatalities as flu fatalities (WRRRRRONG! as flu typically kills about 40-50k people a year, that would mean 2mm people had died of COVID as of May 14... NOPE!), aren't you... um.... COMPARING covid and the flu?
What was your prior handle? Your childish and irritating posting style seems familiar.
Anyway, you're off on Remdesivir having "excellent results" - the results have been promising in some cases. Not all. And the results are mixed in other instances. You also left out this key detail while you were blowing so much hot air into what you seemed to think was a "gotcha" clapback.
This is right on the CDC website.
Comparing the flu and COVID is like comparing a QB to a DE. They're both football players, but other than that, they don't have a whole lot in common.
The flu is a respiratory virus. COVID is not the same. Some patients have developed blood clots in the veins and arteries of the lungs, heart, legs or brain and some children have developed MIS-C from COVID.
We have decades upon decades of flu data and research. We have so much less when it comes to this.
So again, compare them if you want to look for a way to diminish COVID and call it 'just a cold' or 'just the flu' - but when there are so many key differences and unknowns involved, it's an exercise in futility.
COVID should be treated like COVID as we continue to learn more and collect more data.
Wonder why...
Probably because it would have diminished your point.
Let's quantify the healthcare cost differences in just one county in America: the one that was brought up.
I'm going to underestimate everything, but the "cost-savings" per day of an unfilled normal hospital bed is above $200, while for an unfilled ICU bed it is above $400. The average occupancy rate for ICU beds is normally around 68%. For regular hospital beds, its around 49%. I'm only going to focus on ICU bed fills.
So, these estimates are going to be much lower than they should be. I'm also going to assume that the average fills for hospital beds are all going to the flu (again, provides an underestimate). Using August 8th data.
So, the cost INCREASES per day during the pandemic for ICU's in one county are an additional $7,629 per day for COVID ICU beds; over the duration of the illness (in excess of the average ICU entry), this is $38,150 per illness per day.
Just over the past 2 weeks, the excess cost of COVID bed fills in one county is $534,095.
Hillsbrough is the 27th largest county population. Let's assume that these COVID costs are just found in Hillsbrough, and the larger counties ONLY, just over the past 2 weeks. You know what the economic cost of COVID is, over flu?
Over $14 million. In 2 weeks. Just in ICU beds. Just in 27 counties (over 3,000 in America).
2) So much still unknown. So many theories and guesses have been debunked, proven wrong, etc. constantly. So, why or how anyone can say with confidence what the long term effects are or will be is beyond me.
3) Re #2: the answer can be different for every person.
4) I can tell you I had a mild case. But,the initial symptoms lingered for 4 weeks, not 2. And, now, after testing negative over 6 weeks ago, I still wake up every morning and have to think about how my breathing is. Think about that. How often do you think about your breathing? Now,think about an athlete who is used to going all out against equally fast, strong, and talented guys. Having that in the back of your mind is not good.
It should!
But, for folks like we have in this thread, welp...