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Hypothetical question: Trevor Lawrence

MOOPS : 8/12/2020 2:19 pm
2020 is obviously going to be a season like none before. The Giants are in an extra deep hole because of the new coaching staff, new systems, youthful roster, no preseason games, etc.
Just suppose for a minute we crap the bed bad enough to win the Trevor Lawrence lottery, but Daniel Jones has shown well enough during the year that he undoubtedly has a bright future.
Do you or don't you Trevor? He'd bring a gold mine in trade but is he worth drafting as our future QB and giving up on Daniel?
Strictly hypothetical. Don't stone the messenger.

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Lawrence  
Walnut : 8/12/2020 3:22 pm : link
is a generational prospect like Luck. Have to take the QB. Don't get cute.

Look at Luck - the Colts did nothing to help him but he still got them to multiple divisional rounds and a championship game. Could DJ have done that with the Colts supporting cast? Same thing with the Packers, who've done nothing to help Rogers yet he's gotten them deep into the playoffs many years.

With someone like Jones, you're going to have to really hit on draft picks and FA signings and manage the cap and get lucky to put a good team around him on both sides of the ball. It'll take multiple drafts/FA signings and that's assuming we hit on all of them.

You take him  
Biteymax22 : 8/12/2020 3:24 pm : link
And I'm going to give you a real simple reason why. If we pick first it means unless he got hurt and it was a significant injury, Jones likely either took a step back or showed no improvement at all.

Lawrence is highly regarded enough that I'd forgo giving the Jones the 3rd year in that situation. For the record, I don't think Jones will take a step back and I don't think we'll be in position to draft Lawrence, but I get this is hypothetical.
Draft Penei Sewell or trade back and draft Sewell  
larryflower37 : 8/12/2020 3:31 pm : link
which might be more of a generational talent than Lawerence.
The Giants can truly be set at both tackles for 10 years.
Has anyone looked at the schedule recently?  
Grey Pilgrim : 8/12/2020 3:42 pm : link
We'll have a real shot at picking 1st overall.

jmo
Alright maybe not you  
ghost718 : 8/12/2020 3:45 pm : link
But we should be allowed to stone the Arizona Cardinals and Kingsbury.


You Take TL  
lax counsel : 8/12/2020 3:53 pm : link
He's the best qb prospect in some time, and will grade out that way. Even when he's off hes significantly better than most other qbs. Like another poster said, look at Luck look at Rodgers, those teams were terribly managed and yet were always in the mix. A true elite does that for a team.

For those saying he's not generation what exactly qualifies as that for you at the qb position? Because TL is as good as come out in a long time.
RE: Draft Penei Sewell or trade back and draft Sewell  
Milton : 8/12/2020 4:08 pm : link
In comment 14948534 larryflower37 said:
Quote:
which might be more of a generational talent than Lawerence.
The Giants can truly be set at both tackles for 10 years.

This is the kind of hypothetical that lets you massage the "data points" to suit your personal preference. In my vision of the hypothetical, Lawrence's season upended by the virus so the scouts are left judging him based on his previous two seasons and his interviews. So his status as the #1 overall pick is pretty well cemented, but his sophomore season did signal a mild return to earth compared to his freshman highlights. And this is the QB position we're talking about: "no such thing as a sure thing" is truer of this position than any. A couple or so decades ago I read that Vinny Testeverde was the highest graded QB prospect ever by BLESTO (or maybe it was the other scouting service used by NFL teams) with a perfect 9.0 grade. How did that turn out? None of the top QBs from the past 20+ years was considered a generational talent coming out of school. And the scouting community was divided between Peyton and Leaf, that's how tough it is to project that position.

But it is the QB position we're talking about here, so what it really comes down to is what kind of year does Jones have? This hypothetical is really more about him than it is about Lawrence. Hard to come up with a scenario in which Jones has a good year but the Giants finish with football's worst record, but it's technically possible, especially if the season is cut short and the Giants wind up winning the lottery vs a handful of teams with the same 1-4 record (and maybe the Giants would've been 3-2 if not for missed field goals and extra points).

So in my hypothetical scenario, I agree with Larry. The Giants swing a 3-team trade that gives them the 2nd overall pick plus a boatload more that includes at least one future 1st rounder. And with the 2nd overall pick, the New York Football Giants select Penei Sewell. No better way to follow up Saquon and Daniel than with Andrew and Penei!
RE: You Take TL  
Milton : 8/12/2020 4:16 pm : link
In comment 14948552 lax counsel said:
Quote:
He's the best qb prospect in some time, and will grade out that way. Even when he's off hes significantly better than most other qbs. Like another poster said, look at Luck look at Rodgers, those teams were terribly managed and yet were always in the mix.
Luck is probably the highest graded QB prospect in the last 30 years. Rodgers and Mahomes weren't even the first QBs off the board. Eli was the 1st overall, but Roethlisberger has outperformed him on the field and in the trophy case, and an argument can be made that Rivers has better numbers overall despite the empty shelf. And Peyton was first overall, but nobody was calling him a generational talent. And then there's Brady.

This is about Daniel Jones, not Trevor Lawrence.
Picture the Giants coming out of next year's draft with both...  
Milton : 8/12/2020 4:32 pm : link
Penei Sewell and Creed Humphrey!
Lawrence looked great his  
section125 : 8/12/2020 4:33 pm : link
1st year. He was not the as dominant last year. I would have liked to have seen him this year.

But too many variables in the Giants crapping the bed to say grab the QB. Could be the offense was fine, but defense kept losing games 40-35....
If Jones  
TommyWiseau : 8/12/2020 5:06 pm : link
does not improve, you go Lawrence. If Jones plays well, has this offense running at a good pace and shows some elite skills then you keep him and trade the 1st pick for a kings ransom (multiple firsts from a god awful team).
Lawrence did not  
Lines of Scrimmage : 8/12/2020 5:10 pm : link
look so generational in the Nat'l Champ. game. I think the better question to ask is "can we win a championship with a good all around team around him?"

This staff has a full year to evaluate that question. If they feel he can than keep building a better team. We already know his worth ethic, character, toughness and handling the media will work here. If the answer is no than you move on.

I am of the belief that no QB would have turned the Giants fortunes that greatly with the way the team has drafted and assembled talent the last 7-8 years.

We had a HOF Coach and QB at the end of 2011. Did they both just drop off the cliff?


RE: I don’t see TL as a generational talent.  
cokeduplt : 8/12/2020 5:16 pm : link
In comment 14948494 Giant John said:
Quote:
If Jones has decent/good year we stay the course. Just my view.



Best QB prospect since Peyton, how can u say he’s not generational
BBI seems to use the word "generational" to refer to a player  
LBH15 : 8/12/2020 5:18 pm : link
that only comes around once in a lifetime.

But they seem to use it every 2-3 years.
I think many underestimate how good  
joeinpa : 8/12/2020 7:00 pm : link
Jones can be. I wouldn’t be in favor of moving on from him.
Hmm  
Dukie Dimes : 8/12/2020 7:28 pm : link
The truth of the matter is that NO ONE knows how good Jones or Lawrence could be. Those saying Jones=5-15 and Lawrence=1 for their ceilings have no basis for that statement. The giants will certainly be more informed about jones at the end of year 2 (assuming there is a year 2), but there will be nothing out there on Lawrence for over a year. Unless Jones regresses this year, you definitely trade the pick. If Jones proves his worth, the value of those additional picks is far more meaningful to the organization that another rebuild based on potential alone.
RE: RE: I don’t see TL as a generational talent.  
section125 : 8/12/2020 7:41 pm : link
In comment 14948628 cokeduplt said:
Quote:
In comment 14948494 Giant John said:


Quote:


If Jones has decent/good year we stay the course. Just my view.




Best QB prospect since Peyton, how can u say he’s not generational


Based on what?
You guys never seem to factor in  
Dave on the UWS : 8/12/2020 7:43 pm : link
playing QB in NY. Lawrence hasn’t struck me as the kind of personality that would do well under the microscope here. It’s more than just physical talent. DG was right, it’s a “load”!
This is kinda like, "If your old car breaks down this winter,  
CT Charlie : 8/12/2020 8:42 pm : link
do you repair it or replace it?" It all depends on the nature, severity, and cost of the needed repair.

That said, unless DJ keeps shows no improvement in turnovers, I think the bird-in-the-hand argument for a young QB in NY is a MASSIVE plus for DJ, an Easy-E clone. Trevor Lawrence will probably be excellent that way, too, but... he'll merely be a two-in-the-bush option.
Take Lawrence  
The_Boss : 8/12/2020 8:52 pm : link
Trade Jones, even if it’s for a 2nd or 3rd. Lawrence is going to be generational. I don’t see that with Jones, and I like Jones a good deal.
RE: RE: I don’t see TL as a generational talent.  
Milton : 8/12/2020 9:45 pm : link
In comment 14948628 cokeduplt said:
Quote:
Best QB prospect since Peyton, how can u say he’s not generational
Peyton wasn't a generational talent when he came out. In fact, many preferred Leaf to him. Lawrence is the best QB prospect since Luck. How many Super Bowls did Luck win compared to all the non-generational talents that came before and after him?
RE: Take Lawrence  
section125 : 8/12/2020 9:52 pm : link
In comment 14948729 The_Boss said:
Quote:
Trade Jones, even if it’s for a 2nd or 3rd. Lawrence is going to be generational. I don’t see that with Jones, and I like Jones a good deal.


I would need to see him another year. He is very good, no doubt. But certainly not generational last year.
Well, this very question is why I wanted DE Josh Allen  
sb from NYT Forum : 8/13/2020 1:40 am : link
...2-3 QBs that are at least equal to Jones as far as prospects in the 2020 draft, and then Lawrence is sitting there in 2021.

But Jones looked really good last year, so I hope we get to see him this year. Maybe it will be a moot point.
RE: RE: You Take TL  
sb from NYT Forum : 8/13/2020 1:44 am : link
In comment 14948578 Milton said:
Quote:
And Peyton was first overall, but nobody was calling him a generational talent.


Peyton wasn't considered a generational talent?!? Are you kidding?

He would have been the #1 overall pick if he had come out the year before as a junior! He was the highest regarded QB prospect since Elway.
It  
Ron Johnson : 8/13/2020 1:52 am : link
Means DJ just went 3-13 or worse. The decision is easy.
Good discussion and valid points....  
MOOPS : 8/13/2020 4:18 am : link
made on both sides. Personally I hope DJ is the real deal and we're not looking at the number 1 pick next April.
But if DJ shows he's addressed the fumbling issues and improved his decision making as a natural progression in season 2, we stick with him.
Don't see  
OC2.0 : 8/13/2020 5:00 am : link
Us picking 1st. Alright. I guarantee it.
Unless he is injured  
chuckydee9 : 8/13/2020 8:06 am : link
I don't see how we get the 1st pick and DJ looks good.. that's not possible. Plus DG should be gone if we suck so bad.. this hypothetical question should he something like DJ plays Mediocre and we somehow end up with first pick, what do you do?

Any how if we are the worst team then it's time to do what's best for giants and either get a shit load of picks or draft TL.. DJ shouldn't really play a role in that discussion.
If we have the number 1 pick  
JoeyBigBlue : 8/13/2020 8:20 am : link
It means we sucked and most likely Daniel Jones sucked. You take Trevor Lawrence, without hesitation. Lawrence is probably the best QB prospect to come out of college football, with no major weakness. A generational talent comparable only to John Elway.
The hypothetical the OP gave was that Daniel Jones  
LBH15 : 8/13/2020 8:25 am : link
showed well enough to see he has a bright future.

Why do some of you have to change the hypothetical to "he sucked" just to give a view?
RE: If we have the number 1 pick  
cjac : 8/13/2020 8:27 am : link
In comment 14948849 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
It means we sucked and most likely Daniel Jones sucked. You take Trevor Lawrence, without hesitation. Lawrence is probably the best QB prospect to come out of college football, with no major weakness. A generational talent comparable only to John Elway.


i was just about to post the exact same thing

i'm really really hoping we arent drafting in the top 10 in April. We gotta turn this fucking thing around
RE: RE: RE: You Take TL  
LBH15 : 8/13/2020 8:28 am : link
In comment 14948814 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:
In comment 14948578 Milton said:


Quote:


And Peyton was first overall, but nobody was calling him a generational talent.



Peyton wasn't considered a generational talent?!? Are you kidding?

He would have been the #1 overall pick if he had come out the year before as a junior! He was the highest regarded QB prospect since Elway.


Then how did a lot of people see Ryan Leaf as the #1 pick? Was he generational too?
RE: It  
Zeke's Alibi : 8/13/2020 8:53 am : link
In comment 14948815 Ron Johnson said:
Quote:
Means DJ just went 3-13 or worse. The decision is easy.


This. A top ten pick QB is so bad that the team gets the first pick in his second year. Hello Trevor Lawrence. I usually am on the pulpit about QBs get way too much blame or credit, but a good QB doesn't finish with his team getting the number 1 pick.
generational and great  
JonC : 8/13/2020 10:24 am : link
get used far too easily around here.
RE: RE: RE: RE: You Take TL  
sb from NYT Forum : 8/13/2020 10:32 am : link
In comment 14948854 LBH15 said:
Quote:
In comment 14948814 sb from NYT Forum said:


Quote:


In comment 14948578 Milton said:


Quote:


And Peyton was first overall, but nobody was calling him a generational talent.



Peyton wasn't considered a generational talent?!? Are you kidding?

He would have been the #1 overall pick if he had come out the year before as a junior! He was the highest regarded QB prospect since Elway.



Then how did a lot of people see Ryan Leaf as the #1 pick? Was he generational too?


The idea that Leaf could be the #1 pick was a negotiating tactic by the Colts. Also from nonsense-spewing "analysts" that wanted to make names for themselves by being contrarian.
RE: generational and great  
LBH15 : 8/13/2020 10:37 am : link
In comment 14948938 JonC said:
Quote:
get used far too easily around here.


said same above
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: You Take TL  
LBH15 : 8/13/2020 10:47 am : link
In comment 14948946 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:
In comment 14948854 LBH15 said:


Quote:


In comment 14948814 sb from NYT Forum said:


Quote:


In comment 14948578 Milton said:


Quote:


And Peyton was first overall, but nobody was calling him a generational talent.



Peyton wasn't considered a generational talent?!? Are you kidding?

He would have been the #1 overall pick if he had come out the year before as a junior! He was the highest regarded QB prospect since Elway.



Then how did a lot of people see Ryan Leaf as the #1 pick? Was he generational too?



The idea that Leaf could be the #1 pick was a negotiating tactic by the Colts. Also from nonsense-spewing "analysts" that wanted to make names for themselves by being contrarian.


Yeah, not so much. While the Colts favored Manning by the time the draft was near, that doesn't mean San Diego or a lot of other football experts didn't see Leaf as the better choice with his strong arm.
In this particular scenario,  
Britt in VA : 8/13/2020 10:53 am : link
you actually could get something "generational". You'd get a generational haul of draft picks. That's what I would do. Trade out and a acquire couple additional 1st round picks, this year and next, and maybe the year after too.
I would trade him for an absolute fortune  
Jim in Forest Hills : 8/13/2020 12:18 pm : link
There's no guarantee he will be even as good as Jones.

The real question is what happened to Jones?
There are #1 overall types of QBs  
allstarjim : 8/13/2020 12:49 pm : link
And there are real #1 overall QBs. Think about this: Joe Burrow just had the greatest season of a college football QB in history, capping it off with a National Championship and undefeated record.

If Lawrence would've been able to come out into the 2020 draft, Burrow would've been the #2 overall pick.

You'd have to go back to Andrew Luck (MAYBE) to find a guy that would be drafted ahead of Lawrence in ANY NFL draft. And if you think Lawrence would go ahead of Luck, which is a possibility, then you'd have to go all the way back to the 1998 NFL Draft, where Peyton Manning was drafted #1 overall.

So put it this way...if you recreated a draft with all the players from the last 22 years in a draft pool, not knowing their NFL futures, it's highly likely Lawrence would be drafted no later than #3 overall.

You should take Lawrence at trade Jones.
For the college scouts, what flaws do you see in Lawrence?  
JoeyBigBlue : 8/13/2020 2:57 pm : link
He’s big 6’6”
Has a rocket arm
Is accurate
Has wheels (as shown against OSU)
And is a really nice kid off the field.


He’s probably the best QB prospect I’ve seen in my lifetime. (I am 37 now and didn’t see Elway)
Easy...  
Brown_Hornet : 8/13/2020 3:16 pm : link
...make the trade.
To me, generational means transcendent talent  
JonC : 8/13/2020 3:17 pm : link
Even Luck fell short in that category in the NFL despite his pedigree and blinding skills, even if it's for a variety of reasons. Mahomes is an excellent example of a generational talent, he's unique and almost unstoppable and the Chiefs have a ring largely because of him. Brady and his six rings are difficult to argue against, or Peyton greatness despite perhaps losing a few too many big games.

Perhaps Lawrence will prove to be that level of player. Right now, I think the projection is a bit much. Dabo's college system is up for debate in terms of accurate pro projection. He's certainly the best of the QB prospects teed up for the NFL now, and I think he's a better prospect than Watson, perhaps slightly ahead of Burrow in overall grade. But, Burrow's historic 2019 season shouldn't be discounted, it was very special.

Would I draft him and trade Jones? I would lean yes, but the trade booty to move down would appeal greatly to me.
I think there is some nuance here  
NoGainDayne : 8/13/2020 3:38 pm : link
our defense might be very bad this year. There is a way for Jones to show growth and us still having the worst record. But having a good QB should win you enough games that this wouldn't be an issue.

I'm not sure where all this Lawrence can't play in NY stuff is coming from though. He seems to have confidence, a passion for the game to put in the work. Worth investigating the trade market but in the end seems like it would be a mistake to pass up a potential MVP at QB when you are sitting with the worst record in the league.
all depends on how Jones performs and leads the team  
Torrag : 8/13/2020 9:07 pm : link
There is no stock number where I'd say 8 wins and I trade the pick for a haul or draft the best pass rusher. 4 wins and I draft Lawrence. That's not how this works.

It has to be viewed through the lens of the team and the season as a whole.
RE: To me, generational means transcendent talent  
fanatic II : 8/13/2020 9:17 pm : link
In comment 14949169 JonC said:
Quote:
Even Luck fell short in that category in the NFL despite his pedigree and blinding skills, even if it's for a variety of reasons. Mahomes is an excellent example of a generational talent, he's unique and almost unstoppable and the Chiefs have a ring largely because of him. Brady and his six rings are difficult to argue against, or Peyton greatness despite perhaps losing a few too many big games.

Perhaps Lawrence will prove to be that level of player. Right now, I think the projection is a bit much. Dabo's college system is up for debate in terms of accurate pro projection. He's certainly the best of the QB prospects teed up for the NFL now, and I think he's a better prospect than Watson, perhaps slightly ahead of Burrow in overall grade. But, Burrow's historic 2019 season shouldn't be discounted, it was very special.

Would I draft him and trade Jones? I would lean yes, but the trade booty to move down would appeal greatly to me.


Luck's problem was he took a lot of hits from a poor OL. Those hits added up and shorten his career.

Other than that Luck lived up to his status. Coming out of college I would take Luck over Lawrence. You would have to go back to P. Manning as the only QB that I would choose over Luck.

One QB in 25 years, that's generational.
Trevor Lawrence is a better prospect than Peyton Manning  
JoeyBigBlue : 8/13/2020 9:49 pm : link
Lawrence is a much better athlete and has a much better arm than Manning. I’m not saying he’s going to be better than Manning, but as a prospect Lawrence is in a class of his own.
Honestly, I don't even see how there's any doubt about  
BlueLou'sBack : 8/14/2020 1:41 am : link
what the smart move would be given the hypothetical posed in the OP:

Quote:
...but Daniel Jones has shown well enough during the year that he undoubtedly has a bright future.


If Jones undoubtedly has a bright future, you trade the pick for a boatload of picks or picks plus top young players...

As great a prospect as Sunshine is, has he had undoubtedly shown himself to have a bright NFL future? The answer is no, not at the NFL level.
...  
christian : 8/14/2020 9:21 am : link
I think many of you are underestimating how bad or how close to bad the Giants are.

If the Giants lost Barkley or Slayton for any amount of time, the offense immediately becomes a threat for league worst. If the Giants lost Bradberry or Lawrence for any amount time, the defense does as well.

Add in Covid, first year/first time head coach, defensive coordinator who led the league’s worst defense last year, and new systems on both sides. The Giants could be plenty bad and it not remotely be on Jones.
if it were my choice I would  
Jersey55 : 8/14/2020 4:52 pm : link
draft Lawrence if we have the chance and trade him for a boat load of high picks to a QB needy team...
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