Took an antibody test last week because I've been exposed literally hundreds if not a thousand or more times through my job at a retail wine and spirits store in an Orthodox Jewish community.
I've taken modest precautions for most of this time - wearing a mask at work, washing my hands 5 or more times during my 6-8 hour work shifts, and avoiding bringing my hands to my face at all times that I am conscious of them.
I don't wear gloves at all since I figure I can carry the virus in a water droplet from a wine bottle touched (or coughed on) by a customer to my face just as easily on a glove as on my bare skin...
I am reasonably knowledgeable about germs, microbes, viruses, disease spread as well as aseptic technique... I've taken college level undergrad or grad level courses in viruses and microbiology both and did well in those courses...
I dont have antibodies, and I've never had any sign of infection of the virus, none whatsoever.
So how easily is this bug transmitted, really?
Later I will go into some historical comparison between the current Covid-19 pandemic and the 1918 H1N1 malaise... So far this current pandemic is honestly weak sauce compared to that one... So far.
That pandemic killed anywhere from 10% to 30% of the world's population, in a world where far fewer people were 65+ years old, the primary mortality target of this current pandemic. I'd throw out the wild guess that we will have a vaccine against Covid-19 well before it reaches the staggering proportion of the 1918 Spanish flu.
Any thoughts appreciated, but let's keep this wholly apolitical, please. Comments from MDs or other healthcare pros especially appreciated in advance.
They also have nearly double the number of RN's per doctor (9.67 to 5.39) compared to NY.
I will start with a premise: there are very few governors or state-level politicians that I would applaud. Both of these states do not fall into this "applause" category.
But there are very few signs that FL learned any lessons from NY, when their HC delivery system was more set up to be able to handle the surge in cases. The fact that their numbers are comparable is disheartening.
Deaths and hospitalizations are certainly more important statistics than cases, but it is apples and oranges to compare deaths now to earlier in the pandemic when a lot less was known. Massachussets is 3rd highest in deaths per 1m behind just NY and NJ, with CT and RI rounding out the top 5. Notice the trend there?
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/state-timeline/new-confirmed-cases/florida/4
Here is what I worry about. Layoffs at the bigger corporate companies after the New Year. Then what about all the outstanding loans, lines of credits, unpaid leases etc. from business closures? That has to hit the financial sector at some point. And then....what can be done? This is only magnified by how long our economy and the world stays closed.
In addition to exercise, Vitamin D and keeping weight in control I have read lots of positives in intermittent fasting.
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/state-timeline/new-confirmed-cases/florida/4
thank you - it looks like FL did shut down bars at the end of June which seems like the most important policy decision other than masks. It looks like they may have even been earlier to shut down bars the 2nd time than CA, though that was likely because they reopened earlier and were surging earlier.
this is highly simplistic and speculative but since their various re-openings/re-closings seem similar to us in CA, the mask mandate seems like the biggest policy difference if I was going to guess the difference in outcomes per capita between these highly populous states that hit their surges in this similar time window (Texas would fit this too).
and I suppose the decisions on schools will be the next case study.
Quote: I meant that in terms of what is controllable vs looking at results and saying "they learned nothing from NY" when yes they did - they didn't force nursing homes to take COVID patients - what did NY do that they should learn from that they didn't. Please be specific.
Upstate NY had plenty of people very upset at the prospect of having downstate CoVid patients shipped to counties with barely any cases. In the end, I think only Utica, maybe Albany took any overflow but in real time back in March/April, there were not many good options.
So - where should the released CoVid patients who still needed professional care have been sent?
When some of these governors come out and say they are willing to accept the higher death tolls that come with fully re-opening, I will give them the benefit of the doubt. But I have not heard that. They simply ignore that decision by pretending opening everything up is safe, and those that want things closed are playing politics.
Where the U.S. really screwed the pooch was:
1. Encouraging and incentivizing mask wearing when going into stores.
2. Encouraging and incentivizing outdoor activities while maintaining distancing.
3. Encouraging and incentivizing self-quarantines (or, at the least, not lying about your fucking symptoms or past positive tests).
Some of these are structurally related to social welfare issues (lack of paid sick leave or childcare options; lack of Medicaid access in states that did not expand); some are just the goddamn stubborn nature of Americans.
While we need to have conversations about re-opening the economy to a greater scale than we are seeing in certain areas, we must acknowledge it's going to come at an awful human cost, but we've also got to get rid of this stupid stigma that masks and social distancing aren't effective.
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Here's one.
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/state-timeline/new-confirmed-cases/florida/4
thank you - it looks like FL did shut down bars at the end of June which seems like the most important policy decision other than masks. It looks like they may have even been earlier to shut down bars the 2nd time than CA, though that was likely because they reopened earlier and were surging earlier.
this is highly simplistic and speculative but since their various re-openings/re-closings seem similar to us in CA, the mask mandate seems like the biggest policy difference if I was going to guess the difference in outcomes per capita between these highly populous states that hit their surges in this similar time window (Texas would fit this too).
and I suppose the decisions on schools will be the next case study.
Yeah; if you take a look at the inflection points of and correlate that to closures, you see there's a pattern.
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of early preparation and learning from New York's successes and mistakes on handling the virus. The fact that Florida's numbers are even approaching New York's is shameful.
WTF are you talking about?
FL has under 9,000 deaths, NY has over 32,000 and again, Florida is bigger.
and what lessons did people learn from NY?
Don't force nursing homes to take COVID patients? No shit. No one thought that made sense except maybe one person the media and fanboys fawn over.
NY was an unmitigated disaster.
I was referring to the nursing home numbers you cited - everyone acknowledges that 5800 dead in NY is bad, but 3000 shouldn't be acceptable either.
And Florida has already surpassed NY in total cases. What do you think the reason is behind Florida having more cases than NY despite having more time to prepare for it?
More time to prepare for sounds like a red herring. What would you have suggested be done differently without the benefit of 2020 hindsight?
When FL re-opened they had low numbers of cases, hospitalizations, and deaths. Follow the science people say, so they did (at the time).
They still have low number of deaths (relatively speaking) and at the end of the day, that's really how I view success.
Holly Shit is the post for real?
They barely were on lockdown. They let churches stay open because they were “essential”.
They also were caught fucking with the data after the fired their SAS Data Analytics person.
If their was a playbook for what not do they wrote it.
They acted like it wasn’t going to happen to them and went about business as usual.
They are lucky that they have more hospitals than most states because I of their demographics.
I live in South Florida. You are telling a bunch of lies. It is not normal and has not been for a long time. Schools closed in March. Public schools are still closed. Masks are mandatory. Bars are closed, restaurants were closed to takeout only and now are finally opened to 50% capacity, etc. what are you even talking about?
Where the U.S. really screwed the pooch was:
1. Encouraging and incentivizing mask wearing when going into stores.
2. Encouraging and incentivizing outdoor activities while maintaining distancing.
3. Encouraging and incentivizing self-quarantines (or, at the least, not lying about your fucking symptoms or past positive tests).
Some of these are structurally related to social welfare issues (lack of paid sick leave or childcare options; lack of Medicaid access in states that did not expand); some are just the goddamn stubborn nature of Americans.
While we need to have conversations about re-opening the economy to a greater scale than we are seeing in certain areas, we must acknowledge it's going to come at an awful human cost, but we've also got to get rid of this stupid stigma that masks and social distancing aren't effective.
Agree with all this and would add 1 thing, I think by and large there has been poor messaging on a key reason why buying time is important - which is the rapid advancement of treatments and therapeutics. The numbers above from the Northwell guy being the case in point, if you are hospitalized in his hospital now you have a 2x better chance of surviving now than you did a few months ago because of the advancements in care.
This is a guess but I expect most people would say the reason for slowing the spread was so hospitals won't get overrun - which is true but also a theoretical most people will never fully appreciate until it's experienced personally or locally in some way.
If people realized that every month they don't get it their chances of surviving whenever they do get it go up 10% (or whatever the # is), I would think that would have more of an impact of on day to day decision making and cost/benefit analysis.
But a lot of the resource struggle has been human labor. In hospitals, the work is done in fixed proportions, unlike a lot of other places. We simply aren't at the point in our technological time frame (for healthcare) to have rapid automated or tele medicine.
COVID19 Rapid Test Kits - ( New Window )
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of early preparation and learning from New York's successes and mistakes on handling the virus. The fact that Florida's numbers are even approaching New York's is shameful.
WTF are you talking about?
FL has under 9,000 deaths, NY has over 32,000 and again, Florida is bigger.
and what lessons did people learn from NY?
Don't force nursing homes to take COVID patients? No shit. No one thought that made sense except maybe one person the media and fanboys fawn over.
NY was an unmitigated disaster.
I was referring to the nursing home numbers you cited - everyone acknowledges that 5800 dead in NY is bad, but 3000 shouldn't be acceptable either.
And Florida has already surpassed NY in total cases. What do you think the reason is behind Florida having more cases than NY despite having more time to prepare for it?
More time to prepare for sounds like a red herring. What would you have suggested be done differently without the benefit of 2020 hindsight?
When FL re-opened they had low numbers of cases, hospitalizations, and deaths. Follow the science people say, so they did (at the time).
They still have low number of deaths (relatively speaking) and at the end of the day, that's really how I view success.
Holly Shit is the post for real?
They barely were on lockdown. They let churches stay open because they were “essential”.
They also were caught fucking with the data after the fired their SAS Data Analytics person.
If their was a playbook for what not do they wrote it.
They acted like it wasn’t going to happen to them and went about business as usual.
They are lucky that they have more hospitals than most states because I of their demographics.
I live in South Florida. You are telling a bunch of lies. It is not normal and has not been for a long time. Schools closed in March. Public schools are still closed. Masks are mandatory. Bars are closed, restaurants were closed to takeout only and now are finally opened to 50% capacity, etc. what are you even talking about?
I mean they started lifting restrictions on April 30th which was only a month into quarantine and started later then everyone else. Your true quarantine was 3 or 4 weeks same with Georgia.
Up here in the North East it took until like June before you could even eat outside or really do much of anything outside the house.
The fact of the matter is they left a to of this in the Floridians hands instead of taking it seriously like other states. If they had been on a true lockdown as long as we had you guys wouldn’t be where you are now, but something something restricting my freedom.
Link - ( New Window )
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In comment 14949467 pjcas18 said:
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of early preparation and learning from New York's successes and mistakes on handling the virus. The fact that Florida's numbers are even approaching New York's is shameful.
WTF are you talking about?
FL has under 9,000 deaths, NY has over 32,000 and again, Florida is bigger.
and what lessons did people learn from NY?
Don't force nursing homes to take COVID patients? No shit. No one thought that made sense except maybe one person the media and fanboys fawn over.
NY was an unmitigated disaster.
I was referring to the nursing home numbers you cited - everyone acknowledges that 5800 dead in NY is bad, but 3000 shouldn't be acceptable either.
And Florida has already surpassed NY in total cases. What do you think the reason is behind Florida having more cases than NY despite having more time to prepare for it?
More time to prepare for sounds like a red herring. What would you have suggested be done differently without the benefit of 2020 hindsight?
When FL re-opened they had low numbers of cases, hospitalizations, and deaths. Follow the science people say, so they did (at the time).
They still have low number of deaths (relatively speaking) and at the end of the day, that's really how I view success.
Holly Shit is the post for real?
They barely were on lockdown. They let churches stay open because they were “essential”.
They also were caught fucking with the data after the fired their SAS Data Analytics person.
If their was a playbook for what not do they wrote it.
They acted like it wasn’t going to happen to them and went about business as usual.
They are lucky that they have more hospitals than most states because I of their demographics.
I live in South Florida. You are telling a bunch of lies. It is not normal and has not been for a long time. Schools closed in March. Public schools are still closed. Masks are mandatory. Bars are closed, restaurants were closed to takeout only and now are finally opened to 50% capacity, etc. what are you even talking about?
I mean they started lifting restrictions on April 30th which was only a month into quarantine and started later then everyone else. Your true quarantine was 3 or 4 weeks.
Up here in the North East it took until like June before you could even eat outside or really do much of anything outside the house. Shit you still can’t do that much right now.
The fact of the matter is they left a ton of this in the Floridians hands instead of taking it seriously like other states. If they had been on a true lockdown as long as we had you guys wouldn’t be where you are now, but something something restricting my freedom.
Florida moves to ease coronavirus lockdown as promising treatment emerges - ( New Window )
All the leaders, media, etc..
Follow the science they said, two weeks to flatten the curve they said, don't wear masks, wear masks, wear gaiters, asymptomnatic can't transmit it, now they can, kids can't transmit it, wait - yes they can, WHO and CDC differing, wear eye covering, wait for a vaccine, a vaccine won't be effective, "new normal", no church services, we cannot protect people in prisons so they have to be released, no singing in church, no crowd over 100, over 50, over 25, no funerals, but you can protest because that's important.
restaurants can open (for dine in - in limited capacity), and you can drink there but bars can't open unless they serve food, but it has to be substantial food and not chicken wings, etc, etc. etc.....rules that did not seem to be consistent or follow science (at least not seemingly). They seemed arbitrary at best, draconian at worst.
- all while the virus was producing a sub 65 death rate that was not compelling.
I like to believe in the good of people, all people, so I feel like most people would make small sacrifices for the greater good, but they have to trust the message of sacrifice.
Once you lose the trust of the people you lose it IMO and I don't know if you can ever regain it.
CDC: One quarter of young adults contemplated suicide during pandemic - ( New Window )
Creating straw men doesn't accomplish anything.
I really don't think anyone wants that. I'm also pretty sure that "open everything back up right now" also isn't the solution.
I don't know why people feel the need to speak in such absolutes when it's clear no one is going to have all the right answers. Even the experts are still learning and adjusting guidelines on the fly because there are still so many unknowns involved.
Creating straw men doesn't accomplish anything.
I really don't think anyone wants that. I'm also pretty sure that "open everything back up right now" also isn't the solution.
I don't know why people feel the need to speak in such absolutes when it's clear no one is going to have all the right answers. Even the experts are still learning and adjusting guidelines on the fly because there are still so many unknowns involved.
I'd disagree, there's quite a few people in this thread who seem perfectly content to work remotely indefinitely, socialize in their coronacule indefinitely and since their lives' haven't been severely negative impact think any dissention is tantamount to reckless death seeking. My response is largely at that mentality. All these silly 'you can open your bar but only if it serves food' or 'if you've been to South Dakota you have to quarantine, but if you've been to Wyoming, you don't' are hallmarks of the Doing Something™ mentality that will keep us mired in this bullshit FOREVER. End all restrictions, open everything. Sweden never lockdown - where's the smoke from their massive funeral pyres?
Also, stop talking about cases - many cases are people who didn't even realize they had it, let alone became severely ill. Cases are a good thing, that means it's making its way through as it's going to have to do. We missed the window for containment (Thanks China!) so this is what we got left.
Let me ask this, what's the criteria for all restrictions to be lifted? Is it agreed upon? Where is the proof that these capricious restrictions are effective at anything other than societal destruction? There's been such an abridgement of rights throughout this whole thing and nary a peep from a lot of people, in the name of public health. 150K dead in 5 months - how many would've died anyway? That's a long time and a low number for a country of 300,000,000+. How many have died or declined because of the restrictions imposed? Missed a cancer screening? Gained weight from lack of exercise and movement, which will beget future health issues? How many businesses are permanently shuttered? How many lives have been financially ruined? How many people are suffering from the effects of isolation?
I'm absolutely at my wit's end with all these people who've turned fear into a virtue, and thus the more fearful you are the more virtuous you are. Fuck all that noise. Does anyone have all the right answers? Of course not. Are all these unverified half measure and infringements getting the job done? Clearly not. Nowhere has done something that 'works' in the sense of 100% elimination; it's an unachievable goal that needs to be dropped.
If you're still so terrified then you can stay the fuck home forever. Stop telling me what I can do. We've now passed 150 days of '15 days to stop the spread'. At that point, the understanding was that people were going to get sick, but we wanted to mitigate the impact. This has been achieved. In a now desolate NYC, are there capacity issues? Which part of America has bodies stacked up as hospital staff desperately triage their inundated wards?
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of early preparation and learning from New York's successes and mistakes on handling the virus. The fact that Florida's numbers are even approaching New York's is shameful.
WTF are you talking about?
FL has under 9,000 deaths, NY has over 32,000 and again, Florida is bigger.
and what lessons did people learn from NY?
Don't force nursing homes to take COVID patients? No shit. No one thought that made sense except maybe one person the media and fanboys fawn over.
NY was an unmitigated disaster.
I was referring to the nursing home numbers you cited - everyone acknowledges that 5800 dead in NY is bad, but 3000 shouldn't be acceptable either.
And Florida has already surpassed NY in total cases. What do you think the reason is behind Florida having more cases than NY despite having more time to prepare for it?
More time to prepare for sounds like a red herring. What would you have suggested be done differently without the benefit of 2020 hindsight?
When FL re-opened they had low numbers of cases, hospitalizations, and deaths. Follow the science people say, so they did (at the time).
They still have low number of deaths (relatively speaking) and at the end of the day, that's really how I view success.
Holly Shit is the post for real?
They barely were on lockdown. They let churches stay open because they were “essential”.
They also were caught fucking with the data after the fired their SAS Data Analytics person.
If their was a playbook for what not do they wrote it.
They acted like it wasn’t going to happen to them and went about business as usual.
They are lucky that they have more hospitals than most states because I of their demographics.
I live in South Florida. You are telling a bunch of lies. It is not normal and has not been for a long time. Schools closed in March. Public schools are still closed. Masks are mandatory. Bars are closed, restaurants were closed to takeout only and now are finally opened to 50% capacity, etc. what are you even talking about?
I mean they started lifting restrictions on April 30th which was only a month into quarantine and started later then everyone else. Your true quarantine was 3 or 4 weeks.
Up here in the North East it took until like June before you could even eat outside or really do much of anything outside the house. Shit you still can’t do that much right now.
The fact of the matter is they left a ton of this in the Floridians hands instead of taking it seriously like other states. If they had been on a true lockdown as long as we had you guys wouldn’t be where you are now, but something something restricting my freedom.
Florida moves to ease coronavirus lockdown as promising treatment emerges - ( New Window )
Florida has taken it pretty damn seriously and has done the best they could to protect the elderly and the vulnerable. What is taking it seriously in your mind? Sending sick people into nursing homes to kill the elderly by the thousands?
Sweden has one of the highest per-capita rates of COVID deaths in the world. Higher than the U.S., higher than France, an order of magnitude higher than their Scandinavian neighbors. I think only Spain and Italy have had a higher rate*, so there's quite a bit of smoke there.
*With the caveat that I think most of us distrust the figures from China and Russia, and NK hasn't even released data.
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Sweden never lockdown - where's the smoke from their massive funeral pyres?
Sweden has one of the highest per-capita rates of COVID deaths in the world. Higher than the U.S., higher than France, an order of magnitude higher than their Scandinavian neighbors. I think only Spain and Italy have had a higher rate*, so there's quite a bit of smoke there.
*With the caveat that I think most of us distrust the figures from China and Russia, and NK hasn't even released data.
So what's the number?
Sweden: -8.4
Denmark: -7.2
Norway: -8.5 (forecasted)
Germany: -10.9 (forecasted)
Yeah who knew sending sick people into vulnerable populations would cause death? Except all of human civilization since antiquity?
It's not being "terrified" as much as it's looking for the right way to get around this. You are thinking for yourself and what you want and what works for your career and lifestyle - which is great, but not everyone else is in that same box.
Perhaps if you were immunocompromised or spent time with someone who was, or perhaps if you had lost someone close to you to this virus, your tune would be different.
Maybe if you had become sick enough to be intubated or spend 2 weeks in a hospital bed, you'd see things differently.
Do you have kids? That could also potentially change your perspective, as could countless other factors.
Stop assuming your mentality is the only mentality people can or should have towards this. It's not helpful. You just sound like a brazen jackass.
Abandoning all caution and just opening everything immediately with flu season looming could be absolutely devastating and have chaotic consequences. I'm sorry, but that would be an absolutely careless and ludicrous thing to do right now.
If you're such a badass, go out and do your thing. Skip the mask, skip the precautions - just get out there and show everyone how unafraid you are. I'm sure it'll be really impressive - maybe you'll get a 6 to come home with you and you can trade germs and really own the libs that way.
I don't want a "forever lockdown" and it benefits no one to do that. So, again, you may as well just cut the shit with that line altogether - it's a ridiculous straw man and isn't making any argument.
Some lockdowns were necessary back in April and around that time because hospitals in some areas were literally completely overrun and had beds in hallways. Some medical workers had to decide who lived and who died because there wasn't enough equipment/capacity to treat everyone. Imagine having to make that call? I'm sure you'll never have to... lucky you.
Re-opening needs to happen, but it needs to be done strategically. A packed out, indoor bar is going to be a significantly more transmissible environment than a place with outdoor seating and space for people to have some distance between them. The phases get there eventually, but just blowing through all of the precautions does nothing but set everyone back.
The last fucking thing I want to deal with is starting from scratch where we are *forced* to shut things down again because numbers are exploding again and hospitals are becoming over-stressed. I'd much rather proceed with caution and keep moving forward.
Having to start from the beginning would be absolutely devastating, and that's almost guaranteed to happen if you throw up your arms and just say "okay, everyone, go back to how you were like it never happened... good luck!"
That's not the answer, and I don't think any reputable epidemiologist or medical professional would think so either.
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His responses don't match his excellent reporting and analysis in his many, many press conferences which have been substantive, meaningful, heartfelt - he drew tears and even some laughter at times. He was everything you could ask for a leader to be. He defined his career with those press conferences, turned himself into a valid future Presidential contender.
Yeah who knew sending sick people into vulnerable populations would cause death? Except all of human civilization since antiquity?
Lol. Ain’t that the truth. NY kills the vulnerable, spreads the disease throughout the country, and then talks shit about other states that get it later than they do, but keep the deaths much lower. Comical
KDav, for a little while I thought xmead was the Gov's "all natural" brother. NY'ers who lost loved ones are pushing hard to show the actual number of NH and ALF deaths in NY. Will be interesting how that shakes out.
Sweden has a high death rate but the amount of people dying is very low right now. Probably a better comparison will be looking at this 6 months or longer down the road and then comparing with all factors considered.
KDav, for a little while I thought xmead was the Gov's "all natural" brother. NY'ers who lost loved ones are pushing hard to show the actual number of NH and ALF deaths in NY. Will be interesting how that shakes out.
Sweden has a high death rate but the amount of people dying is very low right now. Probably a better comparison will be looking at this 6 months or longer down the road and then comparing with all factors considered.
I don’t get the glorification of Cuomo. It is absolutely mind-boggling. Pretty much every populated area will get it, and it will run through a good part of the population.
As Nitro said, the #1 thing everyone knew is to protect the elderly/vulnerable. If it weren’t for the government making laws protecting the government from criminal/civil liability, Cuomo should be criminally charged for those easily preventable deaths and the state should be sued into oblivion. Instead, he will not be held accountable, and NY will be collecting plenty of estate tax from those they killed
Nailed it - definitely just a matter of juvenile rebellion and not amazement at the gross abridgement of rights people are willing to embrace on specious evidence. Freedom of assembly (unless it's the right cause), freedom of religion, freedom of movement, freedom of association, on and on. Please point out other illnesses where the healthy were quarantined like this? The precedent for this ridiculousness I'm apparently missing. If you say, actually it's unprecedented, then it should warrant extreme scrunity. I don't think this is effective policy or worth the other costs. I think it's hamhanded, one-size-fits-all government with scary implications. My mentality is that treating everyone like the most at risk people has been a fucking disaster - you can call that brazenly jackassed if you'd like.
Reading this thread, there's definitely people who are terrified. They're driving the car for the rest of us. In any scenario, if you're extremely at risk you should be cautious - if you are not, you are being mandated to do this whether or not it's actually all that sensible and no matter any other cost. You know a 1/3 of the US missed their housing payment in July? How many people in extreme economic strife have been prohibited from working through no fault of their own? How many businesses have been forcibly closed while Amazon and Walmart gobble up their market share, because apparently they are allowed to be open?
If I were immunocompromised I would behave differently, if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. Maybe if I had someone close die I could lord it over BBI like others have. Thing is, I actually did have Coronavirus in the spring, and after a rough weekend and a week or two of persistent cough, it was over. Is my experience the only one? Of course not, but stop trying to frighten me with something I've experienced.
Kind of seems what your doing. The zealousness of the cautious crowd will keep us mired in this depression long beyond it's utility.
I assume this is projection, and pretty risible bait at that. I could be single, dating, married or an Ottoman Shah and my point would remain the same, and you betray your own political priors with this tawdry cheapshot. Really makes me think significantly less of you, someone who I generally felt was fairly thoughtful.
I'm not fighting grocery store cashiers about my right to go maskless, but I still think this is all dumb bullshit - somehow wearing a bandana like Jesse James is peak epidemiology!! Go to a restaurant and eat mask free but remask if you go the bathroom. If your protest is righteous enough, social distancing need not apply!
I'll play the game, but I don't hear people asking 'when does it end' which makes me feel they're content with this existing forever. There should be a clear exit strategy but instead it's let's just go deeper and deeper. And since you've brought it up, a leading 'person' suggests they'll mandate masks in all scenarios for a 3 period minimum and it's suppose be like, shrug?
I am not criticizing cautious lockdowns in March and April, I am criticizing their continued utility in August near September. Spare me the triage worst case scenarios as a blanket defense of criticism.
Well we were all forced to do that following mass protest, riot and looting, but that's not allowed to be mentioned. Seriously, NYS contact tracers aren't allowed to ask about protest attendance.
They are not the only people with an opinion that matters. Consult them, utilize their opinions and info judiciously and then factor it along with all the other information that's needed here. Fauci farts and half of you are like 'well now we have to all fart' and it's like, this is just one piece of the puzzle. It feels like our country is collapsing - I'd like that to not happen. I think a big part of that is as immediate return to normal as possible. Even if that happened, there'd still be a lag as people slowly dip their toes back in. If people want to resume their lives, caveat emptor. We're only delaying the inevitable.
I believe your in Florida. So the news is the all the cases their, etc. Yet that governor warned that his state was close to "economic devastation" a couple months ago so I understand his logic. So much lost revenue from tourism. Most don't hear that side when they are not from whatever state is in question.
I believe your in Florida. So the news is the all the cases their, etc. Yet that governor warned that his state was close to "economic devastation" a couple months ago so I understand his logic. So much lost revenue from tourism. Most don't hear that side when they are not from whatever state is in question.
The economic burden from this is going to make a lot of people and places reassess their priorities for decades to come. Even in Sweden, the golden child of Scandinavia, we have seen a GDP decrease of 8.2% for Q2.
This is not going to be a quick, v-shaped recovery. And given the apparent month before further stimulus may legislated (rather than go into effect), the economic harms from this are going to last well past any large scale reopenings.
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Ah, you're one of the "no one tells me what to do" people...
Nailed it - definitely just a matter of juvenile rebellion and not amazement at the gross abridgement of rights people are willing to embrace on specious evidence. Freedom of assembly (unless it's the right cause), freedom of religion, freedom of movement, freedom of association, on and on. Please point out other illnesses where the healthy were quarantined like this? The precedent for this ridiculousness I'm apparently missing. If you say, actually it's unprecedented, then it should warrant extreme scrunity. I don't think this is effective policy or worth the other costs. I think it's hamhanded, one-size-fits-all government with scary implications. My mentality is that treating everyone like the most at risk people has been a fucking disaster - you can call that brazenly jackassed if you'd like.
Reading this thread, there's definitely people who are terrified. They're driving the car for the rest of us. In any scenario, if you're extremely at risk you should be cautious - if you are not, you are being mandated to do this whether or not it's actually all that sensible and no matter any other cost. You know a 1/3 of the US missed their housing payment in July? How many people in extreme economic strife have been prohibited from working through no fault of their own? How many businesses have been forcibly closed while Amazon and Walmart gobble up their market share, because apparently they are allowed to be open?
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Perhaps if you were immunocompromised or spent time with someone who was, or perhaps if you had lost someone close to you to this virus, your tune would be different.
If I were immunocompromised I would behave differently, if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. Maybe if I had someone close die I could lord it over BBI like others have. Thing is, I actually did have Coronavirus in the spring, and after a rough weekend and a week or two of persistent cough, it was over. Is my experience the only one? Of course not, but stop trying to frighten me with something I've experienced.
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Stop assuming your mentality is the only mentality people can or should have towards this. It's not helpful. You just sound like a brazen jackass.
Kind of seems what your doing. The zealousness of the cautious crowd will keep us mired in this depression long beyond it's utility.
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If you're such a badass, go out and do your thing. Skip the mask, skip the precautions - just get out there and show everyone how unafraid you are. I'm sure it'll be really impressive - maybe you'll get a 6 to come home with you and you can trade germs and really own the libs that way.
I assume this is projection, and pretty risible bait at that. I could be single, dating, married or an Ottoman Shah and my point would remain the same, and you betray your own political priors with this tawdry cheapshot. Really makes me think significantly less of you, someone who I generally felt was fairly thoughtful.
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I don't want a "forever lockdown" and it benefits no one to do that. So, again, you may as well just cut the shit with that line altogether - it's a ridiculous straw man and isn't making any argument.
I'm not fighting grocery store cashiers about my right to go maskless, but I still think this is all dumb bullshit - somehow wearing a bandana like Jesse James is peak epidemiology!! Go to a restaurant and eat mask free but remask if you go the bathroom. If your protest is righteous enough, social distancing need not apply!
I'll play the game, but I don't hear people asking 'when does it end' which makes me feel they're content with this existing forever. There should be a clear exit strategy but instead it's let's just go deeper and deeper. And since you've brought it up, a leading 'person' suggests they'll mandate masks in all scenarios for a 3 period minimum and it's suppose be like, shrug?
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Some lockdowns were necessary back in April and around that time because hospitals in some areas were literally completely overrun and had beds in hallways. Some medical workers had to decide who lived and who died because there wasn't enough equipment/capacity to treat everyone. Imagine having to make that call? I'm sure you'll never have to... lucky you.
I am not criticizing cautious lockdowns in March and April, I am criticizing their continued utility in August near September. Spare me the triage worst case scenarios as a blanket defense of criticism.
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The last fucking thing I want to deal with is starting from scratch where we are *forced* to shut things down again because numbers are exploding again and hospitals are becoming over-stressed. I'd much rather proceed with caution and keep moving forward.
Well we were all forced to do that following mass protest, riot and looting, but that's not allowed to be mentioned. Seriously, NYS contact tracers aren't allowed to ask about protest attendance.
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That's not the answer, and I don't think any reputable epidemiologist or medical professional would think so either.
They are not the only people with an opinion that matters. Consult them, utilize their opinions and info judiciously and then factor it along with all the other information that's needed here. Fauci farts and half of you are like 'well now we have to all fart' and it's like, this is just one piece of the puzzle. It feels like our country is collapsing - I'd like that to not happen. I think a big part of that is as immediate return to normal as possible. Even if that happened, there'd still be a lag as people slowly dip their toes back in. If people want to resume their lives, caveat emptor. We're only delaying the inevitable.
You talk about wanting to return to normal, plenty of countries have returned to much closer to normal than us, why do you think that is?
Probably because they listened to the doctors.
You talk about wanting to return to normal, plenty of countries have returned to much closer to normal than us, why do you think that is?
Probably because they listened to the doctors.
And I could say they never had it as bad because they have stronger internal and external border controls and had fewer tourists and we'd both be right/wrong because nothing in this world is univariate, thanks for playing.
because it's become a trope with no meaning.
When doctors say they support HCQ with zinc and z-pack they're ostracized because that's not what "they" want you to say.
Yet, faked studies showing inefficacy of HCQ are shared without scrutiny.
so it's really listen to the doctors or follow the science if they support your agenda.
But again, I think most people would be willing to consider guidelines or conditions if they supported common sense.
For example, the youth hockey guidelines just came out for Massachusetts. They have kept kids off the ice all pandemic, recently opened up for socially distanced practices (whatever that is supposed to mean) and then issued this gem for guidance on games:
Hockey games will be allowed to resume on Monday, August 17th, provided organizers and participants can comply with updated Massachusetts guidance and collect contact tracing information for all participants, officials, and spectators.
..
3) Practices can continue using up to two cohorts of 25 spaced at least 14’ apart and social distanced within the cohort.....
5) Face coverings for players on the bench and when taking a face-off
6) Social distancing on the bench (6’ separation)
....
10) Team room use remains at 50% capacity
Meanwhile, New Hampshire does not have any guidelines and out kids have been in tournaments there the every other weekend just about since June.
no issues, no flare ups, no hot spots.
And look at the infection rates, hospitalizations, and deaths for kids.
Who is this protecting? Wear your mask when you leave. social distance.
But stop being draconian or punitive.
MA hockey guidelines - ( New Window )
I mean, if you want to live in a way where you are certain you know better based on some hockey guidelines in New Hampshire and just totally abandon all medical advice going forward, I guess that's your prerogative.
Do you not trust a doctor if you're sick otherwise?
I'm not saying to take every medical professionals word as gospel or not expand out a bit and see what people are saying on different ends of the spectrum, but to just get to a point where you say people should just stop listening to science or doctors altogether is pretty dangerous and probably not advisable.
Even if medical professionals have limited knowledge at this stage, ours is even less in the majority of cases. I'm not pompous enough to believe I know more than everyone else does and disregard what they say just because they've made some missteps along the way.
LOL
From statnews
Lancet, New England Journal retract Covid-19 studies, including one that raised safety concerns about malaria drugs
From the lancet
Retraction—Hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine with or without a macrolide for treatment of COVID-19: a multinational registry analysis
From the Scientist
From the Guardian:
Surgisphere, whose employees appear to include a sci-fi writer and adult content model, provided database behind Lancet and New England Journal of Medicine hydroxychloroquine studies
From Science Mag - linked below
link - ( New Window )
With the majority showing that it is ineffective for concommitant use, but the act as a prophylactic is unknown?
Given how shocked you are about this, you would probably be shocked about the volume of retracted studies that occur on an annual basis...
I mean, if you want to live in a way where you are certain you know better based on some hockey guidelines in New Hampshire and just totally abandon all medical advice going forward, I guess that's your prerogative.
Do you not trust a doctor if you're sick otherwise?
I'm not saying to take every medical professionals word as gospel or not expand out a bit and see what people are saying on different ends of the spectrum, but to just get to a point where you say people should just stop listening to science or doctors altogether is pretty dangerous and probably not advisable.
Even if medical professionals have limited knowledge at this stage, ours is even less in the majority of cases. I'm not pompous enough to believe I know more than everyone else does and disregard what they say just because they've made some missteps along the way.
My point is that it's only some medical professionals who are being consulted or only some advice being listened to or amplified.
Fauci recently said if people wear masks and social distance there is no reason we cannot have in person voting. How do you think that message will be received?
As a population it seems like the US is not very smart. media says it, people lap it up.
Nitro is right, and whoever said it is also right, more people think like Nitro than you may think, only most are silent about it.
With the majority showing that it is ineffective for concommitant use, but the act as a prophylactic is unknown?
Given how shocked you are about this, you would probably be shocked about the volume of retracted studies that occur on an annual basis...
I didn't say every study was faked, I said the one that was faked was amplified and shared massively before even a cursory review let alone a proper peer review. Why do you think that is? It's confirmation bias. That's why.
Yet, you have many (hundreds or more) doctors who support HCQ use and testify as to the efficacy with their patients and they have their information flagged on social media as misleading (though there is no proof of that - despite the doctors backgrounds) and they are even banned from platforms like twitter and facebook simply for their medical opinions.
that was my point.
In fact, not shocked, but the opposite.
So, let's say that you are correct, and it's 100% a fake on the part of the two studies. Observational data on the part of "hundreds" of doctors has not been verified either (and some of these doctors have been found to be in settings where it's not likely that they saw COVID-positive patients). And academic retraction is much more damning than your favorite social media platform deleting posts.
And, given that the burden is on objective analysis of the null hypothesis, which is that HCQ is not effective, we shouldn't instantly adopt the alternative.
With the majority showing that it is ineffective for concommitant use, but the act as a prophylactic is unknown?
Given how shocked you are about this, you would probably be shocked about the volume of retracted studies that occur on an annual basis...
Can you link to several? I'm interested in educating myself
You won't be considered for a Nobel for the latter in science; the former, you may very well be...
So, let's say that you are correct, and it's 100% a fake on the part of the two studies. Observational data on the part of "hundreds" of doctors has not been verified either (and some of these doctors have been found to be in settings where it's not likely that they saw COVID-positive patients). And academic retraction is much more damning than your favorite social media platform deleting posts.
And, given that the burden is on objective analysis of the null hypothesis, which is that HCQ is not effective, we shouldn't instantly adopt the alternative.
Of course not and that's not my point.
If there was a study that came out and said HCQ with z-pack and zinc proves effective do you think before being shared it would garner a massive amount of scrutiny?
If, you agree, that yes it would, then why don't you think this surgisphere study warranted the same level of scrutiny before esteemed publications like the lancet and NEJM shared it?
(That's prophylactic).
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2765499
(Stopped after some potential nasty side effects from high doses of HCQ, but limited sample (81) saw no benefits).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7351664/
(Synthesis of literature saw that a lot of studies had a lot of potential statistical bias. With those with the lowest potential bias, evidence suggested a lack of effectiveness).