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| @RapSheet #Giants are set to release CB Deandre Baker, officially moving on from their ex-first rounder this week, source said. Not a surprise, they’d hinted at it... and recently gave away his number. Baker was on the Commissioner’s Exempt list after charges with 4 counts of armed robbery |
They recognized at some level, there was something wrong on the vetting and support side. Maybe Baker was a symptom.
Good post.
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Which is interesting considering most of the time Bettcher played him in ways that were absolutely wrong for Baker. When Baker was used in press man concepts he had his best performances of the season. However, it stopped when we had one overzealous officiating crew and Bettecher seemed scared to do it again.
DeAndre looks pissed off that he has to take a picture. What an asshole.
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With this franchise in quite some time.
Losing 1st rounds picks like this can really hurt a franchise.
Every team has first-round busts. This was bad, but it's not a disaster. If Jones busts, that's about 10x worse. If Dexter Lawrence busts, that's about 3x worse. If Jones is the starter for 10 years and Lawrence makes a couple of Pro Bowls, then it'lll still be a successful first round, even with Baker self-immolating.
Having multiple first round picks makes it seem like it's not so bad.
We've been through this before. When you lose 1st round picks such as due to injury, you create a talent drought that you feel for years. Most likely they will have to spend another first round pick on a corner now. That's a first round pick that can't be spent at a different position.
Its like being stuck on a treadmill. You're not really improving, you're chasing to fill that position.
But no matter what issues were raised about him before the draft, to suggest that those concerns are being overstated now is just being obtuse.
Baker had a poor rookie year with his play; was called out by his peers and his prior coaches for his conduct on and off the field; wasn't participating in team video meetings with his new coaches; and now is dealing with the charges of armed robbery.
With those facts over the past year, I would suggest if there were any concerns, character or other, raised pre-draft on Baker they were completely understated if anything.
We’re talking about a guy who claimed he didn’t know Rosas had a previous DUI, because he wasn’t the guy who signed him (like that didn’t come up over the last 2 months when considering firing the guy for a drunk hit and run?).
The Giants fired the regional scout and replaced the player development program. They understand Baker (and maybe others), were the symptom of a problem.
Craniometry is more accurate.
Looking back at the 2 previous drafts under DG under this regime the list of SEC guys we had selected isn't that long:
18 Carter
19 Baker
19 Slayton
19 Big George
This year alone we took another 4 (Thomas, McKinney, Brunson, Crowder).
Now I do think the NYG Southeast scout does the entire region not just SEC players, but that only further pinpoints Baker as the likeliest big mistake that would cost someone a job because the rest of our south east players were seemingly good picks (especially Jones, Lawrence). BJ Hill and Carter are the only others that are borderline as 3rd rounders.
We’re talking about a guy who claimed he didn’t know Rosas had a previous DUI, because he wasn’t the guy who signed him (like that didn’t come up over the last 2 months when considering firing the guy for a drunk hit and run?).
Please read my last post. gettleman put those guys those positions in 2018. So it wasn't like they was there for more than 2 year. So, try to state that there was a issue with the scouting program and that scout is not a systematic problem.
The Giants fired the regional scout and replaced the player development program. They understand Baker (and maybe others), were the symptom of a problem.
I wonder how it stacks up against the rest of the NFL, given the resources invested at CB, DL, and the OL.
Was just suggesting that with the past 12-month record we have on Baker, on and off the field, any prior concern that existed on him can not be possibly be overstated enough.
I wonder how it stacks up against the rest of the NFL, given the resources invested at CB, DL, and the OL.
4 CBs drafted in 3 drafts is hardly cluster drafting and 2 of them are essentially starters right now if you consider NCB a starter.
Beal and Baker have obviously produced 0 roi for different reasons and they are likely symptoms of scouting mistakes that should have been avoided, but not sure what their situations have to do with Ballentine or Holmes unless you think injuries or felonies are contagious.
If you view the cluster as all DBs and also count Love who shifted to S right away, that would mean 3 of the 5 starters at DB right now were drafted in the past 2 years, and had McKinney not gotten hurt it would have likely been 4/5. I think that's probably the more sensible way to view the cluster than just CB personally - and the entire point of clustering in the first place is that you expect some % of the guys selected to not work out.
The Giants fired the regional scout and replaced the player development program. They understand Baker (and maybe others), were the symptom of a problem.
- The Giants have revamped their scouting department personnel over the last 2 years
- They have invested in their technical and analytical capabilities for scouting
- The regional scout in charge of the SEC was fired
- They did turn over their player development department, and hire a PhD to oversee the operation
Picking a complete knuckled head on and off the field in the first round, who then went bonkers and arm robbed a poker game, very likely did factor into some of these moves.
I believe Gettleman when he says nothing came out in the evaluation. That's not the problem, the problem is should something have come out of it?
I give the Giants credit. The human being + leadership (including coaching who couldn't handle it) side of the equation heavily contributed to the Giants sucking the last several years. Baker, Snacks, Jenkins, OBJ, Flowers, Hart, Pugh, Tate etc.
It's clear the Giants saw a problem and are addressing them. But for some there's been so much air invested in denying the Giants have problems, it's impossible to see.
All the wood in the complex could be eaten away and the Giants could bring the Orkin man on full time, and some would still deny the Giants ever had a termite problem.
Was just suggesting that with the past 12-month record we have on Baker, on and off the field, any prior concern that existed on him can not be possibly be overstated enough.
Completely agree. His combine performance was an entirely public and massive red flag in that it showed how little effort he put into preparation for something important. That was highly troubling to me and probably the main reason I didn't like that trade up even though CB was a big need.
Yes, but at what cost? Getting nothing out of a #1 pick, getting nothing out of a 3rd round pick (the cost of selecting Beal in the supplemental draft) is the same thing that people have sworn Jerry Reese is the absolute Devil Incarnate for.
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is that while he appears decisive and quick to act, his cluster drafting, at CB in particular, is not producing much to date.
I wonder how it stacks up against the rest of the NFL, given the resources invested at CB, DL, and the OL.
4 CBs drafted in 3 drafts is hardly cluster drafting and 2 of them are essentially starters right now if you consider NCB a starter.
Beal and Baker have obviously produced 0 roi for different reasons and they are likely symptoms of scouting mistakes that should have been avoided, but not sure what their situations have to do with Ballentine or Holmes unless you think injuries or felonies are contagious.
If you view the cluster as all DBs and also count Love who shifted to S right away, that would mean 3 of the 5 starters at DB right now were drafted in the past 2 years, and had McKinney not gotten hurt it would have likely been 4/5. I think that's probably the more sensible way to view the cluster than just CB personally - and the entire point of clustering in the first place is that you expect some % of the guys selected to not work out.
It's actually six including Beal and Love. That's considerable investment and then add in the additional investments which further suggest they're not happy with the CB unit as a whole in Bradberry, Yiadom, etc. In my view, that speaks loudest in terms of the current state of the unit.
Character concerns and injury histories are part of the evaluation DG must factor in. While we've got current starters out of some of the picks, it remains to be seen if they're core pieces to build around. It's more by attrition right now with regards to Ballantine starting, I wouldn't expect him to hold the spot.
It's clear the Giants saw a problem and are addressing them. But for some there's been so much air invested in denying the Giants have problems, it's impossible to see.
All the wood in the complex could be eaten away and the Giants could bring the Orkin man on full time, and some would still deny the Giants ever had a termite problem.
This is where you lose me. They did have problems - and those problems began and grew under Reese and Ross. Who opposed their firings? Who didn't recognize those issues in 2017 or doesn't fully recognize the widespread flaws with the roster with benefit of hindsight?
While 90% of the posts on this forum from 2013-2017 were some version of "Eli/Coughlin/Gillbride are holding the organization back" that braintrust picked Ben McAdoo and Davis Webb as their future and secured those investments with one of the worst offensive lines in recent memory.
DG came in and fired Ross on day 1 and while he has changed a lot in the FO he didn't entirely clean house right away. He brought in that guy from CAR and changed the way they did the draft board and the drafting has improved. He also promoted Chris Petit who has been here for decades. They have changed some scouts each year as they continue to evolve the FO.
It would seem to me that over the past 3 years DG has been the Orkin man in your analogy and while there have been mixed results he's led the charge on trying to fix mistakes from both the previous regime (QB, OL, scouting, lockerroom, cap) and his own (Shurmur).
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the entire point of clustering in the first place is that you expect some % of the guys selected to not work out.
Yes, but at what cost? Getting nothing out of a #1 pick, getting nothing out of a 3rd round pick (the cost of selecting Beal in the supplemental draft) is the same thing that people have sworn Jerry Reese is the absolute Devil Incarnate for.
Jerry Reese was the devil incarnate for drafting less than 1 player per draft who made it to a 2nd contract for his last 5 or 6 years here. I believe from 2010 on the list was JPP and OBJ.
He didn't fail at cluster drafting 1 position, he failed at drafting period from the moment he hired Marc Ross.
It's actually six including Beal and Love. That's considerable investment and then add in the additional investments which further suggest they're not happy with the CB unit as a whole in Bradberry, Yiadom, etc. In my view, that speaks loudest in terms of the current state of the unit.
Character concerns and injury histories are part of the evaluation DG must factor in. While we've got current starters out of some of the picks, it remains to be seen if they're core pieces to build around. It's more by attrition right now with regards to Ballantine starting, I wouldn't expect him to hold the spot.
You specified "his cluster drafting, at CB in particular", which is 4 players. 1 of whom is a rookie who hasn't played a game yet.
Expanding to the 7 DB's drafted including safeties:
3 are entering this season as starters for the first time
1 would have been but is on IR (McKinney)
1 is on practice squad (Williamson)
Just spitballing here, but maybe we should see how they play this season before calculating their ROI. Call me old fashioned but we may even want to give them 2 seasons.
It would seem to me that over the past 3 years DG has been the Orkin man in your analogy and while there have been mixed results he's led the charge on trying to fix mistakes from both the previous regime (QB, OL, scouting, lockerroom, cap) and his own (Shurmur).
Mixed results? We'll have mixed results if the 2020 season is deemed a success, since the other two have been pretty bad. Like the judgment call on Baker, seems like every good decision is offset by a bad one.
Because a player played a bunch of games does not mean they are good at it. This heralded class of drafts classes are losing their luster..
There also seems to be a misunderstanding as to why cluster drafting is a thing in the first place. It's done precisely with the understanding that not every draft pick is going to work out and that unexpected things do happen - like injuries, global pandemics, and felonious armed robberies. So if the secondary does improve (unknown right now) this year it will be precisely because they clustered a lot of assets.
If every single discussion reduces down to "no results yet" what's the point of any discussion?
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In comment 14964900 Eric on Li said:
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the entire point of clustering in the first place is that you expect some % of the guys selected to not work out.
Yes, but at what cost? Getting nothing out of a #1 pick, getting nothing out of a 3rd round pick (the cost of selecting Beal in the supplemental draft) is the same thing that people have sworn Jerry Reese is the absolute Devil Incarnate for.
Jerry Reese was the devil incarnate for drafting less than 1 player per draft who made it to a 2nd contract for his last 5 or 6 years here. I believe from 2010 on the list was JPP and OBJ.
How many of them didn't make it because they couldn't play, and how many of them didn't make it because they got hurt.
Because its only been two years and there's already a list of players who aren't going to be back for a second contract.
being a GM isn't easy. Unfortunately, some fans here think it's very simple. Unforeseen circumstances, such as injuries, off field incidents and pure bad luck can ruin a whole year, if not more.
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It's clear the Giants saw a problem and are addressing them. But for some there's been so much air invested in denying the Giants have problems, it's impossible to see.
All the wood in the complex could be eaten away and the Giants could bring the Orkin man on full time, and some would still deny the Giants ever had a termite problem.
This is where you lose me. They did have problems - and those problems began and grew under Reese and Ross. Who opposed their firings? Who didn't recognize those issues in 2017 or doesn't fully recognize the widespread flaws with the roster with benefit of hindsight?
I'm not talking about Gettleman, I am talking about fans. I think Gettleman is very aware of the mistakes he inherited and has made. And to his great credit, he's not stubborn. He's willing to keep swinging.
I completely ignore everything Gettleman says, and only focus on what he does. He's focused heavily on fixing the line, fixing the secondary, fixing the culture, finding a bedrock head coach. He's shot a lot of blanks in those areas the last 3 years.
If there is nothing in the process to indicate a problem with Rosas and Baker, and in the same offseason they hire a full-time psychologist fire the player development, I don't take that as Gettleman did nothing wrong.
I take that as he did something really wrong -- he had a garbage program pre-and-post acquisition that missed two crazies. And counter to his words, his actions have indicated he gets it.
2019 - Jones, Lawrence, Ximines, Love, Ballentine, Slayton
Obviously all of them, even the 2018 guys, are still early to say for sure with the possible exception of Barkley who is probably a lock to extend.
The success of this era though will in large part be defined by the success of the 9 players above + Thomas/McKinney/Holmes. Combined that's basically half of the current starting lineup.
And obviously Jones above all others.
being a GM isn't easy. Unfortunately, some fans here think it's very simple. Unforeseen circumstances, such as injuries, off field incidents and pure bad luck can ruin a whole year, if not more.
5 of the 6 players who will log the most snaps in the secondary on Monday will be doing so for the first time in an opening game here (Peppers the only holdover from last year).
3 of those 6 (Holmes, Bradberry, Ryan) have never played a snap here.
Can we give these guys a few games before determining how much fruit has or hasn't been borne?
I'm not talking about Gettleman, I am talking about fans. I think Gettleman is very aware of the mistakes he inherited and has made. And to his great credit, he's not stubborn. He's willing to keep swinging.
I completely ignore everything Gettleman says, and only focus on what he does. He's focused heavily on fixing the line, fixing the secondary, fixing the culture, finding a bedrock head coach. He's shot a lot of blanks in those areas the last 3 years.
If there is nothing in the process to indicate a problem with Rosas and Baker, and in the same offseason they hire a full-time psychologist fire the player development, I don't take that as Gettleman did nothing wrong.
I take that as he did something really wrong -- he had a garbage program pre-and-post acquisition that missed two crazies. And counter to his words, his actions have indicated he gets it.
This I agree with entirely.
2019 - Jones, Lawrence, Ximines, Love, Ballentine, Slayton
Obviously all of them, even the 2018 guys, are still early to say for sure with the possible exception of Barkley who is probably a lock to extend.
The success of this era though will in large part be defined by the success of the 9 players above + Thomas/McKinney/Holmes. Combined that's basically half of the current starting lineup.
And obviously Jones above all others.
Good post.
Its really all about Jones and Thomas imv. If they cannot develop into stars this team will never sniff the playoffs during this era.
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I'm not talking about Gettleman, I am talking about fans. I think Gettleman is very aware of the mistakes he inherited and has made. And to his great credit, he's not stubborn. He's willing to keep swinging.
I completely ignore everything Gettleman says, and only focus on what he does. He's focused heavily on fixing the line, fixing the secondary, fixing the culture, finding a bedrock head coach. He's shot a lot of blanks in those areas the last 3 years.
If there is nothing in the process to indicate a problem with Rosas and Baker, and in the same offseason they hire a full-time psychologist fire the player development, I don't take that as Gettleman did nothing wrong.
I take that as he did something really wrong -- he had a garbage program pre-and-post acquisition that missed two crazies. And counter to his words, his actions have indicated he gets it.
This I agree with entirely.
Even if you agree with this (I don't entirely) there is no guarantee the changes DG has made solve the issue.
As fans I think we need to accept that we're dealing with humans and there is a human element to behavior that is not predictable - especially from a brief interview/assessment.
Which franchise has a structure or process in place so solid they have been spared player conduct issues? I suspect none. If they have it's luck that's bound to run out.
When you combine human nature with the violent nature of the game you're really walking a fine line if you think you can eliminate the misses entirely and still be competitive on field.
So, at best I'd say maybe DG has taken steps to correct where he perceived the failure to have taken place in the case of Baker and Rosas, but if one of the 2020 draft picks or free agent signings has an incident I wouldn't be surprised. Or the 2021 players or the 2022 players or the 2023 players....
The namesake of this thread had a really bad combine (which he then improved at his pro day). Both interviews (supposedly) and testing numbers (obviously public for all the world to see). The lack of preparation and commitment was a very big red flag to me when we picked him and I do think it's a positive to see the Giants org doing things to get better at all of their scouting processes. Not because I or anyone else could have predicted Baker would be an alleged armed robber but because any lack of commitment will make it harder to reach potential.
Obviously that won't eliminate off the field issues. David Diehl was never anything except and upstanding leader in the lockerroom and off the field he got a DUI. Athletes are people , people make mistakes.
If you include Beal as a 2019 3rd round pick (which you should, because he was) then the Giants used nearly half of their picks on CBs. Using 6 of 13 picks on CBs is pretty much the definition of a cluster draft.
Oversimplifying of course, but you do what you can to identify risks with the player and that goes on one axis and their talent gets plotted on the other.
At some point the talent is so blatant it outweighs the risks, but factored in there is the 3rd element to the graph - the team investment.
For example, the talent may be great but based on the risks you would only invest a 2nd or 3rd round pick (just as an example).
And even in this crude example, if you do your best to uncover all the evidence, and predict what you can, it still won't be perfect.
My main point was yes, take steps to avoid misses as a team and do the most due diligence as is possible, but as fans we should be prepared these won't be the last times players get cut due to conduct - no matter how thorough the team feels they are in this area.
If you include Beal as a 2019 3rd round pick (which you should, because he was) then the Giants used nearly half of their picks on CBs. Using 6 of 13 picks on CBs is pretty much the definition of a cluster draft.
Baker
Beal
Love (S)
Ballentine
that's 4/13?
Oversimplifying of course, but you do what you can to identify risks with the player and that goes on one axis and their talent gets plotted on the other.
At some point the talent is so blatant it outweighs the risks, but factored in there is the 3rd element to the graph - the team investment.
For example, the talent may be great but based on the risks you would only invest a 2nd or 3rd round pick (just as an example).
And even in this crude example, if you do your best to uncover all the evidence, and predict what you can, it still won't be perfect.
My main point was yes, take steps to avoid misses as a team and do the most due diligence as is possible, but as fans we should be prepared these won't be the last times players get cut due to conduct - no matter how thorough the team feels they are in this area.
Definitely. But the specific context I'd add from the Baker pick however is that appropriately so DG was loud about needing to fix the lockerroom. We weren't in the same position as a team like BAL, or PIT, or SEA, or NE where there was a culture of success already developed. We weren't yet in a good position to roll the dice on a risky talent, and if we were it had to be for a no-brainer on the field, which aside from the off the field stuff Baker turned out not to be.
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is an issue at all. It's just that the amount of resources that has been expended in the secondary has not borne much fruit.
being a GM isn't easy. Unfortunately, some fans here think it's very simple. Unforeseen circumstances, such as injuries, off field incidents and pure bad luck can ruin a whole year, if not more.
5 of the 6 players who will log the most snaps in the secondary on Monday will be doing so for the first time in an opening game here (Peppers the only holdover from last year).
3 of those 6 (Holmes, Bradberry, Ryan) have never played a snap here.
Can we give these guys a few games before determining how much fruit has or hasn't been borne?
I don't understand your point. Regardless of who is starting on Monday, thre have been a lot of resources poured in that position. That was my point.
And you are missing quite a few players that were signed to FA contracts, about 7 of them in the last 2 years.
the 2 highest priced veterans this regime has signed in their 3 offseasons were Bradberry a few months ago and Ryan last week.
You are correct that they have invested in the secondary, but we haven't seen those investments yet to determine if they've paid off.
Put another way, here are the total starts as a NYG of our top 6 DB's heading into the Steelers game.
11 - Peppers
5 - Love
2 - Ballentine
0 - Bradberry
0 - Ryan
0 - Holmes
"the 2 highest priced veterans this regime has signed in their 3 offseasons were Bradberry a few months ago and Ryan last week. "
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...they would have had 13 if they didn't pick Beal in the supplemental draft.
If you include Beal as a 2019 3rd round pick (which you should, because he was) then the Giants used nearly half of their picks on CBs. Using 6 of 13 picks on CBs is pretty much the definition of a cluster draft.
Baker
Beal
Love (S)
Ballentine
that's 4/13?
Gettlman traded a 2, a 4 and a 5 to trade up to pick Baker. 4 players, 6 picks.
Personally, I think the culture crusade was a little misguided and silly. My view is stable leadership and credibility at the coaching level could have succeeded with a team of OBJ, JPP, Snacks, DRC, Jenkins etc. I think the Giants had back-to-back bad coaches and the players smelled it.
In short you can survive with assholes if you have strong coaching. That group doesn’t touch the level of asshole Coughlin succeeded with.
What lies beneath Rosas’s and Baker’s behavior might be deeper, and something the team needs to be better equipped to identify and address. Rosas has a substance abuse issue, and the fact Gettleman said he didn’t know about it because the last guy signed him is a problem. If a guy in your roster has a DUI on his record, you better know about it, and it better be something you have your development team talk about with him from time-to-time.
Who knows with Baker, but he certainly exhibited some anger and authority issues. Snapping back at Jenkins about practicing on camera, whispers of not prepping for the combine, not taking well to coaching. Could be nothing, or could be a guy exhibiting a real problem. People with anger and authority issues most certainly have a higher propensity to act out inappropriately when they feel aggrieved.
The Giants admitted they knew about it.
The Giants admitted they knew about it.
I’m going to assume Gettleman just flubbed the response, and that the full Giants brass considered his previous DUI and his latest alleged incident when releasing him.
I can’t wrap my head around a scenario where Gettleman truly didn’t know the guy they just cut for allegedly going full Gary Busey, had a previous DUI.
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In comment 14964311 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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With this franchise in quite some time.
Losing 1st rounds picks like this can really hurt a franchise.
Every team has first-round busts. This was bad, but it's not a disaster. If Jones busts, that's about 10x worse. If Dexter Lawrence busts, that's about 3x worse. If Jones is the starter for 10 years and Lawrence makes a couple of Pro Bowls, then it'lll still be a successful first round, even with Baker self-immolating.
Having multiple first round picks makes it seem like it's not so bad.
We've been through this before. When you lose 1st round picks such as due to injury, you create a talent drought that you feel for years. Most likely they will have to spend another first round pick on a corner now. That's a first round pick that can't be spent at a different position.
Its like being stuck on a treadmill. You're not really improving, you're chasing to fill that position.
If you look at the first rounds of the last 10 drafts you'll see a lot of guys who never amounted to anything. Some of those franchises were hobbled, some not so much. The Pats don't seem to be nailing their first-round picks routinely, but they're the Pats, nobody cares.
1st round draft choice for an NFL team and he is robbing people at gunpoint in his spare time. Wow ....