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NFT: I was wrong about Pat Riley (Knicks perspective)

Sean : 9/12/2020 8:38 am
Back in the mid 1990’s I hated Pat Riley. It was the height of my Knick fandom and I absolutely loved those Knick teams eliminating the Heat in 1998, 1999 & 2000 - all decisive games on Miami’s home court. I felt Riley screwed the Knicks and was weak to leave how he did.

I was wrong. Riley was right to leave. The Knicks JVG era was a result of Riley, those teams played like Riley. JVG was taught by Riley.

Riley left because he wanted more control, the Knicks wouldn’t give it to him and have arguably been the worst franchise in all of sports since the early 2000’s. Meanwhile, Riley is still in Miami building winners. He was 100% correct to leave the incompetent Knicks and imagine if the Knicks gave him the control he wanted. A massive missed opportunity.
It wasnt just control  
nygiants16 : 9/12/2020 8:41 am : link
He wanted part ownership as well..
RE: It wasnt just control  
Sean : 9/12/2020 8:42 am : link
In comment 14967961 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
He wanted part ownership as well..


They could have worked something out. The Knicks were arrogant (as they usually are).
I too was pissed when  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 9/12/2020 8:43 am : link
Riles left. It was a smart move for him, as he got the control he wanted.

All, there was no chance in hell him & James Dolan would have coexisted had Riley stuck around in NY.
RE: RE: It wasnt just control  
nygiants16 : 9/12/2020 8:58 am : link
In comment 14967963 Sean said:
Quote:
In comment 14967961 nygiants16 said:


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He wanted part ownership as well..



They could have worked something out. The Knicks were arrogant (as they usually are).


Not a lot of teams would do it, i am not absolving the knicks and i think if he didnt aak for ownership they would of given him the power
Hadn’t really thought this...  
trueblueinpw : 9/12/2020 9:01 am : link
But since you put it that way, yeah, you’re right. I know this from personal experience, everything you think you know and read about Dolan being a dysfunctional lunatic asshole is completely correct. In fact, he’s probably worse than people think. He has ruined both teams and Riley was right to believe he’d never be more successful there w/o a piece of the team.
Pat Riley has one of the greatest sports resumes  
arniefez : 9/12/2020 9:16 am : link
in history. The Knicks were idiots for letting him get away. Kind of like the Giants were idiots for letting Parcells leave. When you have a coach that is at the highest elite level you need to figure out a way to keep them happy.
RE: Pat Riley has one of the greatest sports resumes  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 9/12/2020 9:37 am : link
In comment 14967974 arniefez said:
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in history. The Knicks were idiots for letting him get away. Kind of like the Giants were idiots for letting Parcells leave. When you have a coach that is at the highest elite level you need to figure out a way to keep them happy.


Huh? Parcells retired. It's not like the Giants let him walk.
RE: RE: Pat Riley has one of the greatest sports resumes  
jnoble : 9/12/2020 10:24 am : link
In comment 14967986 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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In comment 14967974 arniefez said:


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in history. The Knicks were idiots for letting him get away. Kind of like the Giants were idiots for letting Parcells leave. When you have a coach that is at the highest elite level you need to figure out a way to keep them happy.



Huh? Parcells retired. It's not like the Giants let him walk.


Parcells almost left the Giants to go to Atlanta right after winning the SB in '86 and they were able to pull him back in. I forget what his issue was. Great coach but a flake who didn't show much loyalty to any of his employers or fans
Parcells was going to leave after 86 to the Falcons?  
Sean : 9/12/2020 10:43 am : link
Geez. Didn’t know that. Imagine even considering a move like that.
RE: RE: RE: Pat Riley has one of the greatest sports resumes  
TrueBlue56 : 9/12/2020 10:48 am : link
In comment 14968012 jnoble said:
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In comment 14967986 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:


Quote:


In comment 14967974 arniefez said:


Quote:


in history. The Knicks were idiots for letting him get away. Kind of like the Giants were idiots for letting Parcells leave. When you have a coach that is at the highest elite level you need to figure out a way to keep them happy.



Huh? Parcells retired. It's not like the Giants let him walk.



Parcells almost left the Giants to go to Atlanta right after winning the SB in '86 and they were able to pull him back in. I forget what his issue was. Great coach but a flake who didn't show much loyalty to any of his employers or fans


Parcells never let the fact go that the giants were going to replace him with schnellenberg. He held that against George young for many years
Parcells was a bit of a conundrum  
DieHard : 9/12/2020 11:08 am : link
For a guy who always said that "oversensitive" players wouldn't last very long with him, he sure was oversensitive towards GMs and ownership in just about every head coaching gig he ever had.

I can understand not being happy about someone like Schellenberger being rumored to take your job, but after a 3-12-1 season, what would you expect? On the plus side, it did goad him into taking full charge of the team, and the rest is history.
Whenever people here talk about millennial “divas”  
bceagle05 : 9/12/2020 11:13 am : link
I always bring up Parcells, the greatest diva of them all. Still love the guy though.
A few other Parcells notes  
Sean : 9/12/2020 11:18 am : link
From Accorsi’s book:

-Parcells was set to be named NYG head coach in 1997, but George Young had already verbally offered Fassel the job and Wellington was not going to change course after that.

-Parcells met with ownership (I believe) prior to the NYG-DAL game in 2006 to discuss their upcoming GM vacancy.
It wasn't just Riley  
Tony in Tampa : 9/12/2020 11:19 am : link
Checkets was an architect for those 90s teams and Dolan drove him out too. I guess he wanted more yes men.
RE: It wasn't just Riley  
nygiants16 : 9/12/2020 11:34 am : link
In comment 14968043 Tony in Tampa said:
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Checkets was an architect for those 90s teams and Dolan drove him out too. I guess he wanted more yes men.


Checketts was drove out?? he was awful when he left...
nygiants16..  
Sean : 9/12/2020 11:38 am : link
Please elaborate. Checketts was fantastic.
RE: nygiants16..  
nygiants16 : 9/12/2020 11:48 am : link
In comment 14968055 Sean said:
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Please elaborate. Checketts was fantastic.


By 2001 the team was old and run down, jist lost in the 1st round, just fired grunfield 2 yeara prior..

I also believe he was running the rangers and they were awful with a really high payroll..

it wasnt like he waa firdd after 94..he had a lot of powrr there
Riley  
TyreeHelmet : 9/12/2020 11:55 am : link
Is there a bigger mistake in sports than the Knicks letting Riley walk? The 2 franchises couldn’t have gone in more different directions.
nygiants16  
Sean : 9/12/2020 11:56 am : link
I don’t remember when he left.

Was he responsible for the Ewing trade and Allan Houston max contract? I believe he was gone prior and that’s where I would point to the downturn. Trading Sprewell for Van Horn further compounded the problem.

The team was old and likely down after the 2000 ECF loss to Indiana, but trading Ewing for the looks of garbage they got back really set them back. Glenn Rice, Luc Longley & Travis Knight. What a brutal return.
RE: nygiants16  
nygiants16 : 9/12/2020 11:58 am : link
In comment 14968067 Sean said:
Quote:
I don’t remember when he left.

Was he responsible for the Ewing trade and Allan Houston max contract? I believe he was gone prior and that’s where I would point to the downturn. Trading Sprewell for Van Horn further compounded the problem.

The team was old and likely down after the 2000 ECF loss to Indiana, but trading Ewing for the looks of garbage they got back really set them back. Glenn Rice, Luc Longley & Travis Knight. What a brutal return.


I dont remember if he was responsible for the ewing trade..
Checketts made the ewing deal  
nygiants16 : 9/12/2020 12:02 pm : link
..
RE: Checketts made the ewing deal  
Sean : 9/12/2020 12:16 pm : link
In comment 14968071 nygiants16 said:
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..


I stand corrected. He helped contribute to the downfall.

Grunfeld made great moves bringing in Houston, Sprewell & Camby which gave the Knicks a much needed jolt of youth in the late 90’s.
The Ewing deal was the first  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 9/12/2020 12:34 pm : link
sign things were going to spiral badly.
RE: Checketts made the ewing deal  
Jim in Fairfax : 9/12/2020 12:36 pm : link
In comment 14968071 nygiants16 said:
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..

No, Scott Layden made the Ewing deal.
RE: A few other Parcells notes  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 9/12/2020 12:37 pm : link
In comment 14968042 Sean said:
Quote:
From Accorsi’s book:

-Parcells was set to be named NYG head coach in 1997, but George Young had already verbally offered Fassel the job and Wellington was not going to change course after that.

-Parcells met with ownership (I believe) prior to the NYG-DAL game in 2006 to discuss their upcoming GM vacancy.


If Young had a cell phone, Parcells is our coach in '97.
RE: RE: Checketts made the ewing deal  
nygiants16 : 9/12/2020 12:52 pm : link
In comment 14968095 Jim in Fairfax said:
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In comment 14968071 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


..


No, Scott Layden made the Ewing deal.


Who was president?
RE: RE: RE: Checketts made the ewing deal  
Jim in Fairfax : 9/12/2020 1:41 pm : link
In comment 14968117 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 14968095 Jim in Fairfax said:


Quote:


In comment 14968071 nygiants16 said:


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..


No, Scott Layden made the Ewing deal.



Who was president?

Checketts was President of MSG at that point. Layden was head of basketball operations. It was his baby.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Checketts made the ewing deal  
nygiants16 : 9/12/2020 1:47 pm : link
In comment 14968146 Jim in Fairfax said:
Quote:
In comment 14968117 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


In comment 14968095 Jim in Fairfax said:


Quote:


In comment 14968071 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


..


No, Scott Layden made the Ewing deal.



Who was president?


Checketts was President of MSG at that point. Layden was head of basketball operations. It was his baby.


There is an article with quotes from checketts saying HIS regret was trading ewing but he did it for Patrick oit of respect
This is a good case study of why we shouldn't jump to opinions  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/12/2020 7:24 pm : link
even obvious ones. Riley's demands seemed absolutely preposterous at the time, but now make a whole lotta sense. The only way he could guarantee little Jimmy would let him run the operation the way he wanted. He knew it wasn't going to happen, but hey you never know. Never hurts to ask.
RE: This is a good case study of why we shouldn't jump to opinions  
Jim in Fairfax : 9/12/2020 8:15 pm : link
In comment 14968327 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
even obvious ones. Riley's demands seemed absolutely preposterous at the time, but now make a whole lotta sense. The only way he could guarantee little Jimmy would let him run the operation the way he wanted. He knew it wasn't going to happen, but hey you never know. Never hurts to ask.

Dolan wasn’t involved with the Knicks during Riley’s time. Riley simply wanted to run basketball operations, and Dave Checkets wasn’t prepared to give Riley his job.
RE: RE: This is a good case study of why we shouldn't jump to opinions  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/12/2020 8:51 pm : link
In comment 14968357 Jim in Fairfax said:
Quote:
In comment 14968327 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


even obvious ones. Riley's demands seemed absolutely preposterous at the time, but now make a whole lotta sense. The only way he could guarantee little Jimmy would let him run the operation the way he wanted. He knew it wasn't going to happen, but hey you never know. Never hurts to ask.


Dolan wasn’t involved with the Knicks during Riley’s time. Riley simply wanted to run basketball operations, and Dave Checkets wasn’t prepared to give Riley his job.


Thanks for clarifying. Where was Daddy Dolan during all this? He was the ultimate decision maker at that point no? I don't know all that much as I was young at the time. Just bitter I went from a die-hard Knicks fan to don't even watch anymore. Of course that's not all Dolan's fault, don't really like the way they took the game in the NBA.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Checketts made the ewing deal  
Jim in Fairfax : 9/12/2020 9:04 pm : link
In comment 14968156 nygiants16 said:
Quote:


There is an article with quotes from checketts saying HIS regret was trading ewing but he did it for Patrick oit of respect

I’m sure that the decision to trade the face of the franchise was ultimately made by Checketts and Dolan. But once the decision was made Layden was the guy who actually engineered the trade. He’s the guy who decided to take on Glen Rice’s awful contract, which then begat Shandon Anderson and Howard Eisleys bad contracts.
RE: RE: RE: This is a good case study of why we shouldn't jump to opinions  
Jim in Fairfax : 9/12/2020 10:09 pm : link
In comment 14968374 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:

Thanks for clarifying. Where was Daddy Dolan during all this? He was the ultimate decision maker at that point no? I don't know all that much as I was young at the time. Just bitter I went from a die-hard Knicks fan to don't even watch anymore. Of course that's not all Dolan's fault, don't really like the way they took the game in the NBA.

The Knicks were purchased in 1994 by Cablevision & ITT Corps, which was a year before Riley departed. James Dolan’s father Charles became CEO of Madison Square Garden Corp, but stayed out of decision making for basketball and hockey operations. Dave Checketts, as team President had full authority and did the decision making. In 1999, Charles Dolan bought out ITT and took full ownership of the team.

In 2001, James Dolan wanted to start running things and Checketts was fired.
Checketts resigned..  
Sean : 9/13/2020 7:44 am : link
He must’ve saw the writing on the wall. I linked an article from when it happened.
Link - ( New Window )
My fault...  
trueblueinpw : 9/13/2020 11:53 am : link
Yeah, I always think the Knicks sucking is only or has always been Dolans fault. While he certainly is a world class asshole, I suppose it would have been impossible for that to have been JDs fault.
The Parcells almost thing in 97 was always interesting  
Optimus-NY : 9/13/2020 3:29 pm : link
GY would have NEVER hired him back if he could help it and if Bill came, GY would have resigned.
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