And that includes Erick Flowers.I was looking forward to see how he would play at Center but tonight was as bad as it gets. I get that it was against one of the best DLines in the NFL but that performance was unacceptable. I’d like to give him another week to see if he improved but I wouldn’t be surprised to see Pulley start next week. The play linked below is just a small sample of what he looked like tonight...
Gates - (
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Hypothetically speaking, if he was healthy, would you want to sign him and start him or would you prefer to ride with Gates through thick and thin?
Hopefully the line gels and this was by far the low point. Because even incremental progress and an adjustment for level competition isn’t getting this to an acceptable level.
I know you are struggling to understand.
Hypothetically speaking, if he was healthy, would you want to sign him and start him or would you prefer to ride with Gates through thick and thin?
Ride with Gates unless he doesn't grow.
I am still astonished that you are panicking like this after one game and THIS opponent.
What did you expect? The Steelers are known for confusing the hell out of veteran centers. I talked about this even in my preview.
14.
You are avoiding the question now.
Garrett and Colombo - who coached in Dallas - made the decision that Gates is the best long-term option.
You on the other hand, want immediate results, no matter how unrealistic they are.
wow, you really have your head in the sand on this. Harp on the lack of practices all you want, this battle was lost BEFORE the summer. It's the result of an organizational failure to rebuild the line going back 3 offseasons.
Gates may have been the best option, but that doesn't make him a good option. But to the BBI fanboys who just blindly defend everything this team does, he's gonna be the next kevin mawae!
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The only FA C I know of that has any sort of a positive track record is Justin Britt (I'm not counting Halapio).
Hypothetically speaking, if he was healthy, would you want to sign him and start him or would you prefer to ride with Gates through thick and thin?
Ride with Gates unless he doesn't grow.
I am still astonished that you are panicking like this after one game and THIS opponent.
What did you expect? The Steelers are known for confusing the hell out of veteran centers. I talked about this even in my preview.
Let's hope it's an aberration. The Bears front won't be any easier.
If Gates doesn't grow and this season falls by the wayside, the decision to go into the season with an inexperienced Gates or a mediocre veteran in Pulley will be one of the main criticisms of Gettleman.
- Only 5 backs have had less than 10 yards on 15 carries since 1970
- First time the Giants have had negative rush yards in the first half since 2002
- It took Barkley 40+ mins to reach positive yards
There is a lot more at play than the Steeler having a good run defense. The Giants pound-for-pound had one of their worst ground performances this century.
I’m all for positive take always, but there actually have to be some to support that. The Giants got stomped by a much better team.
Anything beyond that is total fantasy.
Anak. Of course the Bears are going to give us problems. We're a REBUILDING ball club with a brand new offensive line. This is going to be ongoing issue.
Anyone who knows anything about football knew this was a terrible team for us to face to start the season.
The Bears defense will give us problems. Their offense shouldn't.
We finally have a plan on the OL. The center position might not be figured out just yet. Let’s give the guy an actual minute at the position to see if he can be a player.
I heard someone earlier say “even if Andrew Thomas sucks tonight, he could still be an all pro, I don’t care.”
Yet - we are ready to cut Gates after 1 start against the best DL in football. You guys have officially jumped the shark.
Anak. Of course the Bears are going to give us problems. We're a REBUILDING ball club with a brand new offensive line. This is going to be ongoing issue.
Anyone who knows anything about football knew this was a terrible team for us to face to start the season.
The Bears defense will give us problems. Their offense shouldn't.
Our run defense was staunch until the 4th quarter. I expect us to stop the Bears game and force Trubinsky to win it.
To beat the Bears, Jones must be smarter with the ball. Lastly, we need to make sure mental errors are reduced. It is a learning process for sure.
Yet - we are ready to cut Gates after 1 start against the best DL in football. You guys have officially jumped the shark.
One is the fourth overall pick coming off a successful three years in the SEC playing the Left Tackle position.
The other is an undrafted free agent who has no experience playing Center.
It's a false equivalency, Ryan.
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The only FA C I know of that has any sort of a positive track record is Justin Britt (I'm not counting Halapio).
Hypothetically speaking, if he was healthy, would you want to sign him and start him or would you prefer to ride with Gates through thick and thin?
Ride with Gates unless he doesn't grow.
I am still astonished that you are panicking like this after one game and THIS opponent.
What did you expect? The Steelers are known for confusing the hell out of veteran centers. I talked about this even in my preview.
Come on Eric, you're astonished? Really? After the OL has sucked for what, 8 or 9 straight years? With some of the absolute worst center play in the NFL the past 2 years?
And you are astonished that the first-time center who we've heard looks great actually looked horrible?
It's fine to be optimistic, but please cool it with you must not be smart stuff just because because we're concerned that our project center played terribly.
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In comment 14972441 Anakim said:
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The only FA C I know of that has any sort of a positive track record is Justin Britt (I'm not counting Halapio).
Hypothetically speaking, if he was healthy, would you want to sign him and start him or would you prefer to ride with Gates through thick and thin?
Ride with Gates unless he doesn't grow.
I am still astonished that you are panicking like this after one game and THIS opponent.
What did you expect? The Steelers are known for confusing the hell out of veteran centers. I talked about this even in my preview.
Come on Eric, you're astonished? Really? After the OL has sucked for what, 8 or 9 straight years? With some of the absolute worst center play in the NFL the past 2 years?
And you are astonished that the first-time center who we've heard looks great actually looked horrible?
It's fine to be optimistic, but please cool it with you must not be smart stuff just because because we're concerned that our project center played terribly.
Sorry, should have proof-read. I am surprised you are astonished that we are concerned that the first-time center who we've heard looks great actually looked horrible.
Draft picks don’t mean shit anymore. We’ve done that experiment plenty. If you can play, you can play. If you can’t, you can’t. Plenty of OL around the league are good players that were low draft picks or undrafted. I’m not saying Gates is going to be awesome. Just let the guy play a few games before we start to panic.
The best OL we ever had had 3 guys that were basically afterthoughts in the draft. And I can guarantee you that Shaun O’Hara got lit up in his first start at center.
Give it some fucking time.
Draft picks don’t mean shit anymore. We’ve done that experiment plenty. If you can play, you can play. If you can’t, you can’t. Plenty of OL around the league are good players that were low draft picks or undrafted. I’m not saying Gates is going to be awesome. Just let the guy play a few games before we start to panic.
The best OL we ever had had 3 guys that were basically afterthoughts in the draft. And I can guarantee you that Shaun O’Hara got lit up in his first start at center.
Give it some fucking time.
I'm sure most rookies got lit up in their first start, but there's a difference between being lit up as the fourth overall pick and being lit up as an UDFA who has never played the position before.
What we do know are the odds of an UDFA (and making a position change) panning out are quite low. We also know this GM has taken 3 swings at center, and the previous two didn’t pan out.
Now maybe Colombo + Judge can beat the odds and make something improbable happen. Maybe they can do that with Fleming too.
But again, all we know is the Giants got taken to the shed by a much better team. Have all the faith you want things will get better. But nothing tonight really supports that.
It makes perfect sense.
14 practices. 14. That's never happened before.
We have three new starters, one center who has never played the position and a rookie.
We're facing three all-pros in the front seven of the Steelers defense and their other front seven guys are damn good too.
I can't help you anymore than explain it that way.
Remember all the others team had 14 practices too.
Seahawks - 5 new additions to the Oline, OG Damien Lewis (third-round), OT Cedric Ogbuehi (Jaguars), OC BJ Finney (Steelers), OT Brandon Shell (Jets). Which 2 started this Sunday?? I would say they played amazing??
Jets - 5 new additions, Which 4 started!! and one was a ROOKIE too! OT George Fant (Seahawks), OC Connor McGovern (Broncos), OG Greg Van Roten (Panthers), OT Mekhi Becton (first-round) They did ok..
Dolphins - 5 new additions, OT Austin Jackson (first-round), OG Robert Hunt (second-round), OG Erick Flowers (Redskins), OC Ted Karras. Which 1 ROOKIE started and 2 others as well. They didn't do to bad. had 87 yds on the ground & 191 passing yds against a real good Pats Def.
Broncos - 2 new additions which both started and one is a rookie. CENTER! at that.. smh.
Lions - 2 new additions, which both are starting and one is a ROOKIE?! They did very well without a weapon in Golladay?!
Need I go on..
Gates may end up being a really good player. He may end up being a bust. He may end up being something in between.
But this was his FIRST game as a center at any level. He had no preseason. He was facing one of the best defensive fronts in football and one of the most complicated. I talked about this in the game preview.
This shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone.
But you think that a guy who has never played the position, who was even the starting center at the start of camp... just 14 practices ago... should have done a good job against the Steelers.
Holy shit.
I'm done arguing with you guys on this. It's as if you have absolutely no understand of competitive sports.
Who were the Giants playing dumbass? Do you know anything about the Steelers front seven?
Who were the Giants playing dumbass? Do you know anything about the Steelers front seven?
Gates is a hard worker and he'll shore up some of his technique and decisions by next week even.
For all the reasons you keep posting. And it could be the UDFA lineman who’s never played center just isn’t good enough, the journeyman right tackle just isn’t good enough, and the underachieving right guard just isn’t good enough.
You’re the one claiming things will definitely be better. What evidence did tonight provide you to support that?
For all the reasons you keep posting. And it could be the UDFA lineman who’s never played center just isn’t good enough, the journeyman right tackle just isn’t good enough, and the underachieving right guard just isn’t good enough.
You’re the one claiming things will definitely be better. What evidence did tonight provide you to support that?
(1) Thomas looks like the real deal at LT.
(2) Coaches and former players have said Hernandez is having his best camp and looks poised for a big year.
(3) Colombo really likes Gates.
(4) Zeitler has a proven record as a one of the better guards in the NFL and doesn't have any injury issues this year and is still in his prime.
(5) Fleming ideally is a swing tackle, but he has started a lot of games in this league. Peart will eventually take over.
They love Lemieux and Peart (back-ups). They like Slade. Our back-up situation is better than it has been in a decade.
Those are my reasons.
Would it surprise me if they have to bench Gates? No. He's the real question mark. But Garrett and Colombo know what a good center looks like. Right?
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3 cracks at free agency, and the sell-off of several veterans for picks....and still a big huge gaping hole in the offensive line. Pure incompetence.
The line is going to be fine.
I used to think Giants fans were smart.
I don't think that anymore.
Reading that Game Thread the first thought that came into my mind was how we went from John Madden calling us "The smartest fan base in the NFL" to almost the most moronic and idiotic fan base in the NFL.
You had a ton of fake profiles on that thread though. Posters we have never seen post before with accounts made 2-3 years ago. It was dupe town on there.
We have seen this play out 8 straight years. A horrivle start woth a horrible offensive line. Fans noting the positives and how they are surely going to grow dirong the season. Obviously all the negative fans are just stupid and dont really understand football. Next thing we know we are out of playoff contention by november again and we start this whole thing again the year after...
What many of us saw tonight is more of the same from the last several years. A completely outclassed unit that, even considering the level of competition got epically destroyed.
Over the last several years, coaching, continuity, familiarity, experience— were all supposed to buoy the unit eventually. And eventually lack of talent always sunk it.
I think the chances Gates, Fleming, and Hernandez all settle in as quality starters is quite low. I think it’s a talent gap, and no coaching is going to hurdle. Would love to be wrong.
Gates may end up being a really good player. He may end up being a bust. He may end up being something in between.
But this was his FIRST game as a center at any level. He had no preseason. He was facing one of the best defensive fronts in football and one of the most complicated. I talked about this in the game preview.
This shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone.
But you think that a guy who has never played the position, who was even the starting center at the start of camp... just 14 practices ago... should have done a good job against the Steelers.
Holy shit.
I'm done arguing with you guys on this. It's as if you have absolutely no understand of competitive sports.
Wow Eric. How about quit the name calling? I understand WHY Gates didn’t play well. You’ve said it enough for goodness sake. I don’t understand why you need to lash out at fans that are concerned that for the third year in a row a player with extremely limited experience at a key position is starting, with the same predictable result. In my opinion it’s very concerning. But again, since you run the site, feel free to lash out because my opinion is different from yours.
Now you want to scapegoat and run off a UDFA who both Colombo and Garret trusted who is a OT learning center bc he struggled in the first game?!!
You do realize your stupid ass expectations and your anger for the Giants not meeting those expectations is on you right?
I'm with Eric, Giants fans have passed the torch to others as smart football fans.
I'm embarrassed.
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With all due respect, your take on this is unbelievably stupid.
Gates may end up being a really good player. He may end up being a bust. He may end up being something in between.
But this was his FIRST game as a center at any level. He had no preseason. He was facing one of the best defensive fronts in football and one of the most complicated. I talked about this in the game preview.
This shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone.
But you think that a guy who has never played the position, who was even the starting center at the start of camp... just 14 practices ago... should have done a good job against the Steelers.
Holy shit.
I'm done arguing with you guys on this. It's as if you have absolutely no understand of competitive sports.
Wow Eric. How about quit the name calling? I understand WHY Gates didn’t play well. You’ve said it enough for goodness sake. I don’t understand why you need to lash out at fans that are concerned that for the third year in a row a player with extremely limited experience at a key position is starting, with the same predictable result. In my opinion it’s very concerning. But again, since you run the site, feel free to lash out because my opinion is different from yours.
lol you float out there a stupid take that deserves criticism and then whine when you get attacked, what a little bitch.
please stop posting, you suck at it
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That we have had so many horrendous linemen since he was drafted btw, cause in any decent O-line he would be thebwealest link by far.
please stop posting, you suck at it
You think Hernandez is actually good?
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3 cracks at free agency, and the sell-off of several veterans for picks....and still a big huge gaping hole in the offensive line. Pure incompetence.
The line is going to be fine.
I used to think Giants fans were smart.
I don't think that anymore.
Eric— with all due respect, how do you know the o-line is going to be “fine”? I mean I personally am willing to have some hope they they’ll gel over the season with the right guidance from Garrett, Judge, etc. ... but I think it is far from a certainty and in my eyes seems more unlikely than likely that they will once again be a bottom 1/3 o-line in the league. I mean they looked absolutely putrid in the run game tonight they are a long way from “fine” at this point (again not to say they can’t right the ship, anything is possible).
Who were the Giants playing dumbass? Do you know anything about the Steelers front seven?
Wow.. Didn't think you would stoop that low, especially being the Site Administrator.. But it's all good, maybe you never heard, agree to disagree phrase?
Here's the thing, you still not getting my point. I think we all get your point, it's the Steelers Front seven the Giants went up against. ok ok got it.. BTW that front seven missed the last 2 postseasons, didn't make the playoffs? But yet you make it sound like they are invincible? Let's just crown them SB champs this year?
My point is the Giants Oline still shouldn't have looked & played that bad in today's season opener?! At least not that horrible. Not with the Best RB in the game imo. .5 yds?? Was it personnel? Was it coaching? It doesn't add up. Tell me what other nfl teams Oline that would have done worse against the "STEELERS" front seven then the Giants Oline did today?? If you can, then you win. Fine.. but I don't think so, I mentioned a few teams above that re-hauled their Olines with rookies included and I still don't think they would have done as bad as the Giants Oline did today IMO. It was bad. It just doesn't bode well especially since the Giants have had several seasons already with horrible offensive lines. It's whats really concerning most Giants fans right now.. Can you blame them??
Now, Gates might end up being better, who knows, but right now it isn't good. (and yes, 1 game vs a very good D) but... you know, second guessing and all...
They lost by 10 points, and despite trailing the entire game, they didn't even get 300 yards and they had less than 50 yards rushing.
Some of the takes here are brutal
I think he needs to get removed from this
Did people really get excited when the Giants signed O’Hara from a bad Cleveland team, who had actually played G much more than C.
I look at the positive - Thomas was very good in pass protection. Would have liked to see them try to run behind him and Hernandez vs the other way
But the biggest thing is that everyone appears to hold fast to the idea that people are static, that teams are static, and that nobody has the capacity for growth. But everyone is wrong (although, being static, I don't believe they have the capacity to recognize that and change their minds).
We need a better offensive line. But that's another 7 year issue.
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We need a better offensive line. But that's another 7 year issue.
True and a much easier and quicker fix.
There will be plenty of better fans if the team starts winning. Just how it works.
On a positive note, Thomas looked really good.
14.
You are avoiding the question now.
Garrett and Colombo - who coached in Dallas - made the decision that Gates is the best long-term option.
You on the other hand, want immediate results, no matter how unrealistic they are.
I don't want to speak for Enzo, but I think the point is, the options didn't need to be Gates, Pulley, Lemieux, Haycraft, or Halapio.
We didn't have to trade our original 3rd round pick for a free agent in the middle of a season where we were already 2-6.
I'll tack on that we didn't need to give a JAG like Mayo anything more than the league minimum, which might have allowed DG to pursue an experienced OC upgrade in FA.
Your point about the 14 practices is valid, and Garrett and Colombo may have decided that Gates was the best of that bunch, but it doesn't wash away having a very risky pool of OC prospects on the roster for those 14 practices and giving Garrett/Colombo pretty rough options to choose from. If anything, it only served to expose what was already a very precarious situation at OC.
I'm hopeful that Lemieux emerges as the OC by the end of the season, and I think Gates can provide a lot of value as the 6th OL, who can fill in at any spot on the line as well as TE in heavy packages.
I do think some of the hand-wringing is a bit much, especially when the OP is prone to hyperbole and whining - I feel bad for someone who experiences "the worst [insert whatever here] I've ever seen in my life!" on a daily basis.
and a better GM.
We also probably need better owners, but that's a pointless discussion.
Answer the question.
I doubt they would sign anyone, outside of Pio, right now, but I wouldn't be shocked if they add Pio right to the roster. Pio is bad, but not this bad. The question is in week 3 will Gates have made a jump. It was his first game. The Giants probably shouldn't pull the plug yet, but they need a solid alternate plan, and if Pulley is so bad he's worse then Gates, it would seem like they can find someone slightly better.
Draft picks don’t mean shit anymore. We’ve done that experiment plenty. If you can play, you can play. If you can’t, you can’t. Plenty of OL around the league are good players that were low draft picks or undrafted. I’m not saying Gates is going to be awesome. Just let the guy play a few games before we start to panic.
The best OL we ever had had 3 guys that were basically afterthoughts in the draft. And I can guarantee you that Shaun O’Hara got lit up in his first start at center.
Give it some fucking time.
Shaun O'Hara's first start at center came against the 2000 Ravens, one of the best defenses in NFL history. Travis Prentice and Jamel White were Cleveland's RBs that game, not quite on the level of Saquon Barkley.
And even with a pair of crappy RBs, going up against one of the best defenses the league has ever seen (and definitely the best defense in the NFL that season), the Browns managed to gain 25 yards rushing from their RBs, which is 257% better than what the Giants accomplished last night against a good (but not historically great) defense, with a RB who has the talent to be an all-time great.
If O'Hara's first career start is your benchmark for OC play, Gates still fails. For the record, I'm not suggesting that the Giants should give up on Gates. I'm just pointing out that your example doesn't do Gates any favors.
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OC is arguably the most important position on the OL. I don't think it's wrong to say more importance could have been placed on the position.
Even if it meant not bringing in Fleming or cutting Tate or any one of 5 other moves - including the draft (though I hate relying on draft picks for year 1 contributions outside of the 1st or 2nd rounds - but at least draft a legit OC.
this isn't 2020 hind sight (no pun intended) or MMQB, this point was raised all off-season by many and many people said "I don't think this is our roster yet" or "it's May can you be patient" or "Colombo and Garrett know a thing or two about OL"
If Hernandez continues to play more like his 2019 self than 2018, Lemieux may end up at LG before he ever gets the chance to replace Zeitler.
I understand picking players is not a lock, but we always have seemed to reach more so than not.