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Silver lining....

Britt in VA : 9/15/2020 9:17 am
No more Eli debate! I'm so glad it was not Eli Manning on that 19 play drive that ended like that! This morning would have been a complete nightmare.

That said, Jones was (IMO) awesome last night in those circumstances, and I'm really excited about him going forward. That's our franchise QB. That was a tough, tough defense, he hung in there, delivered strikes under intense pressure, and made great plays with his legs. Plus, he protected the ball better with both hands.

Back to that 19 play drive. Ending notwithstanding, that was an insane drive by Jones with multiple 3rd downs converted, including a 3rd and long from near his own endzone against what could be one of the top defenses in the NFL at a critical point in the game. And multiple conversions with his legs. He sees the field extremely well!

I think Jones was outstanding last night, and we just need to get better around him, get our running game going, and we will be okay.

As far as the running game, I think they'll figure it out. They need to get some misdirection in, maybe another back back there in the I-form or something. They can't just put Saquon back there by himself and let the defense tee off on him like that. Plus, those were blown assignments last night, not scheme problems. I expect us to get better there.

Daniel Jones is the shit. He made some insane throws last night.
that INT is what everyone  
ryanmkeane : 9/15/2020 9:19 am : link
is going to remember but he did play really well. Oh, and Slayton was open on that play, if he throws it 1 second sooner it's a TD.
I don't disagree with what you said about Jones  
Mike from Ohio : 9/15/2020 9:21 am : link
He was well prepared and generally played an excellent game.

But that mistake was as critical as it was boneheaded. Your QB has to understand the game situation and he seemed to be in "watch this" mode rather than thinking clearly.
If you notice he threw the ball away in that same situation later  
PatersonPlank : 9/15/2020 9:22 am : link
in the game. He obviously learned his lesson. He can be taught!
He just needs to limit the mistakes  
Johnny5 : 9/15/2020 9:23 am : link
He has to stop giving the ball away. But I agree Britt if he really starts limiting giving the ball away that he is the goods.

It's hard for me to read posts here today without getting pissed... lol

Not sure what people were expecting with a brand new staff, brand new offensive and defensive schemes, a bunch of new players, a completely reshuffled OL, and no preseason.

I was expecting to get completely smoked, so the fact that we were fairly competitive on both sides of the ball until DJ threw that RZ interception was pretty impressive to me. We have work to do but I'm not sure why people are losing their minds based on the above lol. It's sad.
D Jones  
JB_in_DC : 9/15/2020 9:24 am : link
was slow to throw the ball away last year. In general I thought he was better about that this week than what I remember, and should get better with experience. Situational football - intentional grounding is easier to avoid down near the goal line. Excited to watch the continuation of his development.
Fix?  
Simms : 9/15/2020 9:24 am : link
I think teams have seen Barkley and will take a page from Pittsburgh closing off the cutback lanes and force us to change.

Yeah it would be great to see him run wild as they are trying splitting him wide, which is good because he cannot block well.

Our inside OL play, granted against a great DL team made us seem small in many aspects.
I thought he played great, although the TD / INT ratio won't  
Mellowmood92 : 9/15/2020 9:24 am : link
necessarily show that.

For the more analytical fan, I wonder the take on his first INT. The knee-jerk reaction was how can he not see Watt drop into coverage? But was that just a really good defensive play or a throw that shouldn't have been made? It also looked like Engram was really well covered.

To me the play of the game was when he was sacked on the blind side by Williams and that ball didn't move. Hopefully that's a sign of things to come.
I'd call it a diamond-encrusted  
lugnut : 9/15/2020 9:25 am : link
platinum lining. Teams search for years and give up the farm(s) for QBs -- that seems to be the one thing DG has definitely gotten right. We shouldn't ever underestimate the importance.
The INT was 'Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?'  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 9/15/2020 9:26 am : link
It was a momentum/game killer. He's gotta throw it away.

I like Jones. He made some good plays last night, especially on that drive. But that INT was an absolute backbreaker. I think we have a good chance to win if we get a TD there.
I disagreed with you on Eli Britt  
Jim in Forest Hills : 9/15/2020 9:26 am : link
but I'm with you on Jones. I think he's the real deal. Passes the smell test to me.
Yes Britt and think about it we were two plays from possibly winning  
Blue21 : 9/15/2020 9:27 am : link
that game. Settling for a FG when we were 1 1/2 yds and an incompletion from a TD and the interception in the end zone instead of a TD when we were around the 10 YL.
RE: Fix?  
section125 : 9/15/2020 9:28 am : link
In comment 14972739 Simms said:
Quote:
I think teams have seen Barkley and will take a page from Pittsburgh closing off the cutback lanes and force us to change.

Yeah it would be great to see him run wild as they are trying splitting him wide, which is good because he cannot block well.

Our inside OL play, granted against a great DL team made us seem small in many aspects.


How many teams have the front 7 the Steelers do? That is probably the best front seven in football by a wide margin. So I do not expect other teams will have the Steelers success run blitzing.
RE: If you notice he threw the ball away in that same situation later  
Mdgiantsfan : 9/15/2020 9:29 am : link
In comment 14972731 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
in the game. He obviously learned his lesson. He can be taught!


In addition to how bad of a decision that was at such a critical moment, what concerns me is that he did the same thing last year. Not realizing how fast NFL players are and they get to him faster than he expects resulting in a turnover. Turnovers are killers to any momentum and have proven to drastically reduce your chances of winning.
Are you falling in love  
pjcas18 : 9/15/2020 9:40 am : link
again?






j/k, but seriously I don't know what Jones will become, but I really hope it's a legit franchise QB so all the know-it-all experts have to eat shit sandwiches. I thought he played well last night, but the mistake at the end of the long drive was the turning point of the game. Sort of makes any assessment sort of like "other than that, how was the play Mrs. Lincoln?"
Another Silver Lining:  
section125 : 9/15/2020 9:42 am : link
(knock on wood) - no injuries that I can recall. Steelers lost a couple players, but I do not remember the Giants losing anyone.
The thing about that game ending INT after the long drive....  
Britt in VA : 9/15/2020 9:47 am : link
is that it's not like he just chucked it up there. The DE got his arm. That was not like Eli trying to throw it with his left hand. He was either throwing it away or at a WR and the DE grabbed his arm and unfortunately for us it turned into a pop fly.

People act like he intentionally threw it up there like that. His arm got batted. It happens.
RE: The thing about that game ending INT after the long drive....  
pjcas18 : 9/15/2020 9:51 am : link
In comment 14972796 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
is that it's not like he just chucked it up there. The DE got his arm. That was not like Eli trying to throw it with his left hand. He was either throwing it away or at a WR and the DE grabbed his arm and unfortunately for us it turned into a pop fly.

People act like he intentionally threw it up there like that. His arm got batted. It happens.


who acts like he intentionally threw it up there like that?

He waited too long to get rid of the ball and then when he should have taken a sack he tried to force it and misjudged how close the defender was. Even without intent it's a boneheaded play.

His coach didn't mince words either when talking about - no need for the fans to.
He thought he could get it off and he didn't.  
Britt in VA : 9/15/2020 9:56 am : link
That's pretty much it. It's a correctable mistake.
yes  
pjcas18 : 9/15/2020 10:06 am : link
correctable.

my sentiments echo the head coach.

Quote:
...“He had two throws I know he wants back. Down at the goal line, that’s something we can’t have happen,” Judge said of his quarterback. “Look, I’ll talk to Daniel a little bit more about it, I’ll watch the tape and make sure we clean up everything involved. That’s definitely something you can’t have, 19-play drive and come away with no points, especially down there in the low red (zone). That’s not acceptable, but I’m proud of the way he played aggressive, I’m proud of the way this team stuck together.”...
biggest positive from last night is Jones/Garrett combo solid start  
Eric on Li : 9/15/2020 10:20 am : link
that was a legitimate question, as any new offense install is, and Jones picked up right where he left off in terms of being able to pretty surgically put the ball where he needs to put it. And Garrett did a good job of mixing things up and calling plays that schemed guys open like the Toilolo 3rd down and the 4th down passes out of heavy sets.

If we take a step back from what we saw and just focus on the numbers:

26/41 (63%) - solid even with a few drops in there
279 yards (6.8 ypc)
2 td/2 int
4 carries for 22 yards, 2 first downs rushing
3 sacks taken
8/15 on 3rd downs
1/1 on 4th down
28 minutes of possession with 0 running game

Against a very good and completely healthy defense, in game 1 of a new season/system, with 0 running game, that's a pretty solid overall effort.

Obviously you want the 2 picks back but big picture there was a lot to like in that game. There are many degrees of worse it could have been - just look at how the 3 young QBs he's most frequently compared with did (Haskins, Mayfield, Darnold).
Agreed Eric  
Johnny5 : 9/15/2020 10:23 am : link
Good post
Jones played well : he received his highest PFF grade  
RetroJint : 9/15/2020 10:59 am : link
if that matters to you. But, consistent with the Eli analysis, I have to mention that the stats included in the last touchdown drive have to be regarded as garbage-time. Remember with Eli? That last 80 yards & TD that made it look much more palatable.

There was also the open-hand fumble. Had the Steelers recovered, they would have challenged and won. So another turnover was avoided. It could have easily been otherwise. The Giants were lucky.

Jones made plays with his legs that Eli could never make. He was pressured 26 times. That is consistent for a Steeler defense that hit the quarterback 30% of the time when a pass was called last season.

Engram and Barkley certainly didn't help him. Forget the rushing line. Barkley was terrible in pass protection. I remember how ebullient Carl Banks was the night the Giants selected him. That thing about the defense now being forced "to back off?" PS CB-moronic statement. Do you want that one back? The cerebral method to neutralizing Barkley on passing plays is to keep him in. See Buddy Ryan vs Dave Meggett, for example.

The thing about Jones is he came from a program that did not expect to win. I mean their big game is Wake. Those guys get used to taking low-chance-of-succeeding gambles. A "What the Hey" attitude. Phil Simms coming from Morehead St, where his team was the designated the "Home Coming" opponent. He had to learn how you stay in a close game when he came to the Giants. In short, Jones has not been hardwired for victory. That's going to be task for Judge and Garrett. I'm generally optimistic. But it is hardly a done deal. Right now he's closer to a Jay Cutler career than some of the other comparisons I see being made.

I am solid in support of the staff and Jones. The Giants are still short players. But some of their blue blood , whether they drafted them (Barkley and Engram) or others did (Peppers) have to do more in these games.
One of the things I was most encouraged about last night  
MadPlaid : 9/15/2020 11:07 am : link
was the offensive adjustments made by the Giants in the 2nd half. That 19 play drive was made possible by a coaching staff that was capable of reading their options and adjusting the game plan. Something that was horribly lacking last year. They found a way to improve the play of the team against a really good opponent. That was something I was very happy to see.

This team is very new, I think they are on the right path towards success.
RE: One of the things I was most encouraged about last night  
Britt in VA : 9/15/2020 11:08 am : link
In comment 14972975 MadPlaid said:
Quote:
was the offensive adjustments made by the Giants in the 2nd half. That 19 play drive was made possible by a coaching staff that was capable of reading their options and adjusting the game plan. Something that was horribly lacking last year. They found a way to improve the play of the team against a really good opponent. That was something I was very happy to see.

This team is very new, I think they are on the right path towards success.


That's a great point.
RE: Jones played well : he received his highest PFF grade  
Britt in VA : 9/15/2020 11:09 am : link
In comment 14972961 RetroJint said:
Quote:
if that matters to you. But, consistent with the Eli analysis, I have to mention that the stats included in the last touchdown drive have to be regarded as garbage-time. Remember with Eli? That last 80 yards & TD that made it look much more palatable.

There was also the open-hand fumble. Had the Steelers recovered, they would have challenged and won. So another turnover was avoided. It could have easily been otherwise. The Giants were lucky.

Jones made plays with his legs that Eli could never make. He was pressured 26 times. That is consistent for a Steeler defense that hit the quarterback 30% of the time when a pass was called last season.

Engram and Barkley certainly didn't help him. Forget the rushing line. Barkley was terrible in pass protection. I remember how ebullient Carl Banks was the night the Giants selected him. That thing about the defense now being forced "to back off?" PS CB-moronic statement. Do you want that one back? The cerebral method to neutralizing Barkley on passing plays is to keep him in. See Buddy Ryan vs Dave Meggett, for example.

The thing about Jones is he came from a program that did not expect to win. I mean their big game is Wake. Those guys get used to taking low-chance-of-succeeding gambles. A "What the Hey" attitude. Phil Simms coming from Morehead St, where his team was the designated the "Home Coming" opponent. He had to learn how you stay in a close game when he came to the Giants. In short, Jones has not been hardwired for victory. That's going to be task for Judge and Garrett. I'm generally optimistic. But it is hardly a done deal. Right now he's closer to a Jay Cutler career than some of the other comparisons I see being made.

I am solid in support of the staff and Jones. The Giants are still short players. But some of their blue blood , whether they drafted them (Barkley and Engram) or others did (Peppers) have to do more in these games.


I find it hard tp pin that on Jones. It's not like he held the ball too long. He was in the process of throwing and his arm got hit. Is that really a QB mistake? That's a pass pro failure. It's not like he was running around holding it out like a loaf of bread, he was in the process of his throwing motion.
I mean, the INT after the long drive, YES, bad decision.  
Britt in VA : 9/15/2020 11:11 am : link
He can't throw across his body on the run like that w/ a defender bearing down on him.

But the open handed fumble? I can't see how that's his fault.
Also, I don't remember how many 4th down conversions are....  
Britt in VA : 9/15/2020 11:30 am : link
but I know Jones made at least one insane throw on one, and I can remember at least 2 insane throws on 3rd and 10+.
there were, not are.  
Britt in VA : 9/15/2020 11:30 am : link
.
This is DJ's  
ryanmkeane : 9/15/2020 11:31 am : link
second NFL season, he has an extremely young team, brand new staff, brand new OL that needs a ton of time. He was surgical for most of the night against possibly the best defense in football.
RE: This is DJ's  
Britt in VA : 9/15/2020 11:32 am : link
In comment 14973022 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
second NFL season, he has an extremely young team, brand new staff, brand new OL that needs a ton of time. He was surgical for most of the night against possibly the best defense in football.


And he hasn't even played 16 full games yet.
Good thread. And people forget,  
Dave in Hoboken : 9/15/2020 12:01 pm : link
the very same year the Giants won the SB and beat the 18-0 Pats in 2007, in Week 12 of that season (November 25th to be exact), Eli Manning, in his fourth season, threw 4 picks at home against at that time the lowest ranked pass defense in the NFL in the Minnesota Vikings. Just 2.5 months later, he led the game-winning drive in the Super Bowl to beat the undefeated Pats in what will go down as one of the, if not the best drive in SB history.

That isn't to bash Eli at all, but it's to show even in his fourth season, Eli was still ascending as a player. Daniel Jones is 13 games into his career and last night played one of the best defenses in the league with his running game completely and utterly taken away from him with nowhere near the OLine talent that the 2007 Giants had.

People need to relax alittle.

People need to relax.
RE: Good thread. And people forget,  
crick n NC : 9/15/2020 12:07 pm : link
In comment 14973081 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
the very same year the Giants won the SB and beat the 18-0 Pats in 2007, in Week 12 of that season (November 25th to be exact), Eli Manning, in his fourth season, threw 4 picks at home against at that time the lowest ranked pass defense in the NFL in the Minnesota Vikings. Just 2.5 months later, he led the game-winning drive in the Super Bowl to beat the undefeated Pats in what will go down as one of the, if not the best drive in SB history.

That isn't to bash Eli at all, but it's to show even in his fourth season, Eli was still ascending as a player. Daniel Jones is 13 games into his career and last night played one of the best defenses in the league with his running game completely and utterly taken away from him with nowhere near the OLine talent that the 2007 Giants had.

People need to relax alittle.

People need to relax.


Hi Dave, I agree. Good post.
It is amazing how threads turn from a play  
Mike from Ohio : 9/15/2020 12:16 pm : link
to a player, and if you criticize a play your are inherently criticizing a player.

There is no defending that throw. He tried to force a throw in a critical situation instead of realizing it wasn't there and eat it like a seasoned vet would. Judge said as much. It is not acceptable.

Jones isn't a seasoned vet yet. He will learn. But that throw was not "oops, someone tipped his arm." It was a boneheaded mistake at a critical juncture of the game.

Some will read this as they did all of the Eli threads and call me a Jones hater, but I like what he did for 98% of the game. But I can also realize young, talented players can make rookie mistakes. It wouldn't hurt if people could start acknowledging that.
RE: It is amazing how threads turn from a play  
Britt in VA : 9/15/2020 12:21 pm : link
In comment 14973100 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
to a player, and if you criticize a play your are inherently criticizing a player.

There is no defending that throw. He tried to force a throw in a critical situation instead of realizing it wasn't there and eat it like a seasoned vet would. Judge said as much. It is not acceptable.

Jones isn't a seasoned vet yet. He will learn. But that throw was not "oops, someone tipped his arm." It was a boneheaded mistake at a critical juncture of the game.

Some will read this as they did all of the Eli threads and call me a Jones hater, but I like what he did for 98% of the game. But I can also realize young, talented players can make rookie mistakes. It wouldn't hurt if people could start acknowledging that.


I don't see anybody defending the decision Jones made. It was a mistake, but a correctable one.

Other than that, I don't see anybody calling anybody on this thread a Jones hater, either. Do you have this thread confused with another?
It is this thread and the other threads all on the same topic  
Mike from Ohio : 9/15/2020 12:28 pm : link
And the only upside to Eli finally retiring was I was so looking forward to people looking at our QB objectively as opposed to "he sucks" and "he's awesome."

There is another thread right now starting with "was that play really so bad?" Of course it was! It effectively ended the game.

Apologies for blurring this thread with the other Jones threads on here today.
RE: It is this thread and the other threads all on the same topic  
crick n NC : 9/15/2020 12:33 pm : link
In comment 14973120 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
And the only upside to Eli finally retiring was I was so looking forward to people looking at our QB objectively as opposed to "he sucks" and "he's awesome."

There is another thread right now starting with "was that play really so bad?" Of course it was! It effectively ended the game.

Apologies for blurring this thread with the other Jones threads on here today.


Mike, unfortunately, "either or" thinking is often used in discussion. I would say the Jones' play was a mistake that young Qb's tend to make.
I wouldn't say I started this thread not to be objective....  
Britt in VA : 9/15/2020 12:35 pm : link
I just saw a ton of positives from him last night that were encouraging. Yeah the mistake overshadows all, but it's correctable, and he made some insane plays with both his leg and arms, including some "wow" critical conversions.
I mean, the title of the thread is....  
Britt in VA : 9/15/2020 12:37 pm : link
"Silver lining" which typically acknowledges that you're focusing on the positive aspect of a bad situation.
What doesn't need to happen  
GManinDC : 9/15/2020 12:45 pm : link
is every INT or incomplete pass gets over-analyzed to see who was at fault.

This is how it begins. Always trying to assign fault away from the QB or to the QB.

It was a bad mistake. Full stop.

It can be corrected. Full stop.
RE: What doesn't need to happen  
crick n NC : 9/15/2020 12:47 pm : link
In comment 14973155 GManinDC said:
Quote:
is every INT or incomplete pass gets over-analyzed to see who was at fault.

This is how it begins. Always trying to assign fault away from the QB or to the QB.

It was a bad mistake. Full stop.

It can be corrected. Full stop.


Hi Gman, but it is important to understand why mistakes happen, right? Perhaps to fans like us it looks obvious who made what mistake, but sometimes there are details we don't know about that help describe why a mistake happened.

RE: He thought he could get it off and he didn't.  
santacruzom : 9/15/2020 12:48 pm : link
In comment 14972815 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
That's pretty much it. It's a correctable mistake.


The decision aspect of it is correctable. But was there an awareness aspect of it as well, where he simply didn't realize the defenders speed and/or proximity? That's the one possibility that concerns me.
You hit the nail on the head there Santa  
Mike from Ohio : 9/15/2020 1:06 pm : link
We all admire how DJ will stand in the pocket and take a hit to make a play. But that is one of the reasons he has had the fumbling issues. It seems he is sometimes misjudging how fast a defender will be on him.

Knowing when you can get the ball away, and when you can't and knowing to eat it is the next stage in DJs development I would like to see. I think it will eliminate throws like that one and some of the fumbles in the pocket as well.
It also may  
crick n NC : 9/15/2020 1:19 pm : link
Just be a part of who he is as a quarterback. There will be times we will benefit from it and times we don't. Which means he may improve a bit, but it also may be something allows for big plays. Eli had a habit of taking chances. The giants benefited from it and at times didn't benefit. Timing is crucial.
RE: RE: He thought he could get it off and he didn't.  
Percy : 9/15/2020 9:37 pm : link
In comment 14973164 santacruzom said:
Quote:
In comment 14972815 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


That's pretty much it. It's a correctable mistake.



The decision aspect of it is correctable. But was there an awareness aspect of it as well, where he simply didn't realize the defenders speed and/or proximity? That's the one possibility that concerns me.


True. See if it's better down the road. Internal clock matter.
RE: I thought he played great, although the TD / INT ratio won't  
Matt M. : 9/15/2020 10:13 pm : link
In comment 14972741 Mellowmood92 said:
Quote:
necessarily show that.

For the more analytical fan, I wonder the take on his first INT. The knee-jerk reaction was how can he not see Watt drop into coverage? But was that just a really good defensive play or a throw that shouldn't have been made? It also looked like Engram was really well covered.

To me the play of the game was when he was sacked on the blind side by Williams and that ball didn't move. Hopefully that's a sign of things to come.
First and foremost, I think the 1st INT was a great play by Watt. That said, I do think it was still a poor throw by Jones. If Watt isn't there, it was grossly behind Engram.

The 2nd INT was also a good defensive play by Dupree. But, it was a bad decision by Jones. I do like that he saw an opening to hi Slayton in the corner. However, he slowed up to make the throw. He has to know that is not the right move there.
RE: What doesn't need to happen  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/15/2020 10:22 pm : link
In comment 14973155 GManinDC said:
Quote:
is every INT or incomplete pass gets over-analyzed to see who was at fault.

This is how it begins. Always trying to assign fault away from the QB or to the QB.

It was a bad mistake. Full stop.

It can be corrected. Full stop.

I like this. The board used to go crazy over every Eli turnover and for some innate reason, people wanted to assign blame for each mistake, even if they couldn't tell if it was a route error or a bad throw.

Then again, Eli was docked "points" by a couple real doozies here who still contend that getting a fingertip on an Eli throw in the SB was akin to an "easy INT" that was dropped. as if we shouldn't have the Lombardi that year.
Having never seen DJ play at Duke,  
Big Blue '56 : 9/16/2020 8:49 am : link
my only source of info was via the media and on here. YouTube, doesn’t do it for me vis a vis tell-all or almost so.

All I can say, I’m pleased as shit we drafted this guy. Perfect for NY, even if his performances at times will be less than.
Ive been impressed with Jones  
Sneakers O'toole : 9/16/2020 8:57 am : link
I thought the defense showed promise as well. Broke down late, but a decent showing.
RE: RE: What doesn't need to happen  
GManinDC : 9/16/2020 11:52 am : link
In comment 14973905 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 14973155 GManinDC said:


Quote:


is every INT or incomplete pass gets over-analyzed to see who was at fault.

This is how it begins. Always trying to assign fault away from the QB or to the QB.

It was a bad mistake. Full stop.

It can be corrected. Full stop.


I like this. The board used to go crazy over every Eli turnover and for some innate reason, people wanted to assign blame for each mistake, even if they couldn't tell if it was a route error or a bad throw.

Then again, Eli was docked "points" by a couple real doozies here who still contend that getting a fingertip on an Eli throw in the SB was akin to an "easy INT" that was dropped. as if we shouldn't have the Lombardi that year.



Unfortunately, we are about to go into the DJ era with the same madness with fumbles and INT's. I see it already starting.

It's going to ruin every decent conversation about the team.

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