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SI: Does Saquon fit the Giants timeline?

LawrenceTaylor56 : 9/15/2020 11:16 am
After last night, you know this was going to get brought up sooner than later. Not trying to stir the pot from the 2018 Draft, but I thought this was worth sharing.

Quote:
To watch Saquon Barkley try and hurdle defenders on every small whiff of open field is like watching someone try and weave a Lamborghini through Jersey Shore traffic on a particularly beautiful Saturday in July. Every ounce of free pavement is a beautiful display, but unfortunately there is not nearly the room to legitimize breaking the thing out of the garage in the first place.

The player the Giants took No. 2 overall in 2018 has been trapped like this for the better part of two seasons; a superstar enveloped by the reality of a roster overhaul that is taking far too long. There have been moments of brilliance, sure. Rare moments when their personnel can overwhelm an opponent to give Barkley the ounce of space he requires to create havoc. But the fact remains after a Giants season-opening loss to the Pittsburgh Steelers at MetLife: Barkley is a valuable asset, but one that is needlessly depreciating in a place that cannot facilitate his best right now.

Saquon - ( New Window )
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RE: Britt I don't know why you insist on continuing  
Britt in VA : 9/15/2020 7:12 pm : link
In comment 14973592 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
to make this dumb point after I keep showing you this. But you can't say Barkley was worth the #2 pick and not Quinton Nelson.

In 2018 when Barkely was drafted the top 10 RBs had an average salary of $8.4M and the top 10 Gs $11.4M. You are stating something as a fact that the evidence doesn't even remotely support. Dollars allocated to a position is the best measure of value as teams view it themselves.

Many including myself said that you have to build the OL before you take an RB that high, you have to be sure you are ready to win now, that's even IF a RB at #2 is worth it at all, which it is tough to make a general purpose argument for in its own right. People point to Elliot but that really fails at a remotely apt comparison as the difference between the #2 pick and #4 pick is 800 points or the #21 pick in the draft and honestly I'd have had absolutely zero problem with the Giants trading down to #4 grabbing Barkley and extra picks of even 600 value.

People continually excuse these kinds of things situation by situation but the fact of the matter is often hard to see that the Giants actually grasp asset allocation principles.

Anyway quit making the same bad points Britt, at least find your way to new bad points. Sportrac 2018 Salaries - ( New Window )


I don’t know why you’re singling me out when plenty of people are happy with Barkley over Nelson, then and now, even on this very thread.

Everything you posted is your opinion. Just because people have a different opinion doesn’t make them wrong and you right, or vice versa.

Also, I was fine back in 2018 taking Nelson. In fact, I was fine taking Barkley, Nelson, and any of the QB’s. Unlike many here, I didn’t put all my eggs in one basket and then throw a 3 year temper tantrum over not getting my way, because I could see a path to success through any of those players.
You guys can’t let it go.  
Britt in VA : 9/15/2020 7:15 pm : link
Even Googs is right that the ship has sailed. If you want to debate Barkley’s future value, that’s one thing. But still arguing over the pick three years later and being unable to accept it is just sour grapes at this point. Let it go.
RE: Yes  
LBH15 : 9/15/2020 8:01 pm : link
In comment 14973652 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
The better trade would have been up at the bottom of 1 for QB Jackson which is something a few of us liked that year.


Maybe, I would have been more than satisfied with something like Q Nelson, N Chubb and D Leonard.
I love SB  
Mark from Jersey : 9/15/2020 8:10 pm : link
and his potential. Lets wait a few games before we trade him off to the Steelers for a 2nd round pick.

This OL is basically brand new. New RT, new LT, new C. No pre-season. I can go on.

The only thing I dont love about SB is 1) Pass blocking is horrible and 2) DONT LEAVE YOUR FEET YOU ARE GOING TO GET KILLED.
Short answer? Probably not.  
The_Boss : 9/15/2020 9:11 pm : link
I would look to deal him this coming offseason before he depreciates to the point you cannot fetch a first for him. He’s an incredible talent but he’s not the right player for this team right now. Everybody in this forum knows this won’t be a playoff team this year and honestly I don’t think it will be in 2021, either.
I will start by saying I would still pick Barkley there.  
Matt M. : 9/15/2020 10:17 pm : link
I think he is head and shoulders better than any of the QBs. That said, I agree with the notion that taking him doesn't seem to match the timeline for Gettleman. Either that or he isn't doing a good job of executing. If you take a RB there and know you are likely to take your next QB the following year, you have to have some semblance of an OL, which they still do not.

But, I love the 3 OL picks this year. They all need to be starting next year and at a decent level for this to be worthwhile.
RE: Short answer? Probably not.  
Sean : 9/15/2020 10:25 pm : link
In comment 14973835 The_Boss said:
Quote:
I would look to deal him this coming offseason before he depreciates to the point you cannot fetch a first for him. He’s an incredible talent but he’s not the right player for this team right now. Everybody in this forum knows this won’t be a playoff team this year and honestly I don’t think it will be in 2021, either.


Not to miller the thread. But you have talked up Carson Wentz in the past, paraphrasing, “he will be dominating the division for the next 5+ years.” What’s happened to him?
As for Saquon..  
Sean : 9/15/2020 10:26 pm : link
He’s going to get resigned. You don’t draft a player #2 if you intend to nickel and dime over the 2nd contract. He’s here for the long term.
RE: As for Saquon..  
Britt in VA : 9/16/2020 6:38 am : link
In comment 14973910 Sean said:
Quote:
He’s going to get resigned. You don’t draft a player #2 if you intend to nickel and dime over the 2nd contract. He’s here for the long term.


Of course he is. This, once again, is much ado about nothing.
RE: RE: Short answer? Probably not.  
The_Boss : 9/16/2020 6:43 am : link
In comment 14973909 Sean said:
Quote:
In comment 14973835 The_Boss said:


Quote:


I would look to deal him this coming offseason before he depreciates to the point you cannot fetch a first for him. He’s an incredible talent but he’s not the right player for this team right now. Everybody in this forum knows this won’t be a playoff team this year and honestly I don’t think it will be in 2021, either.



Not to miller the thread. But you have talked up Carson Wentz in the past, paraphrasing, “he will be dominating the division for the next 5+ years.” What’s happened to him?


I’ll be damned if I know. While they could still sweep us again this year, you can see that franchise falling on hard times very soon. It’s an aging roster and the players (other than Ertz) don’t seem to either like or rally behind Wentz like they did with Foles. It’s going to be a train wreck I for one cannot wait to see play out.
I wish it wasn't the Giants learning this lesson.  
mittenedman : 9/16/2020 7:17 am : link
I love Barkley but the Giants know what the Steelers do, too: the running game is about the Offensive Line - not the RB. What happened when James Conner went down? PIT simply put in its backup RB and kept going.

The Giants used to have that setup with Tiki, then Jacobs, then Ward, then Bradshaw. Even D.J. Ware looked decent when given the ball. Get the RB after round 1. Joe Skiba could've average 4 ypc behind that OL.

The right pick was Quenton Nelson, just like the right pick was Ramczyk over Evan Engram. But in both instances, we got all distracted by the shiny hood ornament. We should've known better, and did.
RE: As for Saquon..  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/16/2020 7:52 am : link
In comment 14973910 Sean said:
Quote:
He’s going to get resigned. You don’t draft a player #2 if you intend to nickel and dime over the 2nd contract. He’s here for the long term.

Just curious where the cutoff is. Does that apply to guys taken #9 or #10 overall? Or is it just top 2?

Even just looking at RBs, did Lawrence Phillips (6th pick) make it to a second contract? How about Curtis Enis (5th)? Leonard Fournette (4th)? Trent Richardson (3rd)? Blair Thomas (2nd)? Ki-Jana Carter (1st)? Did any of their draft position dictate their team's intent for their second contract?

The whole "you don't draft a player #2 if..." nonsense is an absurd take. Barkley's second contract will be due to his play on the field and his character in the locker room and the community, and the team's roster and cap structure at that time, not his draft position.

After everything we've all seen around the league, you don't think a possibility even exists - however minute - that Barkley could be traded before his next contract? Or tagged and then traded? Or tagged and then hurt? Or tagged and let walk after his tag year(s)?

I'm not suggesting for one second that Barkley won't get a second contract here. I assume he probably will, and I'll reserve my opinion on that for when we see what the OL looks like at that time and what SB's next contract is. But the idea that anyone can genuinely speak in absolutes about a 2nd contract with THIS franchise (and then have another intelligent poster second the motion) is beyond comprehension.
RE: RE: As for Saquon..  
Bill L : 9/16/2020 8:07 am : link
In comment 14974019 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14973910 Sean said:


Quote:


He’s going to get resigned. You don’t draft a player #2 if you intend to nickel and dime over the 2nd contract. He’s here for the long term.


Just curious where the cutoff is. Does that apply to guys taken #9 or #10 overall? Or is it just top 2?

Even just looking at RBs, did Lawrence Phillips (6th pick) make it to a second contract? How about Curtis Enis (5th)? Leonard Fournette (4th)? Trent Richardson (3rd)? Blair Thomas (2nd)? Ki-Jana Carter (1st)? Did any of their draft position dictate their team's intent for their second contract?

The whole "you don't draft a player #2 if..." nonsense is an absurd take. Barkley's second contract will be due to his play on the field and his character in the locker room and the community, and the team's roster and cap structure at that time, not his draft position.

After everything we've all seen around the league, you don't think a possibility even exists - however minute - that Barkley could be traded before his next contract? Or tagged and then traded? Or tagged and then hurt? Or tagged and let walk after his tag year(s)?

I'm not suggesting for one second that Barkley won't get a second contract here. I assume he probably will, and I'll reserve my opinion on that for when we see what the OL looks like at that time and what SB's next contract is. But the idea that anyone can genuinely speak in absolutes about a 2nd contract with THIS franchise (and then have another intelligent poster second the motion) is beyond comprehension.


WOw. What a dim view of Barkley's abilities and accomplishments if those are your comparators.
it isn't an absurd take  
UConn4523 : 9/16/2020 8:09 am : link
because the understanding is you aren't taking a player that you only want 4 or 5 years out of. Those other RB's weren't any good - what do they have to do when talking about Barkley?

Fournette was a mistake. I said it when Jacksonville drafted him, and it still stands. His style of play put him in that higher risk category for me, he also wasn't much of a pass catchers which is the ignored portion of all of this (Barkley isn't just a RB). Of all the guys taken top 10 the past 5+ years Fournette was the most one dimensional. Bad pick, not at all relatable, IMO.

Sure, there's a chance he's traded but I'd put that at 10% if not less. We can't put our entire franchise on hold because the OLine stinks, which is what many of these posts seems to allude to. As you can see with how long its taking putting together an OL isn't easy (atleast not for NYG) and ignoring other positions to compound it makes no sense to me.

We've had 5 new starters across the entire line since Barkley was drafted, some of the positions multiple new starters. They came via trades, FA, and picks. The line has been addressed a lot and it hasn't been working - that's the problem.
i'm still laughing at that RB list  
UConn4523 : 9/16/2020 8:15 am : link
hey, lets not compare Barkley to his peers, lets come up with a shitty list from 15/20 years ago during a completely different NFL.

Why aren't you comparing him to Elliot (extension), CMC (extension), Gurley (extension, cut, left for dead but has the opportunity to be the man again in Atlanta)?
UConn..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/16/2020 8:20 am : link
LOL. I know. Hey. Ki-Jana Carter getting injured immediately in his career is just like Barkley!! Perfect parallel.
RE: UConn..  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/16/2020 8:27 am : link
In comment 14974034 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
LOL. I know. Hey. Ki-Jana Carter getting injured immediately in his career is just like Barkley!! Perfect parallel.

You're smarter than that. The point was that the draft slot doesn't guarantee the second contract, which is verbatim what Sean said, and was specifically what I was referring to. It's not by accident (and probably not surprising) that you're taking that entirely out of context.

Sometimes you really do prove your critics correct.
RE: i'm still laughing at that RB list  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/16/2020 8:32 am : link
In comment 14974033 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
hey, lets not compare Barkley to his peers, lets come up with a shitty list from 15/20 years ago during a completely different NFL.

Why aren't you comparing him to Elliot (extension), CMC (extension), Gurley (extension, cut, left for dead but has the opportunity to be the man again in Atlanta)?


Is Leonard Fournette not his peer? Would Trent Richardson not be his peer if he didn't suck his way out of the league already?

I was responding to Sean's post that Barkley's draft slot alone guarantees not only a second contract, but according to Sean, one without even a negotiation. I provided a RB in each draft slot of the top six that did not reach their second contract with the team that selected them - in some cases, because there are so few RBs taken that high in the draft, I had to go back a bit farther, but obviously not all of them, like Fournette in particular.

I didn't think it was that hard to understand the context of my post. I guess I was wrong.
i already commented on that  
UConn4523 : 9/16/2020 8:33 am : link
I guess you didn't read it. Ohh well.
RE: RE: i'm still laughing at that RB list  
bigbluehoya : 9/16/2020 8:34 am : link
In comment 14974042 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14974033 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


hey, lets not compare Barkley to his peers, lets come up with a shitty list from 15/20 years ago during a completely different NFL.

Why aren't you comparing him to Elliot (extension), CMC (extension), Gurley (extension, cut, left for dead but has the opportunity to be the man again in Atlanta)?



Is Leonard Fournette not his peer? Would Trent Richardson not be his peer if he didn't suck his way out of the league already?

I was responding to Sean's post that Barkley's draft slot alone guarantees not only a second contract, but according to Sean, one without even a negotiation. I provided a RB in each draft slot of the top six that did not reach their second contract with the team that selected them - in some cases, because there are so few RBs taken that high in the draft, I had to go back a bit farther, but obviously not all of them, like Fournette in particular.

I didn't think it was that hard to understand the context of my post. I guess I was wrong.


It wasn't hard to understand at all. It was a good point. You know Fat Man is a complete fucking jerkoff. I don't know why you waste your time with the back and forth.
RE: I wish it wasn't the Giants learning this lesson.  
Sonic Youth : 9/16/2020 8:38 am : link
In comment 14974014 mittenedman said:
Quote:
I love Barkley but the Giants know what the Steelers do, too: the running game is about the Offensive Line - not the RB. What happened when James Conner went down? PIT simply put in its backup RB and kept going.

The Giants used to have that setup with Tiki, then Jacobs, then Ward, then Bradshaw. Even D.J. Ware looked decent when given the ball. Get the RB after round 1. Joe Skiba could've average 4 ypc behind that OL.

The right pick was Quenton Nelson, just like the right pick was Ramczyk over Evan Engram. But in both instances, we got all distracted by the shiny hood ornament. We should've known better, and did.
I've contended that this team would be better with Nelson + Chubb than Barkley + Hernandez, but in all fairness, nobody would take a Guard with the 2nd overall pick.

Now Engram over Ramczyk was an obvious mistake at the time. Shit, if they were so set on a TE I wish they went Njoku. Sure, Njoku hasn't torn it up in Cleveland but at least he provides some semblance of blocking.
What is the actual trade value of Barkley though in this league?  
Sonic Youth : 9/16/2020 8:41 am : link
I think the question of if he's "worth it" completely hinges on that determination, and to be honest, it's probably not as much as his value.

There's no point taking pennies on the dollar, as I doubt he'd even net anything more than like a late first.

I used to say I was completely against signing him to a second contract, but if his production is hamstrung due to the terrible run blocking, it might not be a bad idea to lock him up with an extension before he hits the 5th year option for a couple more years while his production is lower.

Then you can still get the 6-8 prime years of Barkley (if he gets that many) without totally breaking the bank like the Saints did with Kamara, Titans with Henry, or Cowboys with Zeke.

I think Barkley has the capability to be just as good as any of those RBs, but his play style benefits from having decent run blocking more than any of those players (except maybe Kamara)
RE: RE: RE: As for Saquon..  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/16/2020 8:42 am : link
In comment 14974027 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 14974019 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 14973910 Sean said:


Quote:


He’s going to get resigned. You don’t draft a player #2 if you intend to nickel and dime over the 2nd contract. He’s here for the long term.


Just curious where the cutoff is. Does that apply to guys taken #9 or #10 overall? Or is it just top 2?

Even just looking at RBs, did Lawrence Phillips (6th pick) make it to a second contract? How about Curtis Enis (5th)? Leonard Fournette (4th)? Trent Richardson (3rd)? Blair Thomas (2nd)? Ki-Jana Carter (1st)? Did any of their draft position dictate their team's intent for their second contract?

The whole "you don't draft a player #2 if..." nonsense is an absurd take. Barkley's second contract will be due to his play on the field and his character in the locker room and the community, and the team's roster and cap structure at that time, not his draft position.

After everything we've all seen around the league, you don't think a possibility even exists - however minute - that Barkley could be traded before his next contract? Or tagged and then traded? Or tagged and then hurt? Or tagged and let walk after his tag year(s)?

I'm not suggesting for one second that Barkley won't get a second contract here. I assume he probably will, and I'll reserve my opinion on that for when we see what the OL looks like at that time and what SB's next contract is. But the idea that anyone can genuinely speak in absolutes about a 2nd contract with THIS franchise (and then have another intelligent poster second the motion) is beyond comprehension.



WOw. What a dim view of Barkley's abilities and accomplishments if those are your comparators.

WOw. What a dim view of your reading comprehension if you couldn't understand that my point was that draft position does not inform a player's second contract.

I referenced two very recent, very high-profile draft busts that the Giants have had. Then added a list of RBs who were taken at the very top of the draft yet failed to reach their second contract. If all that mattered was draft position, as Sean tried to posit, all of those players would have gotten a second contract with the teams that drafted them because their draft position was unchanged even while their careers were derailed for various reasons.

Was it not clear when I wrote "Barkley's second contract will be due to his play on the field and his character in the locker room and the community, and the team's roster and cap structure at that time, not his draft position," or when I finished with "I'm not suggesting for one second that Barkley won't get a second contract here. I assume he probably will... [b]ut the idea that anyone can genuinely speak in absolutes about a 2nd contract with THIS franchise... is beyond comprehension"?
Dunk,  
Big Blue '56 : 9/16/2020 8:45 am : link
how you doing on coping with your fairly recent loss?
this was a rather straightforward comment  
UConn4523 : 9/16/2020 9:12 am : link
"He’s going to get resigned. You don’t draft a player #2 if you intend to nickel and dime over the 2nd contract. He’s here for the long term."

And its turned into this?
UConn's point..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/16/2020 9:17 am : link
on this thread has been that even the recent 2nd contracts handed out aren't cap killers or even that tough to get out from.

But instead, we are provided lists of a bunch of RB's who never got 2nd contracts (of course overlooking the obvious examples of those that did get them and went on to have excellent careers like LT, Faulk, Peterson, Sanders, etc.
...  
ryanmkeane : 9/16/2020 9:25 am : link
he turned 23 years old in February
Not for nothing, but suggesting Leonard Fournette  
LBH15 : 9/16/2020 9:27 am : link
is one dimensional and not a pass catcher is absurd.

In 2019, Fournette caught 76 balls for 522 yards.

To give it some perspective, the 522 yards was second among all running backs that gained 1000 yards rushing, behind only McCaffrey.

This whole thing about contract #2 is nuts  
UConn4523 : 9/16/2020 9:27 am : link
CMC as the peak contract can be cut in 2022 ($0 cap savings so all dead money) and then starting in 2023 they would save $7.7m. Its essentially a 2 year deal with the option for seasons 3, 4, and 5.

What's Allen Robinson going to get this offseason? I'm guessing he will be getting around $50m guaranteed which is almost 30% more than CMC.

Which player is better? Which player will have the better contract?

Would love this question to actually be answered even 1 time on these threads.
RE: Not for nothing, but suggesting Leonard Fournette  
UConn4523 : 9/16/2020 9:30 am : link
In comment 14974100 LBH15 said:
Quote:
is one dimensional and not a pass catcher is absurd.

In 2019, Fournette caught 76 balls for 522 yards.

To give it some perspective, the 522 yards was second among all running backs that gained 1000 yards rushing, behind only McCaffrey.


Yeah, he has a good year under his belt as a pass catcher. He didn't in college and he was alright to start his NFL career. But he isn't dynamic at all which was my point. You know what you are getting with him - maybe 4 ypc (if that) and really not a threat to take it to the house. Bad pick at #4.
Barkley’s #2 overall status didn’t cement his second contract....  
Britt in VA : 9/16/2020 9:34 am : link
His performance thus far has.

Fix the line.
To be fair to Fournette  
Greg from LI : 9/16/2020 9:39 am : link
LSU had terrible QBs when he was there. Hard to show anything as a receiver in that environment.
Fournette had a 90 yard run and 81 yard run  
LBH15 : 9/16/2020 9:41 am : link
in his first 3 years. They were runs and not catches but I am not sure that matters when describing ability to "take it to the house". You might not like picking him at #4 but it must be due to something else.

Regarding this silly discussion on second contracts for #2 picks or early running back picks. Every GM is just hoping his pick turns out to be as good a player (on and off the field) as he can. And if he does, then the second contract will take care of itself. Not a guarantee but nothing is.
Funfact  
cosmicj : 9/16/2020 9:48 am : link
Did you know that the Giants have the THIRD most cap allocated to the RB position in the NFL (per Spotrac.)? #1 is SF with $18.6M, 2nd are the Panthers with $12.4, 3rd are the Giants with $12.3m. League avg franchise cap allocation is $8M.

Saquon currently has a cap hit of $8.6M. Ezekiel Elliott has a $10.9M hit by comparison.

I expect Barkley's next contract to be richer than Elliott's, but I really wonder whether it will be that much higher. Point is that the Giants are already operating under an unusually heavy allocation to RBs, so I think the Barkley 2nd contract really won't incrementally be such a big change.
For sure  
UConn4523 : 9/16/2020 9:52 am : link
i'm merely going off of my thoughts on him heading into that draft. Seemed to me that his style of play wasn't worth #4 overall at the time. He's still got time to make a nice career for himself but if the attitude rumors are true then its an uphill battle.
RE: Fournette had a 90 yard run and 81 yard run  
UConn4523 : 9/16/2020 9:54 am : link
In comment 14974121 LBH15 said:
Quote:
in his first 3 years. They were runs and not catches but I am not sure that matters when describing ability to "take it to the house". You might not like picking him at #4 but it must be due to something else.

Regarding this silly discussion on second contracts for #2 picks or early running back picks. Every GM is just hoping his pick turns out to be as good a player (on and off the field) as he can. And if he does, then the second contract will take care of itself. Not a guarantee but nothing is.


Difference of opinion on Fournette's ability. That's fine, don' really need to get into that, I just don't care about it in all honestly.

As for your second comment, that's correct, and why I don't understand why Sean was called out for something that was so incredibly obvious.
Giants picked the best player in the 2018 draft  
JonC : 9/16/2020 10:11 am : link
AND got their QB a year later.

They passed over the QBs in 2018 for the exact reason they should have, they didn't believe in one. Jones is showing more promise than Darnold, now it's about the talent around him and SB.

If no other player grades out above SB, it's an easy decision. There was no edge or LT who graded higher, let alone QB. What you don't want to do is force a pick based on position. The cap mechanics can all be handled as time goes on, as we've seen a million examples demonstrate.

The tune will change once the OL is at least average and SB explodes.
RE: RE: Fournette had a 90 yard run and 81 yard run  
LBH15 : 9/16/2020 10:34 am : link
In comment 14974143 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 14974121 LBH15 said:


Quote:


in his first 3 years. They were runs and not catches but I am not sure that matters when describing ability to "take it to the house". You might not like picking him at #4 but it must be due to something else.

Regarding this silly discussion on second contracts for #2 picks or early running back picks. Every GM is just hoping his pick turns out to be as good a player (on and off the field) as he can. And if he does, then the second contract will take care of itself. Not a guarantee but nothing is.



Difference of opinion on Fournette's ability. That's fine, don' really need to get into that, I just don't care about it in all honestly.

As for your second comment, that's correct, and why I don't understand why Sean was called out for something that was so incredibly obvious.


Gatorade dunk already said his point was that second contracts aren't doled out solely on being the #2 pick.

His usage of an odd set of comp RBs was what you all really jumped him on and, quite frankly, he didn't even need to include them in his post.

But nevertheless we like to be argumentative on BBI...like saying Fournette is one-dimensional :-)

Later.
RE: Barkley’s #2 overall status didn’t cement his second contract....  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/16/2020 11:40 am : link
In comment 14974113 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
His performance thus far has.

Fix the line.

That's a fair take, and much more accurate than the one you so eagerly agreed with earlier this morning.

#2 picks aren't guaranteed second contracts. Star players are, for the most part. Not all high draft picks become star players. It's really that simple - that was my point.
RE: Dunk,  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/16/2020 11:45 am : link
In comment 14974057 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
how you doing on coping with your fairly recent loss?

Hey Fiddy, thanks for checking in - I really appreciate it.

TBH, it's been a rough past month or so (2020 is the gift that keeps on taking) - another one of my brothers had the exact same heart attack that took his twin (thankfully he survived due to his wife jumping right in to administer CPR immediately when he went down), and then had one of our dogs run away from the dogsitter's house a couple of weeks ago (luckily, we found her after 36 hours out in the wild). I'm focusing on the fact that both of those scary moments turned out okay, which is better than the first half of the year was going.
RE: UConn's point..  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/16/2020 11:55 am : link
In comment 14974092 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
on this thread has been that even the recent 2nd contracts handed out aren't cap killers or even that tough to get out from.

But instead, we are provided lists of a bunch of RB's who never got 2nd contracts (of course overlooking the obvious examples of those that did get them and went on to have excellent careers like LT, Faulk, Peterson, Sanders, etc.

Are you going with dense or stubborn on this one? I didn't reply to UConn. I replied to Sean. And it wasn't about whether second contracts are cap killers. It was about draft status dictating a second contract rather than the player's actual merit by way of performance.

At no point did I suggest that Barkley's performance was not deserving of a second contract. His draft status, however, which is what Sean referred to for no reason that anyone asked him to, wasn't any different than the busts I listed. None of them had busted yet when they were drafted, but their second contracts were obviously no sure thing, since none of them earned one with the team that drafted them.

For something to be a sure thing, there can't be as many exceptions as the ones I rattled off, can there? Is Barkley extremely likely to get a second contract? Yes, of course. And I said exactly that in my post. But speaking in absolutes? Let's just say if the underlying point wasn't something you already agree with (in this case, Barkley getting a second contract, irrespective of draft position), or if that post had been penned by McL or NGD, you'd have been all over that same exact post for the same exact reason. You and I both know it.
that's just how your read Sean's post  
UConn4523 : 9/16/2020 1:12 pm : link
because you wanted to make an argument out of it. You really think he meant its automatic simply because he was the 2nd pick?

I read it completely differently.
Googs  
UConn4523 : 9/16/2020 1:23 pm : link
I stand by my comment. Fournette had the 28th lowest YPC last year based on players with atleast 100 carries (Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen is on this list so I'll give you 26th) . 2019 was the highest YPC of his career. Brandon Jacobs had a 74 yarder before, should we include him too?

Sorry, i'm not including the guy with the top RB's in the league who all have a much better skillset. Doesn't pass the eye test either and the numbers back it up. Add in the personal issues and he's a no go for me in this discussion. He's replacable.
replaceable  
UConn4523 : 9/16/2020 1:24 pm : link
*
Jesus..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/16/2020 1:27 pm : link
all Sean said was they weren't going to nickle and dime him on a 2nd contract.

It seems like that assumes Barkley isn't a complete stiff, injured or incarcerated.

You seemingly read a whole lot more into it but are calling me dense or stubborn.
Admit you were wrong  
Thegratefulhead : 9/16/2020 1:44 pm : link
This problem will be the downfall of mankind. Somehow, admission of being wrong is considered weakness. I would argue that it is a profound statement about one's character. I did not want a RB at 2 in 2018, I wanted Rosen or a trade down. Maybe a trade would have been better had it materialized. We will never know. It is reasonably safe to say I was wrong about Rosen. Never mind that SB is clearly an exceptional back, he possesses the type of leadership and character that is rare in a star player. He was not a good pick, he was a great pick. Ignore the talent and compare SB to OBJ, the difference is obvious. Let it go, it was good pick.
To the OP  
JonC : 9/16/2020 1:57 pm : link
what's your actual disagreement with gratefulhead?

Stick to that instead of what you're doing so far, it's a bad look.
Uconn  
LBH15 : 9/16/2020 2:12 pm : link
What you are talking about now is different. I only responded to your questionable stance that Fournette is one-dimensional. He caught the ball a lot in 2019 and clearly can run and catch. He is not one-dimensional...case closed.

This has nothing to do with your eye test, his personal issues or whether he is easily replaceable as a player.
RE: RE: Dunk,  
Big Blue '56 : 9/16/2020 2:36 pm : link
In comment 14974357 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14974057 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


how you doing on coping with your fairly recent loss?


Hey Fiddy, thanks for checking in - I really appreciate it.

TBH, it's been a rough past month or so (2020 is the gift that keeps on taking) - another one of my brothers had the exact same heart attack that took his twin (thankfully he survived due to his wife jumping right in to administer CPR immediately when he went down), and then had one of our dogs run away from the dogsitter's house a couple of weeks ago (luckily, we found her after 36 hours out in the wild). I'm focusing on the fact that both of those scary moments turned out okay, which is better than the first half of the year was going.


Wow! Stay strong.
RE: Uconn  
UConn4523 : 9/16/2020 2:45 pm : link
In comment 14974555 LBH15 said:
Quote:
What you are talking about now is different. I only responded to your questionable stance that Fournette is one-dimensional. He caught the ball a lot in 2019 and clearly can run and catch. He is not one-dimensional...case closed.

This has nothing to do with your eye test, his personal issues or whether he is easily replaceable as a player.


Ok
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