SI: Does Saquon fit the Giants timeline?

I saw a lot out of this team yesterday which tells me good coaching matter and can help turn a team around quickly. The blocking is unfortunate but who knows what it will look like a month from now after some continuity.

You can do this exercise for a lot of great players on bad teams.

At the end of the day, unless something changes soon, Barkley would have been a wasted #2 pick because the Giants failed to put people in front of him that can run block. It's very frustrating to watch.

1. He's super talented, you don't go wrong acquiring super talented players. Its not his fault that the Giants have not been able to build an OL yet.

2. Maybe DG's biggest fault, misreading the tea leaves when Eli was here. They were not a good team and could not contend. But he treated it like a last gasp at trying to win with Eli. Solder, Barkley. In this instance yes, Barkley was picked at the wrong time. DG said "Barkley will make the OL better", sorry that is flat out incorrect.

But, he’s going to get resigned long term.

People hammer this home since he’s a RB, but Josh Rosen is on a practice squad and Sam Darnold still has a lot of concerns.

You could certainly make the point, Bradley Chubb or Nelson we’re better suited as infrastructure builders.

a year or two before this last draft and found some gems. I'd feel a whole lot better about this offense and this team if we could run consistently and have Jones be the gravy on top.

In comment 14973000 eclipz928 said:

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At the end of the day, unless something changes soon, Barkley would have been a wasted #2 pick because the Giants failed to put people in front of him that can run block. It's very frustrating to watch.

That's a very flawed POV. You can make an argument that most players drafted high are bad picks if the team still stinks 3-4 years later.

Darnold/Rosen would be bad picks. Chubb or Nelson might have the Giants at the very same record as they do now.

run down by the time he enters year 4. You can only get ambushed so many times by 3 350lb DL the minute you get the hand off. It takes its toll not just physically but mentally.

you will never turn this around. It took LT to turn around the franchise back in the 80s. I don't believe were that far off even though with a new coach again and new systems we will have a losing season. We need to find a great pass rusher and more help along the OL and this team will improve. If we continue to fire the coaches every year because of bad seasons we will continue to fail. After this season no matter how bad it is I hope the coaching staff stays and we can gain some continuity to move forward.

not one hour ago. For the relatively short term, I would temper myself and SI with -- for the rest of this year, (1) we just are not going to face a front 7 as good as we did last night, (2) our OL play and Garrett's coaching/scheming are likely to improve at least somewhat. Last night SHOULD be SB's worst game. (Did you see how frustrated he was on the sideline? Can't blame him -- he wants "it.")

Longer view, yeah, this has taken too long, and the SB pick might have been "premature" in a sense. DG thought the OL was better than it was, and SB is a once-in-a generation RB, so you still don't pass on it, I guess.

Watching last night, that Barkley has wasted his talent on this team. Again, it comes down to blocking issues. I don’t remember conversations about Barkley making the OL better. (Doesn’t mean they didn’t happen.) But his running game—like the QB passing game, both Eli’s and DJ’s—is absolutely predicated on solid protection. It’s been a glaring weakness since 2012. Maybe this will be the year it improves with some new guys up front stepping up.

but last night was the first time I really started to feel like it may have been the wrong choice. It was very disheartening to watch a player of his caliber basically be rendered useless because the run blocking was so bad.

Yes it is one game, yes there are 3 new starters on the line, and yes it was Gates' first career action at Center. Things should get better as the weeks go on, BUT the point of drafting Barkley second overall is because he is supposed to be able to excel with an inferior line in front of him. If he needs good line play to have an impact, then he is a waste for the current state of this team. They would have been better off addressing the other holes on the team, and then drafting a RB after that when there is the opportunity for one to flourish.

Watching last night, can anybody really say that we are better off right now with Barkley instead of Quenton Nelson, Bradley Chubb (maybe no injury if he's here), etc.?

It made no sense then, and it makes less sense now. Without even a service offensive line, it just wasn't a useful pick. And now, we are going to likely waste his entire rookie deal. At the end of this year, he's going to demand a massive deal, in the neighborhood of 20 per year.

If this season continues downward, they should trade him to a contender for a 1 plus change

I am in the BPA and, at the time, I felt they needed a retool and run Eli out there. Hindsight says the OL was shambles and the coaching didn't help. Signing Solder i thought would be part of this retooling an instead he has been cause to do a reset. I was wrong and I think DG has been wrong. Again, thats the benefit of hindsight. That said, Barkley is maddeningly useless if he is not touching the ball. He doesn't seem to know how to read if there is a blitz and even when he's there to pick it up he is very bad at it. And though one of his best assets is being that relief valve there are times when you wonder what he's thinking when he heads out on that route. He's a great talent, but when you look at some of the other RB's picked in later rounds or with the RB by committee like the steelers, it seems we'd be just as well off having maybe aquired an additional pick in 2018 and taking an OL or WR after trading down.
Hindsight.

what I said on draft night and what I stand by today. Taking a RB at #2 overall is a luxury pick...not a pick you make when you're building a roster. It was a horrendous pick then and it's still a bad pick now. By the time we're able to take advantage of Barkley's skillset he will be off his rookie contract.

And then that brings up the looming debate as to how much of your salary cap you want to commit to a RB (the answer should be not much). Just a brutal pick that was a setback for the franchise.

In comment 14973045 Josh in the City said:

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what I said on draft night and what I stand by today. Taking a RB at #2 overall is a luxury pick...not a pick you make when you're building a roster. It was a horrendous pick then and it's still a bad pick now. By the time we're able to take advantage of Barkley's skillset he will be off his rookie contract. And then that brings up the looming debate as to how much of your salary cap you want to commit to a RB (the answer should be not much). Just a brutal pick that was a setback for the franchise.

And who did you want to pick on draft night? Be honest.

responding in interviews that the RB he tries to emulate most of all is...Barry Sanders.

Will be big in deciding what to do with Saquon. I’m starting to feel the same way about him that I did Odell. An immense talent that makes this team watchable but doesn’t move the needle on wins because of the reliance on other positions.

While I love what Saquon can give us, I’d be lying if I said if we can get a 1st and 4th for him that I wouldn’t take it and just get a serviceable RB in the 3rd-5th round and put the remaining resources in the OL, Pass Rush, DBs.

Didn't make the playoffs with the Chargers until his 4th season. They then went to the playoffs 5 out of 6 seasons following.

You might say, "yeah, but they didn't win a championship." Fair statement. That, to me, had a lot more to do with Rivers and Schottenheimer than it did LaDainian. It was not a mistake for the Chargers to draft LdT...he played for the Chargers for 9 seasons. Good years in there.

This is an overreaction. The Giants will work this out, Saquon is part of the solution. In fact, I think much of this is an overreaction to one game. The Steelers were loading the box, and as Tomlin said, they put their own secondary at risk to stop Saquon. It's incumbent upon Garrett and Daniel Jones to make them pay for that commitment over the top, and they didn't do that enough.

The game came down to a bad redzone INT, a failure to score a TD when you're set up inside the 3 yard line after a muffed punt, and a failure to recover a fumble with 4 blue jerseys around it immediately following the redzone INT.

Really, those 3 plays could've changed the whole dynamic and could've meant victory.

The Giants are 0-1, not 0-16. They could yet turn this around THIS year.

In comment 14973046 Britt in VA said:

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In comment 14973045 Josh in the City said: Quote: what I said on draft night and what I stand by today. Taking a RB at #2 overall is a luxury pick...not a pick you make when you're building a roster. It was a horrendous pick then and it's still a bad pick now. By the time we're able to take advantage of Barkley's skillset he will be off his rookie contract. And then that brings up the looming debate as to how much of your salary cap you want to commit to a RB (the answer should be not much). Just a brutal pick that was a setback for the franchise. And who did you want to pick on draft night? Be honest.

I can say I wanted Barkley, Nelson, or Josh Allen.

But after drafting Barkley I REALLY REALLY wanted us to trade back into the late 1st for Lamar Jackson. Imagine is we had both those guys in our backfield...

In comment 14973013 Chip said:

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you will never turn this around. It took LT to turn around the franchise back in the 80s. I don't believe were that far off even though with a new coach again and new systems we will have a losing season. We need to find a great pass rusher and more help along the OL and this team will improve. If we continue to fire the coaches every year because of bad seasons we will continue to fail. After this season no matter how bad it is I hope the coaching staff stays and we can gain some continuity to move forward.

And what did it take, six seasons after drafting LT until they won a Super Bowl?

This team still has a way to go, but if they can keep adding the right pieces and possibly win one or two championships during his tenure in NY, Barkley still makes the team better and someone worth being one of those pieces that you build around.

In comment 14973054 GoDeep13 said:

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In comment 14973046 Britt in VA said: Quote: In comment 14973045 Josh in the City said: Quote: what I said on draft night and what I stand by today. Taking a RB at #2 overall is a luxury pick...not a pick you make when you're building a roster. It was a horrendous pick then and it's still a bad pick now. By the time we're able to take advantage of Barkley's skillset he will be off his rookie contract. And then that brings up the looming debate as to how much of your salary cap you want to commit to a RB (the answer should be not much). Just a brutal pick that was a setback for the franchise. And who did you want to pick on draft night? Be honest. I can say I wanted Barkley, Nelson, or Josh Allen. But after drafting Barkley I REALLY REALLY wanted us to trade back into the late 1st for Lamar Jackson. Imagine is we had both those guys in our backfield...

Lamar Jackson would not be the Lamar Jackson that we know now, on this team. Lamar Jackson is in a PERFECT situation where his skills are perfectly built around by Harbaugh. I think Lamar Jackson on this team might look more like Geno Smith than the Lamar Jackson we know now.

we should just cut barkley now and be done with it. This way no more articles or second guessing.

In comment 14973013 Chip said:

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you will never turn this around. It took LT to turn around the franchise back in the 80s.

LT is probably the best defensive player in the history of the NFL and wrecked offensive gameplans all by himself.

Saquon Barkley is a very good RB whose impact on the game is limited by the position he plays. To compare him to LT is preposterous.

In comment 14973009 UConn4523 said:

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In comment 14973000 eclipz928 said: Quote: At the end of the day, unless something changes soon, Barkley would have been a wasted #2 pick because the Giants failed to put people in front of him that can run block. It's very frustrating to watch. That's a very flawed POV. You can make an argument that most players drafted high are bad picks if the team still stinks 3-4 years later. Darnold/Rosen would be bad picks. Chubb or Nelson might have the Giants at the very same record as they do now.

It's not a flawed view at all simply because running backs, on top of having a short life span in the NFL, are probably more dependent on the scheme and talent around them to be successful than any other position. As an individual player it takes a lot for a RB to contribute to the success of the team compared to pass rusher or a TE that can block.

The word "timeline" is appropriate to this conversation because a drafted defensive player or a QB that's good enough could probably last long enough through a rebuild to be contributers once the team is competitive again. That's not typically a reality for RB's for various reasons.

Forget about Saquon. His college QB was a runner. They ran a LOT of read option.

Carries in 2016:

Saquon 272 carries 18 TDs

McSorely 146 carries 7 TDs

Carries in 2017:

Saquon 217 carries 18 TDs

McSorely 144 carries 11TDs

Defenses couldn’t just key on Barkley

Teams can rebuild quickly, and certainly within the timeline of a gifted RB.

Will they do it, who knows, but if Judge turns out to be the real deal Barkley can certainly be in his prime for when it could happen.

"The word "timeline" is appropriate to this conversation because a drafted defensive player or a QB that's good enough could probably last long enough through a rebuild to be contributers once the team is competitive again. That's not typically a reality for RB's for various reasons."

that he's stuck having now what seems like a third year of a an offensive line that run blocks as if they thought the call was a screen pass.

plenty of time left to turn things around. And blame the rest of the picks/signings - they are part of why we aren't better right now. The Barkley obsession is nuts.

then "Sir Darnold the Savior" and xxx (Whoever)

about this is the "timeline" aspect.

If we didn't take Barkley, we'd likely have taken Darnold. That does nothing to change the situation we are in, and the cost of a QB is much higher than that of Barkley.

All it does is give people who bitched and whined about the pick when it was made another chance to bitch and whine.

Were saying in 2018. They selected a player that did not fit with the organization as it was going to need to be reconstructed. This is an argument a lot of posters weren't able to process. It could be a great player but the wrong pick.

I do think the answer is a bit more nuanced than the timeline. The short answer for the current Giants roster is he does not fit the timeline as it currently stands. However, Barkley fit the timeline for the team that DG grossly misread in the 2018 offseason. It was a pick meant to extend Eli's career and win one more with the roster as constructed at the time.

As other posters have aptly point out, the rebuild didn't really begin until the moment Jones was selected. Then it all became about the future. Unfortunately at that point, the Giants had already invested in a win now asset with their highest draft pick in decades.

As you can plainly see, the RB position just isn't effective without a competent oline. Maybe this changes as the season goes forward, but the reality of the situation is Barkley took a pretty good beating over the least 2+ seasons. This is the simple reason why the RB position deteriorates at an exponentially greater rate than most others on the field.

In comment 14973045 Josh in the City said:

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what I said on draft night and what I stand by today. Taking a RB at #2 overall is a luxury pick...not a pick you make when you're building a roster. It was a horrendous pick then and it's still a bad pick now. By the time we're able to take advantage of Barkley's skillset he will be off his rookie contract. And then that brings up the looming debate as to how much of your salary cap you want to commit to a RB (the answer should be not much). Just a brutal pick that was a setback for the franchise.

Who has a "luxury pick" drafting #2 overall? I don't get this analysis.

in as to whether Barkley was the right pick or not.

The simple question on the table with this OP/article is whether he fits the timeline of this team.

If he does, then he should be extended. If not, he should be traded for value.

In comment 14973076 steve in ky said:

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Teams can rebuild quickly, and certainly within the timeline of a gifted RB. Will they do it, who knows, but if Judge turns out to be the real deal Barkley can certainly be in his prime for when it could happen.

Well it's not just the tread left on the tires that has to be considered, you also have to figure out what kind of contract to give the player. Giants may have to consider giving Barkley a new deal as early as this off-season - what kind of salary do you think he's going to ask for, and what do you pay him to stay? There's time to sort that out, but as of today those are difficult questions to answer.

where he gained like one yard on nine carries and was continually hit in the backfield. Taking a handoff and running between tackles is not a strength.

Bradshaw a different back. Give him the ball and he will power his way for three, four, six yards Barclay stuffed eight times and then will break one for 60 yards.

We won with Bradshaw.

was able to avoid 2-3 guys in the backfield??

This isn't a RB technique thing. It is an OL thing.

it is Barkley

If they can get, say, a first and a second, maybe they do it.

In comment 14973201 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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it is Barkley

I legit chuckled out loud at this at my desk. I was thinking the same thing.

You people are going to turn me into FMiC. 1 Fucking game against arguably the best defense in football, with a veteran team, and a coach that has been there for a decade and you want to trade Barkley and return to bitching about a pick that was definitively not a bust. What team has better front 7? 3 new starters on our OL, 1 completely new the position and no preseason games? I fucking get it now. My apologies FMiC. Some of you are so stupid I am surprised you can shit in a toilet without completely missing the bowl.

In comment 14973223 Thegratefulhead said:

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You people are going to turn me into FMiC. 1 Fucking game against arguably the best defense in football, with a veteran team, and a coach that has been there for a decade and you want to trade Barkley and return to bitching about a pick that was definitively not a bust. What team has better front 7? 3 new starters on our OL, 1 completely new the position and no preseason games? I fucking get it now. My apologies FMiC. Some of you are so stupid I am surprised you can shit in a toilet without completely missing the bowl.

You again? You really are an idiot.

In comment 14973226 LawrenceTaylor56 said:

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In comment 14973223 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: You people are going to turn me into FMiC. 1 Fucking game against arguably the best defense in football, with a veteran team, and a coach that has been there for a decade and you want to trade Barkley and return to bitching about a pick that was definitively not a bust. What team has better front 7? 3 new starters on our OL, 1 completely new the position and no preseason games? I fucking get it now. My apologies FMiC. Some of you are so stupid I am surprised you can shit in a toilet without completely missing the bowl. You again? You really are an idiot.

Why? Make an argument why crying like a little bitch, knowing those facts is a reasonable position to take. What the actual fuck did you reasonably think was going to happen knowing all that we know about circumstance surrounding this game?

In comment 14973230 Thegratefulhead said:

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In comment 14973226 LawrenceTaylor56 said: Quote: In comment 14973223 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: You people are going to turn me into FMiC. 1 Fucking game against arguably the best defense in football, with a veteran team, and a coach that has been there for a decade and you want to trade Barkley and return to bitching about a pick that was definitively not a bust. What team has better front 7? 3 new starters on our OL, 1 completely new the position and no preseason games? I fucking get it now. My apologies FMiC. Some of you are so stupid I am surprised you can shit in a toilet without completely missing the bowl. You again? You really are an idiot. Why? Make an argument why crying like a little bitch, knowing those facts is a reasonable position to take. What the actual fuck did you reasonably think was going to happen knowing all that we know about circumstance surrounding this game?

When did I cry on this thread? You just sound like an uneducated miserable cunt, that's all.

Barkley was the right pick in 2018. Will he be a key reason we win another SB? Only time will tell.

Run blitzed every single time we were in a down and distance that we might even consider a run. Their front 7 is big, athletic and fast, the back of their defense is good too.

Our LT is a rookie.
Our RT is a career back up.
Our center is brand new.
An Offensive line needs time to gel(everyone should fucking know this by now)
They played a grand total of ZERO games together...fucking ZERO, not even a preseason game.

What were your realistic expectations going into this game? Please include why you felt the way you did. What past situation can you compare this to? What evidence did you use to come to your conclusion? Prove you are not a fucking moron. I will wait.

I'll tell you what the truth really is. You are are still butt hurt we picked Barkley and you have an irrational hatred of DG and will not be happy until he is run out of town on a pitchfork. The problem with you "tools" is that you keep trying to force the facts and circumstance to fit your argument rather than look for the truth.

In comment 14973231 LawrenceTaylor56 said:

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In comment 14973230 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: In comment 14973226 LawrenceTaylor56 said: Quote: In comment 14973223 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: You people are going to turn me into FMiC. 1 Fucking game against arguably the best defense in football, with a veteran team, and a coach that has been there for a decade and you want to trade Barkley and return to bitching about a pick that was definitively not a bust. What team has better front 7? 3 new starters on our OL, 1 completely new the position and no preseason games? I fucking get it now. My apologies FMiC. Some of you are so stupid I am surprised you can shit in a toilet without completely missing the bowl. You again? You really are an idiot. Why? Make an argument why crying like a little bitch, knowing those facts is a reasonable position to take. What the actual fuck did you reasonably think was going to happen knowing all that we know about circumstance surrounding this game? When did I cry on this thread? You just sound like an uneducated miserable cunt, that's all.

You have responded to me once on another thread and twice on this thread. It might be helpful if you could point to where I responded to you directly before this. Probably just a reading comprehension thing, not your fault. I can't help it if you thought I was speaking to you because you know that you frequently post stupid shit.

than his rookie year. Anyone can see he was getting hit immediately after the hand off on some plays.But there are other times where he appears hesitant,with his vision not being what it was.

Looks like he's turned into a 100% finesse running back

In comment 14973254 Thegratefulhead said:

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You have responded to me once on another thread and twice on this thread. It might be helpful if you could point to where I responded to you directly before this. Probably just a reading comprehension thing, not your fault. I can't help it if you thought I was speaking to you because you know that you frequently post stupid shit.

It's because you come on two different thread guns blazing when there isn't any arguments. Calling people morons for no reason other than the fact their opinions are different from yours. Yet I also never have bashed the Barkley pick. I was either for Darnold or Barkley. If neither, trade back. But go on, can't wait for your next vulgar-laced middle school response. I suggest you go outside and take a lap. Work on your anger issues.

and will get a 2nd contract here so i think his peak will line up perfectly with our current timeline

maybe with an H-back or FB leading the way? I saw none of that last night. The Oline needs to do a better job, run blocking, but JG needs to consider helping them somehow until they can come together. Guards were not good last night, the Center was brand new and Engram cannot and should not be on the end of the line blocking for the running game. Put him in the slot and put Smith or Toilolo on the end of the line to help block.