After last night, you know this was going to get brought up sooner than later. Not trying to stir the pot from the 2018 Draft, but I thought this was worth sharing.
To watch Saquon Barkley try and hurdle defenders on every small whiff of open field is like watching someone try and weave a Lamborghini through Jersey Shore traffic on a particularly beautiful Saturday in July. Every ounce of free pavement is a beautiful display, but unfortunately there is not nearly the room to legitimize breaking the thing out of the garage in the first place.
The player the Giants took No. 2 overall in 2018 has been trapped like this for the better part of two seasons; a superstar enveloped by the reality of a roster overhaul that is taking far too long. There have been moments of brilliance, sure. Rare moments when their personnel can overwhelm an opponent to give Barkley the ounce of space he requires to create havoc. But the fact remains after a Giants season-opening loss to the Pittsburgh Steelers at MetLife: Barkley is a valuable asset, but one that is needlessly depreciating in a place that cannot facilitate his best right now. |
Saquon - (
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The pick was not a bad one. The surrounding talent around him has been the problem. Not this player or his draft spot.
Steelers defense is elite. They were in the backfield all day. If Barkley has a little space he does more with it than anybody.
We have the QB. We can turn it around fast with Jones. I would keep him.
$10-15M per year for term to a RB doesn't seem like money well spent in this league. Doesn't meant it can't work out.
Especially if you have a QB on a rookie contract
RB was a hole. No play makers, nothing. Outside of Slayton, Barkley is still the only one.
If Hernandez and Solder and Zeitler were better this wouldn’t even be a conversation. For whatever reason/s why the OL is taking so long to develop, that’s the reason we haven’t been better, quicker. It’s unfortunate but just waiting until we are better on the OL to add pieces has plenty of downside as well.
"If..." Well, you could say a lot of things would be true, iiiiiiiiif.....
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what I said on draft night and what I stand by today. Taking a RB at #2 overall is a luxury pick...not a pick you make when you're building a roster. It was a horrendous pick then and it's still a bad pick now. By the time we're able to take advantage of Barkley's skillset he will be off his rookie contract.
And then that brings up the looming debate as to how much of your salary cap you want to commit to a RB (the answer should be not much). Just a brutal pick that was a setback for the franchise.
Who has a "luxury pick" drafting #2 overall? I don't get this analysis.
Nobody (unless you by fluke you lost a star QB and your season fell into the gutter). And that's exactly why you don't see RB's ever going that high anymore!
Especially if you have a QB on a rookie contract
No...just please god don't let Gettleman (or whoever is our GM at the time) buy into this absolutely absurd concept. I'd MUUUUCH rather invest that money into another stud offensive lineman or defender and use a day 2 draft pick on a RB who will be more than serviceable.
Committing long term big $$ to a RB is a recipe for disaster and absolutely not how you build a roster. If you have the advantage of having a QB on a rookie contract use your dollars wisely, not on foolish luxury items that don't lead to wins!
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At the end of the day, unless something changes soon, Barkley would have been a wasted #2 pick because the Giants failed to put people in front of him that can run block. It's very frustrating to watch.
That's a very flawed POV. You can make an argument that most players drafted high are bad picks if the team still stinks 3-4 years later.
Darnold/Rosen would be bad picks. Chubb or Nelson might have the Giants at the very same record as they do now.
Your point is valid, but there definitely is something to be said for the fact that Barkley's talents are not being taken advantage of with the OL continuing to be a problem.
At least Chubb would be more likely to contribute as a pass-rusher regardless of the talent that surrounds him, and Nelson would potentially be able to open holes for some other RB. But Barkley is bottled up by the players around him in a way that makes his talent go largely to waste.
That's not something that is simply a function of any great player on any bad team. Some positions are just more foundational than others. And unfortunately, with the benefit of hindsight, we can see that the foundation was not as secure as DG thought/hoped it was when he drafted Barkley, and as it relates to the OL, it hasn't improved all that much since.
It does look like Thomas is the real deal. If Peart and Lemieux turn out to be as well, then we're most of the way there. But the portion of Barkley's career that has already been spent with an abysmal OL is a waste so far, no matter what.
As long as the wear and tear behind this crappy OL doesn't start to take its toll, the pick can still be redeemed. But if the constant pounding with nothing to show for it does begin to add up, it will have been an unfortunate waste of one of the most physically talented players to ever wear blue.
Elite players aren't luxury items. They are pieces to build around.
I think he dances behind the line too much, but the criticism of his run totals is disingenuous. The run blocking sucked. But Barkley has to find ways to be involved in the passing game.
I was not a fan of the pick. I wanted a QB but didn't really know which one (I don't watch CFB so I didn't really have a view on any specific player). I admired DG's willingness to ignore the pressures to draft Eli's successor at the time, but always felt RB was the wrong pick (and subsequently credited him for going with Jones despite the criticism). I would have preferred a trade down. And with hindsight, I would have preferred Nelson.
If the Giants still suck next year, it's because DG didn't fix the OL and the defense still sucks - not because of the Barkley pick. I think we focus too much on him.
Elite players aren't luxury items. They are pieces to build around.
Position value matters. Elite RB's are always 100% of the time luxury items in today's NFL.
If everything else is set and you need that one game breaker to get over the Super Bowl hump then MAAYYYBBEEEE I consider taking that risk. But to commit long term big $$ to a RB for a team that is currently being built to hopefully contend one day, that notion is absolutely mind boggling. Almost as mind boggling and throwing away a #2 overall pick on a RB.
That he is freakishly fast for his size or that he jumps over guys? That makes him Herschel Walker or Reggie Bush not one of the best football players in the NFL and the Barry Sanders comparisons are ludacris. Barry Sanders was almost impossible to tackle. Definitely not the case with Barkley.
Which part of NFL football running back is he good at? He doesn't run between the tackles well. He can't pass block at all. He doesn't break tackles. Even with all his speed he doesn't ever seem to get open in the passing game.
Feel free to correct me. But I just don't see it. I see an amazing athlete who the Giants try to force the ball to that other teams can shut down with ease because the Giants don't have a dominant OL.
With this OL Barkley's best use would be as a decoy until the Giants can move the LBs away from the box by passing over them. Last night was an embarrassment.
The idea that only mid-round RB's are on winning teams isn't just absurd, it is wrong too.
You build a good team through amassing good players. Drafting Barkley is adding a good player. Drafting Darnold would not be looked at as that yet. The more good players you have, the better chance you have to win.
That he is freakishly fast for his size or that he jumps over guys? That makes him Herschel Walker or Reggie Bush not one of the best football players in the NFL and the Barry Sanders comparisons are ludacris. Barry Sanders was almost impossible to tackle. Definitely not the case with Barkley.
Which part of NFL football running back is he good at? He doesn't run between the tackles well. He can't pass block at all. He doesn't break tackles. Even with all his speed he doesn't ever seem to get open in the passing game.
Feel free to correct me. But I just don't see it. I see an amazing athlete who the Giants try to force the ball to that other teams can shut down with ease because the Giants don't have a dominant OL.
With this OL Barkley's best use would be as a decoy until the Giants can move the LBs away from the box by passing over them. Last night was an embarrassment.
To act like Barkley isn't a great RB is ridiculous. Even though I absolutely hated the pick and don't want to pay him, it's easy for me to acknowledge that on any team with an average oline Barkley would look like Superman. There is no RB in the history of football that would have been able to do anything behind that oline last night.
But that's also why having star RB's are a luxury. They aren't the difference b/w a winning team and a losing team. But they CAN make already good teams better. Put Barkley on the Panthers and I honestly don't think you see a big difference b/w him and McCaffrey....that's my honest opinion.
Do you know which RB with over 2,500 career rushing yards has the largest % of negative yardage runs? I'm guessing you don't.
He thinks $10-15M for a top player is expensive!
The idea that only mid-round RB's are on winning teams isn't just absurd, it is wrong too.
You build a good team through amassing good players. Drafting Barkley is adding a good player. Drafting Darnold would not be looked at as that yet. The more good players you have, the better chance you have to win.
You don't now what that a luxury item is? It's something you don't purchase until everything else in your life (or on your roster) is already built and stable. I already said that I would almost never invest a high first round draft pick or long big $$ in a running back. It's almost always a poor investment and Barkley is just another example of that. I said it on draft night and I still say it today (though I believe a lot more people would agree with the notion now than back then). You don't build your roster around luxury items....you need to build the foundation.
You can look it all up yourself or search the archives. There's been a shift the past few years that's now showing the incredible positional value offered, but if you want to ignore it or scoff it off as a luxury then so be it.
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You have responded to me once on another thread and twice on this thread. It might be helpful if you could point to where I responded to you directly before this. Probably just a reading comprehension thing, not your fault. I can't help it if you thought I was speaking to you because you know that you frequently post stupid shit.
It's because you come on two different thread guns blazing when there isn't any arguments. Calling people morons for no reason other than the fact their opinions are different from yours. Yet I also never have bashed the Barkley pick. I was either for Darnold or Barkley. If neither, trade back. But go on, can't wait for your next vulgar-laced middle school response. I suggest you go outside and take a lap. Work on your anger issues.
It isn't that it is a different opinion, it is that it is a ridiculous one. I am tired of the people STILL whining about the number 2 pick in the 2018 draft. I am with the owners on this season. If at season's end, this looks like a team on the rise, I will be good. This should be all of our expectations because it is what the people paying the coaches, players and management have told them they will be held accountable to. It is pretty transparent, a simple Google search should work. Those quotes have been shared on the site ad nauseam.
There is nothing to really take away from last night because of the circumstance surrounding this season. Certainly no indictment of the 2nd pick in 2018 or DG in general. It was in essence a preseason game between the one of the least talented teams in the NFL with an entire new coaching staff, a completely new OL vs a team predicted to compete for a SB with a SB winning coach, QB and a championship caliber defense. I just...can't.
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are not 100% luxury items. I don't even know what the fuck that means. Are you saying that no RB's should be paid??
The idea that only mid-round RB's are on winning teams isn't just absurd, it is wrong too.
You build a good team through amassing good players. Drafting Barkley is adding a good player. Drafting Darnold would not be looked at as that yet. The more good players you have, the better chance you have to win.
You don't now what that a luxury item is? It's something you don't purchase until everything else in your life (or on your roster) is already built and stable. I already said that I would almost never invest a high first round draft pick or long big $$ in a running back. It's almost always a poor investment and Barkley is just another example of that. I said it on draft night and I still say it today (though I believe a lot more people would agree with the notion now than back then). You don't build your roster around luxury items....you need to build the foundation.
How the fuck does that work in the real world?? If a stud RB is there, are the teams at the top of the draft just supposed to let them fall so they don't take a stab at a luxury? "Hey, we're a bad team and we can get a 7th round RB, so we'll just let the good teams at the bottom of the round take a potential game-changer"?? Again - you are confusing Barkley and top RB's as being the same as a 5th round guy.
A person that touches the ball 20 times a game isn't a fucking luxury - it is an integral part of the offense.
Last year, with the worst OL in football and a rookie QB, he was on pace for 1850 yards.
He has had little help from the OL. Played with a fading Eli and a rookie QB last year. And the guy puts up elite numbers.
And you don't see the explosive plays? I don't know what to tell you.
If we're doing a redraft of all NFL players right now, Barkley is at the top tier players after the QBs.
And who did you want to pick on draft night? Be honest.
If it's a bad pick, and the alternatives that any fan would have preferred from their couch are also bad picks, it doesn't make the actual pick any less bad. It's not like there aren't players that were taken within a few slots of where we took Barkley that are producing at a higher level right now with less dependency on their supporting cast.
I understand the point you're trying to make, but if we're using "can draft better than Josh would have" as our benchmark for grading DG, I'd say we're maybe being a little too forgiving.
Last year, with the worst OL in football and a rookie QB, he was on pace for 1850 yards.
He has had little help from the OL. Played with a fading Eli and a rookie QB last year. And the guy puts up elite numbers.
And you don't see the explosive plays? I don't know what to tell you.
If we're doing a redraft of all NFL players right now, Barkley is at the top tier players after the QBs.
And our record those two years were 5-11 and 4-12 which directly proves the point.
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He had 2000+ yards from scrimmage as a rookie. The most of ANY PLAYER IN THE NFL that year.
Last year, with the worst OL in football and a rookie QB, he was on pace for 1850 yards.
He has had little help from the OL. Played with a fading Eli and a rookie QB last year. And the guy puts up elite numbers.
And you don't see the explosive plays? I don't know what to tell you.
If we're doing a redraft of all NFL players right now, Barkley is at the top tier players after the QBs.
And our record those two years were 5-11 and 4-12 which directly proves the point.
And what do you think our record would be those two years with Darnold or Nelson INSTEAD of Barkley. Different?
What point is proven about Barkley?
And people remember his thread week 1 of 2018 when Darnold beat the Lions.
Knowing what we know today - I'd much rather have Barkley than Darnold. It isn't even an argument.
Josh knows that too. He's just too much of a stubborn fuck to admit it. Hence, we now get takes that RB's are luxuries.
And people remember his thread week 1 of 2018 when Darnold beat the Lions.
Knowing what we know today - I'd much rather have Barkley than Darnold. It isn't even an argument.
Josh knows that too. He's just too much of a stubborn fuck to admit it. Hence, we now get takes that RB's are luxuries.
Let's not forget Josh's opinion of taking Daniel Jones, either.
I can't believe anybody tries to make it.
We drafted one of the best players in the league. He produced at a high level despite awful surrounding talent. Nobody picked immediately after him has been special.
The rest of the top 10 after Barkley:
Sam Darnold
Denzel Ward
Bradley Chubb
Quenton Nelson
Josh Allen
Roquan Smith
Mike McGlinchey
Josh Rosen
You can make the case for QB Josh Allen. That is it.
Or Darnold > Jones?
I agree with you, but that's the rub, a lot of people here still don't. Even in hindsight.
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is that Josh spent the entirety of 2018 saying that we absolutely could not pass on taking a franchise QB. He then said after the season that we sucked even with Barkley so we could suck without him, whereas with Darnold, we'd have a year of a franchise QB to build on.
And people remember his thread week 1 of 2018 when Darnold beat the Lions.
Knowing what we know today - I'd much rather have Barkley than Darnold. It isn't even an argument.
Josh knows that too. He's just too much of a stubborn fuck to admit it. Hence, we now get takes that RB's are luxuries.
Let's not forget Josh's opinion of taking Daniel Jones, either.
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In comment 14973406 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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is that Josh spent the entirety of 2018 saying that we absolutely could not pass on taking a franchise QB. He then said after the season that we sucked even with Barkley so we could suck without him, whereas with Darnold, we'd have a year of a franchise QB to build on.
And people remember his thread week 1 of 2018 when Darnold beat the Lions.
Knowing what we know today - I'd much rather have Barkley than Darnold. It isn't even an argument.
Josh knows that too. He's just too much of a stubborn fuck to admit it. Hence, we now get takes that RB's are luxuries.
Let's not forget Josh's opinion of taking Daniel Jones, either.
We reset the whole thing this off season. It is what it is. That shit is over. Barkley is a Giant, we didn't trade the pick, we didn't pick Darnold. The butt hurt here lasts forever. I didn't want Barkley at 2, I was wrong, DG was right. End of story. Yesterday seemed extremely predictable to me. Of course the Steelers were going to sell out to stop Barkley with that D. What did anyone reasonably expect? I know you want keep running but we should have completely abandoned it once faced with reality. Every time we ran, it put us in an unfavorable down and distance, every single time. That 19 play drive was beautiful and encouraging. I don't care about the tipped pass. I care about the sustained execution without penalty in a very young team. We should have have stayed in the big personnel package and spread them out until they stopped us.
Good job
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And who did you want to pick on draft night? Be honest.
If it's a bad pick, and the alternatives that any fan would have preferred from their couch are also bad picks, it doesn't make the actual pick any less bad. It's not like there aren't players that were taken within a few slots of where we took Barkley that are producing at a higher level right now with less dependency on their supporting cast.
I understand the point you're trying to make, but if we're using "can draft better than Josh would have" as our benchmark for grading DG, I'd say we're maybe being a little too forgiving.
It's not really the alternative being who Josh would pick, but rather the alternatives available for us to pick in general. As KWall just listed, the only real guys that should have been in consideration (in hindsight) are Nelson and Allen.
For Nelson, as I mentioned, that would have been a trade down scenario. Who knows if the value was there for that. For Allen, well, we got our QB the very next year, and personally, I think I like Jones more than Allen but that's arguable.
Any way you slice it, you can't really argue that DG got an elite talent with the #2 overall pick. Now you can disagree on the team building strategy of it, but as far as value for the pick, he knocked it out of the park. You can't as for much more from a top 5 draft pick than what Saquon is.
2018 Draft redo. Giants are on the clock.
You're taking?
2018 Draft redo. Giants are on the clock.
You're taking?
Personally I would have only considered Chubb (out of the non QB's). If we include QB's I would have been good with Darnold and would have been wrong (unless he just took to things better here than the Jets which I guess is possible but not a reasonable assumption with the way things have gone).
Slayton, Jones, Barkley, better OL. The offense is much better. And very young.
The Steelers may have the best defense in the NFL. We were right there until that pick.
The defense played a lot better than I expected too.
Promising start. A loss sucks but Steelers are SB contenders. We have to win next week vs CHI.