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SI: Does Saquon fit the Giants timeline?

LawrenceTaylor56 : 9/15/2020 11:16 am
After last night, you know this was going to get brought up sooner than later. Not trying to stir the pot from the 2018 Draft, but I thought this was worth sharing.

Quote:
To watch Saquon Barkley try and hurdle defenders on every small whiff of open field is like watching someone try and weave a Lamborghini through Jersey Shore traffic on a particularly beautiful Saturday in July. Every ounce of free pavement is a beautiful display, but unfortunately there is not nearly the room to legitimize breaking the thing out of the garage in the first place.

The player the Giants took No. 2 overall in 2018 has been trapped like this for the better part of two seasons; a superstar enveloped by the reality of a roster overhaul that is taking far too long. There have been moments of brilliance, sure. Rare moments when their personnel can overwhelm an opponent to give Barkley the ounce of space he requires to create havoc. But the fact remains after a Giants season-opening loss to the Pittsburgh Steelers at MetLife: Barkley is a valuable asset, but one that is needlessly depreciating in a place that cannot facilitate his best right now.

Saquon - ( New Window )
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You do draft a RB at #2  
KWALL2 : 9/15/2020 3:25 pm : link
if he is clearly the best prospect. And now 2 years in he's proven it.

Most NFL teams rank the players the same at the top. You see the next 10. You can't make a case that he wasn't a very good pick. At worst the 2nd best of the top 10 that year. Outside of QB Allen, he was the best pick.

Personally I loved and love the Barkley pick  
Bill L : 9/15/2020 3:25 pm : link
I think that the teams who ultimately do the best have assembled not only the best players but also the best playmakers.
RE: I liked Darnold  
Dinger : 9/15/2020 3:27 pm : link
In comment 14973427 Josh in the City said:
Quote:
over the other QB's but my argument on draft night (and today) isn't that we should have taken Darnold over Barkley. It's that we shouldn't have taken a RB at #2 overall under any circumstance. I'm not a college scout so I wasn't professionally evaluating the college QB's against each other. But yes, I absolutely thought Eli was finished and I would have taken one of the QB's over Barkley that year. No matter how good Barkley would eventually come, it was still the wrong pick then and it's still the wrong pick now. Those saying that "yea, but you wanted Darnold" - you simply don't get it. It wasn't about drafting Darnold or Barkley. It was DON'T DRAFT A FUCKING RB AT #2 OVERALL WHEN YOUR ROSTER IS IN SHAMBLES!

Here's another thing I differ from you and a few others on...Eli being done. They had signed Solder and Omemah and made moves I thought, at the time, would helpprotect Eli, so why not get an elite back to ALSO help take focus/pressure away from your older QB? And along those lines IF those signings had worked out, I still think Eli is starting for the Giants and thats taking nothing away from how good Jones is.
Not a popular opinion ...  
Jim from Katonah : 9/15/2020 3:28 pm : link
... but for all of Saquon’s sensational, explosive open field ability, I’m consistently shocked at how unpolished he is as a route runner (and as a blocker in protection). When you watch McCaffrey, Kamara, or even just James White, you consistently see sharp edges and disciplined routes. There were several routes he ran last night where he just looked lost — soft, rounded cuts, getting tangled up with defenders on that goal line route, dropping passes.

I love the guy, loved the pick, but I’m getting worried about his trajectory. He’s a guy who has caught 90 passes in a season, so maybe my eyes are lying, but he seems to be regressing. I suspect that he’s trying to live up to his Superman personae — but sometimes on a 3rd and 4 I’d just settle for a crisp James White isolation route.

RE: Not a popular opinion ...  
Dinger : 9/15/2020 3:38 pm : link
In comment 14973448 Jim from Katonah said:
Quote:
... but for all of Saquon’s sensational, explosive open field ability, I’m consistently shocked at how unpolished he is as a route runner (and as a blocker in protection). When you watch McCaffrey, Kamara, or even just James White, you consistently see sharp edges and disciplined routes. There were several routes he ran last night where he just looked lost — soft, rounded cuts, getting tangled up with defenders on that goal line route, dropping passes.

I love the guy, loved the pick, but I’m getting worried about his trajectory. He’s a guy who has caught 90 passes in a season, so maybe my eyes are lying, but he seems to be regressing. I suspect that he’s trying to live up to his Superman personae — but sometimes on a 3rd and 4 I’d just settle for a crisp James White isolation route.


Totally agree. Watching him last night you got the feeling that if he was able to pick up the blitz better or run slightly better routes, the outcome would have been significantly different. I hope this staff can 'teach' him or scheme around these deficiencies.
.  
Walnut : 9/15/2020 3:41 pm : link
It's not necessarily a wrong argument. RBs have the shortest shelf life of any position. If you take one, you try and rebuild fast and win, otherwise it's a waste. By the time you're good again, the RB is likely nearing the end of his prime. Tomlinson is an exception, yet even he

Conversely, someone like Nelson could've been our Joe Thomas for a decade. Chubb could've been like Strahan for us for a decade.

A QB like Darnold and Rosen, without the benefit of hindsight, could've been our QB for 15 years. A RB at #2 is a poor allocation of resources unless they planned to do everything in their power to win now.

McAffrey went to a team that (at the time) had a good QB in place, veteran coaching staff, and was just in the SB a couple years prior with solid pieces around him. RB made sense for them, they could retool quickly.

Adrian Peterson went to a Vikings team that had great talent on both sides of the ball but just had no QB. AP made sense for them since they had contender talent if they just had a decent QB (made the playoffs with Jackson then got Favre).

SB could very well be like Tomlinson and have an 8-year prime, but based on the odds... SB just didn't make much sense for us if we were in a true rebuild. Over players that could anchor our lines for a decade.

Barkley  
Percy : 9/15/2020 3:47 pm : link
"Gifted," "special," "elite" and on and on. He does not show any of that in his play. We're not the right team for him? OK. Trade him to one that is.
Walnut  
UConn4523 : 9/15/2020 3:50 pm : link
my argument assumes 2 things. First, that the teams drafting RB's are aware of the wear and tear which goes into their overall grade. Second, not all RB's are created equal when it comes to durability. Case in point the 2015 draft. Yes, we needed a LT but had it not been for Gurley's injury I think the Giants take him (well, he likely doesn't fall to us).

There are varying degrees of risk for every position. We've got Frank Gore starting on Sunday for the Jets and you'd got David Wilson who's career was over in the blink of an eye. But you have a lot of in between and I honestly don't think the RB position gets as injured at the rate people make it seem. Typically speaking bad RB's get a couple years of burn and then fade away - it skews the shelf-life data immensely.
RE: RE: Not a popular opinion ...  
Jim from Katonah : 9/15/2020 3:51 pm : link
In comment 14973462 Dinger said:
Quote:
In comment 14973448 Jim from Katonah said:


Quote:


... but for all of Saquon’s sensational, explosive open field ability, I’m consistently shocked at how unpolished he is as a route runner (and as a blocker in protection). When you watch McCaffrey, Kamara, or even just James White, you consistently see sharp edges and disciplined routes. There were several routes he ran last night where he just looked lost — soft, rounded cuts, getting tangled up with defenders on that goal line route, dropping passes.

I love the guy, loved the pick, but I’m getting worried about his trajectory. He’s a guy who has caught 90 passes in a season, so maybe my eyes are lying, but he seems to be regressing. I suspect that he’s trying to live up to his Superman personae — but sometimes on a 3rd and 4 I’d just settle for a crisp James White isolation route.




Totally agree. Watching him last night you got the feeling that if he was able to pick up the blitz better or run slightly better routes, the outcome would have been significantly different. I hope this staff can 'teach' him or scheme around these deficiencies.


Ever watch the way the Pats get James White lined up wide and run a perfect Isolation route against whoever is out there? Same goes with Kamara (and obviously with McCaffery). That play can be murder on a defense on those absolutely-need-a-first down moments. Either it’s not in Saquon’s skill set or it hasn’t been drilled in yet (which would be surprising since he seems like such an intelligent, earnest,!hard working guy) or I don’t know what. But right now, for a guy with great stats and more highlights in 3 years than most top RBs have in a career ... he just seems oddly limited. When it’s 3rd and 3 and we have this crown jewel talent, how come he can’t be schemed open?
Barkley ran really good routes year 1  
UConn4523 : 9/15/2020 3:56 pm : link
so I know its there. I think he's playing with the world on his shoulders, is learning a new offense, and was getting crushed behind the LOS. I need to see more before saying he's now a bad route runner - it doesn't seem like a logical conclusion to be had right now.
RE: I liked Darnold  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/15/2020 3:59 pm : link
In comment 14973427 Josh in the City said:
Quote:
over the other QB's but my argument on draft night (and today) isn't that we should have taken Darnold over Barkley. It's that we shouldn't have taken a RB at #2 overall under any circumstance. I'm not a college scout so I wasn't professionally evaluating the college QB's against each other. But yes, I absolutely thought Eli was finished and I would have taken one of the QB's over Barkley that year. No matter how good Barkley would eventually come, it was still the wrong pick then and it's still the wrong pick now. Those saying that "yea, but you wanted Darnold" - you simply don't get it. It wasn't about drafting Darnold or Barkley. It was DON'T DRAFT A FUCKING RB AT #2 OVERALL WHEN YOUR ROSTER IS IN SHAMBLES!


That's complete bullshit. It was most certainly Darnold over Barkley - you kept saying over and over again that you don't pass on a franchise QB for a RB.

I was about drafting Darnold, which is why you gloated week 1 when the Jets beat the Lions. Hell, at the end of last season, you still said you were sticking by Darnold being better than Jones.

Saying it wasn't about Darnold vs. Barkley FOR YOU - is complete and utter horseshit.
There’s a bunch of things to worry about,  
Big Blue '56 : 9/15/2020 4:00 pm : link
SB is not one of those things
RE: RE: I liked Darnold  
Josh in the City : 9/15/2020 4:14 pm : link
In comment 14973484 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 14973427 Josh in the City said:


Quote:


over the other QB's but my argument on draft night (and today) isn't that we should have taken Darnold over Barkley. It's that we shouldn't have taken a RB at #2 overall under any circumstance. I'm not a college scout so I wasn't professionally evaluating the college QB's against each other. But yes, I absolutely thought Eli was finished and I would have taken one of the QB's over Barkley that year. No matter how good Barkley would eventually come, it was still the wrong pick then and it's still the wrong pick now. Those saying that "yea, but you wanted Darnold" - you simply don't get it. It wasn't about drafting Darnold or Barkley. It was DON'T DRAFT A FUCKING RB AT #2 OVERALL WHEN YOUR ROSTER IS IN SHAMBLES!



That's complete bullshit. It was most certainly Darnold over Barkley - you kept saying over and over again that you don't pass on a franchise QB for a RB.

I was about drafting Darnold, which is why you gloated week 1 when the Jets beat the Lions. Hell, at the end of last season, you still said you were sticking by Darnold being better than Jones.

Saying it wasn't about Darnold vs. Barkley FOR YOU - is complete and utter horseshit.



I wanted a QB b/c Eli was finished and it was considered a strong QB class. I personally liked Darnold best but I'm not the talent evaluator so I would have been happy with any of the QB's that year (at the time). The only thing I certainly didn't want was a fucking RB at #2 overall when the team had an absurd number of needs. And clearly I was right (and you're still wrong!).
You were right??  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/15/2020 4:16 pm : link
Picking Darnold or Rosen would have been right??

You are fucking delusional
RE: You were right??  
Josh in the City : 9/15/2020 4:19 pm : link
In comment 14973509 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Picking Darnold or Rosen would have been right??

You are fucking delusional

I still don't think Darnold is a bust. He sure as hell hasn't looked good but the team around him is atrocious too. Josh Allen is legit and has all the tools to be a very good QB. And Baker is still a huge question mark. Only sure things right now are that both Josh Rosen and Saquon Barkley would have been the wrong picks.
But..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/15/2020 4:21 pm : link
you wanted a QB - apparently any QB. Barkley is now equated to a QB who may already be out of the league?

Do you not realize how moronic that take is?
RE: But..  
Josh in the City : 9/15/2020 4:23 pm : link
In comment 14973520 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
you wanted a QB - apparently any QB. Barkley is now equated to a QB who may already be out of the league?

Do you not realize how moronic that take is?

Seems like you're having trouble following the conversation. Hard to have a discussion with someone who can't keep up.
Darnold not being a bust yet  
UConn4523 : 9/15/2020 4:27 pm : link
isn't really a glowing endorsement. They will have to figure out his 5th year option and whether or not to offer contract #2. The fact that he's been so stagnant isn't good.

But, I suspect it won't matter much for them because their next HC won't want him anyway and will take the job under the premise that he will have a new QB.

So either way, wasted pick unless he has a revelation in the next year or so.
I think you are being pretty clear  
UConn4523 : 9/15/2020 4:29 pm : link
you simply didn't want any RB at #2. We all get that. The problem is the conversation can't really stop there even if you want it to. We were going to be picking a QB most likely, and in all liklihood it would have been the guy you wanted (and I would have signed up for) who looks like he's going to be a career backup.
UConn  
Josh in the City : 9/15/2020 4:30 pm : link
I agree with you. But he's also been put in about as bad a situation as possible. No oline, no WR's, no TE, and no running game. As bad as our oline is, at least we have some legitimate NFL weapons. Hard to actually evaluate a QB in Darnold's situation.
Again, not really about what Giants should have done with  
LBH15 : 9/15/2020 4:30 pm : link
#2 pick. That ship has sailed and we have a very good RB on a team that still arguably isn't near ready to win.

Does Saquon fit the Giants timeline or are they best served trading him for a good amount of value?

We can sell the "generational" thing that we were sold on two years ago. Its not like Giants can't draft another running back and have him on a rookie contract.
A trip..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/15/2020 4:32 pm : link
down memory lane:
Quote:
It's not just drafting
Josh in the City : 2/15/2019 12:20 pm : link
it's drafting the right way to build a team. I'm not trying to knock Barkley right now but that pick was asinine. He could be the greatest RB in the history of the NFL and it's still a bad pick.


LOL. Greatest RB ever - bad pick!

And the smoking gun:
Quote:
The Giants are Obviously Taking a QB
Josh in the City : 3/21/2018 2:07 pm
First of all, take anything you hear in the media with a huge grain of salt. This isn't the Jerry Reese led Giants. Gettleman and Co. understand the importance of secrecy and the advantage it gives the team both leading up to the draft as well as on draft day. How many times in the past decade have teams known who we were targeting and thus jumped ahead of us to grab the player we wanted? Everything we're hearing from the beat writers is b/c that's what the Giants want us (and the rest of the country) to hear.

Now looking at the current state of this team, anyone who thinks we don't take a QB at #2 is completely fooling themselves. This was a 3-13 team last year that is nowhere close to competing for a Super Bowl. Even if you believe Eli has two good years left in him, do you really believe this team has a shot at winning it all in that time-frame? The answer is no.

So if we're not competing for a Super Bowl in the short term, that diminishes the importance of drafting a player who must improve the team immediately. So why are we signing veterans like Jonathan Stewart, Nate Solder etc? Because Gettleman also understands the need to fix the locker room by bringing in leaders, building a true veteran presence, and establishing a winning culture. It's also important to start rebuilding the oline unit both in the short term and then eventually for the future.


This was eerily on point! And wrong!
Quote:

Josh in the City : 3/21/2018 2:20 pm : link

Not really funny b/c it actually validates my point even further so thank you for pointing it out. Pretty sure Dave Brown was picked 17th overall which is exactly where an average team would be picking and exactly why they would be stuck in QB purgatory. Much harder (though admittedly not impossible) to find a franchise QB at pick #17 than it is at #2.


We lost a once in a generation chance to take a QB!!
Quote:
Sure take another year to evaluate Webb (with Eli starting) and forfeit a once in a generation opportunity doing it. That sounds like a smart plan to you?


Isn't this exactly where we would be with Darnold or Rosen??
Quote:
It's actually quite sad
Josh in the City : 3/21/2018 3:37 pm : link
that the masochists on this board would willingly put themselves through QB purgatory again. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.


Umm. You wanted ANYONE but Barkley?? Sounds a lot like you wanted a QB. A franchise one.
RE: A trip..  
Josh in the City : 9/15/2020 4:36 pm : link
In comment 14973538 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
down memory lane:


Quote:


It's not just drafting
Josh in the City : 2/15/2019 12:20 pm : link
it's drafting the right way to build a team. I'm not trying to knock Barkley right now but that pick was asinine. He could be the greatest RB in the history of the NFL and it's still a bad pick.



LOL. Greatest RB ever - bad pick!

And the smoking gun:


Quote:


The Giants are Obviously Taking a QB
Josh in the City : 3/21/2018 2:07 pm
First of all, take anything you hear in the media with a huge grain of salt. This isn't the Jerry Reese led Giants. Gettleman and Co. understand the importance of secrecy and the advantage it gives the team both leading up to the draft as well as on draft day. How many times in the past decade have teams known who we were targeting and thus jumped ahead of us to grab the player we wanted? Everything we're hearing from the beat writers is b/c that's what the Giants want us (and the rest of the country) to hear.

Now looking at the current state of this team, anyone who thinks we don't take a QB at #2 is completely fooling themselves. This was a 3-13 team last year that is nowhere close to competing for a Super Bowl. Even if you believe Eli has two good years left in him, do you really believe this team has a shot at winning it all in that time-frame? The answer is no.

So if we're not competing for a Super Bowl in the short term, that diminishes the importance of drafting a player who must improve the team immediately. So why are we signing veterans like Jonathan Stewart, Nate Solder etc? Because Gettleman also understands the need to fix the locker room by bringing in leaders, building a true veteran presence, and establishing a winning culture. It's also important to start rebuilding the oline unit both in the short term and then eventually for the future.



This was eerily on point! And wrong!


Quote:



Josh in the City : 3/21/2018 2:20 pm : link

Not really funny b/c it actually validates my point even further so thank you for pointing it out. Pretty sure Dave Brown was picked 17th overall which is exactly where an average team would be picking and exactly why they would be stuck in QB purgatory. Much harder (though admittedly not impossible) to find a franchise QB at pick #17 than it is at #2.



We lost a once in a generation chance to take a QB!!


Quote:


Sure take another year to evaluate Webb (with Eli starting) and forfeit a once in a generation opportunity doing it. That sounds like a smart plan to you?



Isn't this exactly where we would be with Darnold or Rosen??


Quote:


It's actually quite sad
Josh in the City : 3/21/2018 3:37 pm : link
that the masochists on this board would willingly put themselves through QB purgatory again. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.



Umm. You wanted ANYONE but Barkley?? Sounds a lot like you wanted a QB. A franchise one.

I'm confused? You literally just proved my point. I said above, I thought Eli was done and I wanted them to draft a QB. And in NO circumstance did I want them to draft a RB. All those old posts you just re-posted basically corroborate what I said above. I'm actually asking this seriously, do you have a learning disability b/c I'm going to feel bad for making fun of you being slow to catch on.
RE: UConn  
UConn4523 : 9/15/2020 4:43 pm : link
In comment 14973534 Josh in the City said:
Quote:
I agree with you. But he's also been put in about as bad a situation as possible. No oline, no WR's, no TE, and no running game. As bad as our oline is, at least we have some legitimate NFL weapons. Hard to actually evaluate a QB in Darnold's situation.


I don't disagree. But now we can say the exact same about Barkley, no? Better line and this offense takes off - sound reasonable? How good would Jones be with a dominant run game?

If you take a step back I think you will see that it makes a tremendous difference. More teams are heading in this direction, IMO. They want to limit the opponents possessions and since building an elite defense is difficult and costly, controlling clock is the more realistic option.

In sum, there's many ways to win. We can absolutely win with Barkley, we need to hit on a couple more pieces.
You said..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/15/2020 4:46 pm : link
you were right on that take?? How is wanted a QB that could be a complete bust like Rosen, or one who might be mediocre in Darnold a better choice than Barkley? Isn't that the QB purgatory you're talking about??

By the way - your thoughts on Jones:

Quote:
He's fucking horrible
Josh in the City : 4/25/2019 10:57 pm : link
Sorry there is no sugar coating it. Will go down as the worst pick and biggest reach in franchise history. Taking a day 3 guy at 6 overall. Doesn't get any worse. Fire gettleman!


You actually hoped people saved those threads - hey wait you saved them!

Quote:
RE: RE: He's fucking horrible
Josh in the City : 4/25/2019 11:00 pm : link

Essex: I hope someone is saving these

I am. So I can tell you I told you so. HE FUCKING SUCKS!!
RE: RE: UConn  
Josh in the City : 9/15/2020 4:56 pm : link
In comment 14973553 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 14973534 Josh in the City said:


Quote:


I agree with you. But he's also been put in about as bad a situation as possible. No oline, no WR's, no TE, and no running game. As bad as our oline is, at least we have some legitimate NFL weapons. Hard to actually evaluate a QB in Darnold's situation.



I don't disagree. But now we can say the exact same about Barkley, no? Better line and this offense takes off - sound reasonable? How good would Jones be with a dominant run game?

If you take a step back I think you will see that it makes a tremendous difference. More teams are heading in this direction, IMO. They want to limit the opponents possessions and since building an elite defense is difficult and costly, controlling clock is the more realistic option.

In sum, there's many ways to win. We can absolutely win with Barkley, we need to hit on a couple more pieces.

100% agree but that's also the point. You can invest early in a QB and build your team around him. You don't want to do the same with a RB for 2 reasons. 1- by the time you're ready to win you're allocating a large portion of your cap to a position that doesn't have a significant impact on wins/losses and 2- RB's half lives (especially their prime years) are significantly shorter than QB's and other positions. Which is why it's almost always a mistake to draft a RB on day one unless you're team is ready to compete for a Super Bowl.
RE: Barkley ran really good routes year 1  
Jim from Katonah : 9/15/2020 4:58 pm : link
In comment 14973479 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
so I know its there. I think he's playing with the world on his shoulders, is learning a new offense, and was getting crushed behind the LOS. I need to see more before saying he's now a bad route runner - it doesn't seem like a logical conclusion to be had right now.


Agreed that he’s run a lot of great routes in his career here, and hopefully last night’s performance — lots of rounded edge muddling —was just first game rust. Garrett and co are no dummies, I hope they find a way to utilize his gifts.
RE: You said..  
Josh in the City : 9/15/2020 4:59 pm : link
In comment 14973558 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
you were right on that take?? How is wanted a QB that could be a complete bust like Rosen, or one who might be mediocre in Darnold a better choice than Barkley? Isn't that the QB purgatory you're talking about??

By the way - your thoughts on Jones:



Quote:


He's fucking horrible
Josh in the City : 4/25/2019 10:57 pm : link
Sorry there is no sugar coating it. Will go down as the worst pick and biggest reach in franchise history. Taking a day 3 guy at 6 overall. Doesn't get any worse. Fire gettleman!



You actually hoped people saved those threads - hey wait you saved them!



Quote:


RE: RE: He's fucking horrible
Josh in the City : 4/25/2019 11:00 pm : link

Essex: I hope someone is saving these

I am. So I can tell you I told you so. HE FUCKING SUCKS!!


Yep, and right now I admit I was wrong about Jones. But kind of sad you're trying to change the subject now that we've proven you to be completely incoherent and blatantly wrong about!
about  
Josh in the City : 9/15/2020 5:00 pm : link
the actual point of this thread!
RE: The worst argument about a single  
BleedBlue : 9/15/2020 5:00 pm : link
In comment 14973411 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
football player is "well look at the record". LOL.

I can't believe anybody tries to make it.

We drafted one of the best players in the league. He produced at a high level despite awful surrounding talent. Nobody picked immediately after him has been special.

The rest of the top 10 after Barkley:

Sam Darnold
Denzel Ward
Bradley Chubb
Quenton Nelson
Josh Allen
Roquan Smith
Mike McGlinchey
Josh Rosen

You can make the case for QB Josh Allen. That is it.


FACTS. this is the ultimate team game....one player doesnt change that unless your name is pat mahomes and even then, he has a fuck ton of talent around him.

barkley is a stud and a player you build around. unfortunately, we failed to get the OL rebuilt as we missed on some but the line is young, barkley isnt old or anything. we can easily have him on second contract winning games for us once the OL comes together....
Josh  
UConn4523 : 9/15/2020 5:07 pm : link
I simply disagree. I'm not doing this again with you. If our biggest problem is paying Barkley money then its a good problem to have. Take a look at the RB deals that have been signed and get back to me - they are extremely favorable. And we'd be paying him, in theory, after year 3 meaning we'd get plenty of production out of him minus a shitty fluke injury (that players get at almost every position). He wasn't drafted to be a 4/5 year player - his size/build/style have all been carefully investigated prior to making the pick. What you are calling a hinderance has already been factored into his draft grade (same with the contracts). You ignored all my points on this above, so its reasonable to assume you don't want to entertain the possibility that you are wrong.

Its all good though, I'm done on this thread, enjoy your night everyone.
Britt I don't know why you insist on continuing  
NoGainDayne : 9/15/2020 5:09 pm : link
to make this dumb point after I keep showing you this. But you can't say Barkley was worth the #2 pick and not Quinton Nelson.

In 2018 when Barkely was drafted the top 10 RBs had an average salary of $8.4M and the top 10 Gs $11.4M. You are stating something as a fact that the evidence doesn't even remotely support. Dollars allocated to a position is the best measure of value as teams view it themselves.

Many including myself said that you have to build the OL before you take an RB that high, you have to be sure you are ready to win now, that's even IF a RB at #2 is worth it at all, which it is tough to make a general purpose argument for in its own right. People point to Elliot but that really fails at a remotely apt comparison as the difference between the #2 pick and #4 pick is 800 points or the #21 pick in the draft and honestly I'd have had absolutely zero problem with the Giants trading down to #4 grabbing Barkley and extra picks of even 600 value.

People continually excuse these kinds of things situation by situation but the fact of the matter is often hard to see that the Giants actually grasp asset allocation principles.

Anyway quit making the same bad points Britt, at least find your way to new bad points.
Sportrac 2018 Salaries - ( New Window )
Q Nelson not special?  
LBH15 : 9/15/2020 5:13 pm : link
You can make some silly argument about not taking Guards early, but I think the guy made first team All-Pro in his first two years. About as rare as it comes.
RE: Josh  
Josh in the City : 9/15/2020 5:16 pm : link
In comment 14973590 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
I simply disagree. I'm not doing this again with you. If our biggest problem is paying Barkley money then its a good problem to have. Take a look at the RB deals that have been signed and get back to me - they are extremely favorable. And we'd be paying him, in theory, after year 3 meaning we'd get plenty of production out of him minus a shitty fluke injury (that players get at almost every position). He wasn't drafted to be a 4/5 year player - his size/build/style have all been carefully investigated prior to making the pick. What you are calling a hinderance has already been factored into his draft grade (same with the contracts). You ignored all my points on this above, so its reasonable to assume you don't want to entertain the possibility that you are wrong.

Its all good though, I'm done on this thread, enjoy your night everyone.

Saquon is going to want McCaffrey money and someone is going to be willing to pay him that. Do you think he's worth $16 million per year?! The deal will also require ~50% guaranteed at signing. I believe CMC's deal has a potential out after 3 years with a small amount (relatively) of dead money (around $9-10 million). Would I want to give Saquon that contract and then have to pay DJ the following year? Nope, no f'ing way. It's a bad pick any way you slice it. You needed to get something out of his rookie contract and we're going to end up with nothing...not even a sniff of the playoffs.
RE: RE: RE: RE: This is exactly  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/15/2020 5:16 pm : link
In comment 14973426 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14973396 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 14973046 Britt in VA said:


Quote:



And who did you want to pick on draft night? Be honest.


If it's a bad pick, and the alternatives that any fan would have preferred from their couch are also bad picks, it doesn't make the actual pick any less bad. It's not like there aren't players that were taken within a few slots of where we took Barkley that are producing at a higher level right now with less dependency on their supporting cast.

I understand the point you're trying to make, but if we're using "can draft better than Josh would have" as our benchmark for grading DG, I'd say we're maybe being a little too forgiving.



It's not really the alternative being who Josh would pick, but rather the alternatives available for us to pick in general. As KWall just listed, the only real guys that should have been in consideration (in hindsight) are Nelson and Allen.

For Nelson, as I mentioned, that would have been a trade down scenario. Who knows if the value was there for that. For Allen, well, we got our QB the very next year, and personally, I think I like Jones more than Allen but that's arguable.

Any way you slice it, you can't really argue that DG got an elite talent with the #2 overall pick. Now you can disagree on the team building strategy of it, but as far as value for the pick, he knocked it out of the park. You can't as for much more from a top 5 draft pick than what Saquon is.

That's a fair point all the way through. I'd add Bradley Chubb to the list as well, even with his injury. He did rack up 12 sacks as a rookie, and we've been craving any semblance of a consistent pass rush over that same period of time. And I feel wrong even pointing to Allen in that scenario since I was very vocal that his inaccuracy in college was going to make him mediocre at best in the NFL - I've been way off on that one so far.

But you're right about Barkley's talent, and about the way that I feel with regard to the team building aspect of it (lord knows I've certainly repeated it often enough to make most of the board puke).

It's just frustrating not only to see the team continue to suck out loud, but to also know that Saquon is capable of so much more than this roster has allowed him to produce.
And i don’t think Giant fans need a reminder how important Guards  
LBH15 : 9/15/2020 5:20 pm : link
can be to the running game.

Last night should have been enough.
RE: This is exactly  
Ned In Atlanta : 9/15/2020 5:29 pm : link
In comment 14973045 Josh in the City said:
Quote:
what I said on draft night and what I stand by today. Taking a RB at #2 overall is a luxury pick...not a pick you make when you're building a roster. It was a horrendous pick then and it's still a bad pick now. By the time we're able to take advantage of Barkley's skillset he will be off his rookie contract.

And then that brings up the looming debate as to how much of your salary cap you want to commit to a RB (the answer should be not much). Just a brutal pick that was a setback for the franchise.



You also wanted Sam Darnold. You are in no position to be bearing your chest based on Darnolds body of work up until now. It’ll never happen but I agree with the premise, unfortunately
RE: RE: You said..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/15/2020 5:31 pm : link
In comment 14973578 Josh in the City said:
Quote:
In comment 14973558 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


you were right on that take?? How is wanted a QB that could be a complete bust like Rosen, or one who might be mediocre in Darnold a better choice than Barkley? Isn't that the QB purgatory you're talking about??

By the way - your thoughts on Jones:



Quote:


He's fucking horrible
Josh in the City : 4/25/2019 10:57 pm : link
Sorry there is no sugar coating it. Will go down as the worst pick and biggest reach in franchise history. Taking a day 3 guy at 6 overall. Doesn't get any worse. Fire gettleman!



You actually hoped people saved those threads - hey wait you saved them!



Quote:


RE: RE: He's fucking horrible
Josh in the City : 4/25/2019 11:00 pm : link

Essex: I hope someone is saving these

I am. So I can tell you I told you so. HE FUCKING SUCKS!!




Yep, and right now I admit I was wrong about Jones. But kind of sad you're trying to change the subject now that we've proven you to be completely incoherent and blatantly wrong about!


WTF?? Completely incoherent and blatantly wrong??



Let's break this down for you since you aren't grasping it.

You said that picking a QB was a better pick than Barkley. You stick by that. You've even said that the only bad picks were Rosen and Barkley. And you say you've been proven correct. By what metric??

How would drafting Darnold have helped? Barkley is better than Darnold at this point and it isn't even close. But then again - you said Daniel Jones FUCKING SUCKS!! What are you actually right about?
RE: RE: RE: You said..  
Josh in the City : 9/15/2020 5:42 pm : link
In comment 14973613 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 14973578 Josh in the City said:


Quote:


In comment 14973558 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


you were right on that take?? How is wanted a QB that could be a complete bust like Rosen, or one who might be mediocre in Darnold a better choice than Barkley? Isn't that the QB purgatory you're talking about??

By the way - your thoughts on Jones:



Quote:


He's fucking horrible
Josh in the City : 4/25/2019 10:57 pm : link
Sorry there is no sugar coating it. Will go down as the worst pick and biggest reach in franchise history. Taking a day 3 guy at 6 overall. Doesn't get any worse. Fire gettleman!



You actually hoped people saved those threads - hey wait you saved them!



Quote:


RE: RE: He's fucking horrible
Josh in the City : 4/25/2019 11:00 pm : link

Essex: I hope someone is saving these

I am. So I can tell you I told you so. HE FUCKING SUCKS!!




Yep, and right now I admit I was wrong about Jones. But kind of sad you're trying to change the subject now that we've proven you to be completely incoherent and blatantly wrong about!



WTF?? Completely incoherent and blatantly wrong??



Let's break this down for you since you aren't grasping it.

You said that picking a QB was a better pick than Barkley. You stick by that. You've even said that the only bad picks were Rosen and Barkley. And you say you've been proven correct. By what metric??

How would drafting Darnold have helped? Barkley is better than Darnold at this point and it isn't even close. But then again - you said Daniel Jones FUCKING SUCKS!! What are you actually right about?

Dude, stop embarrassing yourself.
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/15/2020 5:48 pm : link
Embarrassing myself? Just in this thread alone you posted:

Quote:
I wanted a QB b/c Eli was finished and it was considered a strong QB class. I personally liked Darnold best but I'm not the talent evaluator so I would have been happy with any of the QB's that year (at the time). The only thing I certainly didn't want was a fucking RB at #2 overall when the team had an absurd number of needs. And clearly I was right (and you're still wrong!).


You were clearly right that a picking Barkley was wrong? You were clearly right that QB was the correct decision? Where the fuck are we today with Rosen? With Darnold?

If you aren't embarrassed in saying that Barkley and Rosen were 100% the wrong picks I don't know what to tell you. One is almost out of football and the other in one of the best at his position. Going on three years of crying over a draft that is done and worse yet, would have sucked even more had we taken one of the choices you wanted.

That's the embarrassment.
RE: LOL..  
Josh in the City : 9/15/2020 5:50 pm : link
In comment 14973623 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Embarrassing myself? Just in this thread alone you posted:



Quote:


I wanted a QB b/c Eli was finished and it was considered a strong QB class. I personally liked Darnold best but I'm not the talent evaluator so I would have been happy with any of the QB's that year (at the time). The only thing I certainly didn't want was a fucking RB at #2 overall when the team had an absurd number of needs. And clearly I was right (and you're still wrong!).



You were clearly right that a picking Barkley was wrong? You were clearly right that QB was the correct decision? Where the fuck are we today with Rosen? With Darnold?

If you aren't embarrassed in saying that Barkley and Rosen were 100% the wrong picks I don't know what to tell you. One is almost out of football and the other in one of the best at his position. Going on three years of crying over a draft that is done and worse yet, would have sucked even more had we taken one of the choices you wanted.

That's the embarrassment.


Sorry but you were wrong on draft night and you’ve been proven wrong 3 yrs later. Investing the #2 overall pick on a RB was a disastrous mistake and nothing you say is changing that unfortunately. Only thing we can hope for now is that Gettleman realized his and your mistake and doesn’t exacerbate it by giving him a big money contract.
You do..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/15/2020 5:53 pm : link
realize that on draft night, I wanted a trade down, right?

But once we picked Barkley, he is clearly a better choice than Darnold or Rosen. And he's a joy to watch. Unless it is three years later and somebody is still bitching about a draft that if it went the way they wanted - would have been worse.

You've actually said that Barkley could be the best RB ever and it would still be a terrible pick. Think about that for a minute if you have any brain power at all.
And Josh..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/15/2020 5:59 pm : link
you miss the point here when you declare yourself right.

If you can't argue that we'd be better off with Darnold or Rosen over Barkley, then you can't say you were right. That's what you wanted to have happen.

Hell, you can't even prove that taking a RB at #2 is a bad move - and you certainly aren't helping the case by saying he could be the best ever and still be a terrible pick. That's just sheer ignorance
LBH5  
KWALL2 : 9/15/2020 6:00 pm : link
You're right about Nelson. He's a great player. But I still take Barkley over him.

BB56 on point with "A lot of things to worry about but SB isn't one of them".

Put a decent OL in front of him and he will shine.

Jones vs Allen? I like Allen but I think Jones will be a better QB over the next 10 years.
RE: LBH5  
LBH15 : 9/15/2020 6:04 pm : link
In comment 14973636 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
You're right about Nelson. He's a great player. But I still take Barkley over him.

BB56 on point with "A lot of things to worry about but SB isn't one of them".

Put a decent OL in front of him and he will shine.

Jones vs Allen? I like Allen but I think Jones will be a better QB over the next 10 years.


I might take Barkley as well straight up between the two, but the play was to trade down from #2 and Nelson would have been a nice prize a few picks further.
Yes  
KWALL2 : 9/15/2020 6:15 pm : link
The better trade would have been up at the bottom of 1 for QB Jackson which is something a few of us liked that year.
timeline  
gridirony : 9/15/2020 6:16 pm : link
Concerning the Giants timeline, it's a broken clock that's right twice a day.

No amount of strategy to get the right players, at the right position, at the right time, will work util you fix the clock. That clock is management.
Timeline?  
PetesHereNow : 9/15/2020 6:22 pm : link
Barkley is 23 years old. He won’t be 24 until next season. There are college seniors now who will be that age.

It is not Barkley’s fault he gets hit behind the LOS on the majority of his carries last night.
RE: Timeline?  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/15/2020 6:40 pm : link
In comment 14973665 PetesHereNow said:
Quote:
Barkley is 23 years old. He won’t be 24 until next season. There are college seniors now who will be that age.

It is not Barkley’s fault he gets hit behind the LOS on the majority of his carries last night.

It might not be Barkley's fault, but the potential wear and tear is going to stack up on his body and his athleticism, not on those whose fault it is.

It's not about blaming Barkley. It is about trying to take advantage of his physical gifts before our dogshit OL gets him killed.
I love how all the talk became Barkley when the guy was getting  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/15/2020 7:07 pm : link
tackled by guys not even getting blocked off the snap more often than not.
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